 So Swiss German would be an option for me English because German As you know that the Swiss don't speak proper German my my six-year-old digital native is Telling people rather proud that his dad invented the fastest internet in Switzerland. It's called fiber 7. I was Thank you When we went to Greece for vacation I was in a in a target conflict because I had to explain him why he couldn't watch YouTube I mean Greece You know, it's maybe a bit difficult But as a matter of fact here in Hamburg, it's not any better I'm next door in the hotel Intercity and they offer free Wi-Fi with 256 kilobit If you want five Mac internet you pay eight euro extra per day So this is where we are in 2015 Few words about me. I married one son as I said to say he was born 2009 and he was able to unlock the iPhone with the age of 17 months. No one showed him how My early Connection with digital techniques was about 1978 when I was playing with these chips as seven four zero zero who knows them raise your hand few thanks Later on I did a apprenticeship as a fair Milde and electronic operatum on their I started to Do IT business about 1991 on the 1996 almost 20 years ago We started with Linux stuff. My first Linux was Sue say 4.2 To in year 2000 we started with in its seven and later on I became president of the Swiss six I association this is Association which runs a internet exchange. I had also my time in the startup calls the two Did some network architecture OTT IP television? Besides I need a hobby. So I'm also politician for the social Democrats in my city parliament already eight years and Then I started with the other hobby five or seven as you know Oh Besides I was also working in the internet expert group of the social Democrats Switzerland and that the internet paper was Adopted earlier these months by the national Delegaton for some long. I don't know what this is in English So buffering socks Ladies and gentlemen. This talk is not about About Deutsche Telecom. It's not about peering. It's not about interconnection It's about these thousands and millions of youngsters out there. We each want to watch YouTube in HD resolution without buffering So let's let's quickly look at the reason why YouTube and all the other video buffers. So it's usually it's it's lack of bandwidth so you if you have a to make DSL or if you have a Intercity Wi-Fi free Wi-Fi with 250 kilobits. So HD video is not possible Sometimes they have old PCs so CPU power is an issue these days no longer relevant Why fee quality sucks? Sometimes this is rather an individual issue and sometimes we have an over subscription Of the shared note mainly in cable networks Streaming source can be too far away if you stream from the US. It doesn't really go well That's why we have so many CDN content delivery network systems Close to the end users Then adaptive streaming is it can be an advantage, but also disadvantage. You cannot turn it off When you watch HD and the connection sucks, you just cannot keep it on HD. It just drops to SD or low resolution. It works. Yes but Claire underwood in low res is not so cool Routing algorithm issues sometimes it's a mismatch of clients and server if you if your client is assigned to the wrong CDN server Then it's also slow Any cost routing is a trick sometimes and last but not least and the most important thing. It's oversubscribed into connections we Go back quickly to the old days the color pays when you call your mother-in-law and You talk with her. Well, she talks to you for 45 minutes and you say hello and goodbye You still pay the call So with YouTube, it's not any different You click YouTube and then YouTube talks to you For hours, maybe on then you say goodbye, basically So is the broadband customer calling the YouTube server or is it vice versa? Is the YouTube server calling the broadband customer? Probably The it's it's the broadband customer who calls But still the data is flowing from the server to the client But the client is causing the traffic because he's requesting the traffic And if you look at the structure of the internet, we have Basically the Pro doesn't work here Red button is dead. Never mind The we have we have the end user to the right And we have he's the provider network The end user is only connected to the providers network On the left side, we have all the content in the internet We have the media and video and streaming on Torrent and you name it But there is always only one way going to the To the end user. It's the yellow marked interconnection points and there is no way around them This basically means The provider can monopolize the end customer at least as long he's connected or subscribed There is no alternative way So this gives the provider a Position of power on the other hand these interconnection points used to be For a long period of time So-called zero settlement interconnections They are basically the foundation of the internet Without zero settlement peering without interconnection the internet wouldn't exist as we know it The broadband provider Mainly the incumbent the ex monopolist or large cable operators They tend to become more and more restrictive to provide sufficient interconnection capacity Not upgrading interconnection To the requirements is very common these days and it's a passive aggressive behavior So the many many providers to name a few do it telecom They just do nothing they just wait Auntie and customer suffering buffering is very common especially during prime time This is basically what the topic of the main topic of these conferences It's a gated community the provider creates a gated community for his own end customers So as I said before the data is flowing from the server from the video server to the end customer It's about 50 times more traffic flowing to the client and The usual traffic ratio we we have For bro bank providers one to five or one to ten so they're pulling about ten times more traffic Towards the end customer Then we have this interconnection policy so they do they don't do anything as I said before they just Oversubscribed the existing interconnection and if you want to upgrade you have to Have a traffic ratio of about one to one dot five to one dot three, but No video stream service can deliver Traffic and also maintain the traffic ratio. No content provider can So they all they can do is they can pay money to get upgraded and if they don't pay data is stuck in in congestion and The clients are suffering and see the The buffering sign Large broadband providers such as the incumbents and cable providers. They want to get paid twice They want they are able to force the money due to the temporary monopoly As I explained and they can ask money from the end customer and on the other hand also from the content This is called double-sided market And if they don't pay the content is not paying. This is what we see and Sometimes as a side note the end customer pays but still sees this But IP would IP interconnection would be cheap The business cost per broadband customers just a few cents per month and if the provider would invest this people would be happy And on top content provider are easy to deal for peering or provide cash servers Etc. So please talk to the come our community fellows of Akamai Apple Amazon Facebook Google limelight Netflix T is not telecom. It's twitch and so too and a lot of others So traffic congestion is costly. I Took a random Google search and was looking for how much traffic is actually costing and The developed show the result staus kosten in Edom household 509 euro per year So my assumption was if traffic jam is costing money Then probably data traffic jam is also costing some money But I Figured that no one was really exploring that field yet. So I thought I'm gonna do a little milk rechnik so When I was a child the milkman came every every morning and We we just put our order into the milk weekly and he put the milk into the Box outside of the house and by the end of the months. We went to the shop and paid our milk Rechnik So so this is my quick calculation. We have about 30 million broadband connections in Germany I assumed that everybody is waiting for one minute accumulated While watching Netflix YouTube, whatever probably this is far too less. Who thinks one minute is fine Or who's think who thinks one minute is not enough. Oh Okay, so let's let's stick with one minute for the calculation and I also assumed that Five euro per hour waiting is is a good good salary So if you think five euro is not enough So you can adapt to the calculation. This is called reservations loan I have no clue what it means, but this was on Wikipedia for time when you Take a job or refuse a job. How much would it would would be the value for the for the spare time? So this is my calculation if you wait one minute per day This is six hours per year if you Calc if you Multiply this with the five euro every broadband customer would be with with 30 We would pay 30 or loss lose 30 euro per year this sums up with 30 million broke unsubscriber to 900 million euro per year this is the economic damage in Germany per year and As we can assume that a Large part of the buffering is caused by the insufficient interconnection especially during prime time when everybody wants to watch Netflix This is also a result of the restrictive peering policy of the Incumbent and large cable operators The ability for them to force some Extra money out of these double-sided market power as I explained they Probably would gain a few millions. I don't I don't have exact figures, but I assume it's probably Some 10 20 30 millions per year. They could they could force through this market power On the other hand we have the damage of 900 million euro per year and I mean this is a Like how do you say that? imbalance So my conclusion in democratic countries like Western Europe the economic gain of a multi-billion company at the expense of the general public is commonly not tolerated and The other then then the next question is basically following my previous the previous talk of Thomas When will the regulators wake up and force every market participant to to cooperative peering and interconnection? because end user is suffering the public is suffering zero settlement peering as I explained is rather common of course the Incumbent the Deutsche Telecom lobbies would tell otherwise, but that's this is clear the unbalanced traffic should no longer be used to refuse peering and Also disputes about interconnection should be resolved rather quick My case against Swiss comm is taking out is taking years already I'm still no end and no light at the end of the tunnel and then last but not least We should have a pro bank providers Be must be committed to the interest of their own end user customer base As I said telecom managed to get paid twice this because of their market power and Other telecoms such as telecom, Mongolia or Swiss come they use the Deutsche telecom and their market power as a leverage to to to Force their also restrictive peering policy and the regulator so far don't do much I quote here mark food or this is the chief of Comcom Switzerland Noor and Fowler regulator is an good regulator Thank you question okay Thank You Freddy and let's have Thomas back up on stage and we're gonna take questions, please There is There's actually more than the mics. I said before there's two right up on the top and there's three in each ale so if you please line up if you any questions ask and Please speak into the mic. We need Your question on tape and those who are leaving now Do it silently, please. Okay first question Wow, yeah over there I have a question for Thomas From your talk it sounds like did a lot of work Can you tell us a little bit about the budgeting that goes in to have a team like that? Yeah So save the Internet as a collision of 12 NGOs Which have all their independent budget? There is no Fixed budget for the work that we've been doing as a whole All of them have transparency reports So I cannot really speak for the budget of of a tree or access the organization where I'm based in Austria Got a grant from the media democracy foundation from 10,000 euros and Money from Netflix 10,000 euro also and we used both for development and paying for the faxes because in the second run of the fax tool The provider that I was referring to was no longer paying Otherwise the funding in general about digital rights in Europe is awfully low So if you compare it to the US where you had double digit millions going into the lobbying it is ridiculous What what resources we have here in Europe? and we are thinking about Making a donation tool for the new safety Internet, but again, that's complicated Because you have 12 NGOs with very different Activity scales like some of them do a lot others not so much So how would you divide the money? These are unresolved questions that we are working on right now if you want to support us with independent funding Then just donate to the individual organizations Idri initiative of a net-freiheit Are probably the ones I would mention most because they have done most of the work access now as well But they generally have a lot of funding from the US. So I don't think they needed that much to summarize I saw a picture of your team. I saw all the work. You did you did that for 20,000 euros No, I never got a set I was paid by Idri for four months when I was working in Brussels with them directly for the first reading But otherwise this was mostly free time. I got my expenses covered for travel But other than that, I'm doing this in my spare time and also now unemployed I work for data protection NGOs that they are allowing me to do a lot of my stuff also for net neutrality We're all elephants. We do it for peanuts Okay, number one. Go ahead. Yeah. Hello. Hi Thomas. Thanks a lot for your work That's great I have a question about the involvement of the business the angels and the companies What is the reason? What do you think why they came so late into this discussion in Germany? And what probably can we do to change this in the future because I think that's a They are great allies in this fight Yeah, that's the awesome exactly the right question Sadly in Europe you have no organized Voice for startups or for SMEs when it comes to digital rights issues And you would have to work with them to get them involved in the debate They were really late to the party and then again mostly activated through US networks so the connection between the civil rights scene here and the business scene particularly the one which is organized in Brussels with European umbrellas is very weak. So everything you can do there to strengthen this connection would be great But I don't have those business contacts I got a few people involved in the first reading stuff But we would definitely need more people that act as multipliers to get more companies involved Particularly now when we enter into a new phase with the barrack guidelines, we no longer lead the loud arguments of Of of many people we need more the arguments from the business side from the universities from those people who run networks These arguments are better suited to make a difference with the regulators because and and to add it at Don't underestimate the influence of the lobbyists of the big names I mean the telecoms and the Liberty Globals They have a lot of money and they try to influence the politicians as good as they can They they don't they do a good job from their perspective You can be sure that the telecoms will have people for all 28 regulators now continuously lobbying for an upcoming 9 months question who isn't our team Okay, thank you. Is there a question from the internet while we're at it? Yes, there's a question it is whether Peering providers should differentiate between virtual private network traffic and public traffic and Is the where is the line between internal internal network and the public internet? What should I say? This is difficult question. I mean basically If you over commit your backbone, then there is always plenty of of traffic or plenty of capacity So there is there shouldn't be any differentiation. It's just Networks should provide enough capacity and then we're good a common a common a Common argument from the big names. Oh, we are investing millions and millions and millions in a broadband expansion but unfortunately they Stop investing right at the end of their own backbone. So they don't invest any money And that would be only a little percentage of the whole of the total investment for the interconnections Okay There is another question at number one Have a question about buffering so the most of the content in the web is delivered over TCP IP and Will change in the media to something like UDP which has lower overhead over TCP IP Will that change the situation? Not really. No, no It won't help. I mean packet losses packet loss regardless whether it's TCP or its UDP Okay, that was a short answer Next question, please please talk into the mic So when I came here this year, I had the impression that at digital subscriber line connections not only the bandwidth is bad, but also the Ping gets up way. Hi, of course. I mean at home I have fiber seven nowadays. So I just thought I got spoiled by fiber connections But I noticed that ping times went up from well from a couple of years ago 60 to 80 milliseconds from Sites in your neighborhood more or less To nowadays 80 to 160 milliseconds. So where's the problem there? well, the latency is directly related if the Provider is not delivering enough bandwidth and ping ping goes up. That's that's a normal behavior of of TCP So the problem is also at the interconnection sites Probably most likely you can find out if you if you do trace route then you see where well there is a A long a long presentation how to interpret trace route properly if you if you look for a Nanoc trace route you should find this lecture But that would probably give some indication All right, thank you. Thank you Next question from the internet just in between and then we'll go back. Go ahead is Netflix a gated community by itself and Are you sure that their interests will align with the movement of net neutrality in the long run? We should differentiate between Netflix content and Netflix interconnections So for the content, I probably would say yes, but I'm not I'm not the expert This would be then layer 7 in the OSI model. I'm talking here on layer 3. This is content agnostic Netflix is they are one of the good guys because they really help to deliver the packets and I know them personally a few a few Fellows from the from the peering community. They are the good guys definitely Just also to ask the discussion for the European debate Netflix was one of the good guys in the US and they also Supported of course the the European movement, but again, they are so big that I wouldn't really trust them as an ally because they could also pay they could also survive in a double-sided market and For them in the growing emerging markets like Europe where they just have started It's probably risky to allow for this new type of anti net neutrality business models but In the consumer side when net neutrality is seen as an end user issue I think so far the interest mostly aligned on an interconnection. They have their own interests, of course So I can say Netflix is definitely paying Deutsche telecom Otherwise, no single Deutsche telecom user would be able to watch any movie on Netflix So okay for sure. We're short for time. So please last two questions one number two first Keep it short. Please talk into the mic We got in your first talk What is the do you have an explanation for the behavior of the European Commission and behave of the? net neutrality debate I especially think of the behavior of we're going to a tinger who We repeatedly said his ridiculously ridiculous with the cause of a net neutrality kills and He repeated it again and again, even if it was Even if there was no reason behind it and Do you have an explanation for this behavior of the Commission and Yonka and this? For that argument, we had this great YouTube video net neutrality kills if you search you'll find it or net neutrality tutored in German That deconstructs this argument of etching up but in general and you can go back to the previous commissioner needed cruise that I showed Our strong suspicion is that the deal was that the telecom industry has to give up a little bit of their profits when it comes to roaming But on the other side to gain a lot of future profits on the abolishment of net neutrality And so it was like okay. We need a populist argument nearly cruise also needs a quick win at the end of her career and This was again like you take a little bit there and put it there for the telecoms industry and etching Is a big industrial favorite guy. He is always for big business Okay short for time last question number one Hi, I'm so what strategy should I speak use when the capacity on the backbone is fully loaded like first in first out Or what is your idea about that? Because the capacity is limited. So when there's so much traffic that everything is stuck upgrade Yeah, invest in the network. I mean, I mean, sorry a tanking port is now some 3000 euro including optic and cross-connect Okay, it's it's not that that much upgrade Okay, thank you