 Good morning, John. So as you can tell by the headphones, the different camera angle, the length of the video, we're doing something a little bit different today. I wanted to take an opportunity to talk to somebody who is a part of this community, watched her first Vlogbrothers video in 2007, and also was just a really amazing person who does a lot of amazing work doing advocacy and activism and strategy and writing. Most recently she was the campaign manager for Julian Castro. She's now working with Elizabeth Warren. I think we're really lucky to have her as part of this community. So I wanted to take a little bit of time to talk to Maya Rupert. Obviously, it's a hard time. So Maya, I guess I'll just start out by asking how are you feeling right now? This is a hard time. This has been a very hard time, even as I feel like I have been someone I've worked in these spaces a lot. And I feel like I have a pretty high capacity for things are going badly. But there's a light at the end of the tunnel and that kind of thing. These last couple of weeks have hit me really hard. And I know they're hitting a lot of people really hard. And so I'm hanging in. I'm taking a lot of solace in the fact that I know a lot of people are feeling this right now and are making community where they can and are being there for each other, which is always the thing that I can take solace in in these moments because that gives me hope that there is somewhere where we're going to go with this. But this is a tough time and this one really does feel different. From the perspective inside of presidential politics at this point, which is a world of its own, I'm sure. Can you give me a little bit of a feeling for what it looks like from that perspective? A lot of leaders right now are looking to what can we put energy behind and what can people be doing? And I think that is helpful. I think that people want to feel right now like there is something to do and ways that they can act. One of the things I'm always sort of struck by when we talk about police violence is that people feel there's the hopelessness that comes with it that I think is understandable. But then there's a piece of hopelessness that I've never quite been able to square because there's this sense of, well, what can we do? So there's only so much that can be done. The thing is that a system that works like this, this was policy that makes it possible for police officers to act in dangerous ways and not be held accountable. So there are policy solutions to it. Sometimes there's kind of a disconnect. I feel like people aren't as conscious of that as they should be. And so I'm really heartened by all the work that people are doing right now to point to policy solutions that are about what can happen, national use of force standards, requiring cops to de-escalate before any kind of fatal force is used. Some of these things that will have huge, huge impacts on these situations sort of moving forward. So I think that this, that we do have a moment sort of from the, from just a political standpoint to, you know, this is what we need to be calling electives, letting people know that this is a priority and making sure that at every level of government, local, state, federal, this is something that people are prioritizing and we're getting folks in office that are going to, you know, take this issue seriously. You and I are about the same age. So we, you know, we're, we've lived through some history at this point. And, but I'm wondering how you feel about the youths right now and if that is a source of any encouragement for you right now. You know, I'm always taken by young people and, you know, how people are activating in, in these moments of crisis. I'm so excited to see how people are looking at this and, and demanding more. And, you know, I think it's, it's always a tough thing, I think, sort of generationally when we're doing movement work or in organizing, I think that there is this, you know, as you, just by nature of how these things work, as you get older, there are more things that you have lived through. You've seen, you've seen things work so differently. And so there is, you know, you're willing to put up with things that younger people aren't, you know, and I think one thing that I always try to encourage people, it's like as you become sort of the older people in the movement, try to, you know, sort of have the humility to recognize that the movement is changing. And as you're the younger people in the movement have the grace to realize that the people who have kind of gone through it are, you know, they're, they just had different formative experiences. So I think I'm definitely at that point of the movement now where I'm asking for, I'm asking for the grace and calling on my humility. But what is, what's, I think, really cool about that cycle is that it means you get to watch this new generation of people who look at this and say, you know, this far no further and we are not compromising. And so I'm really excited that I'm getting to see this generation take this issue on, because it is one that needs that kind of attention, that kind of demand, that kind of sort of unwillingness to compromise. I'm seeing that. I'm seeing that a lot. I'm seeing that with the folks that have taken to the streets. And it's weird because there's an urgency to it. And I really, I have a lot of faith in this generation of organizers to, to really make sure that as much as this moment feels different, that this actually can be different this time. So you've worked inside of government a lot, and you've seen politics functioning, you've seen government functioning. There are things that are broken about this. But of course, I think the response to that can't be like, okay, well, let's abandon it then. Let's continue to hobble it. Let's ignore it. Let's, like it has to be fix it. So how do we fix it? Well, I think a piece of it is, it's, it's, it's people, it's people getting involved. You know, it's people being involved for the right reasons. The people right now who are having this be one of their formative political experiences. They are going to be qualitatively different types of leaders because seeing something like this and having that be the thing that sparks, I want to make change. So I think that, you know, folks that, you know, if you are called to want to do something better in a moment of crisis, like go run, do something, get involved because if that's the thing that sparks your interest in making things better, you are one of the people we want making things better. I think beyond that, there are things about our politics that are broken because, because there is, I mean, to put simply, there's a sort of a cost to entry, right? I mean that at any time there is a system where if you have resources, your problems get greater attention. And if you don't have those resources, your problems get de-prioritized, we are not out of a system that is best equipped to deal with the issues that impact the most of us because most of us do not have those kinds of resources. We have to fix what is, I think, a baseline issue and that is that our politics are way too consumed by who can get money into the system and therefore have their issues looked at first. And there's obviously campaign financial reform solutions kind of everywhere, but I think acknowledging that is a big part of what we need to do. I also think we have to step away from this idea that, you know, I was, what I was kind of saying before that, you know, when we talk about issues like racial justice that we are talking about, sort of, issues that only are relevant to communities of color and, and as a result, they can sort of be pushed off to the side. I think that one of the tough things about a moment like this is that we're talking about policing, but we're also talking about a system of white supremacy and we're talking about, you know, sort of just a very fundamental difference in the ways that people interact in the society and how they feel protected by the society and based on race. And we have conditioned ourselves to think of that as such divisive topic that we don't even want to sort of talk about it until we're confronted with something like this. And then we are almost surprised that we are not super good at talking about it. We give ourselves no practice. And then biggest things happen and people are awkward around it or people say the wrong thing or people, you know, and, and, and look, there are just some people that obviously there are some people who do not care and are, are not worried that they don't know what to say in this moment, but I'm not really thinking about them. I'm more thinking about the folks genuinely are, see a moment like this, feel the helplessness, you know, white folks who maybe haven't been as conscious of some of this stuff and are having their eyes open, but they kind of don't know where to go and they don't know where to start and they don't want to say the wrong thing. So they don't say anything. And it's red different. You know, so I think, I think we've created this really weird crack wire around the way that we approach and talk about race, that we only talk about it in moments of crisis when the temperatures are already so high. And the only people that feel 100% comfortable talking about it are people that like study it and write about it and talk about it and people who don't care how they sound talking about it. And so basically it is people who are racist or don't care about sounding racist, talking to people who make this their career to talk about. And that's our nationalization around race. And so I think some of it is almost just letting ourselves, challenging ourselves to have the awkward conversations. I think it goes back to this question of grace. I think people can come in good faith and sort of get grace in return. I think that people, I think that some of these conversations can get a lot more comfortable and a lot more common. It doesn't mean they're going to get, I mean, it doesn't mean they're not going to be awkward because they are and they're going to be tough and they're going to be courageous conversations you have to have with people. But I do think that we have to approach it as this is, it's a necessity. We can't wait until it's this to engage in it at all. And I'm just, I'm realizing more and more how much that still happens. You know, because it is such an important and big thing in our society, I think it is important to be curious about it, engage with it. Because I think that like, you can't help if you're not at all informed. And you also can't be like, okay, the first step of me helping is to place the burden on someone else to help inform me. But like, you know, like you can't interface with anything if you don't know about it. And so I think that that learning process is really important. It should be a bigger part of our education system. But it should also be a part of what we do as, as like citizens, like it should be just something that we feel, you know, is part of, you know, not even necessarily just an obligation, but but something that we should be passionate about. What you just described is, I think, one of the tensions that lies at the core of this, it's that there are people who want to learn. And their immediate thought is, Oh, well, I'll just I'll ask someone because that you know, we do that with a lot of things in life. So I'll ask someone who seems to know about this. And then immediately that that right that that puts a burden on someone else. Sometimes that is a burden that people are willing to take on. And sometimes it's not. Yeah, no magic ingredient is when that happens. And so I think a safe way to do it is, you know, people always say, Well, Google and read. And I think that that's great advice. And I understand why that's people's advice. But I also appreciate that it's not like this stuff is super accessible. If you genuinely are like, I need to start, you know, some sort of from, from ground zero, I think there are our books out there that try really, really hard to do that. There's a book called So you want to talk about race that I think is incredible and does a really good job. I think from a let's meet people where they are standpoint, but I don't think every book or article about racial justice starts from a standpoint up. I mean, when you are regardless of your level, there's a disconnect there that I think we have to acknowledge that sometimes we are saying, we want people to learn. And that means that there are people who are curious and don't quite know where to go with that. And so again, it's, I mean, I think it, I think it varies. But I also think that, you know, a big way to handle that is having diverse friends because if you hang with people and have already have emotional ties and a trust level and they know that your intentions are good and you ask them questions, people are going to be more willing to take on that burden. They're going to be more willing to give that grace. They're going to be more understanding of, you didn't get the vocabulary quite right, but I knew where you were going. But I think that that it's sort of, it's kind of a chicken and the egg thing because it is way too easy for friends to be segregated, especially the white folk. And then for people to kind of look around and say, oh, wait, I don't have anyone I'm close to, I can ask about this. Let me ask this random person. And that's when, and that's when there's the bigger thing. So I mean, it's tough, but it feels like it's sort of the answer really does seem to be community. It's closer connection because we can do that. One thing that we do every year here is we have a census that we run and I usually analyze it before now, but haven't because things got busy this year. We ask a question about race in that census. I think that you were probably aware coming into this conversation that the majority of the audience would be white folk. So thinking about that and sort of introducing this topic maybe to people who have been really apprehensive about it or really genuinely are coming at it from a good place, but feel very anxious because it's a completely understandable thing to be anxious about. One thing that I see is two bad reactions to the concept of privilege. One is I definitely don't have privilege. I have all these hard things in my life and so that's fake. And the second is like I have privilege. I feel guilty about it and I will then move through my life with guilt, but no like positive anything on the other side of that. It's like, oh, so I've been given this negative emotion and I will just carry it around and then do all my normal things. I am very resistant to the idea that what you have is something to feel ashamed of because I just think that we're all sort of like in the situation that we're in, but I heard Baratunde Thurston say this week in a podcast that it's not like everybody goes around and says to Superman like stop using your power. They say use your power for good stuff. And so that really resonates with me that this is about what you have and what you have isn't about how you should feel about what you have. It's about what you should do with what you have. So with that in mind, what should we do with what we have? I really, I love that framing. And I think you're right. I mean, there is, there is like a knee jerk when you recognize you have privilege, like a sense of like, right, it's like you feel bad, you feel like woven. And I think it's really important to work through that because you're right. I think that the other side of that is if I feel guilty about something, I want to hide it. I don't want you or be angry or lash out or like shame is a terrible emotion that no one wants to feel. Yeah, absolutely. And so working through it and acknowledging it and saying it out loud and I think that that's important, you know, it just sort of in and of itself because I think you're right just having that shame. It's such a that is it's so destructive. But then, right, there are so many things that come from that. The recognition of white privilege in these conversations means that there are conversations that would be easier for you to have them for me to have. No matter how many times like I talk about race a lot, I write about race a lot. I tend to be a pretty effusive, friendly person. I try really hard to say, I'm still me when I'm talking about race, but inevitably, as soon as I start talking about race, there is there's more defensiveness that I feel than if I were just talking about, you know, something fun and yeah, or something that people just want to talk to me. It happens. And there's and I feel like I've gotten to a point where there's no amount of like, I want to be super accessible about it that is going to completely relieve that because as soon as it's coming from me, there is an assumption of, OK, I've got to say the right thing and I don't know as much so I can't say anything and everything else that comes along with that. Because of that, I pay a bigger penalty for bringing that kind of stuff up. One of the things that white privilege is incredibly useful at doing is helping to talk about some of the issues that people of color can't bring up. And so being the one to talk about this, taking a platform that you have and elevating work that's being done and voices and stories that wouldn't otherwise get that platform, acknowledging that there are ways that privilege contributed to an ability to build a platform and therefore will bring the next folks up. That kind of stuff is so valuable and it's so important and it's only going to come if people feel comfortable saying, yes, I have had privilege. That has helped me. I am going to make sure that I use that and help other people. I mean, I think it's a lot. There's a lot tied up with it, but this idea that if you acknowledge privilege, it means you're somehow undermining yourself. You haven't worked hard. That it's like it's either or that it's like you did it 1000% by yourself or privilege is the only reason you are here versus here and getting to, please. My thought was that you're saying like if you're recognizing your privilege that you're somehow hurting yourself, you're saying like, okay, I have privilege and so I'm going to start succeeding less or something. I see people who think that, but to me it's like helping people is the best part of being successful. It's like being able to meet people who are amazing and be like, people should pay attention to this great person and it's also like it's well known psychologically that helping other people makes you happier than helping yourself and so it's like why wouldn't we do it? Of course our brains don't think that, but that's how we react. There's this fairly famous study that if you give somebody 50 bucks and you say spend it on yourself or you say spend it on someone else that at the end of the day they would all prefer to spend it on themselves, but at the end of the day they're happier when they spend it on someone else and so like being mindful and aware of that and also like having had that experience a number of times I know it is true even if it doesn't feel intuitive all the time. So to me it's like oh like this is so wonderful that like I have an opportunity to use a power that I have because that's really what privilege is, is its power. Should be thinking more about that, how to use that because like it makes me happier and it makes the world better and like those are the two things I want. It's true and I also think I mean you know I think it's important to acknowledge that people who don't have privilege in some ways have privilege in other places right? I have an awful lot of privilege as a straight cis person right like that is that and we have the sense of you're either privileged or you're not like it's binary right and so in different settings I'm the one who can say wait a minute there's something I can bring up here that like my queer friends couldn't or I can be the one to call out ableism because as an able body person it's easier for me right? So I think that acknowledging that around race conversations yes I'm going to rely a lot more on my friends, my white friends who want to act in allyship and bring this stuff up when I can but there are going to be rooms where I absolutely have that ability to do it and so I also think that helps us sometimes because again if you conceptualize it as you have it or you don't that makes it way too easy to buy into this model of somehow it makes me less than or you know that it's it really is situational and like I think it's important that we talk about that. My last question here for you is what's making you hopeful right now? I will say again you know watching the young people who are are leading this fight is is incredibly incredibly inspiring it makes me feel like you know there are people who are seeing this and are having that spark awakened in them and so you know you know this becomes sort of the issue that our movement is taking up that leaders are taking up like I think that that's that is going to be huge. I am seeing more of these conversations you know I've gotten a lot of people who've reached out to me um in you know in these moments who I you know these are our friends that I have I have strong relationships with who have texted and done that you know I want to check in how are you feeling but have gone further than that I've said you know I'm raising kids and I don't know how I should be talking about this but I know that I I haven't talked to my white kids about this and I know that peers who have black kids are already having to have these conversations so much you know what do you think what should I be doing what should I be saying and I'm I'm so grateful that it's like okay people I mean people want to do this I think that there is there's so much power in just being willing to say huh I hadn't thought about that before and like there's again there's vulnerability there because there's the obvious part of like well how lucky am I that I never had to think about it and you could get stuck in that but instead people are actually reaching out and trying to do something different I'm seeing a lot more of the Facebook posts where people and and my absolute absolute favorite thing is for people when they say like hey listen if if you're having this moment right now and you're hearing people say black lives matter and you think to yourself well all lives matter DM me one of the I think hardest things about yeah yeah yeah that's great it's it's and it's so critical because here's the thing you get on social media and you're like if you're thinking this unfollow me if you're thinking this I'm gonna say you know you're gonna get a lot more likes and engagement and there's something really satisfying about just unfollowing the family member who always says the wrong thing or who you know like there's you get satisfaction from that and you get external validation from it but the actual helpful conversation is one that you can only have until because it's the conversation where you say you know what actually I used to think this or I've actually had to like I've had moments like this and you make yourself vulnerable so this person makes themselves vulnerable back and you can actually get to somebody in a way you couldn't if yeah it's changing my based on an argument on someone's timeline on Facebook right publicly performatively so that everybody's looking at it and you can't show any weakness yeah exactly it's and right it undermines every single thing that would be valuable about this conversation you can admit huh I hadn't considered that well you can't do that you can't over DM you can't over phone calls and so that I think is so much of what we say when when when there's a sense of like go get your people like the goal there is not go excoriate on social media your people the idea is you I and I think look again I do I it's it I get it even from a standpoint that has nothing to do with external validation it feels good to have somebody say something awful and you to slam the door in their face there's something sad about that but it's not helpful and I think that's one of the tough things to remember about being an ally is that on some level it sucks like it's not supposed to be easy it's doing a lot of the hard work it feels good because you know you're doing the right thing not because in a moment it's satisfying it you're actually supposed to do the stuff that makes you a little uncomfortable and that gives an inch and lets that person come in enough and then say look I get it and here's how I got here because that's the competition that stays with them and so I'm really I've been really really excited every time I see that kind of stuff because I know that the real work has to happen behind the closed doors and it doesn't get the likes and it doesn't get the retweets but it actually might be the thing that stops someone from saying it the next time or that has someone think twice the next time they're in a situation well uh this has been a really wonderful conversation I appreciate you doing it also thanks for chatting with me offline a bit this morning um so it's great to talk with you uh what was your first vlogbrothers video I saw the harry potter song deathly howl wow yes wow yes he's been a nerd the whole time I see what I really have been it was so funny too because I remember I saw it because it was it was it was featured on youtube's like home page I was not like a youtuber I did not know about this whole community I saw this I was oh it was 2007 no one did thank you thank you for that because we're gonna now pretend like I definitely know so much now you're really in now I'm like I don't know I remember and it was there and I like sent it to my sister and then I just saw that like you guys were doing this thing and I have a sister I'm very close to and so I'm always really excited when siblings are doing stuff together I remember just going back and just I was so and have remained and this very genuinely true I have remained so impressed by this community that has been built because so much of what we were just talking about is people seeking out community and trying to have some grace and trying to have some humility is not always that doesn't always have a very natural home online um and I really I really saw it here you know like I I don't myself sort of make videos or anything but I remember there was a period of time when people would make their own videos and share them and I felt this very like you all had cultivated and brought together a group of people who genuinely seem to want to just do good things together and I've loved that I loved the idea of the projects and like there's a charity now because you know what I mean like that I was so I've just been so consistently warmed by that and have always just been a big fan so I'm so grateful that you that you reach out and so happy to have this conversation oh thank you so much uh and I'm so grateful that you're doing all of the work you're doing I'm grateful you're a part of this community but uh also other communities and all the stuff you're doing to help uh to help make the world a bit of a better place um where can people find you I'm on Twitter I'm uh oh no I'm my every foot on Twitter I think I'm the same on Facebook so you're not on you're not on TikTok yet I had interns teach me TikTok I did I wish we had saved the outtakes because it was me just consistently not understanding the vehicle at all oh my god yeah this is I I feel like my social media is limited but I opt in and yeah on Twitter well thank you so much Maya John I'll see you on Tuesday if you want to check out so you want to talk about race the book she was talking about that's linked in the description also eight can't wait.org the number eight can't wait.org it's a fantastic resource makes it easy to understand how to start or continue work in advocacy trying to get some things changed