 Ms. Melania Montbelli, colleague at the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, and to you and to those joining us at home, I say a special good evening to each and everyone. At this time, as we normally do, I ask you to join me in a word of prayer. We ask Councillor Jackie Trim to lead us at this time. Let us all take a posture of prayer. Father God, we thank you for today. We give you praise, we give you glory and acknowledge you as our God, our King and our Creator. As we have come by here to discuss this legislation, Father God, you have given us law to keep us, to guide us and to protect us. And as we have come by here to discuss this new bill, I pray that your Holy Spirit will guide us, inspire us and draw us to conclusions that will draw us closer to you and help us to become a better nation. I thank you and I praise you for answering our prayers with thanksgiving in our hearts and prayers in our lives. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Thank you so very much, Councillor Trim. At this time, I would like to welcome Councillor Jim, Jim Joseph, to give us some brief remarks. Put your hands together for our Councillor. Thank you, Councillor Steele. Good evening, everyone. I'd like to adopt the protocol that has already been established. Tonight is a very important night for us. It's historic, I would say, in a sense, in that we are getting the opportunity to develop the framework and the groundwork for something which is of immense importance and will redown to making a significant difference in the lives of the persons who we want to serve. It will give us the opportunity for us to empower persons to be able to make decisions at a constituency level, at community levels, and to be able to get proper representation from councils in the various districts around St. Lucia. As we seek tonight to understand what it is we are here to do, we will hear about the way the organisations will be established through the setup of municipalities and districts, and also we'll get to understand what municipal authorities, municipal corporations and district authorities, as we go through the presentation tonight, we'll get to understand the new process which will be implemented where councillors are appointed and also elected, and you, the people on the ground, will have a say in determining who will represent you at a council level, and this is something which will have significant importance. It also will get to establish and define how councils are set up, what are the revenue streams, what powers lie within the corporation and also the district authorities, and also what are the structures that are in place, and what checks and balances we put there to ensure that there's accountability, transparency, that we have the type of fair representation that does not just look at equity, it doesn't only look at things dealing with the way we serve the people, but it looks at justice for all, and I think this is something that we really want to do. At the end of the day that we are looking out for marginalized persons, that we make sure that everybody is served and that there's fair representation. I think one of the things that this will allow us to do is to be able to provide a better service delivery to the residents of the communities and also to be able to report to central government and to ease some of the burdens on central government. So it really is an exciting time tonight. I welcome those of you who are here in the crowd tonight and those of you who are joining us online. We will have a segment later on where you can pose questions to the panel and they'll be able to answer some of the questions, but tonight is not just about us presenting the bill to you, but we are here today to get feedback from you because at the end of the day, it is what you want, it is you providing to us the guidelines as we look into the bill and decide how it needs to be amended, what it is we need to add to the bill, what is it we need to include, not just thinking about the current situation but looking at the long-term effects and crafting the bill in such a way that it caters for our future needs. So I just want to welcome you and I thank you for being here tonight and we look forward to a healthy discussion and we'll be taking the points that you will be giving tonight and making sure that it is given consideration in the drafting of the final piece of legislation which will be taken to cabinet. So I thank you very much. Thank you so very much, councilor. At this time, I'd like to introduce you to the head table. Well, my name is Yasmin Steele. For those who may not know who I am, my duty this evening is to basically moderate this discussion and to ensure that we hear from you, also those joining us live and you sit at her, your feedback as we continue to discuss this bill. So my nearest left is my colleague, Ms. Melania Montbelli. She is charged this evening with actually taking the pointers, the questions, the concerns as we continue to discuss this bill. So her duty this evening is just to journal as much as she can this evening. Immediately next to her, to her left is Mrs. Keisha Attil. Mrs. Attil, as I did highlight, she is our local government officer for the south and she's also charged with heading the committee who is now bringing this bill to the communities to discuss it and also to edit and to present it to cabinet. So she heads that committee. Immediately to her left, as you would know, he's no stranger to us. He is the minister of housing and local government, the Honorable Richard Fedrick. This bill falls under his ministry within his purview. So certainly policy directions we will be taking from the minister. So he's here as well on the panel. Immediately to his left, last but by no means least is our Permanent Secretary, Dr. Kadelea Lane Ambrose. She's here to give us her full assistance as she mans the ministry which this bill falls within. She will also be giving us some technical support as well this evening. So this is your panel head this evening that will be more than happy to present this bill to you and to also receive some feedback. At this time, permit me to allow the Honorable Richard Fedrick to greet you with some remarks as we usher in this bill and we give you some more information and hopefully have a healthy discussion this evening. The Honorable Richard Fedrick. Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I literally beg you to accept that protocol has already been established. I have been doing a lot of talking lately. I'll have a lot of talking to do next week. We are having the budget debate and of course tomorrow is your fateful Thursday. I have some talking to do as well. So I'm trying to see the voice. I'm trying my best to see what is absolutely necessary. Not even I love you. I could tell my partner these days. Voa Pala. You know, folks, this bill that we are working on is one of utmost consultation. It is no imposition. It is something that we are dialoguing as a group, as a team and then to come up with what is best suited for us as a people. You see, there are many laws that come about through the norms that people have embraced and policy direction in my view as a member of government is best formulated when you speak to the people who are affected by whatever policy decisions you seek to implement. I may have my personal views on an issue but does that mean that is what the wider public would embrace? And that is why I don't think it is right for any government to impose whatever it desires unilaterally on people without the relative consultation. So tonight we are here. And from the time I was first equipped with such ministerial authority, notwithstanding I had the ministry responsible for the appointment of counselors. I was of the view that participation at a community level can always lead to maximum cooperation. You see, when people see you as elected, I do believe their ability to militate and to subscribe to the values that you attempt to manifest. You would be much better poised if you were selected by the very same people who selected the or who elected rather the district representatives. I have a lot of personal views. Local authorities basically are the custodians of all government assets within the jurisdiction that those assets find themselves. Tax laws may tell you that when you collect money on behalf of government, it ought to be paid to the Treasury. If you ask me my personal view, I cannot have the Bruce Lee Town Council overseeing the operations of this resource center. Whatever revenues derive them from is paid into the Treasury. And when they have to pin the building, they have to go and beg for money. I do believe in that. I believe that it is time we do things that make sense. It makes absolutely no sense that I, as a constituency authority, generate hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I have an urgency. I have to go beg the PS. Where can you get funds to assist me? This situation, in my view, needs revamping. When you look at Bruce Lee, and again, folks, I'm personalizing here. This is not, I repeat, it is not any authoritative statement coming from the government. You have occupancy taxes. You have all those taxes being collected in Bruce Lee. Many of the hotels are in Bruce Lee. But yet, Bruce Lee is not adequately covered with council workers. There is a gross disparity. And those are the kinds of things that we need to look at. Obviously, I don't have the mantle of authority to say that tomorrow we can do this and we can do that. It is as a government, we take a policy direction, or we institute policy to ensure that those inequalities do not exist. Because my view is, and there is an old phenomenon that goes, too much is given, much is expected. When people come to Rodney Bay or the marina, they expect to see those places squeaky clean. That's what they expect. To risk having, let me say, netwaila. But how can you have that same council with the same amount of team members with one that has absolutely nothing of the likes to do? So it is that kind of inequality that we need through legislation, ensure that we militate against. So we are here to listen to your views. There is no finality on anything tonight. But it is a question of us embracing your ideas, listening attentively, taking notes. At the end of the day, we put the figures together and we go with what the majority sees to cabinet with a view of influencing policy that goes in the direction of what the majority of St. Lucians want. So like I said, I mean, sometimes what day was that? The PS called me, Mr. Minister, we have a problem in Grozily. And she told me what the problem was. And I had to tell her, look, those kinds of things have to be settled through the law. Only when was it yesterday we were at a pre-budget meeting? And I could say this here tonight. I called up the district rep responsible for Grozily baby. And I said to him, baby, my conscience has asked me to call you because I believe we need to increase your council workers one way or the other. So it is a situation where we know what needs to be done, but we do have the way with all. We are not equipped with the tools. We are not equipped with the legislative support. We are not equipped with what we want to have, get done what we want to get done. But with your assistance, your blessings, your cooperation, and obviously, your participation, we can formulate ideologies, put the ideologies on paper, formulate policy to be taken to the lower and upper houses of parliament for ultimate enactment as the legislation. With this, I thank you. Thank you. The Honorable Richard Fedrick, certainly we understand how important tonight's discussion is and how much power we can have to enact so many things in our various communities. So once again, the local authorities bill is so important to each and every one of us around the island and the various communities. So at this time, I'm sure we want to know a little more about this bill. We want to know what are the features of the bill. We have circulated, and they are on our website. They're on the Can I Help You page. They're on the Office of the Prime Minister's Facebook page. It's on the Ministry of Housing and Local Government page. For those joining us that did not have an opportunity to read it, please feel free to go and have a read and always feel free to let your various town councils know your feedback. But at this time, I'd like to call Mrs. Keisha Attil with a presentation that will give us a little more information. Please welcome Mrs. Attil. Thank you very much, Mr. Steele. I will beg for your indulgence this evening. My voice is not the strongest, so I'm hoping that we can take this presentation and you can all hear what I'm saying. Can you hear me, at least? OK, wonderful. Maybe I should go closer to PS. Better? No, I'm good. OK, so good evening, everyone, again. My name is Keisha Attil. I am a local government officer within the ministry. And we are going to have a look at the bill. But before, I know there are some persons who may not know what local government is about, may just know about the council, or maybe just the council workers. And they don't know what local government is presently where it has come from and where we want to take it. So in terms of the history of local government, we inherited it from our colonial, the British system. So they brought in local government. At that time as well, we had elections of persons on the council board. There were various services that the local council would have, for example, the payments of house, land taxes, garbage collection, sanitation, and road repair. So these are some of the things that used to be under the local council pre-independence. We had the Cassiocity Council, and the councils were called town and village councils. And these town and village councils, we had grocery, repair, Beaufort Souffre, and then we had the village councils, which was Miku, Lab, Rishua Zell, and Slurri, Canaries, and Dennery. Post-independence, the department or the ministry at the time would recognize that after the 1979 independence, there were no elections. The legislation changed. And so they decided that they needed to change the legislation to improve local government. At that time, many of the services that were under local government were absorbed through ministries. So we'd have Ministry of Infrastructure. We'd be taking care of the road. Solid waste would be taking care of the garbage. And a lot of the responsibilities of local government started to do into, which included the fact that counselors were not elected. So we had several consultations. We had a green paper. Until in 2011, we got a draft bill. After that, we got some funding from Carrie-Lead in 2015, which gave us a draft bill that we could implement in the country. And this is the draft bill that we are presenting now. I know you're here in 2015, and we're in 2023. However, that shows how much consultation and how much importance that the government's successive governments have placed on local government to ensure that we get it right. Next, please. Slide before. So presently, we are governed by an act. And that is the 2012 Act. That 2012 Act was placed after we had a few issues with the operations of council. But this act was just supposed to be a temporary measure so that we could have more consultations, so we could have gotten an act that is more encompassing. So with this act, all mayors, chairpersons, and counselors are appointed. And we have, well, one city council, which is Cassory City Council, but it encompasses the four constituencies that surround the city. So Cassory's North, Cassory's East, Cassory's South, and Cassory's Central. And we also have the three municipalities. So that didn't happen. We did not have municipalities prior to the 2012 Act. But we decided to elevate the councils. And this is why you have mayors. So you have a mayor in Grozile, Souffre, and Vufort, and the mayor in Cass Trees. And you also notice that, as opposed to the electoral boundaries, ancillary and canneries are separate councils. So it's not ancillary canneries as in the political jurisdiction, but it is separate. So let's go into the draft local authorities bill. Is there a slide before? OK, so we're just going to go through the parts of the bill. And I'm hoping that persons did have a chance to at least browse through the bill. If not, you can still download it if you have internet access and go through it as we are having our discussion right now. So part one, we're looking at how we will establish the local authority. The part two are the functions and powers of the local authority. Then we're going to look at the councils, whether it's going to be a council or a local authority. Then we're going to look at elections. And I think as we've been going around with our consultation, this is what has been the big tickets and the biggest discussions as to whether we are ready or whether we want to see electoral, elected local government in St. Lucia. Then we're going to look at how the councillors will be composed. Then we're going to look at the various officers and meetings, finance for the local councils, committees within those councils, and any other business or any other thing that may pop out from the bill that we believe is significant for this tonight's presentation. Next, please. Back. Slide before. Slide before. OK. OK, so the key areas, which we mentioned before, the establishment of the bill, elections, officers, and finance. So we can move on. OK, we can move to the next slide. OK, so like I said earlier, our 2012 act speaks to constituency councils. And these constituency councils are based on the political lines, the electoral lines. So you vote for in a grusy constituency, and therefore the constituency becomes a grusy constituency council. However, if you remember what I said in the history, it was traditionally the town council. So the question we were asking is, should we revert? And I think some of the councillors here and the mayor would understand some of the issues, particularly with finance that the councils are going through. And we're asking, based on what you're getting now, based on the allocations you're getting now, based on the support that you're getting now, should, when this bill is passed, it be reverted to a town council as opposed to a constituency council? And grossly was chosen significantly so that we could illustrate how difficult it is for a council to operate in a constituency. This is one of the largest constituencies with one of the most diverse population, different financial backgrounds, and so forth. And you ask yourself, how is it that a council can meet the needs of each and every person? And I've been in local government for a long time. So I know that the council is inundated with being responsible for every single constituency. Now I'll give you a little bit of history because I've been there in a little bit of the old legislation and coming into the new. And when we changed from town and village to constituency council, the pressure went up. The finance went down. So I know very well. So I think here it's significant for us to ponder and truly reflect on how is it that the council can serve the constituency? So when we're looking at the bill, and we'll get to those questions as we get to the question section, but I need you to focus on that one. Sometimes as well, we have some constituencies who are better able, not because they're larger or smaller, but they're better able to develop themselves. But because of the 2012 act where everybody is on the same level playing field, they cannot develop as they want. So do we now determine the jurisdiction that the council falls under by the potential of that council, the potential of that jurisdiction? Next please. So our proposed structure of the bill is that we will retain the municipalities of the 2012 act. But Castries City Council will be considered a corporation, and then we'll have Grozile, Viewfort, and Souffre to be municipalities. So it's the same thing. However, we want to ensure that they're given the jurisdiction, given the power and the authorities will get that in later slides. That is due to the potential of that constituency. Minister was saying earlier, look at all these taxes that you are sitting on. And one time somebody said that a few years ago, the mayor cannot even buy a bottle of water. Sometimes, well, now too. OK. And then we're going to districts. So we have the municipalities and we have the districts. Now in one of our consultations, one constituency indicated that they believe they should be in a municipality. I will say it's library. Library felt that they have the bank, they have the jetty, they have the different assets. So why is it that they are put in the same category as other councils, which they perceive do not have what they have? So I know we've been going around and I know other constituencies, there will be the push-pull as to where should they fit? Where should they fit? Should they be a municipality or a district? OK. Now presently, Caster City Council has their own act. Right 2019, Caster City Council had their own act. However, in the review of that 2015 bill, it encompasses Caster City Council within it. Now this question we did ask Caster City Council when we had the consultation. Should you be separate and have your own act and govern yourself? Or should we now encompass you within that one act so we do not have contradictions? If the minister has to check on something, he has one act there, one act there, he has to balance and so forth. But presently, Caster City Council does have their own act. But if you notice the year 2019 versus 2015 that bill was drafted, we're asking whether that is something that they should have under the main umbrella of that legislation. OK, so under the bill, these are the critical functions that have been listed there. However, I know very well that councils do much more than that. Sometimes they're the murder of sorrows and everybody wants something and you come to council. The council doesn't have money, but they get it done. And then when they get it done, people think they have money. But it doesn't work like that all the time. So some education, environmental health, management of the public assets, our HRDCs and so forth, recreational areas, the park, open spaces. And local economic development. And I will pause for a second and speak to local economic development because this is live and we're not just speaking to Grozile. But Grozile is one of the constituencies which you can demonstrate local economic development at Grozile Street Friday. This is where the people have led economic development in the constituency where everybody can benefit. Suffer with their foundation, local economic development. You add natural assets, your sulfur springs, your park, your nature park. You use these natural resources and then you get employment for the people. So it's something we want to encourage in every single constituency. Look at the potential within. I always say that sometimes persons look at things and they have to see the potential. It's only when you see the potential you make money. Somebody may have an abandoned park, you clean it, you develop it, you put two slides, everybody's there now. They come there, they need something to drink, they buy from the vendor. They come there, they see, they want something to eat, a restaurant pops up. People are employed, you get local economic development coming out of that. Okay, so elections. Next please. In 2016, we had gotten very far with this bill. It had gotten to cabinet level and cabinet had already deliberated and decided as to how the elections have gone. Now if persons here are very politically savvy, you can know what happened in 2016 if it happened. If this happened, let's say this happened in January, you know what happened later in 2016. The government changed and therefore when the government changed this, although it was a cabinet decision, the bill had not reached parliament and therefore the instruction was again to go back to the table and have consultations and look at the bill again, particularly for elections. Now, the first question, maybe we should just defer elections. We had many persons who were for that view. Excuse me. I'm good. Because some persons just felt comfortable being appointed. It's easy to be appointed. You come, you do what you have to do and you leave. Some persons did not want to face the ballot. They did not want to become persons who run for elections. Then based on the bill, it says that elections are proposed, thank you. Elections are proposed for every three years. Now, political elections every five years. We're not done. Yeah. So, it's something that's possible. Some may say it takes away from national elections so no persons can focus on local elections. Others may have said that it drags the national elections. So, persons are always in election mode and therefore there was the suggestion for every five years. So, you have national elections, just have local elections and finish with that. And that had a financial reasoning because they said it's expensive to run an election. So, if you're already expending the money to have national elections might as well do that and then you save. But if you're doing local elections, that's twice you have to expend the same amount of money and it will go on and on. Next, please. Okay. Based on the bill, there was a bit of a gray line as to what is the relationship between the parliamentary rep and the elected councillors. And I think that's a burning question because once persons are elected, then you have to, you have persons competing because everybody wants to be re-elected. Now, if you have two persons and we're working on the constituency line, then technically do you have two district reps? Where does one draw the line and where does the other draw the line? One gets finance from government, the other one could get finance from taxes. And sometimes the mayor or the chairperson might be richer than the district rep, depending on how much taxes because the district rep has to go to budget and beg and we need this. And then you say, look, we have three million dollars we can do whatever. And then district rep says, hey, I should have gone to be a mayor instead because the funds may be more accessible. Okay. Okay, so the bill also speak to the council workers. In several consultations we have had before, persons were concerned as to their positions, whether it would be retained, whether if we have elections and a board is removed, does that mean that everybody under the administrative leg is moved? It indicates, the bill indicates that they would retain the staff. But again, we still have persons who see that based on how councils are dynamic, they may have to leave room for that dynamism for the staff as well. Okay. In terms of revenue, right now, councils are totally dependent on the department of local government and housing. That's right. So in a sense, central government, right? But like what minister was saying, many of our councils are sitting on gold mines. They are sitting on so much potential and the bill is created to create avenues and to create revenue sources that the councils can tap into to sustain themselves. Now, grossly is one of the highest earning potentials constituencies for the highest, the richest. Minister, okay, minister permitted me to say the richest. And yet, I mean, I've sat in some meetings with grossly council and the poor job because it is sad, but we need the legislation to help the council to react quickly, react quickly to situations that they should be able to react to. So with the revenue stream, there's a possibility that we can take some of the taxes that are brought in, taken from this constituency into central government and put it into the hands of the constituency council or the town council or whatever it is we decide, but we want to take some revenue that the council can use. And it's not just for grossly, but the potential revenue in all the constituencies that they can actually do something for themselves. And PSU will get a little break, minister will get a little break because you're not gonna sustain yourselves, okay? So, right, so land and house tax, remember we were speaking if we went back to the history, we would remember that land and house tax, and I'm sure older persons there would remember paying land and house taxes to the council. Right now, all that goes to inland revenue. Is it possible we take a proportion? Now, we're not saying we're taking all, but some of it can be retained by council and used for taxes, one second. And it indicates that the minister can give that right. The minister for finance can do it. Next, please. Okay, so we're looking at the reserve fund. And the reserve fund can be used in case of a disaster, in case you are in a jam, emergencies, you can use that. Okay, so I did say that. Next slide, please, please. All right, so, I guess my coffin indicated that we're going into the questions section. And, okay, so we're going into the questions and, and, okay, yeah, thank you. So we'll take a break. I'll pass you back on to Yasmin. That's my voice. Thank you, Mrs. Attil. And certainly she is very much knowledgeable, even on the history as she has been serving a few years and she really, really knows her stuff. So once again, we're so very happy that you hear Mrs. Attil and thank you so very much. Please permit me at this time to recognize the Honorable Kensin Kasumi. He is your parliamentary representative and also Senator Lisa Shuaie. We thank them so very much for being here. But at this time I would like to put the minister on the spot. I think it's very important that we're now in your constituency minister. So I'd really like you to welcome us and have a few brief remarks, minister, at this time. Thank you very much. Of course, let me acknowledge the presence of the Minister of Local Government, P.S. Ambrose, other staff, members of the Grossly Constituency Council, Mr. Mayor, everybody, welcome to the best constituency in St. Lucia. I see that, because I know the central people will have something to say. I just want to say that I can say this without fear of contradiction that St. Lucia currently has the best minister of local government in the region, without any shadow or doubt. I say this because he joined the cabinet that said to people that we were going to put them first. And upon taking the reins, he decided that one of the first things that we had to do is truly show people that on a local government level throughout their constituency, he is going to let the voice be heard and he is going to ensure that they are genuinely put first. So let's give him a round of applause for that. Of course, he would be the first one to tell you that from the time I became the minister and the MP for Grossly, I have been troubling his life and that of his P.S. for more council workers. It's simply because we constantly say based on the statistics that Grossly can easily be split in four seats. And we did not sit by and make excuses. We did not sit by and allow one individual from a particular constituency to hold back a process and not allow Grossly to be split and to be given the recognition for the population that they have, but we immediately ensure that the government that we reenacted the boundaries commission to ensure that Grossly is realigned to reflect the population that it has so that our people can get the attention that they deserve. Because you see, we as a government will not allow excuses to be the order of the day. And so, in his conversations with the P.S., he has assured Grossly that in the next financial year, they will be given an additional sum. I'm not going to say the amount, but he is going to ensure that we have additional workers in the constituency of Grossly. And so, the fact that he's here and I'm saying it publicly means that it must happen. Because he's a man of his will. And he's been recorded. And he's been recorded. And I must say he has a P.S. that is dedicated and is cerebral in a calculations on how she gets things done. And so I'm very confident that going forward, Grossly will get the attention that Grossly deserves. Talking about Moshe, I'm talking about Granivé, I'm talking about the town. Talking about every nook and cranny. And so, I'm very happy to see this exercise happening tonight. I'm very happy to see a large crowd out in the numbers tonight. People from all walks of life in the constituency. And I pray that we continue to have a very, very productive event as we look to revolutionize local government for the people. Thank you very much. Thank you so very much. The Honorable Kenson Kazemi. Certainly, I'm very encouraged when I hear a minister like Mr. Honorable Kenson Kazemi and Honorable Richard Fedrick speak that I must say that St. Lucia is in good hands and anticipates some really good stuff from both of you men. And I'm so happy that we're here discussing and sharing our ideas with you too. So at this time, without further ado, I would like to hear from you. I'd like to hear what are your thoughts, questions. You have the panel here who's very much willing and able to answer any questions. What do you think about local authorities election? What do you think we should or shouldn't do? How do you think that we should go through the process, et cetera? So this is a time that I hear from you. So the bill is perfect. We could go through the bill in its current state. No. Okay, so we have someone like to make a comment. Good night, everyone. Greg Maffer. One of the things which I want to understand one of the things which I want to understand is how the decentralization of collecting revenue is going to affect us nationally. Yes, I am living in the Grosjele. Grosjele has a big economic base. But if you were to pull out that revenue from the central government, how is that going to affect some of the smaller constituencies who do not have the luxury of having such a big economic base? Because I think, yes, we all want to think of our own area, but we'll think on a macro level and how will that impact us nationally? Let me just answer this. First and foremost, you seek a response of what invariably has to be governmental policy. You will understand that the minister of finance is ultimately responsible for the allocation of resources around this 240 square mile jurisdiction. So as I indicated earlier, I spoke of my personal view and I said that look, Grosjele with its economic base. Grosjele generating, since when I was in cabinet in the former government, it is one of the pronouncements I mean, I have always made that pronouncement. You have occupancy taxes very high. You have property taxes very high. I am not saying that the government will ask Grosjele to keep all the money generated from its constituency. No, that's not what we are saying and no decision of such a nature can be made at this forum, but most certainly, let us just juxtapose hypothetically Dennery South with Grosjele. The rep of Dennery South can walk there any afternoon, the whole constituency. He can deliver the goodies with a handout so to speak from the minister of finance. You have Grosjele with all its pockets. Do you believe in all honesty and sincerity or to your conscience that the same handout given by the minister of finance for Dennery South is adequate to fend Grosjele? You know, we have to be realistic. So this is a decision that delve into doing the mathematics, checking out the needs of the various constituencies. The other thing is you'll understand that Grosjele's infrastructure is under much more pressure than Dennery South. The persons traverse the marina every night. They traverse Rodney Bay Strip every night. On a Friday night, it is left for the constituency of Grosjele to come and clean up the mess Saturday morning. You understand? So for you to approach any system of egalitarianism, equality, you have to look at the needs and whether those needs balance out. So you balance out the resources. So I'm saying without any prejudice to our central revenue stream, which is necessary for the dispensation of government's obligations like taxes, salaries and all of that, my personal view is there are some constituencies deserving of more or a greater, a bigger slice of the cake based on the demands placed on it. Dennery South roads are not used like the Grosjele roads. Grosjele traffic on a morning, it takes you almost an hour to traverse Grosjele to cast trees. You will not have that on other roads. So, you know, you have to look at it. I mean, if you have children, you have a child who's a year old. That child, probably two bottles of milk and some with a mix is fine. But you have a child 10, 12 years old. Let's be honest. Who now wants school books? Who wants, I'm this, who want roller skates? Who want bicycles? So the demands vary based on the ages of the children. And basically that is the kind of approach that government has to take with respect or with respect to satisfying, or at least attempting to satisfy or equalize the dispensation of resources across the various constituencies. Another question. We had some guiding questions. For example, how do we define the local government jurisdictions, what criteria effect factors, what criteria or factors should be used in determining whether one remains a municipality or a local authority? Should there be separate legislation for castries as opposed to the other constituencies? So basically the parameters within which we can discuss is not limited, but let us just deal with the constituencies bill, the local government bill. Yes, sir. It's on. Can you hear me? Yes. Mr. Minister, my name is Kirby Toussaint. I'm from Grozily, well, village or town itself. And I have some concerns, forgive me, but my focus is more on Grozily, the core, all right? And I mean, I am not so young anymore, so I can't help but comparing Grozily today as it was about 30, 40 years ago, all right? And my concerns are within, I have not seen the draft bill, the draft act. So I'm just asking, what is basically trying in that act? Does it, in terms of the authority given to the council? Because I have some serious concerns with Grozily, with terms of traffic management, in terms of encroachment on our public facilities, our sidewalks especially. We see vendors encroaching on our sidewalks. And I mean, like I always said, at my age, tomorrow I may have a stroke, I may get blind. You cannot access a sidewalk now because restaurant owners have built on the sidewalks, the cars are driving on roads that are not as large as they used to be. And on a Sunday, for example, if you drive down Dauphin Street, if you're unlucky, you may take half an hour to get out because of traffic being parked on the side of the road and traffic traversing into the village. So I don't know what are the laws that are given to the councilors in terms of them wanting to address this issue. Thank you. Yes, I think that's a very good question. Once I will let you answer that question, I'll give you an experience that I encountered only yesterday. I was watching news and I did not know that the Castries Constituency Council had embarked upon, you know, persons just build artifacts for vending all over the place. All over the place, I remember in 2007 as minister of local government, the lady came to me. She had almost lost an eye next to the Ave Maria School because those people had pieces of steel protruding on which they just hang the thing on the morning. You know, and it was because of that, your humble servant began the construction in a very regulated way of those vending booths. But notwithstanding, you still find some people who believe they could put those things on the sidewalk. They can displace everybody else and that is the mindset of our people, but it has to stop. And two of the things that I'll give you all are two examples which I'm going to mention tomorrow night. If you drive down Darling Road, there's a man barbecuing chicken under the traffic light corner of Darling Road and Jeremy Street. So much so, Ministry of Infrastructure had to, well, I was called and all the electricals in there, it was like a disaster waiting to happen. They had to change all the wires in there. You know, you tell them, don't do it, they'll tell you that you don't care about them, but that is not the case. If you all drive along Bridge Street on a Sunday, this lady next to fix has a tent with endless Viejo Bois on Bridge Street. You know, how can we as a people, not that I am not displaceing anybody without necessarily giving them an alternative. I do believe in survival, but let us do it in a manner that does not compromise our safety and of course the aesthetic appeal of the police that we live. Authority of local government. Okay, so yes, this bill addresses the increase in the authorities of the local council. And I think we're having a lot of these issues now because persons like minister say, believe that they can just do what they want, where they want, how they want. And because the councils are a bit weaker, they are able to go through cracks and do as they please. But we, based on the bill, we want to increase the autonomy of the councils to ensure that they can be the eyes and ears of the constituency and effect change for the better, for the better. So this is why we're bringing this bill in. The 2012 act is very weak and does not allow for councils to find, I'll give you an example in another constituency with the 2012 acts where they wanted to go in and try to manage the vending. So there is a market, but we know how it is. If people don't come to the market, then the vendors will go to the people. So the people were all on the streets and the council brought in police and tried to get everybody out. At the point where that council almost succeeded, the vendors brought lawyers behind the council and indicated to them that they did not have the jurisdiction to do what they were doing. And now the vendors are back on the streets and council just have to pass. This bill will help to strengthen local councils. Because you are a loud boy. So just speak, oh, okay, thank you. I'm Zachary Hippolyt, Sergeant of Police, resident of Grosley. I went, I read the new draft bill and I'm very happy to see that there's an election component. I think that is very necessary. I wish to ask a question before I make a particular statement. As it obtains, when people are, I think right now selected to the council, right, to the board, is there any form of training that they go through? Yes? Can you tell me what type of training? Okay, so at the beginning of every tenure of a council board, the ministry has training with the councils on different forms. We do leadership. We also do the roles and responsibilities of chairpersons and counselors. But I will always say at the end of the day, persons go into, once they are appointed, they go into council boards for various reasons. And sometimes you give their training and if that's the reason they came in for, that is what they will pursue at that level. We have to ensure that there are rules or policies in place that if the councillor is not behaving or acting, especially when I read section 77 of the act that says the function of a councillor is to act in the public interest. Goes on to say, to provide high quality leadership to the local authority and residents. It doesn't say of labor or fullerable people. It says residents. And I have been around for a while. I have served on various development committees and I want to see a higher level of leadership. Mr. Minister, representation from those councillors. After that training, ma'am, these individuals need to understand whatever mentality they came in when it has to do with partisan politics or lines. It has to be erased out of their mind and understand it is leadership to the people of Grossly, whatever district that they belong to. Thank you. Yes, I cannot, I cannot hesitate. I cannot hesitate and I cannot basically resist the temptation, Zachary, to just bring your observation on a larger scale because what you're seeing obtains in the political arena as well. The sad thing is, persons are elected on a basis of popularity and not necessarily on a basis of ability. That's the harsh reality. As to whether they train politicians, I don't know. Unless politicians go and train themselves. You know, let's face it. Let us face it. That is the harsh reality. And politicians ought to represent everybody. Everybody. And I can never, ever forget giving stories of me being a flabby rep and when they thought I would fire SLP personnel like Mr. the man who was at City Council, Von Louis Funen, when I came in, boy, Richard will fire me. Me wanted to go up for labor. I said me, I asked the staff about him. Mr. Minister, very good worker. You know what I eventually did? Rather than firing him. When his contract came to an end, there was an opening at Solid Waste for Manager. I took him from a $4,000 salary and made him make $10,000 a month in the interest of this country of ours. And guess what? His brainchild is Serenity Park. He assisted me. I was in Flabo then. He assisted me to develop, draw and execute Serenity Park. Arthur, who is at City Council, I was in Flabo and he was calling the radio station about me all the time. All the time, just before the 2006 elections, when they said, Mr. Minister, we need a maintenance man. Sweet, you see, party minister about half a point, half a ticket with you. I asked them, who are the people? And they mentioned Arthur, the mayor told me, Mr. Minister, he may belong to the other side, but he is the one most best equipped. Arthur from 2006 is at City Council up to now. So even us, I speak to myself as well. We all need to understand. We may have our battles. We may fight our fights. But when it comes to representation, we need to deliver to all the people who are constituents of the district that we represent as politicians. Next question, please. Who is the mic? It's one thing. I am not from Grosile, and I work a lot of the time in Grosile. My thing is I make most of my friends for vending. So I do some vending at Grosile with some persons who live up here. But if you have a problem and you're not from Grosile, but you come to the Grosile minister or somebody in charge, they tell you, can I see your ID or where do you live in Grosile? But not only are you a St. Lucian, but you're not from Grosile. They don't ever want to see you. My question is, if you do appoint a council, will they chower you away or will they see your problems because not if you live in Grosile, that means you cannot have a problem to be addressed from one of the persons in Grosile. The thing is, we need to know if I'm not from Grosile, but I do business in Grosile, money comes from me to the Grosile ministry and to all sectors or in my opinion anyway. How is it going to be different? Will I be sent aside because I didn't vote in Grosile or will the cabinet or whoever in charge sees to me that I need help and they will help me no matter where I live because I am still a St. Lucian? You see, I just remember I see my constituents every Friday. And I remember one particular Friday, a man came to me and he fooled my people into telling them he's in central but he forget his ID. I saw him, I saw him and in a shake and a break, I'll tell you all what it is, apparently he had some money at Inland Revenue and he was hospitalized and I see. And he refused to pay him. I called my contacts at NIC, I said go online there for me, go on your computer, tell me if there's anybody, any money available or owed to so and so. He said yes, Mr. Minister. I said it was about $6,000. I said today Friday, give him his money. He said minister send it to me. So the guy left and I'm not exaggerating, he came to me about 11, 11.30. He came back about quarter to two and he had plates of food for everybody in the office. So eventually after he fooled my secretary into believing it's from Cassie Central, he said I say, because I tell you all that, it was my reps' one so I don't get that money yet. The point I'm trying to make to you is, if everybody just converges on one rep, you are overloading him or her. And it is really, really unfair that every rep has a constituency office, but persons from outside the constituency want them to assist that particular need. If there is a problem that is confined to the constituency of Grusili, it's a totally different kind of issue. If you notice a sidewalk is bad, somebody broke a leg in a hole, that kind of thing. Then invariably the constituency council cannot ask you where you are from if you were to seek the assistance in solving a problem that occurs in Grusili. But like we were talking about allocations, don't tell me you're from Labry. And the Labry rep has his allocation, let us see, to build sidewalks. But you come to me to build a sidewalk for you in Labry. You know that kind of thing. So if the problem, there are two types of problems that you will come with. One is personal, one is constituency beast. If it is personal, you see your rep, if it's a problem of the constituency, then that is totally different. The council knows that they have to do what they have to do to assist almost immediately once they can. Okay? It's on. Okay, speak. Yeah. I am Hugh Fontenel from the Mountain View community that's in the Grand River area. I need some clarifications. In the act, I think the person who sort of presented Mrs. Atil, is it? Wonderful, you're very knowledgeable in the subject matter. You alluded to a staff. And I think I may have misunderstood, I just need to sort of clarify. But after the term, the incoming political party may wish to change the persons on the council or change the staff. Okay, so you're not speaking to the board. Staff. We're speaking to the staff. Can you define staff? Yes. The staff are the sanitation workers and the admin. Yes, those on temporary establishment. And that is the composition of every council around the island. What? Yes. Who would then change the staff? If you're temporary, then that leaves room for you to change, yeah. Then the more things change, the more it remains the same. That is why I said there is the potential. It doesn't mean that you must. The bill indicates that all these persons are protected. The present bill we're looking at indicates that once this bill comes into an act, whoever is already employed continues to be employed. Wonderful. I indicated that some of the consultation, because this is not our first, second, or even tenth consultation, we've had persons who have indicated that they would wish that they could work with that so that you know how it works. However, the bill protects the staff and indicates that once you're there, you continue to be there. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that I understood. Thank you for that, so I can, to give me the opportunity to clarify that as well. Now, what would be the format of elections? Would it be a closed election, or would it be an open elections? Because the reason why I'm asking, okay, in the constituency, you may have somebody who is interested in presenting himself or herself for election. Coming from the red state, somebody coming from the yellow state. How are you going to state the blue state? Oh, the blue state. Now, in the open, the whosoever wins, or would you have a group of, say the council would be a number of 10 or 12, that all 12 would have to be from political party A, or all 12 must be from political party B. This is the difference between an open and a closed. Okay, let me just tell you quickly. A, everybody goes up as an individual. Nobody goes up collectively. If we need 12 councillors, and there are 20 people who put themselves up, the ballot may have all 20 names, and you select 12. Once you go 13, spoil ballot. You can do one, you can do up to 12. Given the constituency, it may go up to 15. I've just been hypothetical here, but we are doing no group representation. That is what we are trying to militant against. We cannot encourage it through the voting process. Wonderful, because you see, what we have presently is this political sort of tribalism, which has destroyed this country. There is no ethical policy. There is no immoral or moral. There is no right or wrong. The only, what exists in this country is yellow or red. There is right and wrong, you know. There is right and wrong. It all depends on who you're speaking to. But just hold your thought a minute. I remember one day I was in Castry Central, and then I was speaking to a given individual. But at the time, I did not know in relative of his resided in the CDC. And I was saying how based on your desire to take up residence in a bustling city comes with an implicit undertaking that you can suffer or you are willing to suffer some inconveniences. When you have a bus stop located next to a CDC building, you'll ask the people on the bus stand to keep quiet? No. Those are things you almost decide to accept if you want to accept the residence right there. Now, I was saying to this gentleman who I know thinks well, he thinks objectively. And I said to him, you know, if I go and live close to a garbage dump, I must expect to smell garbage. That's why I built my house. He said, yeah, man. I said, if I come and live in the CDC on Jeremy Street, I must expect to hear traffic almost 24 hours a day, whether it's ambulance or whatever pedestrian vehicle. I said, yeah, man. And even music, he said, yeah, man. And I said, you know, some of those people in the CDC is complaining, writing me, saying too much noise on the street. Who's that? Who's that? When I mentioned it was his mother. My God, I said the people all already. You understand? So they recognize what is right. They recognize what is wrong. But at the end of the day, right for them is who the players are. And wrong is who the players are. I have tried my utmost to make the distinction between right and wrong. And if you say I do something and I'm wrong and I know I'm wrong, I am not too big to apologize because all of us by virtue of being human beings will at some point do something wrong. But when you want to discover what is blatantly wrong and give justification for it, then you have a problem. Well, I wish they were more like you because there are people who there are some of us. We know what is right and we know what is wrong. But who is propagating the individual who is propagating the philosophy of right and wrong makes the difference? I understand. Right. But our elections will not be like that. So I am hoping that the revision, the revised laws or the new bill would ensure that we do not have sort of closed elections, that it is open. And does it make allowance for, does it provide the possibility of a recall that somebody who is elected, if he or she is found wanting persons within the constituency and so on. Let me stop you again. I'll tell you yes, but when I read that in the bill, I say I wish they could recall politicians as well. I'm telling you if I play the fool, recall me. If I don't represent you, recall me. I make no bones about it and it will keep politicians. They will dot their eyes, cross their teeth, keep them on the cues to deliver to the people of their constituency what they promised. So yes, I find it strange. It is in the lower bill, but we do have it at the top. And I wish it was at the top as well. Yes, disqualification on the section 75. If person is disqualified from being a councillor and is not eligible to be elected or appointed as a councillor or having been elected or appointed is not eligible to continue as a councillor if that person and it lists certain misconduct that calls for disqualification. And the last point, sort of accountability. I know the new act. You are considering allocations based on economic viability. What would be the level of accountability? Would it be audited and controlled by central government? Or the council would guard itself? Who would be guarding the guards? No, I like that. Who guards the guards? You know, let me just say that the very, every system has its inherent weaknesses. Let's not stay here and pretend all is well. Let's not stay here and pretend all is perfect. The one who makes the device or gives you the formula so that your computer is unbreakable or cannot be hacked is the very one that'll give a hacker a passcode to hack the computer. So those are the harsh realities of life, but what I can tell you to answer you shortly and swiftly is that the same level of accountability and transparency that obtains within central government would transcend onto the constituency councils at all levels. Next question, please. Yeah, Vincent Peter, I live at Bonte. Just two very brief comments, observations, if you like. I must confess that I did not have a chance to review the bill, so I will do that later on. But two things that I just want to mention. The first relates to how will this bill contribute to ensuring that people, the average people in the constituency can participate more fully and more meaningfully in the process of governance of the constituency that exists at present in the constituency and exists in the national government process. And in one of the presentations mentioned was made of Kareled. Now Kareled had done some work before Mr. Attila, I've seen Mr. Attila before, I've been, not seen, I've interacted with you before. Sorry. Now Kareled was promoting a type of economic development program, local economic development program for the, the piloted it in two constituencies for constituencies that went beyond just, you know, collecting government revenue and using that to pay for the various services that are done now. And that is where the discussion this evening I've heard it centered on the moves. But I think we need to, there's a model there in terms of how we can, the local government councils can in fact become an agent for the economic development of the constituencies and that must be framed within a proper framework, a vision and a plan for the development of the constituency. I just want to flag that. Thank you. Thank you, Vincent Peters, my alma mater, my schoolmate, my everything. Let me, I think you made two very good points, but you'll understand that the bedroom of participation is election. And that is why I believe, I can tell you this, I started this thing in 2006. It was actually started, it stopped and it stopped again until now. Although it heathes well, although ultimately I am the one in whom the authority resides for the appointment of councillors, I still believe that that should not be within my purview or that of the strict rape, let it be within the purview of the people of the constituency who are affected by the decision. And so there is no greater way to participate than electing your persons on council. You made a very good point with Carrie Lade and every constituency basically doing its thing in terms of branding itself. I have made that statement at every swearing in that we have done. I went to Souffre and I spoke to council, you know, I spoke to them at length. Souffre has the volcanoes. Oprah Winfrey said, if there is one place you need to visit before you die, you visit Souffre. I told the councillors, I want you to develop a website. Get your own letterhead and put Oprah Winfrey's quote on the bottom and go and start begging the international community. Write to Oprah herself and ask Oprah to send you some money because you all are the council that operates where you see everybody in the world must visit. You go to Dennery, you have the fish fry. Well, Grozini has such a multiplicity of areas. You know, call yourself the repository of hotels in St. Lucia. You know, a place you must come on a Friday night. Whatever it is, one has to be innovative. You cannot, as a developing country, a developing constituency, rely solely on governmental handouts. And if you go on various websites, let us say, for example, in Grozini, you want to build a shelter for battered women. I'm being hypothetical. I'm not saying Grozini menders be their women. Let us say you want to build that. You go and do some research and you will be surprised how many donor agencies have hundreds of millions of dollars readily available for donation to go into different disciplines for assistance. You want to build an animal shelter. You want to do this, you want to do that. So what it does, it actually minimizes your reliance on central government because the reality is central government's revenue is under immense pressure. And the more you can do for yourselves, the better it is. So we take one more question and comment as it is 9 p.m. Good night, good night. I was actually going to move a motion. That would be the last comment. I'm Ed Alsamuel from the Granivier Minibus Association and next to me is my colleague. He's also a representing both Barbono and Moshi. Well, indirectly, I suppose we have already touched one, two, and three, but I would like it if just in a small synopsis we can touch it so I can be better groomed, my understanding will broaden. I'm trying to marinate myself in why I was invited here because people have spoke about it indirectly but I'm trying to see my sector, the transportation sector being an asset and not a liability to develop in this bill. Okay, I don't know if you have to navigate me properly or maybe I miss the bus, I'll give you a lift. But I listen to everything and it's had to fault it. By the way, I counted a privilege and an honor to be here tonight because most of the people that are here, I listen to on radio or watch on TV. All right, so I told myself my lips would be impregnated if silence, but I had to speak. So I just want you to, I want you to honestly, not funny, I want to see my sector, the transportation sector being an asset to this bill since I represent, since I live in Grenovier and also Slasov and Aho but I want to see me being an asset to us developing, bringing a revenue. Like somebody touched earlier on, whether we're going to go this way or that way, are we going to have election every three years? I notice that not the things we have to speak about now, you'll just want the bill to pass. But these are the things that- We need ideas to incorporate within the bill and to come back and then pass the bill based on the ideas that we get from the people. Well, that might be, now you're saying that it's too late for that, it's already nine o'clock. But my point is, I just want, just indulge me a little before I leave here, I need to see the transportation sector because I believe with all these things that are being said, especially on the Friday nights, be taxi or minibus. You know, I'm going there. You know, we play a pivotal part in helping bring success to this bill. Thank you very much. Okay, let me just say it's a very good question. Put it this way, there is no finite list of opportunities. We are not saying that this sector will benefit and this one will be left out. And that is exactly why we are here to be in conversation. For example, we can now, based on what you say, you just asked, we can give the council the authority to make regulations pursuant to the act because law can never be static, meaning it's cast in stone. Law has to be dynamic to take cognizance of the changes in life. So you can say that the council is empowered, subsequent to the enactment of this legislation to pass regulations governing any sector that is, it sees fit within its constituency boundaries. So for example, they can say that then down. On a Friday night, you have to apply to the grocery council to travel that route or you must be on that route. You must be, you know that kind of thing. I cannot, we cannot in this forum, exhaust the list of possibilities on whom benefits can be distilled. But I agree with you and it is not only in the minibus sector. You have persons, let us say, you have somebody with the biggest rum shop somewhere, way outside the constituency. And on a Friday night, they come and open the largest tent, you know. Is it fair to the people in the constituency? So all of those things can be looked at. But obviously, like I said, the list is not exhaustive, but I will permit Ms. Actile to put the icing on the cake with respect to that question, which is our final question. Okay, thank you very much minister. Sometimes we come to consultations and we ask ourselves, how do I fit in? And I'm happy you said you're a minibus driver because sometimes minibus drivers are the ones who benefit the most from the services of council. If council gets more revenue, they can cut the grass. They can debush. You could see further. If you have a clean environment, you have happy customers. You have persons who want to visit that constituency. If council gets more revenue, they may be able to fix the roads quicker than central government because they are on the ground. And because you have a local government, you may be able to contact council even easier than you may be able to reach the politician. So you fit in by us bringing this bill. We want to bring our constituents, regardless of who you are, become a voice and a beneficiary to the constituency council. So you do fit in. Thank you. Honorable minister, one more. I think Mr. Vinicherry is our very last. Why are we making an exception? Because he had the question a while. He was a little too shy. So now he says, not a night cannot close without it. Okay, tell me something else. Don't tell me Vinicherry is shy. Tell me something else. Vinicherry is my real big bahuwi also here. Good night, everyone. Mr. Vinicherry, president of Grozile. I wanted a little clarification because I think what I heard you guys are saying is this is to solve the issue of maybe the funny, especially because Grozile is so big. When the minister needs assistance, he can't get everything he wants. So maybe if we're in charge and council is in charge. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, let me. No, no, but you said, you see, if you start off wrongly, it means you will continue on the wrong vein. Anytime you hear somebody is advancing an argument on a wrong assumption, once their assumption initially is wrong, then the argument fails. No, it is not for that. It is to foster greater participation and to empower councils so that they may be in a position to deliver to the constituency in a manner that is more meaningful than what currently obtains from central government. Okay, perfect. So for example, if we go in the route of separating Grozile into two or three districts, how for? And one section in Grozile, let's say Grozile-Rodney Bay area generates more revenue than the Grand Riviera area. How do we ensure that the rep for Grand Riviera area and the council there are able to develop and assist and help that area as much as the rep in the area that generates more capital? Okay, I will first say this. We are not here to determine or to make any pronouncement on separation of constituency. That is the first point. It has not been brought to my knowledge, my attention, and I cannot speak authoritatively on that. But even if it is, same as I spoke to earlier obtains, one would have to look at the demands on the various constituencies. Obviously, they are now part of Grozile if this happens, but it becomes a constituency on its own. And whatever explanation I gave as regards resources, the demands, the pressures on the infrastructure invariably that we'll obtain in so far as equalizing the allocations because you see when you equalize, like I said earlier, if you have two hungry children, one is three months old, that little baby there, half a bobo, a belly full, a big man, he needs two dashing, one yam, and a big plate of fish. In other words, we must look at the logistics if and when it happens to make a determination as to what would satisfy one against the other. But I cannot speak authoritatively to it at this point because it is not something that is on our books at this time. Okay? So once again, please remember, St. Lucia, that this is not the end of this discussion. Our various town councils around the island, they currently have in this very same discussions. You read the bill, you have some feedback, you have some information, some ideas you'd like to share. You could reach the mayors or the chairpersons at the various town councils and also the counselors to ensure that the feedback is presented to us and then we go ahead and we present this to cabinet. So once again, the discussions will continue. I believe Grossely would like to have a follow-up meeting, et cetera, they'd like to continue this discussion. So once again, St. Lucia, around the island, these discussions are happening. This is not the first discussion and we are continuing around the island. If you need to have a look at the bill, you need to know what we're speaking about. You could go to the Ministry of Housing and Local Government Facebook page. You could go to the Can I Help You Facebook page and you could also go to the Facebook page of the Prime Minister's office. It's posted on the page. So we encourage St. Lucia to read through the bill and please give us the necessary feedback. It is our business. Local Government is all of our business. So at this time, on behalf of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government, I'd like to thank each and every one of you here and everyone who viewed live this discussion. Thank you so very much for this rich discussion and as you have noted that we have taken your comments and your questions into consideration, we will continue to receive them as we continue to review this bill. So I thank you again for sparing your evening with us. Thank you so very much and do have a good evening. Please get home safely.