 I just want to tell you that we always record day. Yep, that's fun. And we'll be waiting for a couple of minutes after the after 10 o'clock because there are a lot of sagas will show up. Completely understand. Plus we got to wait for Sam to ease the fee. Yes, of course. He's the content expert, although I can explain a bunch as I was senior author editor on the paper. But I'm just more of the, there is wonderful. So I was explaining to Ken. I was explaining to Ken that we wait for a couple of minutes and then we have a two short announcements, which will be more of an administrative nature. Before we start, because we are under the hyper ledger umbrella so we have we are forced to not forced to but we do follow a couple of rules. That sounds great. Very nice to meet everybody. So are you able to see the share screen or should I give you the. I'm I'm I'm seeing myself and Ken on video and there's about five of others who are not on video. I don't mind. I'm in the zoom room. I've got a few slides that will work as a companion to the talk that Ken and I are prepared to give, but as long as I can share my screen, I should be okay. Do you see the green share screen button at the bottom. I do. Okay, so once we start, you can share your screen but in the meantime, I'm going to talk about a couple of things. One is, we are meeting under the hyper ledger umbrella, hyper ledger foundation rules. Two things. One is the antitrust policy. It's supposed to be following the antitrust policy so no antitrust busting. I mean trust busting on this call, wherever you are, you know the laws. The second is more of a code of conduct, which is, you can disagree with. Ken and or anybody else, but you have to do it without being disagreeable. This is an open debate call so and without much more waiting, we go forward with this call, the call is being recorded. I will post the meeting notes page. And Ken is going, I mean, I think it is she, Sam, who's going to make the presentation with able assistance from Ken, who's the principal author. Thank you. And onward and upward. Thank you so much for the intro. Maybe it would start well, if I'll give a brief introduction or Ken why don't you introduce yourself and I can give an intro and jump in, give a little bit of backstory and so to kind of why how we got to this particular moment and then, you know, I would like to open up, you know, hear from the community. Yeah, obviously Ken, any thoughts you have as we go through this, but also would love to hear from you guys any questions you have and, you know, really intended to make this as interactive as possible. And yeah, it does how does that set in terms of formats for your usual meetings. So if you want to just stop in and introduce yourself. Sure, she'll come from an author and editor of this piece. So I managed director of build ETH, which puts on events and also working on several other projects. And marketing center prior to this used to be for three years at the enterprise Ethereum Alliance doing the education and director of education and development. Met Sam about a year ago, and he was working on the statement of digital assets. I said this is amazing. So my thing was really just coming in and helping with the paper. And Sam is obviously the content expert on this but certainly I picked up a fair amount in the past year. So I'm really just here to provide just any color analyst or support as as Sam, you know, take the leads the presentation. And can you're too modest but anyway, I'll start with introduction on myself because I think that really dovetails well into sort of how we got to the statement of digital assets. Teller has been around for about 15 years we provide essentially a full stack CFO down to staff accounting outsource solution for BC back startups. So the thought is you've got a really stage seed a seed series a series B and sometimes even series C their team should be focused on building selling and scaling not having necessarily perfect instance of QuickBooks and while it's great to have a CFO around really at your seed through a and B. You, there's just not 40 hours a week of work to be had at those in those ventures. I started out propeller about five years ago in our SAS group, and about six months in. I was assigned a new client. That the resource manager said well they're Bitcoin crypto blockchain I've got no idea what they did you want them I said sure that client ended up being Solano labs. And very quickly, it dawned on me that you know in addition to the finance and accounting work that we're going to have to be doing for all of our other clients or it's going to be the second layer of crypto finance and crypto accounting. Really, didn't didn't really exist at the time. So, we kind of jumped into it that was really my step down the rabbit hole. And as of today we're working with about 50 or so web three, everything from infrastructure, defy CFI NFT gaming, and a, about nine or 10 different foundations and VC firms. And really, you know, I think the goal, or I'd say the secret sauce of, you know, our practice which is directly related to so it is, is taking on chain activity and translating it into gap on the P&L side, its revenue cost of sales expenses and then calculating And then on the expense side, there's a, again, not sure the, the accounting depth of the audience but the rules for in general for reporting digital assets. Have you reporting your crypto and the balance sheet at the lower of cost on paired value that's not an absolute but in general that's where things stand with FASB. And so I remember the first time we were getting close to a close and we were doing all of our calculations doing our reconciliation with our sub ledgers. And we got to the point where we, you know, got to the right number for the balance sheet for the close call. But it came to about $7 million. I knew that our client who was a an L2 had actually several billion dollars of their native token in the Treasury. And we were going to be going into a close call sharing with their CFO that, you know, on their balance sheet they were sitting on, you know, a fraction of that. And the call went as I suspected the, you know, the number was questioned we justified it we show that it was actually correct for gap, but it done us very quickly that that number made no sense. And that gap really had was doing the industry a disservice in terms of forcing the reporting of digital assets to take the form of it's called an intangible, an indefinite intangible lived asset. And basically that means you can only mark it down. Mark it up. Yes. If you could go into the presentation mode and a slide show. Oh, are you not seeing my screen. I am seeing the screen but if you transition to a slide show then we will just see your presentation rather than your tabs and Oh, I apologize. Sorry. It's okay. I don't want to stop your flow. And of course, I must apologize because I did not introduce you guys properly, even though you had sent me your bios. Oh, no, not no problem. Well, is that how is, how is the slide show was on. Yeah, this is it. Thank you. Please go ahead. Sorry to interrupt your flow. No problem. And, and I think as I as I sort of alluded to, you know, my, my bio very much kind of trails into the, you know, the moment we are in and was the as this slide slides title puts out why soda. But so, you know, we came to the conclusion that essentially the balance sheet was not. You know, I'd say that we say that welcome which is law of cost or market, which is a current reporting standard for most digital assets. Basically the balance sheet is broken for many businesses that carry digital assets on on their books and that is because you've got no sense of the liquidity behind what that entry is. And, you know, I think that there is very much a break amongst our clients and again we're dealing we still work with Solano work with optimism we work with, I'm sorry, a bunch of call it crypto native and crypto Jason businesses, but then I think about other businesses that just carry digital assets could be NFTs it could be anything else, but the balance sheet is no longer telling you I mean it traditionally a balance sheet, the role of it was to tell you what you owned your assets what you owe your liabilities, and what's been invested to you. And, you know, as I've been saying, the, the, you know, the balance sheet for a business that's carrying digital assets on is is fun only is fundamentally broken. So not only do you and the best practice also is to essentially track all of your digital assets in a single single sub ledger, which then, again, on the balance sheet not only does not give you the right value of what you're carrying. It doesn't even break out what the individual assets are. So these are really, you know, some of the core problems that we began to to realize existed, you know, when we had to be reporting per gap, which is fundamentally the language of business. But, you know, then also had to be working with operators who were dealing with digital assets. So I think and again I'm not sure I should have actually asked. I would have loved to have heard a little bit more about the background of the folks who are joining the call today, but you see the word treasury amongst nine or 10 different crypto finance and accounting executives with 15 different answers. It's become something of an amorphous term and one of the things that I think I really wanted to begin focusing on was how do you then begin at least to say when you to talk about treasury, it's at least talking about the entirety of all the funds that an entity has control over. So that brings us to the statement of digital assets and where this started from was, again, the entry and actually going to fast forward to here. If you see on a general ledger down here, there is a single entry that is cryptocurrency. And that is a number that, you know, this is what I've just been rallying against doesn't make a ton of sense. So what we did with the statement of digital assets is we took that number and said okay if that is our starting point. So the challenge at going back to the L2 that I mentioned was, you know, how do you actually begin to start answering the question. What's in, you know, what's in this entry and we started with this concept of talking thinking about wallet asset pairs. And so, well, let's just start by just doing a build to say, you know, we know that we're reporting in this case $7.5 million in the balance sheet. Let's actually just show what's in that. And I know this looks very basic, but this just isn't done when you talk to accountants or closing the books. They will they and you want to prove out that number, they will show you reams of reconciliation analysis and data. But it really took us quite a while just to say, to prove this number out, we're going to take wallet asset pairs and add them up. Once we did that though we realized that, you know, that is, that's that's good and it's showing that we're doing our work, but it doesn't actually let the operators of these businesses understand their full capacity. And since we had basically all the data, we said, Okay, well let's bring this to fair market value which is not what you're reporting in terms of gap but it's very important in terms of trying to manage your entity, whether it's a foundation organization project, what have you or if just you're sitting on digital assets under books. In this case, this imaginary entity is sitting on $3 billion of their native token, which is this is not, these are not numbers at left field by the way, this is pretty commonplace so all of a sudden, you know, when it me as an operator, I want to know all where the numbers that I'm reporting on my P and L are correct, or my balance sheet are correct and that my, my books are good so I don't go to jail for tax evasion. But number two, you know what is my what what is my true liquidity and that that $3.3 billion is not your liquidity there's tax implications there's liquidity discounts but you're beginning to get a sense of the range of what you're what you own. And then taking that a step further, you know, I've got some clients that are have terrific wallet hygiene that have a half a dozen wallets and every wallet has a very defined use case I've got other clients that have 50 and some have 150 wallets. So the ability to begin to tag each wallet with roles, or specific tags, and then essentially do roll ups, and you know that again allows you to then begin to slice and dice the data, make, make your wallet and Treasury view, you know, suitable for for management. And that's, that's kind of the way we, you know, that's what we developed for the same digital assets. Let me pause there for a second. I'll get into kind of the expanded use cases and sort of what got us into the white paper in a second but does anyone have any questions. Again, let me just maybe summarize so on the bottom right you have that 7.5 million, which is basically the book value so that's the line that would go in the balance sheet. The statement of digital assets is a backing sheet to that number. And what you've done here is break that out, not only with the fair market value, which is the column on the right, which is according to gap. Oh, sorry, the fair market value so the book value so the book value is on the right. So that's gap accounting, which gets you to the 7.5 million. What you've done is basically come out with a second column, which is the second from the right, which is the fair market value, which goes through and provides an SM FMV for the digital assets, and that arrives at the number is the 3.3. And basically so this is the statement of digital assets, which is the various columns with the role of the wallet, the asset type, the quantity, and then the two columns the fair market and the book value. So essentially what again just summary is what we've done is take that single line item on the balance sheet and provide more detail to it to provide a better view of the liquidity of the organization. Yes, and that's, you know, I think that that explains it well. You know, I think that was, and I'm sorry if there's other questions from the audience. Yeah, please do not hesitate to ask. Yeah, let's wait for awkward silence. Let's wait for real till it gets people start squirming and then. But, but money looks like he has unmuted so he might ask a question. And I always have questions, which, you know, I don't want to take the lead on questions. So what happens is money probably is going to ask a question. Yes. Thanks. Thanks. Hi, this is the mani poli from all these digital. I have a quick question on the custodian trading account, where you say the fair market values by 76 but as the book values. What are the capital is one double of that. I mean, yeah. Yeah, this should be a 500 times. I mean, 7 million and 3 billion. This would be pre impairment. So we run our impairment tests on a annual basis so I, are you asking why is it wise book value higher than fair market. This this in this case it's pre impairment so I, that would be that'd be the answer. But you're absolutely correct and I think depending on the organization you can have. I believe coin based as impairment testing every 15 minutes for private cusp for private entities, it can be on an annual basis, but good, good, good catch. So we were, we were running this analysis for our clients and as I mentioned they were all VC back startups. And it was really meant as a tool for operators to really help run their business from a finance and operation operating lens. And I would say it was probably about the time when actually Ken and I met that, you know, I was going through this process we're doing we had a few audit ready audit preparedness projects. We had a number of these clients getting ready for VC funding. And, you know, all of a sudden, a lot of what we were doing here seemed to have relevance in other areas that were finance and accounting related. And so we put our heads down and said, All right, well, you know, we've come up with something that is a, I think a very valid approach to a very real problem. I would say maybe two years ago or three years ago it was like oh this is our secret sauce and we've got a proprietary thing here. The reality is I think probably you lock everybody on this on this call up into a room and say this is what you need to come up with, you're going to come up with something pretty functionally similar so you know instead of trying to create a wall garden around this. I think started with some of the conversations I had with Ken, there was a thought to say, Why don't we turn this into a best practice open source opportunity and create kind of a public benefit collaboration. And come up with a white paper that actually shares, you know, this as a, as a way for the industry to, you know, create some common ground and, and have a standardized reporting mechanism. And that's really where I think the white paper that we shared with you guys kind of started and, you know, against, you know, our focus has always been with management ops. But, you know, speaking with the team at Andreessen, you know, they're, you know, they love the, they love seeing the great things that their port codes are building, but they still need to have their management reporting in US gap and they are able to understand what is, what is sitting in wallets not necessarily just being able to take a look at a sub ledger or go and be able to double check their, their holdings but actually being able to understand it be able to make judgment calls within a gap framework. And, you know, the same is true, you know, not sure how many folks on this call have gone through a crypto audit or have begun to, you know, try to find an auditor who's wanting to take on a crypto client. It is a non trivial task. Having your ducks in order before you try to start getting audit acceptance is absolutely essential. We have worked with big four who have helped validate soda as a way to be audit ready it's not a guarantee that you'll find an auditor if you are using soda, but it will make it a lot easier for audit acceptance. And, you know, in a similar way, there's when you are in the process of, well, taxes, similar conversations with other big fours who are saying, yes, having your books organized in this way will help help the tax process. But again, getting into other areas as well. You know, making sure that you're staying up to date with your if you've got a money transmitter license with your filings on. And then finally, you know, again, we live in a very, you know, the, the rules that govern foundations are not necessarily the rules that govern private companies because there's a need for openness and, and, you know, some a certain amount of public disclosure and sharing with the ecosystem and that's, that's, you know, again, creating a standard where you can control exactly what you're what you're sharing and making sure that what you're sharing is in line with what industry norms are. And again, we've gotten support on that as well. That's, and so again, we started braiding this white paper I think it was probably about March of last year. It was Ken myself, colleague of mine. We had representatives from big four major VCs and major projects contribute. And if you've opened up the first two pages, we are still working through attribution approval for some of those other names. So I can't mention them here, but that will be a part of the v2 but we really put our heads down and just decided that we wanted to create this first benefit for the industry and we were able to I moderated a panel at Mainnet in September on stage with me was M. Westerhold from Andreessen, David Byrd from EY and Plash Agrawal from OP Labs to unveil SOTA. And where we are right now with it is in the process of getting the full attribution approval. There's a few sections that we're tweaking. We've also gotten, we've created partnerships with all major crypto sub ledgers bit wave, integral and traces in the works where they're going to be rolling out hand SOTA reports in their systems in Q1. And what we're going to be hoping to do in Q1 is in addition to announcing our other contributors who once it works, it gets through their policy departments, is an endorsement period where we will be looking for people who are working within this industry, controllers, CFOs, anyone who needs to be tracking digital assets through a gap lens to basically endorse this as hey, this is a system that I am in, I'm using that works. And again, I really can't stress this enough that the real point of this is a public benefit collaboration to create a best practice for the industry. And in a lot of ways I think there is growing up that needs to happen in a lot of sectors of digital assets, but ultimately I think having sound reporting is probably the, you know, one of the most important if not the most important single thing that we can do to help bring digital assets into the business models that are, you know, the mainstream is a question to working with. So, let me, let me pause there I think I've been sucking all the air out of the room, but can anything else that you'd like to add. No, I think you did a great job there I think the only thing is it passed over the importance of the sub ledger and the involvement of sub ledgers so can you explain it what the sub ledger is also their involvement early on and then what their formalization of this in the as a, you know, prepared report means. Really that's a great point and sorry for jumping over there's quite a bit here but so I'll I'll I'll rewind back to my experience with Solana and my early days in crypto. We actually did not have a ton of so when we started working with Solana, they were in test net. There was some token movements but it was it was primarily focused on employee comp. And we started working about eight months later with an L2 that was also in test net and we come up with some clever Excel sheets and to basically price transactions and the rules around this are when you either get tokens coming in as revenue, you have to price that when the token enters your wallet, and you have the meaning and control. And when you pay ETH out for for gas or your date of token as a, as compensation, you need to, again also price that at the at the point of the transaction in us dollars there's tax consequences as well put that to the side for a second. But the timing and pricing of that is a is is is not a simple thing. And so a sub ledger essentially is a system that you, you know, plug your wallets in you plug a variety of rules in. And when transactions happen, it prices those transactions and ultimately delivers journal entries to to the accountants to then include in if it's QuickBooks or net suite, we've got the general ledger here so you can see on this slide that, you know, the digital assets in the activity are number one on all that data flows into the sub ledger that sub ledger then and I'm grossly oversimplifying it kicks out what you need to be putting on your P&L and balance sheet. And that's where the captains take over in terms of making sure that the income statement flows of balance sheet balances. And then ultimately in this slide here you can see the statement digital assets is then supporting the general ledger. Again, also tying back to the sub ledger as well. But we were in a position we had not. There were no sub ledgers four years ago. And we're doing everything in Excel spreadsheets and then our L2 client came along and we realized that, you know, they said, Well, we're going to be rolling out some problem we've got a model that can totally handle this and well we expect that we're going to be pushing through, you know, starting out with a half a million transactions a month going up to, you know, probably five or 10 million transactions a month and very quickly realize it, you know, whatever janky model I built was not going to be able to handle that so we ended up partnering with Bitwave early on. They are one of the leaders still in the space. But again, their job is basically to take the on chain activity and put that into a journal entry that we could then include in the income statement and then also the balance sheet. So, I guess if if if there's not questions out there I'd love to hear from the audience. What do you guys do. How do digital assets impact your business and how have you been handling your, you know, any any digital assets crypto on on the balance sheet in terms of just practically getting the books closed if that's where you're sitting, or making sense of it but you know can I'd love to, you know, just talk about context a little bit and, you know, hear how how you guys are, you know, working within crypto and accounting in your in your day to day. Don't hesitate, please ask questions or make statements. And even if you want to call on people and put people on the spot I've got no problem with that either. Yeah, many again, maybe, you know, we are much more focused on real world assets or take high assets. But it still has the same kind of similar problem, although it's not as complicated as as crypto's and I have I mean I also gone through crypto's on a personal basis bottom so crypto's and I had to somehow come up with the tax, you know, tax entities for IRS. For traditional assets, we do have market prices. But for private asset, we're still going to have problems because these are not priced often but that's the same problem as traditionally finance how they do it. I don't see anything, anything significantly coming out any significant issues for traditional assets, but I don't know I want to take I mean I want your take on it and see anything that you see that could be more aligned towards crypto's. Yeah, well so first of all, great, great, great point. And you're actually zeroing in on one of the sections that we will be including in terms of use cases for our v2. I did a McKinsey roundtable in July on the future of tokenization in financial services and it was, you know, all about token tokenizing repo agreements. You know, it was a month before the JP Morgan announcements happen. You know, fundamentally accounting, you're going to be accounting for, you know, the thing you're going to account for the thing the way the thing should be accounted for and I know that is a word soup that doesn't mean much but you know if you're if the rules around financial assets mean that you have to mark to market you're going to mark those tokens to market. However, like you mentioned if it's tokenized real estate, it will sit on your books. And I apologize, it is morning in San Francisco and I've got the sun blurring in from the south here so I apologize for the, the shade. You know, I think that, you know, when you start thinking about real world assets or some people are liking to call them off chain assets. You know, I think there is absolutely the need. You know, okay, those are going to sit on the balance sheet somewhere and if they're going to be sitting in wallets. They're going to be rolled up into a single line item so you know where I think we talked very much about crypto and whether it's Ethereum Bitcoin or a native token. That's really been the focus of a lot of our clients but I think the same is true, especially depending on what the business is. If they're holding tokens of a real world asset, they have to live somewhere, they have to be, you know, tracked, but you appropriately, again, I'll just go to real estate if it's you're tracking it at the cost basis, but you're going to have the same, you know, running a whatever business it is you're still going to want to have visibility to what the fair market value is you're also going to have the ability if you've got a variety of, you know, holdings to be able to, you know, roll up your fractionalized real estate or fractionalized. And again, the accounting treatment is going to be different if they're financial assets but I think that, you know, again, you start thinking about, you know, the tokenization and it's really it's, you know, statement of digital assets statement of, you know, tokens owned, there's, there's other ways, maybe, you know, more artfully, you know, call this that, you know, can have can address the real world asset piece but I think that is that's going to be I think the major story of this next cycle and I'm very excited that I think that this framework really can support, you know, again, you know, we can tokenize the world but we still need to account for it somehow and it still needs to be in a gap context. So same business can can you roll back to the statement itself, and we can show the columns. So basically yes of a real world assets, you know you would be facilitated by this organization, because, and by the framework so again this gets tied into the sub ledgers which get tied into wallets which gets tied into the on chain, you know verification so essentially what you're doing is using this as the way to formulate or structure your holdings. So this could be helpful in pre audit and audit stages that basically you verify that you have these holdings in that particular account, at that particular price, and then from there, the real world assets then you're going to want to further step to say okay well let's ascertain then those real world assets and those connection between the token and the real world assets and actually verify, you know, they probably be off chain activities but essentially this structure would help with all the on chain activities of the token, the separation of the token or the organization token, and then as Sam said you could roll it up into these could be real estate assets or they could be tokenized bonds, and any particular so essentially you could have wallet and the role could be the different type of RWA that they might be. And again this would not only be for reporting on a balance sheet but this is for any internal reporting, investor reporting, however you want to organize this for any additional downstream reports of your financials. Yeah, I'm just trying to try to figure out if there's any difference between holding a physical real estate, and tokenizing them and holding the assets in my wallet, the values are same. What is the same is the main difference there would be if I think the benefit of being able to fractionalize a single property. So, the same region sort of it all, it already happens in the form of mortgage backed securities, except it's a pool of assets that back to mortgage backed securities. In fact, valuation of mortgage backed security bonds is a very tough thing to do because sometimes there's slicing and dicing of cash flows, which lead to, you know, CMOs and other where the pricing of those are, you know, also risk weighted and of that kind of, you know, difficulties, but money is talking about, of course, direct, direct holding of fractionalized real estate, like a commercial building, huge commercial building, maybe. So, are you saying, so I mean, look, I think if I own, you know, 555 California outright and well first of all, I wouldn't be sitting on my balance sheet as a single line item. But I think that, you know, if there is an opportunity to, you know, fractionalize that ownership and that's done through tokenization. And that I think that has the, you know, from a real estate perspective, I think that's, you know, that's the why you would tokenize and then, again, being able to then have, you know, the unit, you know, in a, you know, having ever having a framework to capture the unit I think is the ultimate benefit for this. So you're, I mean, I think I also misunderstood the money's earlier question, which is something about the fair market value. Well, my name caught me actually so we had. So the per gap you, you mentioned this earlier you need to be marking your assets to market and marking them down only not up so in theory, your book value should not be exceeding your fair market value. Again, depending on the organization. You don't have, you don't have to be doing impairment testing on a daily basis although some public companies do. But your book value should always be at or below your fair market value. And I think that's where good, good, good, good call out money and I will, I will actually adjust the slide appropriately. Okay, let's continue unless we should open it up for questions but maybe later on. Yeah, let me just put, yeah, let me just put some context where we are with the process and then we can either take questions directly on this, the report or on getting involved in what we're doing so as as Sam said it's a public benefit collaboration. And so we're trying to present this as a framework for the industry. And we've done the first version say say this version was 0.9. And we're looking to add some some areas specifically when the use cases we've got some VCs and others contributing. And we're also getting the sub ledgers on board, and we're looking for endorsements for so the final version being one that I would be released in in January. And then from there it's just all about, you know, helping to support. You know, the education and knowledge of this, but essentially once it becomes encapsulated in sub ledgers. A lot of that gets carried forward by the sub ledgers. So should we continue. Yeah, maybe also for some context. What is the, you know, general industry backgrounds of folks on the call. I can say about myself by, you know, I've worked for a long time in traditional finance, but then got became an evangelist for blockchain back in 2015. But I've written a lot of systems for mostly for trading, but I've also written systems for other aspects like, for example, audible, which is a media company, but I was involved with the digital representation. You know, the layout so that it preserves integrity and also serves a way to not be copied, which is what let them be a big company, but you know, variety of things. And of course now I'm in sort of a more on the industry policy angle, but I'm definitely interested in risk management. And these concerns hit directly at rich risk management because liquidity and the, not only just the fire fair market value but who controls those wallets. I think that's something very important because, you know, if somebody just dies and you can't access the wallet, then you're done. I mean, like, you happen in Rodriguez case. But anyway, I leave it open to the others to talk about themselves. That's a great point and I'll just one, one, one, one minor point to add in there. You know, the statement of cash flows was not adopted by FASB until 1987. And that in part was due to scandals that went on in the 80s and savings and loan crisis, and really a lack of visibility to what a business was doing. You know, you know, and what what could be seen when you're just looking at an income statement and a balance sheet and a variant of the cash flow statement but was not a formalized document. And you know, I think that to your point, you know, being able to provide the transparency and to create best practices for this industry. I think it's critical right now and I think the opportunity to standardize this or a an evolved version of this is a terrific opportunity not, you know, obviously just for, you know, folks that just want to make more sense and make better investing decisions, but also for, I'd say the broader industry in general and, you know, I think we're, we're past some of the wild Westie days of, you know, the previous cycles and I think what we're going to be getting into in the next. Hopefully, we're in the nation points of an upturn and a broader market adoption of digital assets. But you know I think with that there needs to be a mature way to be able to account for it all. So who else wants to provide their background and experience and their comments. So my name is Michael Chan. I just joined the conversation. Do you hear me. Yep. Yes. Yes. So, so I'm now on a university faculty and then I'm my expertise is developing BC system in order to catch the major concern which I talked about. The risk efficiency and also try to find out the values that we can capture the most in order to develop the BC system in the way people want. So, so I have accounting background so generally understand the topic what I'm talking about here so basically. So, according to my understanding, you know, when the crypto or blockchain world is new for accounting finance area. So there's a need for us to come up with a standard. Okay, to help the authorities and the regulation to come up with a new standard. So that's the standard is going to be used to govern all the subsequent people or like business, you know, who has involvement, you know, using crypto or tokens or blockchain. So, I would love to work with you try to find out that, you know, how a blockchain system can be developed or designed in a way in order to best accommodate all the considerations we are talking about. And then so great to meet you and then looking forward to keep talking with you. Likewise and I, I appreciate your, your thoughts and especially, and if I'm getting the question correct, you know, the, the, how do you standardize or how do you take the, I'd say the ethos of smart building to, you know, making sure that it can be accounted for properly and we've had more than one occasion where we've had clients approach us who have built out something that is really cool, but is actually you couldn't account for it where reward where you would, you know, the equivalent of staking would go out but staking and the reward would come back in and one lump sum. And, you know, I think this is a developer, you know, doing something too cute, and, you know, impressing maybe other developers, but creating, you know, elements that, you know, are not not not workable in the real world and I'm not sure if that was, you know, addressing your question but you know I think having, and I think this ties directly back to the maturity of the industry but, you know, bringing in, you know, the core principles of accounting. You know, earlier on in the development cycle is, is, and understanding that these are the standards that will have to be, you know, you know, attended to is is huge and you know I think you also mentioned government standards and I think my goal is not to create regulation out of this I think it is to create self regulation and it is to say that, you know, if we as an industry can come together and say this is what we're doing. You know, I don't, I've, I've met the folks at FASB. I'm not an accountant by trade I got my career started in investment banking. But, you know, I think that, you know, if the industry can create a standard that it can adhere to that makes sense that's not, you know, designed to hide anything or rip off investors that, you know, the rest of it will come but I think that this could be an exercise and self regulation and that's where I think, again, getting is kind of talked about, you know, this endorsement period and getting practitioners involved and saying this is a system that makes sense. This is a system that works for me and my business. I think that's where I think the, the opportunity really lies. But Steven, good to meet you and I'm sorry, Michael, Michael. Good to meet you and thank you very much for participating today and I will, I will, I'll pin you on LinkedIn after this call. And then thank you very very enlightening. So the I understand that, you know, for production developers. Okay, so what's lacking right now is that there's no covering rule. Okay. There's like, like a federal regulation governing what to do. So when everything is a burry and it's hard for tech technical people to develop a corresponding system that can be adopted by the industry. So I know this is a more like a button up process the the like, you know, semi you are developing this kind of the standard as in who were more people are using it and then so that's going to influence the people in Washington DC and then great, you know, shape, you know, the, the, the, the federal regulations about, you know, how in the future, the gap or the accounting, you know, the academia, you know, how they're going to set up the rules in order to best capture the essence of the the blockchain world, you know, according to gap, you know, standard. So I understand that and then I would love to join with you, you know, of course, you know, I'm academia. I try to tackle the funding, the quintessential values or effecting and also the risk behind and then so that we can really make it a hit and then try to to bring in more impact and to make a compelling case and then and thereby we can influence the regulators and who's going to adopt, you know, what we are thinking about. I think you're spot on I think also there is a level I mean there's a, you know, one of the amazing things about and I'm I wish I had more of a engineering background and I, you know, could could code stuff and have fun with building cool things I just get to support teams that do have those skill sets. But you know I think that you think about, you know, the level of responsibility for anyone who's building something new and, you know, I'm not saying come to propeller but, you know, if you're thinking about building something, you know, checking, checking with your CPA is probably a good start to say, we're checking with an attorney is a good start for, you know, a responsible entrepreneur as well. I go to consensus I go to main net every year. Let's go to eat Denver. That's one of my favorite places to go. In part, you know when the world was falling apart last in this past March, walking around seeing kids in the dev houses, you know, not not giving carrying a lick on what the price of ETH was. I was also having conversations a year before with this is the same conversation over and over again with, you know, that was kind of the everybody was hot on spinning up a Dow and, you know, Dallas were going to be the solution to all of our world's corporate governance issues. But everyone, you know, so what are you doing I'm building a Dow. Oh, that's great. What does it do well, fill in the blank. Where are you guys based where you domicile. Oh, we're nowhere we're everywhere we're not incorporating, you know, and that was, you know, again it just to me, number one that is just irresponsible because they're going to be taxed and taxed and unlawful liability but it's you know it shows that the irresponsibility of folks who can just build stuff and put it out into the world. So I think that you know I think there is, you know, providing the easier on ramps to understanding what they have to do is absolutely I think part of, you know, part of what this is about. Sorry. It's unmuted so maybe ask something to add. Yeah, how do you verify the content, the content value of wallets need yourself or you use that body vendors to. Okay, so I guess us as propeller we use this. So the sub ledgers are essentially the you basically load wallets into the sub ledgers and the sub ledgers will not only pull the accurate balances out but then they're also going to identify all the transactions let's say within the given a given month. So, have reliably on sub ledgers and these subs, you know, this is bit wave this is crypto this is trades integral these are all the, those are probably the four leading sub ledgers tax bit has a product that's coming out soon as well. Yeah, I'm just do the reason why I'm asking is more and more now you're getting zero knowledge proof based confidential assets and where you can just get the value directly from the wallet and that's a thank you for mentioning that that's a that's an interesting take. I mean you're still going to be. Yeah, I'm sorry. One more time. I said you're still going to be getting values, but through zero notes proof rather than looking at the actual addresses and so on. Yeah, I mean, so there's, I can opine on this I don't have an answer. I think it's a good point I think the questions I would ask is, you know, the, and by the way this is, you know, everything I'm sharing and what soda is this is, you know, I'd say the first order is, this is for internal management ops to do their job. You know, as you start, you know, expanding this out into what you want to be sharing with the public that can be pared down. Regardless, you're still going to need to be able to track your cost basis for tax purposes, and you're still going to, there's going to absolutely going to in this ties back to, to Michael's question. You know, there's still going to be a need to do the accounting for it and again I need to. I'm not, I need to dig in a little bit more but one way or the other, if you're transacting anything on chain that still is going to have to hit your P&L, and it's still going to be tracked on your balance sheet so I'm just curious on the side track I mean, I don't know whether you have come across the wallets and Z cash in them. No, I have, we have not and you know I think for the most part, you know, our clients are, you know, I'd say largely defining calling them web, you know, they're using blockchain they're using tokens to to build on as a technology as a technology primitive have not come across the cash in in in our client base. I'll just, I'll just stop there. Yeah, we are rapidly approaching the end of the hour, but I have a feeling that we can go on for another, you know, a few minutes. If there's interest from the folks on the ground. And anybody else looks like Robert McKay has unmuted. I don't know whether he wants to say anything. I guess, can you hear me. Yes. Excellent. Yeah, I just, I was kind of wondering, would it not maybe make sense to actually include some of the kind of blockchain identifiers like wallet addresses and potentially funding transactions and I guess again in the case of like zero which proofs some kind of like cryptographic proof in the actual statement of digital assets itself, because at the moment, nothing that's actually in there is in any way verifiable. You're basically relying on the auditors I suppose to have done their, or I guess the sub ledger companies to have done things properly but Sorry, first of all, excellent question. And I was going to actually go if you go into and I apologize I'm going to have to hop off in six minutes I just bought five minutes internally but within with. So if you actually go into the document that we shared on the first page we actually this is my screen still being shared by chance. Yeah, I can see it. Okay, if you could see. Okay, so the full statement digital assets actually has wallet addresses over to the right here so if you go into the actual document, there is a section where the addresses exist. Again, this is, you know, this is really used number one by the folks who have access to the wallets the CFO the controller. So, number one, this is, you do have the addresses, it gets a little bit squirrely if you're dealing with a custodian. So, but basically there are internal references that we would be listing out there. Let me see if I can actually pull up that that schedule. And in terms of getting in and showing the actual trend to the transaction level. And that is again actually, you know, if you were going back to the conversation we had regarding the sub ledgers, all of the transaction data is is captured in the sub ledger so it is a, it can get big and messy and unruly to see all the transactions but it's, it's essentially a double click away from from this and I don't know if you can see if this is making sense here but it's a little bit small but yeah. So essentially this is, you know, this is really the full breakout so you'd have, you know, the address ID or, or any kind of internal reference for if it's if it's held by third party custody service. And the way that we think about it to so and sorry we're jumping between schedules here, but you know, the data exists, whether it's, you know, held, held in custody, or if itself hosted, all of that feeds into the sub ledger so the sub ledger if it's our company, you know, we have access to the wallets we have access to the sub ledger is aggregating all of this and really ultimately it's a sub ledger that, you know, spits this out and gives us, you know, the data, not in this clean format in, you know, it shows every transaction, you basically can pull up the, the master ledger and any of these things over the course of a month, you know, you can have a million lines of transactions that need to get basically summarized into this so this is kind of the first step and you know, and then, you know, as you want to understand, you know, what what is going on in any of these wallets. So that's what the sub ledger is there for. I said one quick question. You mentioned a few times, a number of these sub ledger companies, but it was quite fast and I didn't really catch them at all. And I actually never even heard of this entire industry so I don't know if you could just repeat them again like a bit more slowly. Of course, of course bit wave is crypto. Yeah. Integral. I think I actually have heard of those days. Trace. Trace. Tax bit has, they've got a product that's going to be coming out as well. Can we share this, can we share this presentation on the meeting page so that Robert can get all that information from there. Not just Robert, but all of us who want to participate. Since this is an open call. Absolutely how what's the best do you want me to just type type them in. No, no, no, just send send us the presentation. Oh, the deck. Yeah, I happy to. Yeah, I think in, and the deck is really a summary of the white paper I realized that I realized that that's 31 pages of crypto accounting that my mother hasn't even gotten through yet so I will I'll share the deck as soon as we get off. Yes, and also, I will share your, I mean your address is known. So, maybe they can ask questions. I've included in the chat the list of the sub ledgers along with their Twitter and links. I've also included the color industries and as well so I guess that if you want to grab that's maybe an included. I will, I will normally expose the chat on the meeting page. And the, and also the recording, because these two things are important for people who want to dig deeper. It's always a very delicate task here when you we have about one hour to balance between the details questions and something that is more in the, you know, on a strategic side, or, let's say, global or overall side. That's always a challenge and you're coming to the end of your time here Sam I understand. And my thanks to you. We, we can still extend the meeting a little more even if Sam is disappeared. So that's Thank you all and I so I also just dropped. I believe the, the presentation is should have read. Yeah, so, let me know if there's any issue getting that and I'll, you know, more than happy to. Yeah, believe me, we'll be in touch. I appreciate everyone's time today and please reach out to me directly with questions. Happy to hop on the calls. I am out next week for the holiday but really appreciate everyone's time and patients with this. And Sam, this is Michael again and I'm very thrilled by what you shared and then I believe that there's a way we can design the system over to be making more adaptable, regardless, you know, how regulation changes. We can make it more adaptable, you know, to what required of the environment needs and then so that we can make the system okay to be robust and strong, you know. So I would love to further talk with you and try to see that you know how we can collaborate, you know, to, to make a very strong idea or framework, you know that we can use to to persuade the regulators and also to work with the IT people in order to make it be added. So, I'm, I'm giving you my, my contacts here. How may I get a hold of it will be in the meeting page like I said, and I will send it to send it to Sam. Okay. Okay, good. I'd love to talk with you further. I look for Michael again, maybe week after after Thanksgiving would be terrific but I'll look forward to being in touch and appreciate your comments appreciate everyone's time and we'll look forward to being in touch thank you all so much and have a have a good holiday. Thank you. Anyway, we can have a couple of moments here if people have comments or anything else to say. I'm going to take off as well. Thanks gentlemen. Thank you. All right, thank you. Anyway, fascinating meeting. I wanted to talk about continuous audit, which is a big thing. And also xbrl, which is a, which is a standard for reporting. And any standard that takes into account all this has to be able to provide that output. But, you know, since the main presenters have left, unless you guys have something more to contribute on the topic. Let's call it a day. Is that good. All right then. Thank you.