 Tonight and this month's program is entitled conserving reptiles and amphibians, a main focus with Greg LeClaire, who is already on the screen there. Greg has been paying attention to reptiles and amphibians for a long time from an early age. According to all the research that's been done, he's at the age of six. He received a nature encyclopedia and he proceeded to devour it and moved on to other books and resources and proceeded to spend as much time as he could outdoors in the woods looking for creatures and other parts of nature. And then eventually he got a little bigger and went on to Unity College and studied wildlife biology there and has continued his passion for reptiles and amphibians as we're going to find out about tonight. We're delighted to have him here tonight. At the end, we will be having a Q&A session. So if during the course of the program, if you have any questions, anything comes to mind, just click on the Q&A button at the lower center of your screen and type it in there at any time during the program. And we'll do our best to get an answer out of Greg at the end of the program. So, thank you very much Greg. It's all yours. Delighted to have you here. All right. Well, thank you so much. I'm very excited to be doing a presentation after God probably six months of not having done a presentation. So I'll get the screen share set up here. All right. Can you see that bill? Yes. All right, solid. So again, thank you everyone for coming today. I'm going to be talking to you about my favorite creatures on the planet. And that is the reptiles and amphibians. So again, my name is Greg. And if you have any questions, please ask away. I'm not going to be able to talk about everything that I want to tonight. But if something peaks your interest, please ask because I would love to talk your ear off about it. And by myself, you heard already, I've been in Maine my whole life. I got my bachelor's degree in wildlife biology up at Unity, and currently I'm a master's student at the University of Maine, where I study ecology, primarily the conservation of turtles that's my thesis currently. And of course, my interest is reptiles and amphibians which we collectively refer to as herbs. So the study of reptiles and amphibians is called herpetology so that's where that term comes from. These two photos were actually pretty funny. When I was putting this together, I didn't realize the parallels between the two. So that's me about kindergarten age holding one of my first captured garter snakes in Litchfield. And then this is me a year or two ago in Mississippi handling an eight foot long coach whip snake as part of a research project. We're both wearing red both handling snakes both wearing hats. I thought it was very coincidental. So before we get too far into things I want to make sure that we all know what reptiles and amphibians are because while I'm sure many of us know many of us might have misconceptions or perhaps not know. So, amphibians were the first vertebrates to come on to land in the evolutionary tree so a vertebrate is an animal that has a backbone and you can feel that in your neck. That's your spine. So they were the first things the spines to crawl on to land and because they were that bridge they have this heavy reliance on water. So their skin is very thin, which allows water to enter their body very easily. In fact, frogs they have what's called a drink patch where they sit in a puddle and can drink but just by sitting in it. But that also means they can dry out very quickly so they can't be too far from water, otherwise they face some pretty big issues. Not only that but they also depend on water for reproduction so laying eggs in the water that are very jelly like and loose they would dry out very quickly without water. And in many cases the young need water to survive in for weeks to months so tadpoles for example needed to swim through as they develop into an adult frog. Whereas salamanders usually look like just a miniature version of the adult salamander but actually have gills so they need to be breathing oxygen through the water. They're called also called ectothermic, which that in more common terms is called cold blooded. But when we say cold blooded we don't mean that their blood is actually cold. We mean that they are actually the temperature of the environment around them. So this is a good and a bad thing as well. It's good because it saves tons of energy. So tadpoles don't need to eat several times a day, they could even potentially go weeks or months without eating, whereas we need to eat three square meals a day in order to keep our metabolisms going and keep our body temperature up. But the downside to that is that they can't go into places that are too cold because they just can't provide the heat needed for that so they're pretty limited in their ranges and when they can be active. Now as for the types of amphibians out there, there are three major types, two of which we have in Maine. So we have frogs and salamanders, nine species of frogs, eight species of salamander, plus one that's been introduced, which sadly didn't find a place in my presentation today. But if you want to learn about probably the kookiest herpetology story Maine has, please ask about the introduced salamander species. And then there's what's called the Sicilians, which are worm-like amphibians that only live in the tropics and we won't find them here. As for the reptiles, they came just after the amphibians and they were much better adapted to land than the amphibians were. So they have thicker scaly skin that can hold the water much better than the thin very permeable skin of amphibians. And their eggs also have a hard shell, so it's usually kind of leathery and pliable, but it holds water whereas the amphibian eggs are almost nothing but water with just like a little bit of stuff mixed in. And there are some that give live birth and we'll talk about that a little later, but most of them lay eggs. Again, they're all ectothermic except for a few like the leatherback sea turtle produces a little bit of heat for itself. And there are five different types of reptiles out there, only two of which we have in Maine, so we have snakes and turtles. There are also lizards, crocodilians, and what's called a tuatara, which is a very lizard-like animal that only lives in New Zealand. However, it's more closely related to dinosaurs as far as I understand it than it is to lizards. So we have nine species of snake in Maine plus one that's recently extirpated. Extirpation, if you're not familiar with the term, means that it's extinct in the area but can be found elsewhere in the world, so no longer found in Maine. And as for turtles, it's a little bit more complicated. We have six species plus one that's been introduced, plus one that is likely extirpated. It's a bit wishy-washy because people release their pet turtles in the wild. So I want to start you all off essentially where I started years ago. I'm going to take you back to the early 2000s where I was about seven years old on a warm rainy night in spring and you should be hearing frog audio here in just a second, so don't jump. So hopefully you just heard the sound of spring peepers and that's my favorite sound of all time. And that was the backdrop for me for one of my first experiences with reptiles and amphibians where my family and I were coming home from a family outing and we're pulling into the driveway, it's raining outside its night. And we're walking up to our door and we came across this fella. This is a big old female spotted salamander. She was full of eggs and headed to a local pool to mate. We'll talk about that in just a second. But spotted salamanders are amazing and you can imagine what a seven year old thinks the first time they see one and perhaps you remember that. And if you're anything like me you were flipping rocks and logs everywhere you went looking for salamanders. And I had never seen this before. That's because first of all she was probably migrating in from somewhere outside where I looked but they also spend a huge chunk of their lives underground and much farther than just the surface where like your log. So this gal showed up and of course you know I'm amazed like this thing is huge and it's black and it's got bright yellow spots. And some amazing things I learned about this animal recently is the fact that this is the only photosynthetic vertebrate on the planet which I know that might not sound too exciting to most people but what that means is that this animal can actually turn sunlight into energy, which no other vertebrate animal we know of can do that. So, as far as we know it only has that superpower when it's a baby so a tadpole of sorts or a larvae rather. And of course as an adult for an animal that only comes out at night and lives underground for almost entire life it wouldn't really be worth having this power to turn sunlight into food, but it's an amazing superpower nonetheless to help them grow faster as young. This spotted salamander was likely on the way to something that looks like this, which is a vernal pool and these are amazing pieces of habitat that we have here in Maine. Vernal pools are a seasonal body of water where essentially they fill up with snow and ice melt in the spring as well as rain, and then usually by about July or August are drying out. So basically it's just a puddle that lasts for a few months. The fact that it doesn't last all year long it means that fully aquatic animals can't last there so things like fish for example. So automatically this kicks out a bunch of other animals that they're competing with be it for space or resources or even just trying to avoid being eaten by which fish would love to eat you know frogs or salamanders. But not only are these great spots to go, they're also biodiversity hotspots here in Maine. So not only are there species like salamanders and frogs using them to breed in. But there's also what's called the fairy shrimp which is an amazing little animal about this big if you've ever seen like sea monkeys or Brian shrimp, that's essentially what they are. And they just like float around and have a year to live, but the cool thing is they'll lay their eggs in the soil, and those eggs can last hundreds of years waiting for water to hit again. And that could mean if you have a vernal pool in your backyard with fairy shrimp, those shrimp might have been laid in the 1500s or 1400s before Europeans even arrived on the continent. So very cool to have these around and they provide plants usually a little bit earlier for herbivores great food source for things like raccoons all around very important piece of habitat in Maine. And if you look into a vernal pool at just the right time, you might catch a scene that looks a little bit like this where there are a bunch of spotted salamanders swimming around like cute little spotted crocodiles. But usually you won't find males and females in there at the same time. So males will show up first and leave little tiny what's called spermatophores which are little white dots. And that's essentially just a sperm packet for the female to come find later. So the females show up, and then they find a sperm packets and then they'll lay egg masses that look like this, and they'll attach them to vegetation or sticks. And these cool little kidney shaped alien looking egg masses where some of them can be clear some of them can be like a milky white like this one, and then others can be green, which is that start of that superpower of where it can photosynthesize. So very cool. The color seems to depend on genetics as far as I understand, and the eggs themselves are also food for other animals as well. So this is a dragonfly nymph right here, starting to make a snack out of the egg jelly. Even the eggs are an important piece of the puzzle here. And the spotted salamander is not alone on these nights, which I'm sure many of you have noticed when it gets to a warm rainy night and spring the area can be covered in amphibians moving. You might see something like the red effed phase of the Eastern Newt moving about, or the wood frog, which is another true vernal pool breeder and we'll talk about them more later. The blue spotted salamander, which is an amazing species. I could talk all day about their genetics if I had time but ultimately their genomes are bigger than humans, they interbreed with other species very easily they have all female populations that are cloning themselves. These are the pieces of concern here in Maine and they're a little challenging to find. So if you do find them, kudos to you. And then of course there's the spring peeper that is just about everywhere on these nights. And these nights because there's so much activity going on, we call them big nights, it's just a huge amount of activity going on the conditions are just right for amphibians to move. So in this world, an amphibian would move to its vernal pool, essentially like this fairly straightforward maybe having to climb over a rock or a log or budget predator to right. But in the modern world, what we're seeing more of is this very nice sports cars are running over our amphibians. In sports cars roads are a huge issue for migrating amphibians and just to give you some context there was a study in Canada where just studying a single segment of road over the course of four years, it counted 30,000 amphibians killed by cars. And to put that into another perspective for you a any given amphibian crossing the road will face about a 20% chance of getting hit by a car. And we'll discuss if there is more traffic, and also if the animals larger and if it's slower. So something like a spotted salamander has a much higher chance of being hit by a car than something like a toad or a wood frog. And we'll talk about that 100% mortality, actually right here, because things like spotted salamanders they're so large and slow, there's actually been a few spots where some declines have been noted in spotted salamander populations. There's more in like suburban Massachusetts where these things are being noted, but it is certainly a possibility for even like rural Maine if you get cars coming through at just the right time. And sadly, the more mobile these amphibians are, the more likely they're going to get hit by cars, so our vernal pool breeders are at higher risk than something like a bullfrog where they just spend their entire life in a pond, never really having to leave, where their babies might not leave to find a new territory, whereas vernal pool breeders are crossing the road once to get to the pool, again to leave it and then a third time where their babies are leaving the pool. And that's assuming there's only one road to cross where there could be multiple potentially. So how do we go about reducing amphibian road deaths. For one, the most obvious way would be to either reduce or more intelligently develop areas. So there are plenty of ways that are coming out now and how to develop in more harmony with nature. But of course, slowing down development is huge for all species birds, I'm sure you're well aware of our very well threatened by habitat destruction and development. But the other idea, there's multiple ideas out there but the other idea that I want to present to you today is a conservation model that is probably out there in all sorts of different forms but my form rhymes so I like it more. It's the collect, protect and connect model. So what I mean by this is step one, we have to collect data on where these migrations are happening. So, for one, where are there a lot of amphibians migrating pieces of concern, is there a significant mortality going on is there a declining population. And based on that information, we can designate areas to protect and luckily here in Maine we have what's called the main significant vernal pool program, which essentially that means you can get a vernal pool certified as being worthy of protection. If it has a certain number of spotted salamander eggs, a certain number of wood frog eggs, any presence of blue spotted salamander or any presence of very shrimp. So once it gets that special designation, anytime there needs to be development within about 250 feet of that pool, there needs to be special consultation given to make sure that pool is not significantly impacted, which is excellent. However, protecting natural areas is only worth so much if we can't connect them and there's several reasons for that. So migrating amphibians obviously they're probably moving between natural areas and might have to cross over a road, but then also climate change is a big one right and not just amphibians but all sorts of species have to shift their home ranges to respond to the climate. As well as genetics, there's amazing studies out there that have shown that spotted salamanders and wood frogs have genetically distinct populations on either side of a road because they can't cross to breed with each other. That's a pretty extreme example but it does happen and it's something that's well known in like California or Nevada for like mountain lions and big horn sheep. It happens right here in Maine as well. So connecting these natural areas looks a lot like this. This is a salamander tunnel that was the first of its kind in North America that's in Amherst, Massachusetts. And essentially a migrating amphibian will find this wall and hopefully follow it until it reaches the tunnel and it crosses through the tunnel until it reaches the other side safely. So it's pretty cool that there are tunnels specifically built for migrating amphibians. Whether or not they work seems to depend a lot on careful planning and design, but there are some that have been fairly effective in which I believe this one has been. But what I want to talk to you most about today is the collection part of this because you can all participate in collecting the data through my citizen science project called the big night. Obviously referring to the nights where these amphibians move a lot, but essentially you get to go out on these big nights with your friends and family and collect data on amphibian migrations which is tons of fun. I've been doing it since I was a kid. And essentially you're collecting data again on where are they migrating. Where is there significant mortality going on and all of this data gets contributed to planning in the future. So, potentially where would a salamander crossing go in the future. And when I say anybody can participate I mean literally anybody. If you are three or four years old if you are 99 years old if you're an active scientist or military or a student or whatever you are. This is something that we're trying to make accessible to everybody and we're actually doing what we can right now to make sure it's accessible to different communities, especially anybody who feels like they might be separated from nature, especially, you know within cities. We want to be able to bring that to you, as well as people with disabilities we're trying to find ways to make sure that this is accessible to them. So, you can participate literally anywhere in the states we have over 300 sites designated and we put up new ones every year. So if you know of a new site that we haven't registered yet you can always tell us where that site is and we'll put it there and you can go monitor it so even if there's not one near you, you can make your own. And so far since we started just two years ago we're going on to our third season now we've rescued just over 1700 amphibians and counted over 2000. And that's great, but we have big shoes to fill there's another project in King New Hampshire that just I can't remember if it's rescued or recorded the 50,000th amphibian they've been going since the 2000s. But what was really cool this year is the fact that we were still able to keep the project going despite COVID because it was outside and we can maintain social distance and we were in small groups. We were able to detect a just about a 50% decline in amphibian mortality because there were so many less cars on the road. So that was really cool to see and something that we're actively trying to get published now. So if you're interested in joining. Feel free to check us out on Facebook that's the title of our group we're working on getting a website but for now this is our main mode of communication. Obviously not much happening right now but once springtime starts getting closer you'll see things about where to find trainings for volunteers or like where to send your data or questions or cool pictures of what people find so feel free to join up and I'll approve your request to join. So we're going to hop onto the other side of the vernal pool and meet this gallant noble fellow who is also extremely awkward looking and awkward sounding. This is the wood frog and when I say awkward sounding they sound more like chickens to me than they do actual frogs they kind of click. And though they be awkward, they be amazing. This is an unreal species of frog it has the largest latitudinal range of any amphibian in the world. They can be found as far south as Alabama and as far north as the Arctic Circle in Alaska, and they owe that ability to the fact that they can actually freeze about 60% solid. Other frog species can do it as well but I guess none do it as well as the wood frog. And that ability is actually being studied by NASA to learn about whether or not we can explore deep space by freezing ourselves to last long journeys. And besides being, you know, really cool and being able to freeze solid they also have amazing camouflage I mean you can see that they're very leaf colored and the facts that they're even leaf shaped is amazing camouflage but they even act like leaves when they feel threatened so if you were to poke one or get too close to one and they don't like it. They'll kind of flatten themselves out like this guy does here and they'll actually flatten themselves out even a little bit more hoping that you think he's just a leaf and that you pass on. I've likely passed hundreds of wood frogs in the woods that I've never noticed. The only time I ever see them is when they actually hop through the woods or find them on a road like this guy which posture is good but it is not a good place to pretend to be a leaf. So what I want to talk to you about today with wood frogs is an amazing study that was conducted by some folks up at the University of Maine in Orno. So this is going to be some findings from a study by Christine Hoffman, Tom Hastings, Mac Hunter and Aram Calhoun. So thank you all to to all those who I talked to you about this project and are allowing me to talk about it for them. I was not involved in this project. So I'm just sharing their findings. So what they wanted to study was how wood frogs move through the environment to reach their upland habitats for like the summer and winter and then how they reach their vernal pools, and especially in the context of a suburban environment. So what they did was they captured a bunch of wood frogs, and they attached these radio transmitters to them with a belt so there's a belt that goes around his waist here. So a piece of flashing is just to make it easier to find them on nights when they're tracking them. So that will give a signal that they can track and follow to see where these guys move. And this is a map of one of their study areas. This is off of Mount Hope Avenue in Bangor. And you can see this is where they captured all of the amphibians. I hope you can see my mouse here in this corner. So this is a vernal pool where they were all tagged and they tracked them as they migrated from the pool back up to their upland home ranges for the rest of the year. And you can see that I'll move generally in the same direction, all heading to this little tiny patch of woods right here. And while you can't see the entire picture, this is really a small patch of woods. It really would only take like one more offshoot of a street or a few more houses to completely decimate what's left of this wood frog habitat. I'm going to talk to you specifically about a few of these journeys here. So a few wood frogs will make this entire journey in a night. And by the way, apparently, the size of the wood frog and the distance that travels is apparently comparable to that of the Wildebeest migration of the Serengeti. So you have an amazing migration going on right under your nose, possibly right through your yard that you just might not always be cognizant of. But so to talk about a few of these individuals. A few of them, obviously made this in a straight shot so like this yellow guy here probably one or two nights and I had a pretty quick travel. But most of them spent a lot of time hunkering down in people's yards and waiting for better conditions to move. And we'll talk about what made a good yard in a second, but we can talk about what made a bad yard first, and you can see that not every line made it and that's because the frog died on its way. So for example, this light green one here. I don't know the specific story on this individual but I do know that several individuals were dead because of cats and I'm sure that you guys being in the Audubon society know very well how bad cats are for wildlife when they're outdoors. I'm killing billions and billions of animals per year. Frogs are part of that. And then many also died under the blades of lawn mowers because they stopped in yards that didn't have appropriate habitat for them to hang out in. So we're very exposed and ended up getting nailed by lawn mower. So this one could have been a lawn mower it could have been a cat I'm not entirely sure. But the one that I do know is this red line right here that zig zags and ends up in this person's pool. I don't know why you would have your pool uncovered in early April in Maine, but this person apparently did and this frog ended up landing in the pool, not being able to escape and then likely either drowning or more likely succumbing to chemical poisoning from the chlorine in the pool. So if you have pools, keep them covered until April is over. I don't foresee anybody swimming in April anyway, but just for the sake of the frogs and salamanders keep it covered. Okay, so as for the ones that had the several day migrations and the yards they stopped in, what made the difference for them was whether or not people had planted shrubs in their yard. Because shrubs as it turns out are amazing pieces of stopover habitat from migrating amphibians, because they hold moisture super well they're super well shaded so they're not going to dry out or overheat anytime soon. But they're also very well protected from things like predators and lawn mowers and you know all sorts of other things going on, and they can wait there relatively safely until conditions were good to move again so until the next night which might have been rainy night which might have been a few days away or days away. So plant shrubs, all of these backyards were once wildlife habitat, and you can turn it into wildlife habitat again super easily I mean you've probably heard about planting native plants in your yard for birds. Same idea goes for herbs, you can plant shrubs or other species that will help provide shelter for things like migrating amphibians. What I want you to be aware of is that if you have pools on your property there are special things you can do to make sure that pool stays healthy. So this is not a vernal pool or at least most likely not but it is very near a significant piece of amphibian history and main. Essentially, we'll talk about the important piece in a second, but if you have a pool, and you expose it by removing all the trees and shrubs around the edges, you have given it more exposure to the sun so it's going to dry out faster and also be much warmer. For one that's going to attract other species like both frogs and green frogs which is fine, but then you're going to have overcrowding and that plus the heat means disease transfer is going to be crazy. So in 2013 there was a recorded die off of amphibians at a pond in Bronzewick very similar to the one I just showed you where in 24 hours 200,000 frogs were recorded to die. That's through a disease called Ronovirus. It's one of the deadliest wildlife diseases on the planet. It doesn't affect people so don't get too concerned but be concerned for the amphibians. This is a natural thing by the way, sometimes you just get disease outbreaks at ponds like this. But if we were to start doing this to our vernal pools making them warm and attracting other species and overcrowding them. This would be something I would consider more of a problem. Right now amphibians can handle die offs every now and then, but if we start exposing all of our vernal pools and not taking proper care of them, this could actually become a major issue. So, we are about halfway through the presentation now we are switching gears to the reptiles and we're actually going to talk about my favorite animals on the planet, which are the turtles and I don't know if you can actually see but I'm wearing a turtle shirt right now. For one of my research projects that I've been involved in turtles. As amazing as they are they are one of the most threatened groups of animals on the planet. So over half of them are threatened with extinction in some way shape or form, or are already extinct in the wild or extinct in general since we found them. If you want to know what threatens turtles the answer is essentially all of the above. If we're talking about Maine specifically habitat loss is something that we need to be cognizant up for something like the spotted turtle. This is a beautiful species mostly found in the southern corner of the state that is limited to ephemeral wetlands and peat bogs which are a little bit in short supply towards that end of the state. So, you can easily wipe out a spotted turtle population just by developing it with like a single plant or factory or whatever you know might be developing in the area. These are habitat specialists where something like a painted turtle on the right is a generalist and will really use just about anything habitat destruction is not as big of a deal for them. But then there's also things to worry about like roads and over predation and even people collecting them which we'll talk about in a second. But the reason that they're so easily endangered by everything is the fact that they have extremely long life histories where it can take them anywhere between five and 18 years to become reproductively active. So for example snapping turtles and wood turtles like the species here. It can take them anywhere between like 15 to 18 years in the state to become reproductively active. So if you take out one adult from a population it can take years possibly a decade or more for another turtle to show up to take that turtle's place. And that's especially concerning when you consider the fact that anywhere between 95% and 99% of every year's babies don't make it through their first year. So when we get eaten by predators either as eggs or as babies that get hit by cars they get lost on their way. There's just so many things that can go wrong for a baby turtle and for it to make it through that first year is a huge leap, and then to make it through 17 more. I mean there's just so much that a turtle has to go through in order to survive. So it's super easy to make a turtle population plummet. They're also sensitive to turtles getting taken out of the population but they're also sensitive to like people coming in as well. So for example, again, the wood turtle. There have been studies that have shown that just having light recreation like canoeists and fishermen was enough to cause wood turtles to say I'm out of here I'm going to go find another place to go. Not every species is like that but usually a species of concern like the wood turtle are quite sensitive. Now added the fact that everybody loves them to a point that it's a problem and turtles are really in trouble. So for example animals love them for food. There are sites that I've seen during my research where an entire years worth of young were eaten in a night because of a single skunk. That has happened three years in a row at a single site for wood turtles. It's about a dozen nests that the skunk hits and it's like the night that they're laid that skunk shows up and eats all of them. So animals love them for that reason but then people love them also for food but also as pets and we'll talk about that in just a second. But first I want to before we get too far into talking about people loving turtles too much. I want to show you all how to help turtles and roads because roads are another huge issue for these guys. Usually when you see a turtle and a road which I'm sure many of you have you're looking at a breeding aged female looking for a place to lay her eggs. You can imagine the just impact that has when a turtle gets hit. So hopefully this video I put together a year ago is instructional and informative for you. And hopefully you can hear it as well so we'll just watch it for a minute or two and learn about how to help snapping turtles across the road. Now to move a snapping turtle the best way to do it that I like to tell people turtles have these little handlebars right here above the back legs and you can pick them up like so and move them. But if you have a snapping turtle that's really big like this one that can be really hard on your wrists. So the other way I like to tell people is to lift up the back tail like this slide your hand under the belly and there you go you have like a nice little turtle platter that can rest against your body. Now some safety tips because snapping turtles can obviously bite very hard. You do not want to go past the midpoint on the shell right here if you do you could be in the bite zone. And of course that wouldn't be something that you want it's not something the turtle wants. So just don't go past the half point of the shell. Their head can come very far around as you can see right there. So we're going to go ahead and move this girl. We're going to move her across the street. We want to look out for our safety first. There are fast moving cars here so we pulled off on the side of the road with our blinkers on where cars can see us. And I'm going to look both ways before crossing. And one thing to keep in mind we're not going to spin this turtle around to make sure that she's facing the same direction that she was traveling. So she was headed this way. Let's go ahead and move her. Alright we got one car coming. So we'll wait. I know sweetheart look at you. You are a big turtle. Another thing to keep in mind snapping turtles are not going to be helpful for what you do for them. They're going to think you're a predator trying to eat them. So she's been scratching me this whole time. My knuckles are bleeding but it's all worth it to save a turtle. She can lay up to 50 eggs. So saving one you might be saving 50. So there's a slump over here. She's going to be on her way. We're going to leave her be and say good luck to her. And that is how you help a snapping turtle across the road. Okay hopefully you're all able to hear and see that well. And if you have any questions about how to move a snapping turtle I'm happy to demonstrate again. But if you do want to get more involved with helping turtles and roads there's actually a great distance science project with main Audubon. So hopefully you've heard about it. It's the main turtle roadkill survey. So it works very similar to big night where you adopt a site to essentially patrol and look for turtles and when you do find them you could probably help them but most perhaps most importantly record the fact that there are turtle turtles that you've been working on. So if you want to learn more about it check it out on their website. I don't want to accidentally tell you something wrong about it so I'm not going to go into too much detail here. So the most important piece though I keep referencing that I'm going to talk about people loving turtles too much and we're going to get into that now through this species which is again the wood turtle. I don't have much emphasis on the species but I've been working with it for about five years now so it's hard for me to avoid the species. But this is an amazing animal. Most of you probably haven't seen the species in the wild before. I certainly wouldn't have if I wasn't doing research on it. It took me about a year and a half to find my first wood turtle after searching for state surveys. The species in so many ways. I mean look at how beautiful this animal is. It's got a sculpted shell that looks like it's made out of wood with gold leaf inlays and then their skin is this bright orange with this amazing golden eye iris here. And not to mention a personality to match the color. I mean every wood turtle seems to have its own. Some are behaving. Some are really sassy and others are very calm. But they're also extremely intelligent and in fact are regarded as perhaps one of the most intelligent reptiles on the planet. They can navigate mazes better than rats. They have an uncanny ability to find their way around and they might even be able to recognize things like schedules maybe even people. There's all sorts of cool pieces about wood turtles that just make them fascinating. And this is a habitat specialist. You will only find them in slow moving sandy or gravelly bottom streams in Maine with a lot of woodland cover around the stream. So all these things come together to make them almost too valuable. In fact they're valued as pets through wildlife trade be illegal or more commonly for this species illegal. So illegal wildlife trade is a huge problem for wildlife worldwide. And usually when we think of illegal wildlife trade we're thinking of like rhinos for their horns and elephants for their ivory. But it occurs here in the United States as well including here in Maine so for example moose meat, bear gall bladders. Those are things that have been harvested from Maine as well as turtles. So this is the third largest illegal industry in the world only behind illegal drugs illegal drugs and illegal guns, potentially on par with human trafficking. And this can take place as either living animals or dead animals slash their parts. Living animals are usually more for pets, occasionally for food whereas their parts are usually show pieces or used in traditional medicines. So there's all sorts of functionalities of illegal wildlife trade and just to give you an idea of how big of an issue this is just for turtles in the eastern United States. I'm going to run you through a few recent incidences from the past few years. New York, nearly 300 threatened and endangered turtles plus 20 boxes of their eggs were seized. There's the shore over 3000 diamond back Terrapins a listed species were seized from a guy who was a writer or a therapist I can remember he would collect them while he would go on runs. State College Pennsylvania a student was to make about four or five times his tuition costs by selling 80 turtles to an Asian market. And there was a major ring that was busted with over 200 turtles on hand, Florida over 4000 turtles seized on hand. And then this one is really interesting. In Ontario, there was a scientist who published the location of their study population. And there was a 70% decline in that population after they published that data. And they're guessing that because they published that location poachers got a handle of it and went and cleaned out that population to sell them in a pet trade. So, if you work with threatened endangered species, please be cognizant of publishing that information online. We make everybody sign legal documents to say they won't share location information anytime they come out on the project with us. And if they do we have the legal ability to sue them because they signed a paper saying that they wouldn't do that. So please be aware of that if you're involved with threatened endangered species. Now what turtle specifically, there were over 40 that were being sold on the Portland old port, both for food and pets back in the 90s. And the year after there was 50 confiscated that made it all the way down to Virginia that were harvested up here in Maine, all being sold as pets. Truth be told, there's probably more going on under our noses that we're not aware of, hopefully in smaller sizes like I mentioned before, I mean a single turtle or two turtles being taken from a population can be catastrophic. I can't imagine what 50 or 40 turtles being taken would have done to a population. And just to give you some context to things I've seen in person, every couple of months the Manchester or New England reptile expo occurs in Manchester, New Hampshire. New Hampshire is a bit of a wild west when it comes to wild animal laws so you can own a lot more exotic species in New Hampshire, whereas states like Maine and Massachusetts there's very little you can own. So people usually leave the states that they are living in to go to these expos in New Hampshire to pick up a variety of exotic species that you couldn't get anywhere else. So the pancake tortoise which is the species that you're seeing here was being sold for $800 a pop and this is a critically endangered species from Kenya, where their primary threat being illegal wildlife trade collection for the pet trade, and they only produce one to two eggs per year. There are no known captive breeding populations that are pumping out enough tortoises to keep the pet trade satisfied, not to mention you can also count the number of rings on these tortoises shells to get an age estimate and this is probably you know a decade or two old turtle. So the fact that somebody potentially raised three of these turtles, just in their backyard and then decided to sell them, not very likely. And they do have varying ages to like this guy looks younger whereas this guy looks a little bit older. That's another sign that these are probably wild caught individuals and there was actually another vendor who was selling more pancake tortoises at this event, and I had never seen them at an expo before. The alligator snapping turtle also seems to regularly make appearances at these expos. So this is a species that's being proposed for listing under the Endangered Species Act here in the United States because of over collection for meat and pet trade. This is the second largest freshwater turtle in the world, usually coming in at about 150 pounds and the shell being probably about a big by the time that they finish growing. I feel of nobody who can properly care for a turtle that big in their own backyards or in their homes. I can't believe they sell these guys and not to mention every time I see them I always ask the vendor is that wild caught or is that kept in bread. Guess what, it's always wild caught and I can't believe they even tell me that but they do. So these animals are being pulled when they're potentially declining steeply due to collection and being sold as pets to people that probably can't feed them the proper diet or probably can't give them proper lighting. So they're going to develop a liver disease or calcium deficiency and have a short life. It's a sad situation. This is another photo of all the lizards being sold at these. As far as I know these are all legal species but just to give you an idea of quantity and then an idea of money to for species that are also legal. These are all ball pythons but $900 for this guy looks like $6,000 for the one back here. I mean, there's just so much money involved in the reptile trade. We start to understand like why people get involved in it but by we also have to start stepping up to it as well. This species of lizard is the Chinese cave gecko and it went extinct in the wild almost as soon as it was discovered and described because reptile enthusiasts love to collect what is new and own what is new. So as soon as it was described in science it went extinct in the wild, which is a pretty sad story, very popular in pet trade doing very well you can get them without much concern, even at PECO you can get them. But a sad story for the species and the loss. So how do we prevent poaching. I don't report anything suspicious and that would be to either inland fisheries and wildlife here in the state of Maine or to US Fish and Wildlife Service so a federal agency. But the most important thing is to be a responsible pet owner. So first of all know what you're buying is this animal endangered in any states is collection a threat to it. Is it even legal to own in my state and you can find out for Maine there's a list of species that you're allowed to own it's called the unrestricted species list so Google that up and you'll find it. And also be aware of fake advertisements people very commonly sell animals as captive bread when they're actually wild caught. So just keep that in mind. And the other important thing is that we need to encourage people to behave properly with wildlife, especially that there's so much power to do this through social media. So if you're interacting with an animal a lot and handling it a lot and showing that like the only way to connect with an animals by holding it other people are going to think the same thing. If you ever traveled abroad and took a picture with like a tiger cub at a like a roadside attraction or something. Those are likely animals that are involved in a legal wildlife trade and going to some sort of vendor like that only fuels the benefits of legal wildlife trade because they got to replace that with another tiger cub at some point so they got to find another tiger to exploit and yada yada so I just be smart about it and to give you some actual scientific proof that this is a thing. Another study that was done in 2011 where they photoshopped a chimpanzee onto different background so nothing or in an office or in a jungle sorry in a zoo or in a jungle and either with or without a shirt or with or without a person and they found that anytime it was in a building or wearing a shirt or with a person people were much more likely to think chimpanzees made good pets, whereas if they were in a zoo or by itself or not wearing a shirt or in the jungle, they were much more likely to think that it was either endangered or not a good pet. So how we represent wildlife really matters and that will actually come up again later. So we're at the end of our presentation now hopefully I'm not going too far or too close to time, but snakes are understandably one of the most controversial groups of reptiles out there, perhaps one of most controversial groups of animals on the planet. I love a phobia of snakes that is totally fine with me, my own mother has a terrible phobia which I believe my mom is in the audience today, and the technique that works for her which I think is a great technique is to name the snake as soon as you see it so if you're easily jumped and startled by snakes, like you lift something up and there's a snake just be like Penelope and suddenly that assigns it an identity and personality and you start connecting with it a little bit more. And I'm hoping that's something that you can all do by the end of this presentation. So snakes in Maine we have nine species and none of them are significantly venomous to people, at least currently so one species we did have was venomous to people. But we do have venomous species in the state that are not harmful to people so they use that venom for insects and we'll talk about that animal in a second. But you have nothing to worry about as far as bites here in the state, and a few important notes about snake behavior. One, there are no aggressive snakes in the world, however there are defensive snakes. There are no snakes that I know of that would willingly chase a person thinking that's a good idea. Snakes simply don't do that. Your many times this animal size and a swift blow to the head would kill it. So charging when you're an inch off the ground towards a thing that could look hundreds of feet tall to it. Makes no sense at all so usually what's happening is you are either in their way and they are trying to get to safety behind you. You just can't see where they're going and that's often the case as well. Don't forget these animals are right on the ground so it's sometimes hard to know what you're doing. So some snakes might try to bite or try to give you some warnings if you do handle them so if you're pushing your luck then you're you're in the snakes territory at that point. But the other important piece to know is that snakes of course have their place in our environment. So a lot of people will say snakes are great for pest control and while I agree I would like to at least give you the disclaimer that the scientific evidence for that is actually not as big as you might think. That's because snakes really can't eat that much they eat like one mouse a week and they're good. So there's only so much control a snake can do, but if you get a bunch of snakes, especially working in tandem with like Hawks and foxes and other species, you get a great puzzle working together to control pests. Now species like these little guys here these are full grown red belly snakes. They love those pregnant mamas. They are wonderful species to have in your garden. They love eating things like slugs and ants, so they can be great for protecting your plants. And not to mention snakes are great food for other species, especially things like birds. So they're a great source of protein. And one really cool thing I learned about is that snakes are actually even good seed dispersers because they eat animals that eat seeds and then when they poop that animal out they leave the seeds with it and leave the seeds in a new spot that they might have otherwise never gotten to. So all sorts of weird cool ways that snakes might work in our environment that we never thought of. And just to introduce you to a few of our snake species we have in the state we have the common garter snake which is probably the most commonly encountered species that we have here. Again this is a species that would rather run away and cause you any harm but if you do pick them up expect to get a smelly musk on your hands. It's a very cool species that comes in different patterns here it can be checkered it can be stripey can be brown it can be black it can be blue even all sorts of cool colors for this species. But the smooth green snake I think is my favorite in the beauty contest, just a gorgeous emerald green color, and they're actually sadly in decline throughout the range, probably because of habitat destruction and pesticide application. You can only find them in wet meadows, typically. So if you do have green snakes, you probably have a pretty important piece of habitat that you should try to keep that way. Very cool species also loves to eat insects. Ribbon snake is an actual species of concern here in the state. And I'm sure many of you are looking at this like, oh, I've seen a ribbon snake before. I'd be willing to bet that you're actually thinking of garter snakes because they have a very similar strappy pattern, but the way to identify them from a garter snake is this little white scale in front of the eye. That is the identifying mark for this species. So if you do happen to get one that's posing very nicely like this individual or even have it in hand. You look for that scale and you, if you see it, you've got a species of concern in your hand and that's very cool. There's also a habitat specialist usually hanging around swampy areas and also wet meadows. Black racers are only endangered snake in the states and it is only found in the southwestern corner, especially in the Sanford area. As far as I understand anyway, Sanford wells and so they like sandy shrubby habitats and are at the very northern edge of their range here in Maine. That's why they're endangered. They're just limited because they don't have much habitat to go to and they're just so far north that things are getting a bit too cold for them. But this is our largest snake species. So lengthwise it's a pretty big fellow. It's a couple feet long. And that might freak people out seeing a big black snake, but it's called a racer for a reason because it loves to run away from things. There's a great herpetology saying there's another species that looks just like this called the rat snake. There's also a long black snake. And the saying is if you see a long black snake and go to pick it up, if it's still there, it's a rat snake. If it's not there, it's a racer. So no worries about encountering racers and having any issues with them. If you do pick them up, if you actually get to catch one, I hear they do get a little bit bitey, but otherwise nothing to worry about. The next snake is one of those venomous species I was talking about. So this is another very small species in the state and just a real pleasure to have around. They got a beautiful like orangey yellow belly that's not showing here that they'll show to predators as a warning sign. And though they are venomous and though I have been bitten by them, I have never had any issue with a ring neck bite. So you really got nothing to worry about with the species. And again, this is a slug eater and an ant eater species. So great to have around for controlling the insects. But the species that I want to talk to you most about is actually the species that we no longer have in the state. And that is the timber rattlesnake. Probably up there as one of the most controversial main animals, like up there with mountain lions, like everyone's like, Oh, I've seen a mountain lion like everyone's done the same thing with timber rattlesnakes. Like I hear so many stories of seeing timber rattlesnakes in Maine when they haven't been here for about 150 years. We'll talk about that a little bit, but this is indeed a venomous species. And the thing about venomous species, especially rattlesnakes is that venom is a very costly thing to produce and it's primarily for catching food, not for fending off stupid people. So they're going to give you as many warnings as possible to tell you to back off and give them space before they deliver a bite. So they'll usually coil themselves up into a defensive position similar to what this snake might be doing here, and they'll rattle that tail. So everyone has hopefully heard what a rattlesnake rattle sounds like be it through TV or in person. So that's warning number one. Number two is this posture. And number three, if they actually deliver a bite to you, they might not even inject venom. It's what's called the dry bite. And that's because again, venom takes so much time and energy to make they don't want to waste it on a person. But sometimes they do indeed inject venom and it's not a pretty story. And people are concerned that they're just going to be like walking through the woods and suddenly get bit by a rattlesnake. And I just want to say that I have known many a biologist who has accidentally stepped on rattlesnakes or like been climbing up a cliffside and put their hand directly onto a rattlesnake, and and that's because you surprise the snake, it didn't have a chance to warn you and it doesn't know how to react quite yet. If you stay there, you're probably going to get a bite, but if you give it space as quickly as possible, you'll be fine. And just to give you some context, the vast majority of venomous snake bites in the United States are in guys about my age and a little bit younger who are drunk and they're almost always on the hand. So if that gives you any idea as to who actually gets bitten by snakes. Hopefully that means that you're going to be okay. So rattlesnakes are a very long lived species much like turtles, it takes them about 10 years to actually get to sexual maturity. And again, they don't get that much energy very quickly they're a very slow moving animal and they are an ambush predator so they're not out looking for prey. And the fact that they get so little energy from their environment means that it can take them about five years to actually get up enough energy to give birth. So if you're looking at a population of animals where they're only breeding every five years and only producing a few young per female. And all those young are getting picked off by things like birds and roads. There's just so many things that a rattlesnake has to look out for and it's not hard to imagine how these populations can decline so fast. So I want to show you a really cool thing just to hopefully pull on your heartstrings a little bit about rattlesnakes. They are fantastic parents in fact they were the only reptile parents in the world. The female will stay with her young or a few days to kind of show them the ropes of being a rattlesnake. This is a time lapse video of a rattlesnake family in Arizona of a different species but it is very similar to what we would have seen here in Maine if the species still existed. The reason that we think that they are parents as compared to like other snake species or lizards or turtles where they don't have any parental care at all is again the fact that they're putting so much time and energy into these babies that they want to make sure that they raise them right. So this is the mother right here the big black individual and the little spotty ones are her babies. So she is going to spend a few days with them to make sure that they're protected and then also teach them how to essentially how to rattlesnake. So they're going to follow her cues to know when it's time to go bask in the sun and get some heat and then when to run back in the den to avoid danger. But perhaps the most important piece here is that they're getting to know each other and what I mean by that is that they're learning each other's sense that they can track each other later in the year when it's time to go into their dens for winter and wait until spring. They can follow each other sent trails to these safe spots, especially moms because mom knows where to go for winter and the babies don't yet. They're going to follow her to those dining sites to make sure that they survive through the winter. Because that's a huge source of mortality for rattlesnakes if they can't find a good place to go and they're doing. So that was a pretty cool thing I came across and hopefully that gives you some new perspective on rattlesnakes. And as far as rattlesnakes today they are extirpated from the state as of about 1850 was the last known recorded individual. It seems like they went through most of the southwestern section of the state right up to about the Tobago Lakes region and possibly as far east as Camden. But really anywhere there were mountains with rocky slopes that was about the best place that you could find a timber rattlesnake in Maine. And despite the best efforts by biologists and hobbyists all over the world that come to Maine to like try to be the one to find the timber rattlesnake and the best habitats there have been no confirmed timber rattlesnakes very sadly. So this is what the range looks like today and they do exist elsewhere in New England including in New Hampshire and I often hear that like, well if they exist in New Hampshire like are they just going to turn around at the main border like they you know that's a joke that like we hear a lot in the wildlife world is like oh they must turn around at the border. Well, the thing is the remaining 20 snakes you're so in New Hampshire are in the southwestern most corner of the state. And the likelihood of one of those individuals feeling enough pressure to leave its home range is very low there's just so little pressure from so few snakes, but let's say one does. It needs to cross probably hundreds of roads and water bodies and other challenges avoiding predators and cars and eventually if it survives all of that magically and makes it to the main border. The odds of it being detected by a manor are probably less than a percent so I'm assuming that a snake even makes it here the odds of somebody actually finding it are extremely low. The most populated states in New England is going to be Massachusetts. There's also quite a few in Connecticut as well as Vermont. However, it is also extirpated from Rhode Island and the numbers are still decreasing so it's possible that in time this might not even be a species we find in New England anymore. People say they saw a rattlesnake. Typically this is the culprit. This is a milk snake. And you can see it's got some bold patterning and also this somewhat strong posture right it looks a little intimidating. Not only that but it actually behaves a lot like a rattlesnake. So this is when I recorded in Thorndike just this past spring. Check out the tail. They rattle it just like a rattlesnake does and while it doesn't audibly rattle it still apparently looks intimidating enough that this is a behavior that the animal has learned. Milk snakes everywhere do it so apparently it's just a good behavior to have to tell predators like hey back off I am dangerous, which milk snakes are not dangerous. She's obviously a little bit ticked off because I'm filming her and I'm also in the way of where she was trying to go which was some woods behind me. And you probably saw she like advanced towards me a little bit and I think that's when people think they're about to get chased, but again she was trying to get to safety which was on the other side of me so right after this I moved out of her way and let her through. So what happened to the timber and mean. Well, while some habitat destruction probably contributed to the timber rattlesnake extirpation. The biggest issue is the fact that there was intentional persecution so people going out and killing snakes whenever they could. Anytime they found a snake they were killing it. So that was a big piece and then there was also killing snakes were like snake oil, which was a commodity back in the day apparently. But fear was this driving force that drove this species out of our state and is driving it through out of New England so it's another sad story for our herbs. And that is still a fear that remains with us today I mean people haven't gotten any less afraid of snakes it seems. So for example like I think like is there a future for the rattlesnake in Maine. I'm thinking probably not because people haven't grown out of this fear of snakes and just to give you a modern example in Massachusetts, where they are doing relatively well compared to other states. They were hoping to introduce a small population of them to an island in the middle of quabban reservoir which is off limits to people. Quabban reservoir is the water source for Boston. So you can imagine how much people started freaking out when they started thinking about the fact that rattlesnakes could be swimming through their drinking water and then there were things like people were getting worried about coming up through their toilets, coming through their sinks which is just going to be impossible and then people thinking venom was going to be like injected into their drinking water, and then they would drink the venom and die which, as far as I understand you can actually drink rattlesnake venom and be okay. It's a hema toxin and has to come in contact with your bloodstream. So if you digest it apparently it's fine. Don't take me up on that don't go drinking rattlesnake venom. But those were the pieces of misinformation and the fear that made this project impossible and sadly, it's been scrapped and that could have been a nail in the coffin for timber rattlesnakes in Massachusetts. So, this is a lesson to learn for us informed opinions matter and I'm probably preaching to the choir here you all know how important it is to be intelligent and know what you're talking about. But it can really dictate how a species survives in the world or if it even makes it like our opinions day to day are judging what species are getting funding, what species are getting legal protection, and we're showing others what we care about so we're showing our kids and our friends and our family, what we value based on how we interact with wildlife so our timber rattlesnakes worth any less than something like a white tailed deer. That's all things that we have to debate with ourselves and figure out. So ultimately, stay informed, stay open minded, and keep in mind that the timber rattlesnake story is applicable to all other species. How we manage moves for example is a really hot topic right now and I'll keep, you know, things simple around that but do your research and just know what you think would work and what's best for our moves in Maine, make informed opinions. And just to put this again in a scientific context there was a study done back in the 70s where they wanted to know what made people like snakes more. So they gave different presentations to middle school audiences and I think there were adults mixed in. Essentially, they tried doing what I'm doing now with a slideshow to see if it significantly changed attitudes, and it didn't so I'm probably doing nothing important right now for you guys. Then they tried showing snakes to people while they talked about them. They didn't work. They tried having people touch the snakes while they talked about them also didn't work and that's surprising because we hear so much about interacting with wildlife and having those experiences being what gets people excited about animals. But when we think about people like Steve Irwin or Jeff Corwin or like these celebrities that really brought us into the natural world. This isn't just the fact that they're interacting with the animals which, whether or not I approve of that depends on the context, but the modeling of good behavior is what really does it getting people excited showing that you're excited and that you care about the species is really what made the difference in this study. So, that's the end of everything hopefully you all stuck with me through it, just as a recap is some things that you can do for herpes here in Maine you can participate in local citizen science projects. If you own any land and I mean like even if you own less than an acre there are things that you can do to improve your yard to make it better for herpes. So next we need to encourage ethical behavior of our friends and family, especially by modeling it. And please don't forget the little guys. So, thank you so much. If you have asked questions I will try to get to them. And if you want to ask me anything elsewhere that's my email if you want to contact me. So, thanks a bunch, and I hope you all enjoyed. Thanks Greg. Thank you. Let me get back in the box here. That was great. Thank you very much. Thank you. We have several questions. And I'd like to start with telling a little more about the big night. Could you give an idea of the date range when this is likely to occur. Yeah, so typically the biggest big night occurs right about April 20 here in Maine. It's been like April 20th April 21st the past couple years. But the migration season is really spread out throughout April. In fact, we had migrations occurring as early as like March 25 this past year. Anytime you have temperatures above 50 degrees Fahrenheit with rain, as long as the ground is no longer frozen, you'll have movements. Okay, great. Another related question, I think, if you know where the nesting site for eggs is, would it be prudent to simply remove the eggs, hatch them out, and then return the hatchlings to the same area near the pools. This is obviously to prevent predation. Um, I go back and forth on that I try to minimize my interaction with things like that as much as possible just because I'm, I've had bad luck with things like that before. But I think especially in an educational setting that's something that that's okay. If you are noticing that vernal pools are drying up much faster than they should be. It seems alright to take the egg mass and place it into just a little tank of water. You want to make sure that water is hopefully taken from that pool. Don't fill it up with sink water or tap water that could have heavy metals or chlorine. And you want to keep it room temperature or less if it's too warm it can kill the eggs. So you want it usually about 50 degrees Fahrenheit I think is the usual temperature. I so ultimately I advise just leaving them be if you can but if you do want to give it a shot there are some special recommendations out there for it. Right. We have a question, do milk snakes live in our state I think you we covered we touched on that. And they certainly do and they're usually found closer to civilization it seems they seem to benefit well from being closer to things like farms and buildings. Yeah. Well I'd like to mention to everyone that we did record the program tonight, and it will be available in a couple of days, you can access it either through the York County Audubon website or through our Facebook page. I think we're good with questions for at this point. Actually, I want if you fed out mind of when I jump in. Greg I bought a house a couple years ago with a with a pool. I didn't don't really want it but here it is. And when amphibians find swimming pools are they did they sort of stumble upon them thinking that they're upon or they somehow can they smell the water. And so I do keep it covered for as long as possible well past April, but I'm but I guess I'm concerned that they, you know it's not like an airtight cover or anything. So what can I do to, I don't live in a high traffic amphibian area but what can I do to keep them safe. Did you say it was above ground or in ground. It's in ground. Okay, so in ground is much harder to deal with an above ground because above ground, luckily you have that barrier where most amphibians won't be climbing up but we have in ground. It's pretty difficult I would say to make sure no amphibians end up in there. Usually the cover is good enough. So when amphibians are migrating through they don't want to go down into water they want to usually be on a terrestrial space. So hopefully that cover would be enough to deter anything that's migrating through. And if you do end up getting that end up in your pool there's little I don't know if you've seen them before like ladders that we have we have two of those. Yeah, so for any anyone who is not familiar with them. They're little ladders are like this big as far as I know right and like you put aside of your pool so if anything falls in they can climb out. Did that answer your question I feel like I missed a mark somewhere. Yeah, and no that's it. I did they just sort of stumble upon the pool or do they somehow sense that it's there. So as far as I know there's nothing sensory going on that's leading them to the pool. As far as I know it's just about their migration routes they're stumbling upon it. Okay, yeah we we I have not seen I don't think any amphibians but we did get quite a few rodents in the pool shrews and things. After we installed those little ramp ladder things we never found another one afterwards so. Excellent so they work well. So that's good. Great. Okay, well I'll just mention that also. We have another program scheduled for the third Tuesday in November. Featuring a tremendously experienced whale guide, who will be talking about narwhals and all different species of whale so it should be pretty neat. So check that out it'll be information will be on our website soon. Thank you very much for joining us. We hope to have you back sometime. Yeah, absolutely thank you so much guys. Okay, good night everyone.