 4 a.m. April the 2nd 1982 Argentine Navy cameraman film their invasion of the folk about Frogmen landed first from a submarine followed later by the main assault force The situation as you might hear is that the radio station has now been taken over If you take the gun out of my back, I'm gonna cross But I'm not speaking with a gun in my back By 7 a.m. After fears fighting government house was completely surrounded History, bro. How are you? Hi, mr. Thrill. It's a pleasure and honor to have a bit of your time I really appreciate it if we uh, yeah if we could talk about the falcons a bit Is that what we got on the the docket today? Yeah, well your channel I mean you can see just by looking at your channel and for everybody Watching I suggest you do you you've got a really good overview of Or not even just an overview and in depth Barely in-depth understanding history compared to probably someone like myself Um, and I think we could talk forever, but shall we talk about the falcons? Yeah, well, I'd really like to it was when I first got in touch with you It was just one of the things that sprung to mind. Um, of course your history with the raw marines Just to put it in a bit of context. I thought I'd say early on is that, you know, neither of us was there if anyone's under any Weird idea. I was I wasn't even one years old. I was born in 1981 I hadn't even yet had my first birthday when the action went down on the falcons there I knew I don't know what we 10 or 12 that sort of age But it's part of your regimental history, isn't it? Um falcons and I'm I'm fascinated by all history like you say But anything that's through the British army or British history Um, of course fascinated by and I've always been interested in the falcons like the minutiae of it What happened exactly in what order and I know you've spoken to Lots of guys that were there, you know And so after you've spoken to lots of really quite serious individuals that were, you know, really there So, you know, it's a bit of an honor really to pick your brain about it and talk about it If you're if you're down for that Yeah, let's go for it. How did you get an interest in the falcons conflict? Well, I mean it's on the list, isn't it? I mean, it's quite a big conflict really technically not a war about conflict a police action Um, what what why is it? Why is it not a war because it wasn't the country's facing off? Well, I think I think it's just technically of course it is a war isn't it? Warfare happened But I think just technically it's not a war because lots of conflicts post world world war two One was like vietnam was never I think technically a war. It was always a conflict. I think originally it comes from korea where There was the massive un actions us and british actions in korea and the president at the time Harry Truman couldn't say it was war He couldn't sort of formally say it was a war in a press conference because that is world war three at that point It was sort of tempting world war three So he said it's sort of on the fly. I said, well, it's uh when Reporters said well, if it's not a war, what is it shelling is going on? Lots of people are dying. He said it's a police action Um, so anyway, it's just a politics thing to get around it. Just words, isn't it? But I think technically The falcons wasn't a war. It was a conflict. But I mean, it's just it's just words, isn't it really? But yeah, so I thought if we could talk about it I'd want to sort of if we're only sort of playing with an hour or so just sort of do an overview of to begin with why it happened Um, sort of look at the bit of the history of argentina And and why they did it and then look a bit at thatcher and her government and the response and then maybe talk about You know the actual actions and what what went down there But I mean if you wanted to say something about maybe sort of the the regimental side of it What a big part of it is for the royal marines The story of the falcons Yeah, I'm all ears bow. Um go for it Oh, okay um Well, I mean the the leader of of argentina at the time was a general leopoldo galtieri It's the galtieri government and um, I mean I think it's I'm not for this the bloody arches sort of view You know, that's a sale as a little kid at the time. I don't remember it firsthand So I look at it as like an armchair historian That's all I am a history fan with a with a mic and a laptop Uh, it's as remote to me as the boar war in a in a way, you know, so but I look at like the The history of argentina up to that point and it is It's quite a quite a sad history quite a fairly brutal history of what happened there, you know, but you look at um Perron the various perron governments Um, and of course he was a civilian but it was a colonel at first It was a civilian but argentina had a succession of military Governments military leaders, um, especially since from 76 onwards. They called it the, you know, junta military junta Everyone pronounce that probably butchering that word. Um, and there was a succession of military Leaders there and this galtieri was the the the last one of them Um, and there was the whole period there called the dirty war In argentina where there was all sorts going down there. It really is a very complicated thing don't want to get into it We haven't got time for that really because it's it really is super complicated that dirty war, but it was some sort of internal Strife, I mean thousands tens of thousands of people were mixed up in it and got killed and um And anyway, these military governments the junta were were right leaning and their enemies that were Leftists communists if you like, um, and so anyway don't want to get into the weeds of all that You end up with this galtieri government Who um, I think the picture was that they they planned they wanted to Have a war with chili because argentina's perennial enemy is is chili Um, if you know if I suppose just historically speaking that the english's main enemy is the french or maybe the scotch You could argue going back I think for argentina and chili they're each other's most bitter enemies. I mean if you look at the map they've got the massive long border with each other Yeah, I think um a very high border as well, isn't it because it's the andy's mountains That's right. That's right. And I think just in terms of just pure military might Argentina is more powerful was back then has always been more or less. I think richer more more bigger population And certainly their air force Then was a lot bigger than what chili had. Um, and anyway, I think I may have some of these details wrong as I said I'm only an armchair historian But I think argentina were going to be going to war with chili at some point In in in the like late 70s there and for whatever reasons it was put off It didn't happen And so I think the idea is that this this galtieri leader general, um sort of had to Turn his eye of sour on somewhere else. He had to do something else, you know He's like you've got this this military government and they sort of need to exercise What wasn't argentina in poverty at the time or some kind of um financial collapse? Yeah, yeah, there was some sort of mass inflation and financial collapse and like some like, you know, a social collapse in many ways. Uh, I think Again, it's quite a dark thing. Um this sort of a reign of terror of some type in argentina, you know Lots of disappearances. That's the classic thing that there were people were actually It was supposed to cliché in some circles to people to be disappeared to take it up into helicopters and And disappeared. Well, this was it. This was the real thing. This uh, this dirty war in argentina um, well the whole of south and central america um The operation condor is it that the americans this grand clan to uh, keep keep leftists and communists out Well, don't think me rude, but I've just put um my search engine up on the other screen so I can Have a little uh search about the things we're talking about so keep keep talking if you see me looking at that screen I'm no worries not trying to be rude Yeah, no, of course. No worries. Um, go ahead please do. Um, yeah, correct me if i'm wrong On this stuff because some things especially with ancient history because that's really my forte is is ancient history Um, you can sort of get away a bit with saying. Oh, I think this I think that I read this 10 years ago So I think it was that because when you're talking about You know Conflicts where people died and been terribly maimed and they're still alive and the families are still life It's where the rubber meets the road a bit with someone like me a historian talking about stuff and it's still very real for people So it's you know, it's not as okay. Just so I think this happened and just be flippant So, you know, I'll have to be careful So if I do if you do catch me saying anything wrong do please do Interrupt yeah, you're very humble mate, and I think it's good you say that it is we've always got a bearing mind and we that people Fought died and got injured and and not just that there's how many How many children have grown up with no father because they were killed in the safe the folklens conflict I'm a bit like yourself bow. I kind of I make it I'll make people aware. I'm just an outside observer. You know, I'm I think that's the best way Yeah, yeah, no, I mean I haven't spoken that much on my channel about Very recent conflicts and things. So, you know, it's usually more ancient stuff or world or two at least You know things like that. Um, so I'm gonna You know be be more careful here. I probably will still annoy some people by being flippant about it I mean I did a conversation with someone the other day and they mentioned the Falklands war and they mentioned it Well, his atheism is unstoppable when he's an American and he mentioned the Falklands offhand as Just that it was In the terms that it was a really one-sided conflict There was no way Argentina could ever have won it and it was this silly little conflict that was of no real importance And and it's a bit embarrassing even for brits to keep harking on about it and keep going on about it um When in fact, that's I think of an extremely harsh and glib reading of really what happened and anyway In response to that I said even more glibly I suppose I said Well, you're quite right. Um, Britain has got a nuclear back then as well had a nuclear capability And Argentina hasn't so of course it was always a foregone conclusion um Now that's a bit of a silly thing to say as if we were as if that she was ever gonna Nuke Buenos Aires, you know, it was never it was never on the cards, of course Um, but that is something I thought we could talk a little bit about in detail Is that they put that together that task force really quite quickly and on the ground the the parrots and the marines and stuff are quite often outnumbered heavily outnumbered and um, you know, you could look at it as In hindsight like someone like me and say couldn't they have taken Months or a year or more and put together a much much bigger much much more um thorough task force expeditionary force or something Where that you know, maybe that could have happened. I don't I don't know what you think about that Well, wasn't it that I mean, we're never going to know the wise or wherefores of This war are we? I mean, it's not Some wars you can kind of trace the origins behind them Like the banking families this kind of thing the the um Corporations and the like but the Falklands is kind of an unknown, isn't it because I I I can only go on what I've heard people Say or write about or what what they said in documentaries and It did seem like a move by goutieri, wasn't it to gain popularity by playing a an easy and obvious card that would that would Stir up public further and get the country behind him So that's the Argentine side of things as far as the British Sending a task force all the way whatever it was thousands of miles into the South Atlantic At a time where I think our At least our navy was getting stretched for resources It's hard to say, isn't it there's the notion that That was a strong leader They've invaded British soil or they put the freedom of British subjects in jeopardy and we are Going to take action and the way that you would have said it would or Margaret Thatcher would have said it would be uh You know, Britain will show them who's boss something along along those lines, right, but then of course Maggie also got massive popularity Following that warden cheer as as a result of the victory if you if that's the right word At a time where her popularity was sub was previously suffering and then you hear that I think it's even members of her own family had shares in oil In the South Atlantic around the Falklands, right? I'm just putting this out there. I'm not saying that's the case but Yeah, just to sort of go back to what what what you originally said You know, there's some things you're just possibly never going to know Yeah, I suppose so if we go back to the actual origin how it sparked off I mean, I think it really was a surprise attack by the art and times. Um, I've seen interviews with members of Thatcher's government at the time the foreign secretary was a guy called Carrington the Lord Carrington I think it was and he resigned immediately upon it happening because you know, it's pretty old school thing You know, he's like saying well, you know, it was on my watch that this thing happened out of the blue It's only right that I should resign. Um, and I've heard seen in other documentaries other people sort of, you know, really seeing a people in the government and in the um in the in the ministry of defense and stuff saying Yeah, it was out of the blue. We knew they were doing Exercises they were scheduled to be doing exercises all around there and we knew that that was all sort of cleared But and then this attack came out of the blue because it wasn't just the malvinas those those islands There was also a south julter and a few other small rocks in the sea that they Invaded, you know, like an amphibious attack um You know one day comes out of the blue as far as we're concerned sort of thing. Um, so Yeah, I said to you before when we were talking about setting this conversation up I said something I think it might be Fair to say in the interest of honesty sort of where I'm coming from stuff the idea from from our point of view for thatcher's government I was raised in a A labor household fairly sort of a wishy washy kind of labor household not staunch labor But certainly labor thatcher was kind of the enemy. I remember when I was a little kid and thatcher was the prime minister She was sort of she'd stolen the milk You know that sort of thing. Um, and so I was I sort of had this narrative that it was Yes, somehow cynical on her part to gain popularity or something like that Or it was all about oil or had always been about oil or something like that And as I got older or in in my adulthood in my 20s and 30s read Read about it and saw various things and you know come to your own conclusions from your own Opinions entirely from the ground up and um, I think that it was it was a just war It was a standing up to a kind of blind aggression from the galtiary government. Um Yeah, I don't I think it was a terrible terrible shame that people lost their lives But I I would consider it a just war if there is such a thing if you you know, some people would argue There's no such thing as a just war or war is a complete failure of humanity And politics, but if you're gonna have them and if you're gonna rank them In you know quite a glib way of what was that are more or less just I think I would I would feel comfortable putting the footprints up there Yeah, I mean putting aside any kind of you know Political reasons why we might have gone down there or why Margaret Thatcher decided to Send the task force I guess we still got to remember that it there's people living on this island That want want to be British That's the key thing Chris. Yeah, and and not just want to be British but like they've got their own rule down there Do you know what I mean? They they say how things go I think the first thing that the argentines did when they invaded Was uh Force everybody to drive on the other side of the road Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that they're the british people there They certainly consider themselves, which I mean it's funny when you go to places in the world Like Gibraltar or various sort of british protectors or overseas territories And they've got like the exact same letter boxes that you get in england or just Actually, it's a funny and really telling Little anecdote little piece of evidence from uh one of the argentinian Conscripts of you know, 18 19 year old conscripts many years later in an interview saying that when he got there when he got to the malvinas he was Utterly shocked to see that it didn't look anything like argentina He looked like england and that even he said even a nail he sort of found a nail on the floor and it said made in england on it Um, it's kind of surprised. I've never seen a nail that says made in england. Anyway, it's not the point. Um, yeah, they were surprised They'd been told um the um This was just simply their land that had been stolen from them by by the crown um, and And it was it was theirs to retake but the reality is that um, you know, the people on there There'd been a plebiscite hadn't there they've been votes various times Do you want to remain part of the the commonwealth or the british and the british protectorate? And they were they were all Entirely loyal to to britain and had always voted to remain so Um, and it's the same to this day Uh, but it does hit on that thing of the the from the argentinian side. They're they're um They're uh Wasn't not motivations. They're um Yeah, yeah, their motivations for taking it um was that they considered they say things like well It's part of their continental landmass. It's on the same continental shelf as as they're as them So but that's nonsense. That doesn't mean anything island is on the same continental shelf as westminster It doesn't mean you automatically doesn't work like that. I mean if you want to look at the history just a very quick bit of detail You know, like it was never Britain had landed there and colonized it and you know had it as theirs since before argentina was a country Uh, you know it goes back to hawkins, you know it goes back to like with the 15th century or something and um, I think Briefly argentina did sort of you know, technically own it for like a period of 10 years there But for hundreds of years for hundreds of years. It's been um British and you know So so that's the way it is that's sort of the political reality of it and when they did invade actually um In 1982 when you know argentinians, you know sent amphibious landing crafts over and landed men on there and forcibly took it. Um The rest of the world did say, you know, that's that's bad. You can't be doing that because britain said We're not having this right guys, you know, we're going to do something and and they all sort of on the political side diplomatic side said Yeah, no, it's terrible. We can dem argentina Um, we're not going to help you britain in any way by the way But yeah, we condemn it sort of on paper Because britain said that just said just immediately, you know, we're going to do something about this And our european allies lindy beige the history is the history channel lindy beige has got a funny He describes this in quite a funny way The um all our european allies, you know countries like germany and france They said, oh, of course, we condemn the the aggression of argentina. Um, but We're not going to help you in any any possible way So britain turns to the un Um, you know being a member of the security council, you know, one of the big players supposed supposedly Uh, ask the un to help and they're like, yeah, no, we again. We condemn Galtieri's government, but um, yeah, you're on your own so so perhaps we could turn to The mighty nato the north atlantic treaty organization is always there to protect any member Of nato who is aggressed against will have the they will have everyone else in the in the north atlantic treaty organization They'll be there to back them up and save them, but nato, which is of course really led by america largely They said, yeah, no, you're on your own um Again, we condemn argentina for this naked aggression, etc, etc But yeah, you're not getting any planes or anything. Come on. So anyway, britain really were on their own america did try to help To be fairs diplomatically But but again weren't prepared to do anything unilaterally to help us. So so thatcher Says right. We're going to put together, uh A task force this task force um, which was two two aircraft carriers Was it the hermes and the um The one you were on what you were on. Um, was it the uh invincible the invincible, of course you you were stationed on the invincible Weren't you at some point later? Yeah. Yeah for a little over a year So I think I think the invincible was sort of cutting edge at that time in 82 It's like brand new more or less. I think Uh, anyway, she sends down to to these two aircraft carriers support supported by loads of other cruisers and destroyers and and things 120 130 odd ships in total. I think the whole fletilla was in this task force. They sent down there um to take it back and um, but it wasn't this it was sort of a kind of a A close run thing. I mean the air war Where we only had was it 20 25 30 odd sea harriers versus over 100 Skyhawks and and all this but yeah if you want to get if you want to get into sort of the the detail of Of what went down. I mean, um, we got any other thoughts and sort of like, um Thatcher or sort of the politics and make the diplomacy how it all sparked off. Well, it was all um, what's that word? Brinkmanship there was something I wanted to say about brinkmanship. I think I think that's what galaxy area is really Really guilty of he didn't think we'd do anything and we called his bluff Yeah, that's a word. I I don't think I've ever used in my life brinkmanship Yes No, what was I was going to say, you know, we were on a dodgy wicket going down there, weren't we because We had to rely on the fact that we still had relationships with chili And I think chili were falling out with argentina over Another land dispute between the two countries. So fortunately chili Allowed us to lend was it to land some of our aircraft there for refuelling and this sort of thing And then it was chili played a fairly big road to be fair in some ways. Sorry. Yeah, well, and then america sat on the fence, didn't they for For even like a long way through the the conflict And to think towards the end we were running out of ammunition And just at that point, I think the america Sided with us if that's the right expression and we got a resupply I might be wrong on that I'm just saying saying the things that I've heard Yeah, no, the one of the main figures was Um, uh, alexander hay General alexander hay. I don't know if you know him or heard about him He was sort of a big shot sort of on the international station. I diplomat I think he was head of state department at the time, but he'd been around for years. He'd he'd been nixon's chief of staff You know, like 10 years earlier and stuff and anyway He was sort of one of the the big shots in for america who was sort of Going backwards and forth between london and boy nazaris and the un and trying to trying to make You know the hot war not happen Because I think that's what a lot of people thought that's what everyone thought it would be whilst in the three or four weeks It took to get this task force together and send it down the seven eight thousand miles down to Uh, down to the falcons there. They thought it would get Um resolved politically before any shots had to be fired And of course, we know of course in hindsight that didn't it didn't happen But he was one of the main people that did try really hard to Make it all happen. I think at one point because if we lose one of those aircraft carriers The whole point of having two aircraft carriers is the contingency thing if one goes down You've still got another platform to land your planes on but you kind of need two and if one had been sunk or something Which wasn't completely inconceivable. I think america said you can have one of our carriers I heard in an interview one of the really really senior navy guys like that admiral Sandy woodward or somebody super senior said that the americans had offered one of their aircraft carriers if it really came to that Um, and I think the logistics the practicality of that is extremely difficult We can't just give us one of their aircraft carriers to just start operating They'd have to operate it themselves. It would mean them being involved in the war So don't know how serious or how close that came to happening or whether it was really ever going to happen or anything like that But the americans were in the end on our our side, of course, I suppose the special relationship is with something But yeah for a long time. They just wanted it not to happen. They just wanted it to all go away I think most of the international community just wanted it to just go away Um, because it's just sort of an unpleasantness. Isn't it really? Um, as far as they're concerned, um, I think a lot of the international community couldn't really understand Uh in some ways why both sides were so Serious about it. They were prepared to go to war over it. They you know, I've heard us really senior senior american diplomats say You know didn't make any sense to some people these small this small rock in the south atlantic Um, but you know, it's uh, like I say sort of a naked aggression thing to a matter of principle because you know those military governments of argentina you say they were definitely going to have a war probably say definitely he knows but There was always conflict with chili. I mean in in the south there patica. Is it like southern patagonia? Anyway the south argentina had to Designs on controlling all of that. I think Um, and so it's really really in chili's interest to help us out as much as possible You know my enemies enemy is my friend and stuff But yeah, they really helped in loads of ways allowed loads of special forces to land inside chili and do all sorts of things and Yeah, and we had I think that we had What were those massive Bombers, is it the vulcan vulcan bombers? They're allowed to sort of fly out of easter island and stuff to do reconnaissance high level reconnaissance Because easter island belongs to chili. So chili helped in loads of ways that it was really in their interest for argentina not to win That conflict What You're right. I'm just looking at the the map. It seems easter islands. It seems an awful Long way out there west. Yeah, it's way out there west, but that's the whole point. That's the whole point It was sort of really high level reconnaissance and they weren't supposed to ever know Yeah, um, but um, yeah, so they they land on on the argentines invade those islands and thatcher decides to get together This task force and send it down there. And that was one of the questions asked earlier um, because when they ended up the boots on the ground they did, you know, come into conflict at places like goose green and What's the capital called Stanley, but sorry. Yeah, Stanley all the very battles around Stanley um, quite often the marines and the parrots and the guards that were there and quite often outnumbered quite heavily and so Just as Historian looking back at it Don't I always think this couldn't they've spent instead of doing it as quickly as possible on a not on a shoestring I mean, it's two aircraft carriers, but um instead of doing it in four weeks flat Couldn't they've taken this is just a grand strategic level sort of idea Couldn't they've taken six months and put together an overwhelming force so that so that you didn't end up with You know, like four or five hundred marines versus 1200 conscripts. It would have just been Well, you probably could have forced any garrison on there to surrender, you know If you built up an over some sort of in crazy overwhelming force What do you think about that is what's about that idea just in general of putting together something in four weeks and just going bang and Well, that's that's hardy even I Military strategists would debate this to the cows come home, wouldn't they? I bet there's no simple answer to it the longer you leave The longer we left the argentine troops there the longer they had to dig in to fortify their You know their foxholes and this sort of stuff to put in more air defense I don't know bringing more ships what whatever the case may be I still don't that still doesn't necessarily mean They would have won or fought off the british But it would have meant a lot more people would have died Yeah, I mean possibly. Yeah, I mean, who knows I suppose Yeah, it's a silly really to try and think what might have happened if you've done this or that but um Yeah, talking about so like the actual action I suppose when it started the british said there would be an exclusion zone like 200 nautical miles around around the islands And so in any war you have to get um sort of air superiority is the key thing, isn't it first and foremost who having controls the sky is And so this carrier group Go in there and I suppose one of the first things one of the sort of the headlines of of debate or to talk about is the Syncing of the belgrano and sort of the naval engagements that happened before, you know, there are many boots on the ground Um, I mean, what do you think about the belgrano and what happened there? Or for people that don't know, sorry, um, I've been accused a few times recently in comments of uh, assuming people know What I'm talking about without giving any background. So I suppose just real quick. There was uh The one of the biggest ships in the argentine navy was the belgrano a big big cruiser class Ship which had massive five inch guns massive is bigger than any any naval guns we had on our ships So essentially it was in essence it was possible for it to just shoot us Um, so there's a real threat um And we didn't have the entire british navy down there. We just had this taskful So anyway, they decided that this uh, the belgrano is a real and present danger and they sink it one of our nuclear subs um Yeah, she shot her torpedoes out here and sunk it. Um And lots of men died. I mean over 300 or 320 Argentinian sailors died on that. Um, I think it was the uh, hms conqueror was our submarine that did that And apparently there was uh, they sent it directly back to the cabinet in london to Margaret Thatcher herself sort of okay it Which she did and and that's what happened and um, I think well Why it's a talking point. Um, is that some people said that that was sort of a Well on one end of the spectrum her detractors would say that's kind of a murderous act She's sort of murdering these Argentinian sailors needlessly um Because the things like the belgrano was steaming away Um, and they weren't a present threat and it was against rules of engagement and this sort of thing And I think nearly all of that is wrong. It was a completely legitimate. I think Legally it's completely legitimate action. It was steaming towards uh the exclusion zone and uh, yeah, there was nothing to prevent us from legitimately sink it It was it was going to be it was Yeah, it sort of had to happen because they turned the entire Argentinian navy around they had another battle group with their aircraft carrier that was steaming towards it on the north And it it turned them around and um, sort of they never really came out of port again, essentially and so it was uh That's sort of the talking point. It was uh, so what do you think about the belgrano incident? It's just fucking harsh, mate. Isn't it full stop? I mean irregardless of the the The wise and the wherefore's 323 people Died when that shit went down. It's It's It's hard to fathom that isn't it all the families the relatives That then got to live with the fact that not only do they lose their loved one but You've got The Argentine government are going to play up the fact that they were sailing away from the exclusion zone And people are not going to let that Look not going to let that go. Are they? Yeah, I mean, I don't think that was the case. I don't think they were sailing away from it. Um I'm just saying the Argentine government what with their slant on history and politics Would have it that oh we were You know, we were we're in the right so to speak Yeah, no, I it's again, there's so many open-ended questions aren't there around the the Falklands conflict Yeah, war is hell um, yeah, I mean well after that The uh, the battle group had sort of control of the seas more or less But the Falklands are only I say only it's quite a long way But 400 odd miles from the mainland of argentina so they can fly their Fighter planes this sort of ground attack fast jets um out there and back So so there was still a war in the air to be had between the argentine air force and The british fighters that we could get off of these carriers Um, and as I said, I think we had it was mainly the famously the sea harrier we had isn't it? I think there was only sort of as a 25 or 30 odd at most Verses what they had a lot. I think they had a few different thing mirages and things but mainly the famous one is the The the sea hawk isn't it also a sky hawk the a4 sky hawk Where you see there's lots of footage of those screaming around st. Carlos sound isn't there very famously bits of footage And they had quite a lot the Argentines actually had a fairly big air force I think they had over a hundred operational fast jets to begin with anyway Which you know is not insignificant at all But I think the sea harrier just proved to be because that was relatively cutting edge as well at the time Pretty new I think and People just say it's a lot more maneuverable than than those than those sky hawks And so we couldn't really afford to lose hardly any harriers But yeah, that their attrition was just worse in the air war We were able to shoot down and one of the things that gets said a lot is that their pilots were extremely brave and did some very Very risky maneuvers and things like stayed with it moments before hitting the ground and stuff like that But yeah, I suppose that's one of the the sort of talking points one of the things that comes up a lot that whenever you See anything about the Falklands craft and it is the footage from st. Carlos bay Where we had a lot of our landings or a lot of the ships were there And that's where the Argentine sent a lot of a lot of their aircraft to you know a lot of stuff went down there It's full on isn't it if you're if you're crew on one of those ships sat in San was it san Carlos sound san Carlos water? Yeah, yeah, San Carlos, San Carlos Bay. I mean it's It's just beyond belief these the To think that at any moment you could be sunk Yeah, this is war isn't it? It's um, it's not pretty Yeah, and as I mentioned earlier like with your the regimental history of the marines I mean yeah, you've spoke as I say you've spoke to a lot of people that are actually there and stuff. I mean When you were coming up were there even guys that were you know Older than you are more senior In in the marines that had actually been there and you speak to them about what happened or their experience what they saw and things like that Yeah, you I've met many Many fellow marines that served down there. I guess at this point I should say we call it core history Marines being part of the navy and obviously regiment being a an army term No, it's fine. It doesn't it doesn't bother me, but I know some people we go in But yeah You know It was a real era in core history that the the 80s Leading into the 90s. I mean the marines are hard enough But that period and the events that happened and and the type of Marine that the navy was recruiting at the time Just led to some seriously hard men and of course a lot of folklens vets made up the training teams at limestone so Yeah, you know you had battle hardened corp rules teaching you how to how to fire your your your rifle and You you'd hear some stories from them The most stories I've I've heard of from my friend h He's just been diagnosed with PTSD and he's he's obviously older than me Only just been diagnosed with it. He's had to live his whole life With the memories of Being what probably 19 years old Advancing up those mountains into contact and then Having to wait For someone to get shot before you take cover sounds a bit crazy, doesn't it? When you advance to contact as we call it You don't take cover Until you get effective enemy fire an effective enemy fire is when someone gets hit I guess the point there is you don't want to start taking cover if you're miles away from from the trenches where your where your enemy is dug in And he said chris. He said you learn all this stuff in training now about section attacks and putting down Sustain fire to keep the enemy's heads down while the other sections or troops move up the hill He said fuck all that bullshit that he said In the folklens. So everyone just lined up First thing they did if they hadn't done it already was ditch there We call it battle bowlers, which is your helmet Um and put their green berries on he said so if you look behind you there was just a long line of Of helmets all the way along sort of the bottom of mount harrier or mount mount kent He said all these weapons drills that you go through in in How many what am I trying to say you go through so many Times in the marines safety catch change lever Off magazine check you took all this kind of stuff which gets drilled into you Again, he was like He said chris. Fuck that. He said you just charged up that hill firing your rifle As rapidly as you could when that magazine was empty none of this You know stow it away in one of your what we call pooches pouches He said fuck that it's throw that fucking thing away You know reaching your combat jacket grab another one. He said get the fucker on your rifle quick and and keep keep going When they got back to four five commando um one of the first things they they had on their timetable on their schedule was weapon straining and He said the court the court will taking the session Was like oh guys come on Put some effort in like pay attention and they're like that. Fuck that smudge and he said it's because they were so uh Just demoralized by the fact of what war is really like as opposed to Perception it would be like from their truck training Um, does that make sense? Yeah, I think maybe nearly every generation of soldiers certainly when there's a gap of Hiatus between wars every new generation is kind of surprised by that it seems I mean, I saw your your interview with is it a Nigel Spud Ely Is that right spud? Yep spud. Yeah Who was in the parrots at the time and was there wasn't he and he went on to be in the sas and his some of his accounts from it, you know, really quite harrowing, you know Guys crying on body parts and the whole you know the whole nine yards So, yeah, it's like obviously That's why I think it's kind of weird that there's some perception out there that it was this Rinky dink little tin pot end of the pier war that didn't sort of nothing over a rock in the sea and in fact there was some Pretty crazy actions that went down, you know the reality some quite, you know pretty pretty crazy stuff I suppose. Yeah getting into it a bit the uh the famous yomp across the island Well, one of the things was that one of the what we did lose quite a lot of ships, you know, like The Sheffield and the ardent the sadly like the the sagal had in the satristan terrible burns like the welsh guards lost lots of guys there, but You know the antrim the argon or the antelope the list goes on But one of the big ones was the atlantic conveyor, which was like a civilian ship that Got here. I think maybe with the might be one of the the french bill exorcets because they I think maybe I might be getting some of these details wrong But I think the argentine stuck it on their radar for one of our carriers. It was so massive I fired one of these Extremely valuable exorcets they had they only had like far ever think these missiles that we couldn't shoot down Anyway, anyway, the atlantic conveyor this big ship was here and It's really terrible lots of burns and stuff But one of the I think one of the repercussions of that was that it was holding loads and loads of helicopters Our helicopters and so the idea was to have our men's Helicoptered in to to stanley A lot of do be doing that quite a lot. Yeah, it couldn't happen because they were all lost in that And so you ended up with lots of marines and parrots walking across the island and it's not a tiny island I mean we're talking, you know tens of miles isn't it 50 miles or what I mean if you must know a great deal about the yonk Yeah, well the helicopters were chinooks, I believe and they would have they could have been used to to carry I think a chinook can basically hold a whole troop troop of men and obviously Carry them Wherever they needed to go it's like our american brothers and sisters won't go anywhere without They're fucked up man. We we're walking over there They just they always wait for the choppers But they were a lot of them went all all these chinooks went down on The atlantic conveyor and I think it left Two serviceable cargo helicopters That that's hence why you hear about this infamous yonk Yeah, we lost a lot of sort of air mobile capability. I think in that and so yeah, it was left with Because I think one of the things correct me if I'm wrong about this Just sort of the perception. I think a lot of people have is that A lot of the boots on the ground in the falcons were marines and parrots Um, but there were all sorts there actually, you know, like I said, there's lots guards with other welsh guards and various other special lots of special forces. Um, you know um Were there beforehand probably long beforehand hiding in the ghouls and things um, but um Yeah, I suppose one of the big actions before you get to sort of stanley and the final um retaking of stanley and the end of the of the actions uh good screen was one of the big things and and um There was a few actually because you mentioned a few of the hills um around so a lot of the a lot of the uh stuff that went down Fighting, you know, really close up amongst it in trenches that the Argentines have built and then makeshift defences around um, sort of farmsteads homesteads and sort of remote buildings on on the hillside on Down there on the falcons. Um Yeah, a lot of it was uh A lot of it did come sort of quite close. So goose green for example, um That was that is one of the one of the bigger ones, wasn't it? Were quite a few guys uh Diagnosed by a run That's where kernel h jones lost his life, isn't it? Right. Yeah, I mean I was going to say something about that again That's one of the things that comes up quite often if you sort of read a book or watch documentary about the falcons the uh The story of that so if anyone that doesn't know they uh, it was a very senior Very senior guy left-handed kernel. I mean he was the commander The commanding officer of the whole of the second battalion of the parents, wasn't he? So I believe so and um You know, that's really quite senior as I understand it. I've already been corrected on one thing already And I'm like a proper civvy get things wrong Like at what sort of division level He was and to have it really clear in my mind how senior he was Am I wrong to think that being the co of two para On the ground there that is really quite really quite senior like he was sort of the the if you think of it as a Probably a bad An allergy, but if it was an organism he's sort of the brain of it Uh, is is that wrong to think of it in those terms? What what do you think? Well? he was the commanding officer of two para and traditionally The argument would be he should be at the back you know dictating or calling out the move so to speak with his um radi you know virus radio operator and in this almost kind of hollywood scenario he charged an enemy trench And got shot dead in the process, but yeah, it was It was a shock. I mean How the hell Two para must have felt knowing their commanding officer's dead and fortunately they had a chat chris kiebel I think was a major at the time who stepped up to the play. Well, you know, that was his job to step up to the play if if sun ray as his um cool sign was uh got killed and apparently Well, he did he obviously did an excellent job Hmm Yeah, yeah, I think um Well, is this all this a thing sort of goes back as oldest time to ancient times even um But how much should the a commanding officer or the the general or something be right up in the thick of it? Um, so for example, there's a there's quite a few anecdotes of napoleon getting too far forward and his senior Adjutants and officers saying, you know, come on. Stop stop being silly. You've got to get back now You know, you're actually within range of the cannons and uh in world war one There's lots of examples of generals getting killed If you look at the lists some quite there's a fair few names that are generals and you know There's generals and then there's generals, but even senior generals were killed in world war one um, and and you know, it goes back to Even ancient times like should the king really fight on the front line? Um, is it prudent? Um, so anyway, I suppose maybe that debate does apply to H Um Lieutenant jones, um, he did get the vc for that though, didn't he? I believe he was awarded the vc and um, well, I know he was I read the citation just the other day um, and so obviously the powers that be decided it was uh A great and valiant gallant action, which it was i'm not saying it wasn't at all. It was um The only thing I would say I suppose just just to raise the question. Who am I some YouTube peon to question a vc? But nevertheless, I mean it's the job of a historian to ask difficult questions. Maybe like if How to put it diplomatically, but if um Sort of discretion might have been the more Uh prudent thing in that moment on that night in that moment to charge forward I've heard accounts of guys that were right there with him that were saying don't Don't charge forward like if you go around that corner or whatever it was if you try and charge that trench Um, you know, that's don't do that. That's crazy at this moment And that and guys said they were saying that to him as he picked up a gun and charged forward um so I don't know what it is. What is that happened? Didn't it? Um, and uh, I think anyone that wins a vc is doing something insane Aren't they they're not they're not doing what your brain would ordinarily tell you to do I think there's something about extreme bravery that God, I think a psychologist could just because spend hours discussing the factors that that lead up to people that do these Incredible acts of heroism Yeah, I only really mean he was Too much of a hero His balls were too big don't don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to cast any uh shadow On on him or his memory or what he did at all. I mean the guy won the vc the description of it is crazy I mean it's an incredible amazing You know, there is as you say as you said straight away There is just that that question of whether it was sort of uh, the most prudent thing for the co To do I mean he says in the citation that the only reason he was there is because he actually really did Honestly, you know need to see what was going on So there was a proper good reason for him to be up there There was just that that sort of final action of running for even further forward and the justification is it was to keep the moment and going um, but as you said is that Does that really come within the remit? That's a good way for me Is that really within the remit of his role to to to to do that? That's all. Um That's it Yeah, that's a sort of armchair warriors Topic isn't it? Yeah, god. I mean it's easy for me to sit here and say I've never served a day and the services in my life Just uh And just say was that the right thing to do? I mean it's kind of Well, he would have grossed in a way for me even to question it, but there you go. I mean Gotta do it really he must have been under extreme pressure not not just about when leading leading his men into combat, but Goose green as far as the tactics were Concerned goose goose green had to be out the way so that they could break out of san Carlos if if I understand correctly And I guess being pinned down Must have been incredibly frustrating and you're the co. It's you know this The balls in your court, you know the buck stops with you possibly that that was like I say one of I've no doubt many many factors in his spur of the moment decision Yeah, but I mean so I think they're at goose green or Though there's various hills around goose green that were contended. I mean, I think we're talking like Yeah, 400 odd parrots versus about 1500 Argentinian soldiers whether they were all sort of 19 year old conscripts as they often described I don't think they were all I mean spud Did suggest that they probably might have been A lot more seasoned than just 19 year old kids, but Anyway, they the the British Forces were outnumbered heavily But you know still took those positions and took lots and lots of lots and lots of captives and uh Yeah, they were able to sort of move on to stanley and I suppose That the final chapters of it or the various peaks around to to the west of stanley Um, you know, a lot of them got names people might have heard, you know tumbled down But there's mount longdon was there's lots of stuff mount harrier. Um, but yeah, you mentioned a couple of others There's a sort of half a dozen or more where Yeah, lots of lots of firefighters went down, you know the marines were there weren't they and Yeah, if you want to talk about sort of the final the final Day days around stanley Yeah, I mean the the powers were massive up against it weren't they they were hugely outnumbered The bbc had already broadcast To the world that um the powers were going to attack at dawn Fortunately or allegedly The argentine commanders didn't take it seriously. They thought it was a a ruse But you're an 18 year old para Going up a hill knowing you're three times outnumbered plus the fact the enemy knows knows you're coming Yeah, they did well the it's a brave thing to do Yeah, I think you uh sort of very diplomatically skated over sort of the uh, there's an element of treachery there isn't there if it was on the bbc um They've sort of uh, they've sort of they've sort of given the enemy Given away in regards of whether the enemy commanders chose to ignore it or not But the bbc did broadcast what the soldiers hadn't done yet Uh, which is well, that's Kind of a betrayal, isn't it? Is it me or is that sound? Bang out of order. Oh, it's it's despicable Right You know, it doesn't matter what again what politics you want to get into Some people would say wow a military spokesperson would have told them what to say It's kind of irrelevant. I think During when when your country's at war There's kind of a duty on you to do all you can to Support the war effort, isn't there as long as for moral reasons you you you agree with it? I'd say You don't go telling the the enemy that 500 Men many of them barely teenagers Who were doing an incredibly brave thing on behalf of their nation you don't go telling the enemy that they're they're coming. It must have been Incredibly demoralizing, but as for it. Well in the end um Stanley Stanley was taken um and uh, and uh, well that that was it the uh the galtier of government had to concede I mean if something was going to say only when we started talking about the diplomacy of it and the run-up to it All the all the diplomats all the senior guys for america at the un would say to the argentines. They say look you You know you can't win right? You know if the brits do decide they're gonna take them back They're gonna take them back. There's you can't stop them. So Yeah, at what point are you gonna back down and of course they did and that was the whole point So when it came when it came to the end of everything and Stanley had been retaken by british forces The the galtiary government didn't have much of a leg to stand on and it fell quite quickly um And I suppose just to put a bow tie on it. What happened I mean, he was he lived to be an old man galtiary personally Um, I think you there were trials in argentina through the 80s or from the 80s onwards of people that are in those various governments those various military Governments and I think he did go on trial. He did go on trial at some point and go to prison for a while but Live to be an old man and most of it at liberty Still so that's what happened to him. And we know that she went on to Well, she was prime minister for 10 years or more wasn't it? She didn't leave until gulf war one sort of 1990 1991 before major came in so Yeah, that sort of was at the right near the beginning of her premiership And as you said she went from being quite um You know unpopular because there was a lot of we had a lot of economic unrest in the 70s as well Sort of four-day weeks and stuff and blackouts and things and uh, but we had the boom of the 80s which in some ways are kind of um embodied by Thatcher in some ways that the boom of the 80s and that whole 10 years I think of Thatcher in many ways as the 80s, you know in some sense Uh, so yeah, that was the rest of her story Um, I I remember her coming to power in the 70s after showing my age there Yeah, and so I suppose that is sort of the the story of the falcons I just wondered what else you might think about it or sort of now with sort of decades later How it sort of exists in the in the popular consciousness or how Brits think about it now or certainly as yourself as a Member of the marines how how it's sort of thought of Yeah, I think we should point out here that we've uh, as we said at the beginning We were just going to cover this rudiment rudimentarily. I'm making up a word there um, but just for the purposes of having a chat won't we There's obviously so much more to the conflict in terms of Individuals commitment The battles that were fought the the events that took place I would encourage anyone to read Read a book on on the war It's one called the yompers. It's about four or five commandos Uh, falcons war There's one by a chap called Vincent Bramley It's he's written two books. The first one was about Taking Mount London And the paris wrote the paris rolled in the falcons conflict Uh, what's it called? I was gonna say it could took for hours just about the battle for Mount London. Didn't you um Yeah, he's got I'm just gonna look it up. It's something like descent into hell or something um, but in these books You're you're gonna hear far more About what actually I mean the nitty gritty or the nastiness of what goes on in war Then you will by listening to a podcast because of course on a podcast a soldier He can't really can't really describe what it's like shoving a bay in it through someone's eye. Do you not do you know what I'm saying? Whereas in a book you get sort of the The more undisclosed narrative. So yeah excursion to hell Was his first book mainly centered on mount longdon and it's a real eye opener And he's sorry his second book was Two sides of hell and then in that one he I think he flies to argentina and he interviews a lot of the argentinian Military or soldiers that fought down there Right, who was the guy you had on who wrote a whole book just about the first contact when the argentinians first took standing the first instance and there was only 70 or 80 of marines on the island that eventually Gave up and not surrendered but eventually put down their arms. Uh, you had a guy who wrote a book all about that That was extremely interesting. Yeah, that's ricky phillips. He wrote about the first casualty the first casualty He's just about to release another one. So he'll be back on the podcast to talk about that it's called I think it's called voices from stanley and It's a collection of the letters that were found that the Argentinians soldiers had had written to be sent home or that were sent home and Ricky's researched them and he's put them in a book So i'm looking looking forward to reading that one But yeah, the first casualty is about the actual invasion of the folklans so not not the war itself and it covers the The fight that uh eight eight nine oh one naval party put up. So that's basically a um A trooper marines. I think there was actually two troops there at the time That tried to fight off a thousand Argentinians Yeah, I mean it it it ended with a ceasefire the the governor rex hunt people call it a surrender but Apparently it was a ceasefire. They they organized a ceasefire I mean it would have been pretty foolhardy just to keep fighting bearing in mind that eventually All the marines would have been killed wouldn't they I mean what what could they do they could have hidden out in the hills for A few days possibly a few weeks at most before running out of food um Certainly no clean drinking water and of course running out of ammunition and so The governor rex hunt made a command decision that he wasn't gonna he wasn't gonna let that happen And then the the men of that party flew back to the uk via Via chili. I think it was I think they had a big knees up In chili and drank a hotel drive Something ridiculous. It's quoted as a hundred thousand dollars worth of Of alcohol then they flew back to the uk and they were repatriated with their units As the task will sail back down again So or I think some of them might have joined their their unit Ascension island that is interesting to know isn't it that some of those marines that um put their arms down at stanley at the very beginning Yeah, they weren't sort of just imprisoned somewhere in argentina They were just deported back to britain essentially and then they some of the very same guys Um took the island back Um, you know, that is that that is a very interesting Thing from just a historian's point of view. Um, you know, very very interesting But there's so many they say there are so many stories. I mean one of the ones we didn't touch on but I thought was Fascinating is the idea of operation macado. Do you know that one? It was an aborted thing that never happened But it was this idea when they thought that maybe the argentine air force would get the upper hand Against our sea harriers that there was some idea cooked up somewhere that um, they would Parachute in like an entire Um squadron of the sas or what like just load dozens of dozens of guys to blow up the argentinian airfields in In argentina and then just do a mess escape an evasion thing You know classic sas stuff, but you know a suicide mission for most of them you would expect And that they never did that they never pulled the trigger on that because it wasn't needed the harriers did sort of do the job. Um, but just think things like that, you know, I could talk Talk about that for ages. Um, and all the background shenanigans that went on. That's just one story That's something didn't even happen. Um, so yeah, there's there's so much there to talk about Hopefully this would just sort of wet the whistle of anyone that's interested in in the history of the falklands war And as I say just giving it this grand overview very broad strokes of the brush Yeah, I hope I haven't You know trod on the toes of you know, the survivors in any way. I hope you've been uh, as you say, uh Humble enough to to talk about it. No, but I think it's honorable that that For someone who was only one year old at a time that you you've taken an interest in in it and from from obviously, uh Let me say humanitarian perspective and I I'd uh Lord you for that Well, thank you. I mean, yeah, I mean if you ever did want to chat again about about anything I'd love to I mean if you're particularly interested in What would you be interested in if you did want to check in if you've got any particular favorites that you've just read tons about and Yeah, you've done a lot of work on Mao, haven't you chairman? Yeah, I did a massive series on Mao. Yeah, yeah Yeah, and the cultural revolution my god I think if um Everybody read a book that I read I've got it here somewhere around who wild swans by Jun Chang, I believe her name is have you read it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, Yun Chang has written lots and lots of books about about the Maoist period. Yeah, she's one of the Uh considered one of the main people at the moment writing about it. Yeah Yeah, she talks about three generations of Chinese of Chinese women growing up under Under Mao and it's just an incredibly eye-opening and almost horrifying account But it's also Quite pertinent at the moment when you see some of the stuff that's going on in our society or glow global society I mean when you hear terms like the great reset and all this All this kind of communist language and then you realize that Mao had his Was it the great leap forward? You can't make sense of what's happening now if you don't know your history So that's why I think it's great great having somebody like you on the podcast Oh cheers. Yeah. I mean so yeah, like leftist authoritarian censorship Yeah, if you want to see the extreme Ends that goes to Look no further than the Maoist period in China Um, yeah, and as you say, I suppose I agree. It is worrying that we're looking at the thin end of the wedge of that Right now in our own time and societies. Unfortunately. I fear Um, yeah Yes, definitely the topic for our next Conversation perhaps. Oh, yeah. I'm happy to revisit Mao. Absolutely. Yeah. I actually in that series I did 18 part series one of the first things I did a bit of an overkill in a way, but um Um, I didn't actually focus much on the cultural revolution I spoke loads mainly really about the great leap forward, which is slightly earlier that 10 years earlier or so But yeah, I could go into Lot more detail with you about the cultural revolution. Yes a fascinating and chorefying thing and Permanent as well perhaps. Yes, definitely definitely and your channel is history, bro Um, can people just type that into the search box on youtube and it will come straight up I'm guessing it it does should be able to yeah sure. You'll just get history, bro One word if you type that in and I'm on I'm on odyssey now as well. Um, but yeah a history, bro Excellent, and if you can send me your social media links, I'll put them below our our podcast All right cheers. Yeah, I haven't got many actually, but yeah I certainly could give you what I've got Yeah, so to everyone at home massive. Thank you um for joining us I hope you've enjoyed this chat as much as I have I strongly encourage you to go and Check out bo's channel And if you could like and subscribe that would be wonderful And bow just massive massive. Thanks again, mate. No, thank you for your time. Appreciate it. You're welcome