 We can win this war. We can win this war? OK, well joining us from Orlando, Florida is the man in that clip, Anthony Dream Johnson, who says he wants to abolish feminism and make women great again. No, but it also says, with the trademark, make women great again, for women, always great. Make women great again. They're going to do a three-day seminar for women led by all men. In mansplaining news, a three-day conference for women led by men hopes to make women great again. How the 22 convention will make you the greatest you ever. Raise your femininity by 500%. First of all, how is a man supposed to tell a woman how to be the ultimate woman? A woman needs to be taught how to be great again. Oh, yes, we do. How to land a husband. How to lose weight. How to pump out a bunch of kids. Why do men think they need to fix the problems of women? Well, it says the world's ultimate event for women. In Orlando, Florida, that's going to be the scene of the crime. It's mansplaining platoosa. And say no to the toxic bullying feminist dogma. Taught by men to make women great again. Taking the stage now is the founder of the 22 convention you're in for a treat, Mr. Anthony Dream Johnson. Anthony Dream Johnson. The first president of the manosphere. It's run by all men, which promises to, quote, make women great again. This course is guaranteed to raise your femininity by 500%. Together, we will make women great again. Excuse me. I'm mansplaining here. She said there's nothing wrong. Boom. Welcome back to the 22 convention 2021 of Orlando, Florida to make women great again. Being held at the 15-year anniversary of 21 Summit and 21 Studios. Our next speaker is a returning speaker to the 22 convention as well as a returning speaker alumni from our men's conventions for fathers and for men. He's a pastor, a Christian pastor, and a reverend and a very good friend I might have gotten to know the past couple of years. An amazing man. And last year I'd say his speech to women here at 22 was probably my favorite out of all of them I've seen so far and I've seen almost all of them at this point. It was very powerful and I've said it before and I'll say it again. The opening 10 minutes of his last year's speech, watch it on YouTube, hit the card or whatever side it's on who cares, click the card and watch it. The opening 10 minutes of that talk last year are the most powerful I've ever seen on video in my life. I'll never forget it. Watch it. You'll be blown away. Anyway, without further ado, please let me welcome back to the 22 convention stage, pastor Michael Foster. Yes, sir. Welcome back. Yes, sir. All right. Oh, is this on? All right. All right, ladies. I'm glad to be here with you. It's always fun to switch gears from talking to men to talking to women. So let's see if I can do this. I changed what I was going to talk about. So I'm going to try to make this work because one of the media guys in my church did this. So I wanted still to count for something. But after I talked to my wife last night I've been thinking about what would be helpful to women. You know, my goal here is certainly to be helpful and that's the goal. So I want to talk to you about February of 2019. Tweet go viral on Twitter. And that's kind of what put my social media on the map where I've been, you know, on Facebook forever and friends would share things. But in terms of having a much larger audience, it was a particular tweet that got 10,000, just shy of 11,000 comets, 4,000 retweets and 4,000 hearts. That's called getting ratioed where you have more comets than retweets. It usually means people are not happy and they weren't happy. Not at all. So much so that I got a thousand, at least a thousand emails and direct messages. I had a bunch of people try to get me fired at my job. I had a couple of death threats. I had a few people that found my wife online and said, hey, we'll help rescue you from this horrible, horrible man. Come with us. We'll find a safe place for you. Washington Examiner Magazine, Daily Wire, USA Today, Washington Post, various politicians and actors timed in on this thread of tweets I had. To me, it was pretty funny, to be honest. It's Twitter. People say, how did you deal with it? I was like, I put my phone down. I put my phone down and played with my kids and hung out with my wife. I have a life. But I still have not gone through all the direct messages I have on Twitter. Every once in a while, I go in there and just heart them. This is for fun. So anyway, what was the tweet? What resulted in this madness? Well, here's what caused it. I'm going to read it to you. It's four tweets. I greatly caution men when they're considering marrying a single mother. A lot of well-meaning, naive men have found themselves in a terrible marriage or worse because they've failed to ask the obvious question, why is she single with the kid? That was the first tweet. It was the other ones. It was how threads. There's a lot of people that apparently don't know how Twitter works. It wasn't the complete thought. The second one, I'm preparing for on-slide of white knights who deny female agency and see women only as passive victims. Scripture doesn't do that, but soft evangelical men do. Some single mothers are loose women. It's that simple. Now, the people that know that more than anything are women. I've heard women talk about other women, they're a way meaner than most guys are towards women. Nonetheless, I went on and said, maybe she's single because she's a widow. Maybe her husband died or something. Maybe she legitimately divorced from her husband. He's a terrible man or something. Maybe she made some terribly wicked decisions when she was younger and she isn't the same person. We all have past, right? Maybe, but maybe she's a harlot and still makes terribly wicked choices. Of course, the same could be true of men. No one denies that. You hear that warning all the time. But the sexes, as in men and women, are equally sinful. Red flags don't always turn out to be what they seem, but they can. Therefore, I make no apologies for cautioning men. So that's just like drove these people nuts. It's kind of funny to read it out loud in retrospect because to me, this is like obvious. Obvious stuff. I remember before I posted this, yeah, a couple months before I posted this, I was talking to a woman who had a man got her pregnant and ditched her when he found out that their baby was kind of major developmental problems. This guy's a coward. He's a loser, right? And I was talking to her like, how's it going? How's the market? It's like after the baby's been born. The baby was born like 20 weeks or something crazy. Super tiny baby. Ended up surviving. About a year after that, I asked her, how's dating coming and how's the market going and all that sort of stuff. And she told me, yeah, it's not going great and I understand that men are suspicious of me and they should be. Any time she said, any time I find out that he's the single father, I'm suspicious of him too. And it's just an honest woman. She's just being honest. She's not taking a political stance to conversation in the hallway. That's all it was. So why did I even post this? Why did I post something like this? Everyone always wants to know, well, what's the purpose, right? Shouldn't you say positive and encouraging things online, not this sort of device of rhetoric? At the time, I had taken a break from full-time ministry. I had been an associate pastor in the Presbyterian church. We had moved back to Cincinnati, Ohio. And I had a podcast and a blog called It's Good to Be a Man. And the main people I interacted with in a sort of ministerial sense, a day-to-day sense, people that are calling me were men. I think about women when I'm in my church, particularly. I have a responsibility to everyone, all ages, all sexes, whatever, that's in front of me. But at this particular time in my life, I had men in their particular problems on the mind. And I kept seeing these guys, men, believe it or not, are attracted to single mothers. They are. Single mothers, especially when they're young and just have kids, are very sexually attracted to men. Why is simple? Is that men, they're overwhelmed by a desire to protect her, to take care of her, to come in and help her. And she's displaying her fruitfulness, right? She still has the beauty of her youth and hears these children. And men want to protect. And single moms know this. And they know a lot of guys will come to their rescue. And some of them use that in an evil way, but some of them know just because a lot of guys will rush in and play a dad to her children. It doesn't mean that she necessarily wants to be with that guy. You mean be low quality. But nonetheless, they are very attracted because they have a desire to protect and provide. And a woman without a husband and children without a father are vulnerable, right? Men want to care for those that are vulnerable. I get the drive to help people in such a situation, but that doesn't mean you should marry them, right? Saying like you should be careful about marrying a single mother isn't saying that you shouldn't help them. It's not even saying that you shouldn't marry them. It's saying this is not the same thing as two people starting out from scratch. You enter into that relationship. You're not just marrying the woman, but another man's children. And he still may be part of the picture. And he may have rights. He may not have rights. He may be a dangerous man. There's a whole lot of things to consider when you're entering into the situation. You just need to go with your eyes wide open in a particular way. So that's why I put that out there. I have warned women about the same thing with single dads. You know, I know a babysitter who ended up marrying the guy that she used to babysit for after he divorced his wife. As far as I can tell, she was just a babysitter. And afterwards, I said, look, you're like 12 years younger than him and the kids are only 15 years younger than you. That's so weird dynamic. You sure you want to get into this? There's like six kids or something. There's a lot of kids. And so, yeah, I'll warn both sides. They didn't like that I said something negative potentially about single mothers. And they were really mad that I wouldn't delete it and I wouldn't apologize. And I have it. Every once in a while, I retweet it just for fun. The same one. I just retweet it. I'm not ashamed of this. This is good advice that would give anybody. Now, these days, I'm back to pastoring an entire congregation. Last year, when I said 21, our church was 20 people. And when I left, it was 200 people. Hopefully, that'll be the same when I get back. So, it's my job as a pastor to guide people through a really jacked up time. And I'm the last generation I've realized. I married my virgin high school sweetheart. We started dating in the 90s. I've been married to Emily for almost 19 years together for 23 years. We've had eight kids. One of them died. I talked about last year as with Anthony's referencing. And we have four boys, three girls. My favorite thing to do at night is to sit back with my wife and drink a glass of wine and talk and laugh with her. There's no dead marriage bed or anything like that. That's never been a struggle. We're happy. My marriage is an oasis in a dry land. I love what I have. And it's wonderful. And I didn't come into this world because I was divorced or I had struggled with the ladies or anything like that. I didn't come here because I'm mad at women. I came here because I love men and want to figure out how to help them. And then Anthony started doing 22. I want to help women too. I really do. Do you think it's a little harder to help women? I feel like men are hated more than women, but women are lied to more than men. That would be my observation. They're lied to about their femininity. They're trained to hate their feminine glory and deference and all those things. And so helping a person when they know they're being mistreated is easier than someone that's been deceived by lies. And you have to kind of bring someone through this awakening with ladies. And that's difficult and often emotional. It hasn't always been my favorite thing to go through, but the issue that we're facing is that people like me are disappearing. And if we're going to help relationships happen, that's going to mean that often people are going to get married who have been divorced or have had a ton of sexual partners, right, who have done shameful things. And they're going to come into these marriages, sometimes with kids, certainly with regrets. And it's, again, not the same thing as starting from scratch. So we have to decide. Are we just going to ignore those people? We can't do that. Because sometimes you build the future, right, from the rubble. You know, it's like repurposing wood. Emily and I liked it. We don't watch it anymore, but we got sucked into those shows where, like, fixed houses. But we got suckered into this one show where he's all about reclaiming, like, old wood and old cast iron and building something beautiful out of it. It's just cool, right? And with rubble, with broken lives, you can reclaim some of that and build beautiful things from it. I want to read you an email I got last week. I'm going to try not to cry because it'd be really embarrassing. All right. It's not beautiful. It's embarrassing. So Emily and I got this last week. It's a long email, but I want to read it to you. Hello, Pastor Foster. This is from a woman. I sincerely hope this email does not waste your time, but it's impressing on my heart to write and both apologize to you and also thank you. I don't have a past to be proud of. It's a dramatic story where a lot of my hard life experiences were due to a lot of poor choices I made in the result of natural consequences from living selfishly, rebelliously, and unrighteously, but the grace of God. And forgiveness has found me and made me alive in Christ in January of 2019. After a year of claiming to be a Christian but living absolutely contrary to the word of God, it was zero fruit or desire for righteousness in my life. As a baby Christian, I brought a lot of terrible ideology into my new faith that I had to untangle, hold up to the lens of Scripture and sort through. A lot of that was feminism as well as being bitter and scarred against men from being abused by them physically, emotionally, and sexually in my past. When I discovered you in your podcast, I hated you, Pastor Foster. I'm sure that comes as no surprise. It didn't. You seem to get that reaction a lot. While I've taken off my egalitarian hat or so, I thought I was very anti-patriarchy and I thought you were one of those Christian men who hated women and just wanted to use the Bible to manipulate and control women that you had a weak sense of masculinity and that you were using patriarchy to cover for and mask your insecurities. I'm so sorry. I bluntly spoke out against you and condemned your words on social media. I even went so far as to say that anyone who listened to your podcast was likely an abuser or had the character traits of an abuser and should be steered clear of any man who identifies with what you said. I am so, so sorry. I became a single mother after many years of being married to a very mentally ill man who refused treatment, was drug addicted, an alcoholic, a chronic porn addict, and a serial adulterer. I left after another round of infidelity when I decided that despite those years of I'm sorrys, he didn't really mean it. He was unrepentant and would never change no matter what he said or promised. Oh, how I still hate hearing promises for men to this very day, from them being so empty and worthless for so long. I left on what I sincerely believed was biblical grounds. After our divorce was finalized, he then went on to commit suicide. I was so sensitive about being a single mom, I constantly felt the need to justify myself to other Christians, and proved that I was in the right and I was biblically validated because I was so afraid of the judgment and stigma that came with being a single mother of three kids and a new Christian. You once made a comment that is generally advisable to not date single moms and to be wary of single mothers and I hated you for it. It's not exactly what I said, but nonetheless I get it, I get it. I took it so personally because I was a single mom desperate for a second chance at life, at marriage, at a good father for my kids and I felt like men like you were telling all good Christian men out there to steer clear of me that it was a liability and that you were giving me the scarlet letter of condemnation, it felt so unfair. Fast forward a bit and God has deeply grown my faith and has done a huge work of my heart with sanctification and helped me grow into godly Biblical womanhood. He taught me so much about marriage, tender roles, the beauty of male headship, the joy of a godly submission to a godly man, his created order for the family. It's actually become one of my most passionate topics. God did bless me with a husband who loves the Lord, loves me, loves my children as his own and has been incredibly healing and redemptive in seeing what it's like to be led by a man who embraces godly masculinity who's both humble and a strong leader, a spiritual teacher who owns his God-given responsibilities as a father and a husband. He has integrity and honor, he is faithful, he keeps his word, he admits when he's wrong and doesn't blame shift. He calls me out in a way that doesn't shame me but inspires me to want to be better. He has given me the space and freedom to rest in femininity to help her, a wife. And he's made me much better mother to my children than I ever was before he came along. As my understanding of godly general roles and biblical marriage and households have shifted, I found myself curiously and continually trun to your social media pages. Poor woman. I looked and read and found myself agreeing more than I disagreed. I was so confused with myself because I used to abhor the things you said but I'd peek at your tweets or your Facebook profile and admit this is good. At first I'd justify it with, well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But then I found you were right more and more and more. And I was suddenly finding myself inspired by and edified with what you said, agreeing with it and seeing that the character traits I admired so much of my husband reflected in the qualities of being a husband and dad that you discussed. Finally tonight, I listened to your interview on this she allusions which is a podcast led by women. I went on to promote my book and I nearly broke down. This is so hard to read. Pastor Foster, you are so kind. You are compassionate. You are patient and down to earth and genuine. I've never heard you verbally speak before, only right. In your words were fire wrapped up in grace. It's probably the best podcast interview I've ever heard in my life. My husband has never heard of you before but he's on a long flight layover and I urged him to go listen to while waiting for his flight. He loved it and he agrees. It was phenomenal. It's ironic because I remember how I said I was so offended by your comments about single mom or do you remember how I said that? That came to mind as I listened to the podcast and realized how hypocritical I was because even when I was dating my husband it was one of my greatest insecurities that he wouldn't stick around because I knew I was a liability. I used to tell my friends I know how I look on paper and it isn't good. I wouldn't blame him if he ran out of the baggage of coming with trauma on kids. Praise the Lord he gave me a strong and compassionate man who firmly told me to stop trying to scare him away that nothing I told him about my past scares him and that I need to let him make his own choices in life right now. He's choosing me and all that comes with me. One of my first experiences of being loving Lee and rightly put in my place by the leadership of a man. Point being even I had agreed with your statements about single moms in it. I knew man had a right to be cautious about me and wary of me given what I've been through. My past marital history and having three traumatized kids. I think that may have been generally your point you never said to write them off completely but investigate why they're a single mom what comes with it and really decide if you want to deal with that because it's a lot to take on. I get it now I was just too wounded then to see it objectively. I'm so sorry for the way I judged you and spoke out about you in the past. I'm sorry for having a bitter heart towards your words and ministry and thank you for being a strong steadfast servant of the gospel and being faithful to your calling to minister to men. Thank you for having a spine and not letting all the hate and pushback you get online cause you to waiver. Thank you for pressing on despite people like who I was maybe more often like me will come around I couldn't stand you and now I see your insight as an immense blessing and I look forward to it since my husband liked your interview so much I'm buying him your new book for Christmas if you took the time to read this thank you I don't deserve your time and energy as a stranger but I think you sincerely for it respectfully. I don't I'm not I don't care about those angry emails it's part it comes with the territory they killed Jesus right you said if you follow me people will hate you it's alright but things like this things like this will keep me going for a while right this is what ministry to me is about is being there for people going through things like this and staying calm when they're angry with you it's it's beautiful right it's beauty from ashes it's hope from despair is a healthy marriage from a dark dark time and there is hope ladies there are hope for those of you here who I don't know and those online who are hearing that aren't going to be a virgin bride and have had things happen and have scars and things there's there's hope there's a life there are certain men in the manasphere that'll seek to shame you it's out of their insecurities and anger and all that stuff right don't listen don't listen I do want to give you two areas to consider if you're willing to leave that pain and move towards traditional femininity and I'm just going to be frank I don't really care about traditional femininity I care about biblical femininity I'm a Christian I want you all to convert to Christianity I want you all to believe in Jesus Christ believe he's the way the truth and life and no one comes to fathers after them that's truth right but as you move in a more traditional direction you've got to start somewhere there are some things I would encourage you to consider some areas I think of it as the bike chain metaphor remember this when you were a child but the bike chain would fall off the bike and so you put the chain around the bigger gear and then you put a little bit of it on one of the teeth of the other gear and you turn the pedals and as you turn the pedals it pops the chain back on and you can ride your bike and you don't need detailed instructions you don't need GPS instructions you just need somewhere somewhere to begin somewhere to start and I just want to give you a few ideas to consider and maybe think about them in a different way I'm going to be drawing from Proverbs 7 since my guy made this and I had to find a way to work it in and that's where in Proverbs the king father Solomon is warning his son not to fall into the webs of an immoral woman and she's depicted as a prostitute or what scripture would call a harlot or a whore or a thought nowadays I guess whatever and he's warning him because he doesn't want to see his life be destroyed by a woman who is a liability and you ladies don't want to be a liability but my wife is a multiplier she's a multiplier it's amazing a man can give a woman a little bit of sperm and she can make a person today is my son Hudson's birthday 15 years old we've had all these kids together I can give my wife some money and buy her a house and she'll make it beautiful she built me a library come in there cuddle with my books they're my pets I love books you give a woman flour and she makes a loaf of bread women are multipliers they're not a liability they're an asset to the man one of the greatest assets a man can ever have to level up in life he needs a good woman by his side and I think what women want more than anything is a worthy man to be alongside of right so you want to be an asset you don't want to be a liability you want to be Mrs. Right, not Mrs. Wrong see, tie it in, there you go don't be Mrs. Wrong found a way, years of preaching but I do want to point out two areas where you don't want to be like this woman you want to be an asset so these are the things that if you work towards it will help you in your marriage or it will help you become someone that doesn't drive a quality man away but holds him right, holds his attention so the first one is you're at tire let's start there, okay this is a very emotional subject with women so you're at tire, you're clothing the wise father says, and behold he is dressed as a harlot clothing is a form of communication it says something about us how we dress for example the Babylonian warriors that surrounded Nineveh were decked out in scarlet in Nahum chapter 2 verse 3 one commentator says the valiant men are in scarlet not only red clothes to intimate what bloody work they designed to make but rich clothes to intimate the wealth of the army and that is the sinews of war so they're dressed up to scare people to remind them what's about to happen the very dress communicates something the wealthy often dress in such a way to communicate power and prestige people want to know or want you to believe that they have wealth the penitent often dress in such a way to communicate their humility and grief over sin are you wearing a white dress or a red dress to a funeral you're not, you're going to wear a black one it's sad, a lifespan loss the royal virgin daughters in second Samuel dressed in such a way to communicate their purity or in one very sad case the loss of it so on a wedding day that's the symbology behind a white dress so what does a harlot communicate with her clothing well the simple answer is her sexual availability sexual here being erotic so there's nothing wrong with a woman to communicate her sexuality she should actually that's distinct from sexual availability in the erotic sense she is dangling the possibility of sex in exchange for something she desires from someone she desires it from the desire could be from money that's what a lot of guys think but sometimes this is attention or a plethora of other things sometimes she's motivated by economics other times she's a twisted product of wicked shaping influences such as molestation and abuse I it's my job to shepherd the sheep that God gives me and I have learned to identify seed traits among women that are sexually abused there's a way that they actually communicate it through their posture their eyes and their dress and I'll come back to that in a moment regardless a woman dressed in a modest clothing should and does communicate with a stranger to a wise man so look if you dress with things hanging out in a way they shouldn't you will attract losers right you will and they may be macho losers but if your desire is to build a life together with somebody like you're not going to attract good men because they're going to say I know what that is and maybe some of them will have a fun night maybe but most of them will steer clear thinking of some of the guys you know and the women they marry and you think well he's to date more beautiful women than that they settle with her why is that I think women know I think the people listening know so I'm not even going to explain it but I think they know and if not that's what Q&A is for these women are like a brightly colored snake beautiful to look at deadly to touch now I know people will want me to lay out some standards for immodest and modest clothing it's always annoying right what's modest in this society not in that society so on and so forth well I'll say two things to help communicate immodest clothing is clothing that makes a woman or even a man into a spectacle this spectacle could come in the form of too much or too little or too tight it makes you scream sexuality or sexuality screams a beauty in a sense of volume right you turn volume down too much you can't hear it you can't enjoy music you turn it up too high even though you can hear it you still can enjoy it think of your beauty existing as sound and modesty being getting it set at just the right volume it's clothing or makeup that accentuates aspects for sexuality to the extent that it's hard to ignore right there's a way you can be beautiful and not hoarse in your dress right and there's another way that you can accentuate particular parts like I saw the Salma Hick who for like a 50 something woman like it's like she doesn't age but I just saw I don't have it I don't really have television at my house but they're here at the hotel I turned it on like an idiot and I guess the Eternals is some Marvel movie coming out that she's in and it was like well she wants us to know that she has big breasts mission accomplished right like I mean she like covered like barely her areola and it's like so obvious that that's in modest clothing but if you have large breasts you can't hide them I mean you can't do anything about it and there's a way you can like not be ashamed of that and still dress in a modest way without accentuating it and everyone knows that you don't want to make yourself into a spectacle I remember I was at a wedding once and this woman were a halter top a red halter top like a little miniskirt and I'm not easily offended I couldn't roll with most things but I was like man I was like so close what the hell you know like so you're like the brides walking up and your eye is on the chicken the red halter top everybody was thinking what in the world is this woman doing here she made herself into a spectacle right in other words her femininity was it was in a highlight it was a distraction of the situation so dress is a has to be appropriate and it's like I don't wear flip-flops to church it's disrespectful why is it disrespectful does well God sees you in your naked he does bad for him right but but it's just improper to the situation because it's supposed to be a solemn time you set aside so it doesn't mean you have to like come in a tux or something but they're like we all know this and so you want to dress in such a way that's appropriate now modest clothing doesn't hide a woman's sexuality I remember this young man when I was a youth pastor he was telling me how this girl was stumbling him into sin she just keeps stumbling me she makes me lust I'm like alright well I'm not sure about it and then I see how she dress and she layers slightly back slightly bag of jeans not skin tight but relatively tight in a like a woman would and then a big college sweater and I was like hey dude it's your problem like this she is dressed modestly you're just a horn dog and you gotta get it under control like this is she's beautiful like that's not her fault that she is beautiful it's your fault that you can't control it man because I think if we put that woman in a burka that you're still gonna like she's gotta cover her eyes we're gonna soon have her wearing sunglasses right this guy and so modest clothing doesn't hide a woman's sexuality it's never ever a good sign when a woman is ashamed of her womanliness well here's here's the edgy part of this one I'll say I was with my wife at a concert there was a Christian singer that she really liked and I so I went because I didn't like the Christian singer but I really liked the girl I was dating at the time which is not my wife so you know you do what you gotta do so I go and as a girl singing I'm watching her and I said that she's a lesbian and she's like no she's not I was like and I bet she was molested and like I had insight but I just didn't have any control of my tongue when I was younger and like I should have known like your wife's favorite singer you probably shouldn't say hey I think that's a molested lesbian out there I was like not doesn't make the date go well and it did it everyone was so mad at me so mad that I'd say that and then I explained I was like well she's hiding her face her hair drops over in such a way it's really strange she can't make eye contact she keeps hiding her boobs and everything like super baggy clothes and just the way she walked with the masculine gate was very strange to me and this is what I'd seen in people I knew had been molested oh you're jumping into conclusion blah blah blah well fast forward 11 years later she comes out as a lesbian right she's like I've been a lesbian the whole time I was like I actually emailed it to some people that went on the date with us they were super mad I feel like you're gloating I was like I can't win now she has instead if she's been molested or not but I'm willing to guess she has now here's how I get to that when a woman's molested her sexuality which is a God-given gift attracted a predator to her right he was attracted to her because of her beauty and he abused her right so he he groped her he touched her he used her and now her breasts her beauty her hips feel as a liability to her and so she's got to do some way to she's got to do something to reclaim safety so what some of them will do is just hide their curves because it's fear it's like instinctual the other thing I've seen happen with molestation victims most men are weak and beta how do you get past this how do you be a real man how do you be a husband and a father that has been where we dropped the ball as men is because we're too accepting we're too tolerant I'm calling for intolerance for evil we need to be able to properly identify with the definition what is masculinity we need men to stand up and do heroic things building a tribe of people who are of like mind who you can depend on who will hold you accountable who will call you on your V.S. I call the official tagline for now is America's last stand for masculinity I think it is a reflection of the hemisphere really you come out and you consciously attend and start talking with these people because people who are coming here are coming here to discuss big ideas important ideas not just talking about being masculine but okay you've done all the self development what are you going to do with it is that they go the opposite direction they turn their sexuality up and they start dressing in a very loose way people will say well maybe she always wanted it no you don't understand what's going through her mind and she realizes that her sex is power and she's turning it up as leverage to control the right men and keep them away but because of the abuse of men the volumes all jacked up on her modesty right and so anytime I see a woman ashamed of her sexuality I'm bothered too I don't hear about that in the hemisphere it's like they dress like sluts I'm like well that's problematic I agree but I'm worried about women that are ashamed of their femininity why are you hiding your beauty your beauty is to be displayed like a man's strength is to be displayed it's what makes you different from us right when women are ready to get pregnant they actually sway their hips more and as guys they're like following that and like maybe we'll do nine kids we're this far in there's another seat in the van but they sway women sway their hair blows they move it's attracted it's grace when they come into a room think of the old dancers from the 30s to the early 60s the way they move they don't move like men they move like women there's a way male ballet dancers dance in the way ballerinas and they're distinct actually it's very different and women there's a grace about them and we don't want women's beauty muted we don't want their sexuality muted we just don't want it turned up in a way that makes it all eros right and not just grace and so you want to work really you want to be thoughtful you are already thoughtful about it I mean most women's magazines editor and chief is a woman I see what they talk about in those magazines because I got to buy milk sometimes you know so you want to a quality man is looking for a woman that loves being a woman right love her hair the smell love her dresses love all of it she embraces her femininity she isn't ashamed of her curves her lips or hair but she also possesses the godly character to resist the modern temptation to monetize it to turn it all the way up and that's partially demonstrated in her dress and especially how she dresses in pictures posted on social media let me give you a tip and go through the last couple months and if she's dressed in a way that you don't like probably pass you know probably pass man because that's not good behavior and these are rules of thumb there's flexibility there's some women that posted some things that just lacked judgment so when I was dating M we both were converts to Christianity in our late teens and M would wear spaghetti straps so it's just the top little bit of cleavage and a spaghetti strap I mean she was 15 very innocent she didn't even know I caught each other just the right time we both were entering our potential she didn't even know she was beautiful I did but she was still ugly duckling I love her 8th grade picture her freshman year and she's beautiful she came into her own little ugly duckling swan thing but she didn't know about the spaghetti straps or how it came across to some guys she didn't know and one of our male friends mentioned it to her I mean I liked her so I probably was stumbled by it but I didn't mind it but so she stopped wearing that right and so some women maybe are not being smart on social media but they're not like predatory or whatever I can tell you that I do point men to check that out you should think very carefully about the image that you craft online look loser guys you could be seriously a thousand pounds and disgusting looking and they would tell you you're beautiful don't make too much of that praise you get online I mean it's not as valuable it might feel good even like a guy like me the dopamine hit hits me too and I say oh it's been retweeted a bunch of times but I mean how does it relate to real life so some things to consider so work on your attire like embrace your feminine grace and beauty work towards that second this is your attitude I have noticed that I've been in the patriarchal movement for a long time in the church it's weird it's weird I won't lie it's some freaky weird people in there and I've kind of moved more mainstream these days I've just seen some really weird behavior that I would drive normal people away and I've noticed that when people leave feminism ladies they kind of do this like all the trad people on Twitter are super annoying they are like it's always pictures of like beautiful women and Greek men and like a baby like on a beach and it's like that's what life looks like but I noticed that women when they're leaving feminism some of them will grow their hair out and always wear a dress and kind of have the trappings of femininity and I remember this one girl was like that at this church that I attended and she had gorgeous red hair she was a very attractive woman she was against women wearing pants I remember this she was talking to me and my wife my wife who had pants on at the time which is okay there's only two types of pants there's man pants and sexy pants she said well you're wrong you forgot the third category she said what's that I said sexy man pants there is a third category but but her she would talk to me like we're equals she's not my equal I am a ordained minister I've served in the church for 20 years I've got a slew of degrees I had to work hard to get where I'm at I'm married happily married I've raised a bunch of kids and she's talking to me in a way that I wouldn't talk to someone above my station there's men that like older men I was at a trade show this past week this week it was a long week and this older guy came by I said what have you learned through your sales you've retired you're a consultant now could you give me a couple pointers and when he talked I just got quiet I knew my place I wanted to learn and benefit from this wiser person that girl acted like she could talk to me like we're on the same level first off I'm a man there should be a level of deference to me I treat women different there's a level of deference I have towards them and she was dressed up in feminine beauty but she had a ugly attitude she's larping she doesn't have the core of feminine I rather her have short hair just jeans but have the heart and beauty the attitude first that's way more important and that brings me to what I consider to be the the clearest indicator that a woman is a bad candidate for a wife she is loud now let me explain this comes from Proverbs 711 she is loud and stubborn her feet do not stay at home this is a woman you must avoid that you must avoid her because she's destructive now loud doesn't mean what you think it is a loud woman is not necessarily one who speaks with too much volume the Hebrew word can be translated as boisterous or tumultuous it speaks of turbulence or commotion it's meant to bring the mind a roaring wind of a storm and therein we find a good metaphor for a loud woman she's like a storm she's full of unruly energy she yields only to her own purpose and I've seen guys with these women who there's just like drama constant drama and they're like the guy's like a boat out in a rough waters being tossed every which way and she just commands everything she drowns him out in her noise in her loudness this definition of a loud woman comes further in focus when we consider how loud Anne Stubborn is paralleled against her feet do not stay at home this woman has a husband she's supposed to be submitted that's the worst thing about this woman in Proverbs 7 she's adulterous too she's not just a fornicator but she already has another man he's away from home she's supposed to be submitted to her husband's mission it's his home she should be caught up in the work of building however she's often in her own thing to the home of one man old Puritan preacher put it this way by her place not her own house she hates the confinement and employment of that her feet abide not there any longer than needs must she is all forgetting abroad changing place and company now is she without in the country under pretence of taking the air now on the streets of the city under pretence of seeing how the market goes there and everywhere but where she should be she lies and waits at every corner to pick up such as she can make prayer of virtue as a penance to those whom home is a prison right the loud woman hates the home because the home represents submission to a will besides her own to Betty Friedan all these second third wave feminists in particular really hate home life they're always glorifying the career mindset what is a corporation a corporation is an emaciated household generally households used to not just be a place where you watch Netflix and chill a household was a place of production you had like the front was like the blacksmith's shop and you lived upstairs or in the back or whatever and so families would work together men and women and children would work together in the home and they would produce things and what happened is that got moved out and eventually it was housed in corporations corporation means a body of corpus their households and in these corporations usually they have a patriarch or two at the top usually the CEO is a man 95% of all major corporations American are still male, lad and that means you're going to serve the patriarchy most likely if you're going to work in corporate America it's a reduced house but they don't care about you they don't care about men either I used to work as a hiring manager for a 10,000 person corporation and we just needed live bodies half the time and I'd be really sometimes like yeah she seemed like a nice girl or a nice guy but like I gotta keep them coming right but if I die or my wife dies we will never be forgotten by our children understand? in my home we matter my reward is my children is my grandchildren and so I see women being told to hate the home they're going to go serve some other reduced home some emaciated form of it where their value they're praised to keep you chained there right chained to your desk to your middle management not best often this woman hates the home therefore she prowls for a fool who will help her achieve her ends Proverbs 7.10 says the verses prior this is Keel and Dilich which they're Hebrew experts I know you guys been reading them so anyway they explain her motives she is of a hidden mind of a concealed nature for she feigns fidelity to her husband and flatters her paramours as her only beloved while in truth she loves none each of them is only to her a means to end to the indulgence of her world essential desire we know women like this loud women are women that swing from man to man like monkey swing from branches to branches the men exist to serve her mission to help her along women don't want to be played by players men don't either and women are like that we all know women like that some of them are your friends perhaps you were perhaps you are they're useful the men this is so much that they allow her to fulfill her desire Sheryl Sandberg in a great example of a loud woman in her book Lean In she was or is over Facebook she writes when looking for a life partner my advice to women is date all of them the bad boys the cool boys the commitment phobic boys the crazy boys but do not marry them the things that make the bad boys sexy do not make them good husbands when it comes time to settle down someone who wants an equal partner someone who thinks women should be smart opinionated and ambitious someone who values fairness and expects or even better wants to do his share in the home these men exist and trust me over time nothing is sexier it's bull crap like women are attracted to men because they do the dishes like they may be helped by it and thankful for it that's what gets you off come on like no it doesn't you're attracted to men when they're masculine they do masculine things like there's a difference between being helpful and actually being found attractive so what makes a husband good according to Sandberg it's a man who doesn't get in the way of his wife's ambitions this is why the commanding alpha males of her youth won't do they'll buck against her demands and manipulation Sandberg like all loud women eventually settle on a compliant man who knows who's in charge and this of course is an inversion of the biblical pattern manhood is ultimately about a man building God's house by building his own this work cannot be fulfilled alone it requires a woman hence God brought Eve to Adam as a helper she's a necessary compliment to the mission of the man but she isn't the mission I can't there's this xenophone great Greek guy uh he wrote a lot of he wrote the first kind of like you know how there's what to expect when expecting on how to raise babies real famous book that everyone gives I got like five of them that's what happens we have a bunch of kids but he wrote a book on how to run a house and in it he says without my wife I would die oh our romantic hearts but he meant without my wife I would die to survive in the ancient world it takes a man and a woman to raise children that are well adjusted a father and a mother to build a household that lead to other households that shape society and lead to something great it takes both sexes working together we compliment each other and a loud woman will not submit herself to such a situation right I am seeing a lot of sad sad women in their 40s 50s and 60s right now right I see a lot of sad men too right there's a influential man in the monastery that says there's no such thing as the lonely old bachelor like talking about men oh crap there absolutely is I have to go to their house and drive them to their doctor appointments for their diabetes as a pastor I know they exist and they are very lonely but there are lonely women right you know because they call you constantly and as a pastor we used to get together with the older people in our church and a lot of them were women because the men wouldn't come and they often were widowed or just the kind of old spinsters that never got married and I spent hours with them at breakfast and they didn't always say we need to do more together we need more attention and I'm like man I spend more time with you than I do with almost anyone else in their church and what you realize is that energy they have the desire to be in relationship and nurture and build should be focused at this stage of their life really on their husband and their grandkids probably there are none people lied to you they lied to you and told you go serve this other house don't serve this house and loud women like brag about like women only say men are intimidated by independent women no we're not we just don't want any why would I want an independent woman this is a partnership when I get married we're coming together to work together I'm not independent of my wife either we depend on each other independent women are just idiots that's all they are it's a game it's a big lie and don't fall for it man I can't wait to get home I almost hate calling them FaceTime because it reminds you what you're missing it's better to give yourself to your work but I leave home I'll write like 4 sermons I'm really ahead I don't want to get in trouble so I just work 13 hours a day I'll catch up on email or whatever I love being with my wife and kids we are building a home we are building a legacy together and I don't know you women I don't know your past if you're here you're a little strange something's brought you to this place but if you have a history a sexual history a bad marriage bad decisions you've done things it's time to repent it is repentance is a change of attitude and action to turn from one direction to another and there are men out there that have passed like yours not perfect but men that aren't bitter towards women men that do want to build something and I grew up in a broken home when you grow up in a broken home with a father that's absent my dad wasn't abusive he just didn't teach me how to be a man you learn things in your 30s that you should have learned in your 20s and you learn things in your 40s you should have learned in your 30s I'm always going to be behind a decade or whatever it's just going to happen you may not have that perfect life that you see all these people retweet on Twitter or online or whatever but you can have something amazing you can have something good I mean there's still time and look it's how you finish the race it's what everyone says because Shay's stick because there's a deep truth and so that's what I want to tell everyone listening here and online don't be Mrs. Wrong start to cultivate feminine beauty work at your attire but the principle below it is more important and then work on your attitude and in the sense that you want to be a blessing to another man and you want to look for a man that is worthy and not a perfect man you're going to die you're all going to die it moves quick quick quick quick and if you keep sitting around waiting for the perfect man it's going to be over right? but there you can have a life together I was talking to one of these Migtow guys men going their own way, they're anti-marriage and I'm like alright so he's like I would only marry a 25 year old he's like in his 40s I was like well I don't think you're going to get married but maybe you will I don't know she laughs at your jokes she's beautiful you've got good connection maybe she's had some past relationships but she likes and respects you and you can see yourself hanging out with her swinging on the swing, going to concerts together working in the garden together you're telling me you wouldn't marry that woman and he got really slow I said well he said yeah I probably would marry that woman I was like come on so it's a rough time we can rebuild from the rubble and that is my exhortation to you I appreciate your time, thank you so much we have a couple minutes for Q&A if you have any questions call I think you should come to the mic right so it's recorded you're broken, okay I'll repeat it then go ahead my favorite subject I mean I think the core of what I said well they're not going to make eye contact a lot of times when I deal with abused women I sit in a chair in front of them I'm six foot one 265 pounds, I'm scary loud so when I'm trying to build relationships it's like a safe place to be I make myself smaller you're always in your body you are your body it's part of your person and how you communicate with everything so I notice an inability to make eye contact a lot of times on the flip side there's that weird empty stare that you've noticed with people there's a name for it but I'm not going to say it but there's a weird stare that some of those women have what you notice is just something there's an appropriateness that's broken right like this guy I told him that he needs to work on his eye contact with women and I told him this like two years ago and that ran into me out of the conference and I said I see you've been working on your eye contact because you haven't looked away from me for like two minutes man staring at me I was like dude are we going to fight what's going on I was like are you looking at women this way because if I was a woman I don't think I'd want so you understand with all these things everyone wants to reduce it down to these really simple things but actually there is a principle at play here so someone that stares really hard never breaks eye contact there's some aggressive attitude going on there for some reason a woman that can't make her eye contact or a man for that matter there's something really there's a deep insecurity coming out for some reason there could be lots of reasons it's very important not to jump to conclusions with people I've formed judgments when I meet everybody but my judgments are running judgments new information adjusts to judgments my judgments are never final I'm not God only God knows everything so I think just learning to watch those behaviors are really important they're going to be abused usually by family members so don't be stupid don't leave little girls alone with cousins and stuff so yeah a few thoughts hi last year Elliot Hulse talked about what made his marriage great what his wife did so could you tell us the characteristics of your wife that make her Mrs. right for you she's really I love M's real practical very practical woman real straight to it a woman of action so I don't have patience for I don't know I don't know if there's any other woman I could ever be married to frankly so yeah she fits me so well let's see what I liked about her when I met her was that she was just enjoyable like responsive and she wanted to be with me she wanted to go where I went it wasn't like a puppy though but she was just excited to go and I remember when I liked her and she didn't know she thought I liked her friend but I didn't at all she was the one I was interested in and I hadn't wanted to be dating at all because it just become a Christian relationship previously and I just wanted to work on my own thing and then she kind of pops in on the scene and like you know I couldn't couldn't help it but so we we wrote letters for a long time and then I walked her home one night and said look I'm really interested in you and I would love to get to know you more I said however I know I'm going to the ministry I know I'm going to be away a lot I might be probably going to be poor but I know I'm going to be hated by a lot of people and if you can't see yourself being married to a man like that there's no reason for us to go into this right that's your decision and that like had this opposite effect made her swim right so she's like a guy doing something so she's always been responsive to my lead I never have to like I always have guys write me like how do you tell get a woman to submit well how does the earth get the moon to stay in its orbit right like I have a drive, I know where I'm going and she responds to it these guys think you can like leverage you can't leverage anyone by pure force into doing anything you know against their will and so she's just responsive to my leadership I think that's it she's beautiful, love her freckles freckles are nice, didn't like freckles that matter though it's a crazy thing one more or two more I appreciate your secure masculine leadership and so I want to ask you a question sure I would respect the answer you're couching this if a woman feels like like I feel like I have been missioned by God to do something on this earth is significant therefore yes and partnering with a secure masculine I crave to help him emotionally, physically spiritually and I also crave to be supported in the same way and you mentioned it always is his mission first so how do you marry two important missions you don't you're doomed now let me prove it let me prove it to you okay so here's kind of how it works go back to the issue of gravity right so both the earth and moon revolve around the sun right so they in that sense they have the same mission going around the same thing but there is still a secondary orbit where the moon goes around the earth together or it's held in a path anyhow so missions they can run a line perl for a time if they're perfectly aligned but if they're not they're like this right or even just like that in time they pull apart and what you have to come to conclusion is what you have to work through is there an intrinsic difference ontologically, spiritually and biologically between men and women and if there is does their nature determine their roles or are we androgynous spirits that are more or less have interchangeable responsibility and roles so we have to decide and so there's a deep anthropology at work here when you get into this I'm kind of staying in a practical level here but when you get to the anthropology if men and women are more or less interchangeable then I can see how the idea of co-emissions will work but how do you have two generals have two different missions so how do they have two different missions well they have to serve the greater mission so there's still got to be a greater mission and then there's got to be a leader I got an email from a pastor once said from co-senior pastors I was like what does that even mean how can you be co-senior pastors aren't you just co-pastors or a senior pastor you can't be co-senior pastors it doesn't make any sense so you'll have to decide if you think there's an actual difference between men and what is the relevance to how you order your life so if you decided there's differences well what would be an example of one a difference between men and women that order your life well at the core a man craves a woman craves to be protected and at the core a man craves to protect that's one that's good not women will protect the children of course so then let's take that one okay alright so at the core a man wants to protect that front in her dangerous zone well that's yes a man right so who's taking the lead then the man at that point alright so he's like you guys can have a mission that work together but you still got to be out in front and you're going to be following behind in a sense right and that maybe just so we don't get our terminology confused we could talk past each other and what I mean by mission or whatever I don't want to do that but I just think that the man is the one leading the mission and the missions it's not that a woman doesn't have one I can't for example one of my favorite scenes and I can't remember what movie it was but it's a king and a queen and the king is about to he wants to kill the intruder sounds like the anitis when he looks at his wife in 300 yes and he looks to her and she gives him the nod I hate that part of that movie but go ahead the thing I appreciate about that is because her femininity is respected by his masculinity in that moment when he does the war part but the feminine embodiment is that they can see a full picture and they're in partnership and he still takes the lead yeah to me it came across as some seeking feminine validation can I do the right thing in this time I can see you're saying that women are civilizing refining force with men that's good and I don't disagree with that by all means I would agree there there's things I simply can't do that my wife can and it's way beyond cooking and cleaning way beyond it's different energies I agree there I do think though that having they're completely complimentary you just have to think it through and again with terminology maybe what we're saying here is very close but I don't think my wife is responsive to my initiation I'm the actor she's a reactor right and so I always think about how it's crazy like even take the sexual act a woman receives a man into her body and then the Ova receives the sperm into it it's a very vulnerable place it is for a woman and that's why women want to know a man can provide and that's interpreted as being a gold digger literally about to be tied to a child for a long long time her ability to protect and provide for herself is about to be limited it's fair for her to want to know that you got some skin in the game and that you can actually provide and protect her but again there's this initiating force that men have and women have a reactive force or energy that they play off each other how do you want to use that so that is my best answer you're similar to the place I appreciate it anyone else? hey I really appreciate it thanks so much it's a better crowd than last year last year they were kind of mean so I heard coach Greg got rid of them I had to follow Jesse Lee Peterson too and that's always a hard act have you had Jesse in here yet? well enjoy thank you ladies we can win this war we can win this war thanks for joining us from Orlando Florida is the man in that clip Anthony Dream Johnson who says he wants to abolish feminism and make women great again and it also says with a trademark make women great again always great make women great again they're going to do a three day seminar for women led by all men in mansplaining news a three day conference for women led by men hopes to make women great again how the 22 convention will make you the greatest you ever raise your femininity by 500% first of all how is a man supposed to tell a woman how to be the ultimate woman a woman needs to be taught how to be great again not my words how to land a husband how to lose weight how to pump out a bunch of kids why do men think they need to fix the problems of women that says the world's ultimate event for women you know Orlando Florida that's going to be the scene of the crime it's mansplaining platoosa and say no to the toxic bullying feminist dogma taught by men to make women great again taking the stage now is the founder of the 22 convention you're in for a treat Mr Anthony Dream Johnson Anthony Dream Johnson Anthony Dream Johnson the first president of the Manosphere it's run by all men which promises to quote make women great again this course is guaranteed to raise your femininity by 500% together we will make women great again excuse me I'm mansplaining here she said there's nothing this is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the new 21 report and Pastor Michael Foster hey good to see you how have you enjoyed your second 21 convention it's been good it's interesting very it's very calm very smooth I mean it's always a smooth production but it's just more relaxed like deeper calmer discussions like I was talking with Tanner about Latter-day Saint eschatology which I didn't know eschatology doctrine of the end of things and and then talking to Cortez about all his deep thoughts that I didn't know I thought so because I'm on his email list and you know on Twitter he knows he knows the Twitter game but the email lists are like okay this guy's got some more depth to him so yeah Jeff Younger and I we're debating the different facets of eastern orthodoxy you know this is not what people think happen here they think you're like oh we're talking about just pickup artistry or whatever but no it's deep political, religious, significant conversations really hard topics that usually you can't have without I mean kind of in flames right not the case here it's been really good so it's been a good time I look forward to talking I've done a lot of sessions I've done a lot of panels and I'm happy to slide into home base with you so yeah fantastic well last year I think you gave one talk or did you have a couple talks I did two talks and a couple panels and then this year you did talks panels you know MC, Patriarch and Closer Opener have just been busy yeah I mean it's have you been excited what has been your response to the growth of the religious topic within a convention such as this very happy I mean first off it's easier to talk about religion if you don't have to like sneak it in right it's like just open everyone's thinking through the deeper implications of the situation we find ourselves in recognizing that it's not just about like your biology it's not just about chemicals but that there actually is a spiritual reality and you know I got people here that aren't Christians straight up telling me that yeah I recognize that Satan's real and there's demonic forces and I'm like this is very surprising like go on I want to hear more so yeah it's great and I've been able to just be very open very frank with where I'm at and I think I hope it's a model for other Christians that you don't have to become a softer gentler Christianity in like downplay what you believe to engage in conversations you can be friends with people you disagree you have to it's America it's like it or not it's a pluralistic society right now and you have to learn how to have these conversations with your neighbors it seems that what people want they want to say you should believe this and then like change happens a lot of times at least from our vantage point incrementally and you have to be able to enter into conversations that sometimes are tense and no one to back off and come back at it some other time you know it's about learning to be appropriate so I kind of hope I'm giving a model how to bring Christianity back to the public square without Geneseen its uniqueness and its difference but also being a voice among other voices and hopefully the most compelling voice I think Christianity is uniquely true I think there's things that I agree with with all the speakers here incredible amounts of commonality I think we all more or less agree on the enemy and it's funny like we agree that's like Marxism feminism but even with it's taken as spiritual like the evil one like the devil or some demonic forces it's funny to hear a lot of men saying that so at the very least most of these men here are what I would call cobald adherents their guns are pointed towards the same enemy right and maybe after we deal with that enemy we point guns towards each other you know I don't know but at the very least we're there and there's a lot of allies and the number of Christians here this go around and people considering Christianity very seriously it is stunning so I'm glad part of it's been good it's been an upgrade from my perspective since last year and a lot of different ways have men been coming up and engaging you in conversations and with a sincere willingness to learn like okay I'm ready to receive messages that I might not have been ready to receive before yeah they are well actually it's a little better than that it's I've been thinking about these things I've been weighing these things and now that you said this I think I want to take a step to check things out right and and that's good that's good I always say so here's this rule in church planning okay in church playing if someone comes to your church for the first time says this is the church I've been looking for all my life this is the most amazing church I just can't you're so good on this this and that you'll never see them again you'll never see them again because someone interested to commit it doesn't talk that way it's like you know what about this what do you think about this they're like checking you out they're feeling you know they want to make sure before they put a ring on it you know metaphorically speaking that they've done their due diligence and so rarely are people that are like crazy all in lead to anything of substance and people that are like more careful dipping their toes in the water those are the people that actually end up becoming kind of a vertebrae of your church right holding the whole thing together so it's good when I hear men say that's really good I want to think about that can you recommend books is there a church I should go check out that's encouraging to me because that shows that it's um it's coming from a place of meditation of consideration that's not just a mere emotion I talked to a lot of men who ask me questions about Christianity because I'm very public about my faith and a lot of men will say things like I you know I had bad experience with Christianity in my childhood I don't really know I don't really like it anymore what do you say and that seems to be almost the exclusive reason why people don't entertain Christianity that I've encountered unless they have some other faith for example but people who grew up mostly in America maybe in more or less Christian households will say almost always because of some bad experience in childhood they're just kind of closed off to the idea now what do you say to those men I say that my younger brother is very scared of dobermans and that's because a doberman pincher on two different occasions chased or bit him right okay so his fear of dobermans is very logical on two occasions he had this now Christians that grew up maybe in the church that was realistic or weird or aggressive towards masculinity you know in a sense they've been bit by a doberman over and over and over and over again you have to ask though is that the nature of the thing itself right and it's not and it's and so what I tell them like well tell me more about what you understand about scripture and about church history like are we limiting Christianity to the sample of your experience or are we looking at it from a much broader view right so have you actually read the Gospels does the Jesus of the Gospels sound like the Jesus of the church you grew up in well I don't know well you should go read it read it for yourself man I mean I can talk to you about it but I'd like you to go read Luke for yourself Jesus whipping people Jesus standing his ground Jesus telling people say hey I want to follow you Jesus I just got to bury my dad first let the dead bury the dead come out right does that sound like the Jesus and your church is probably not you look at the Jesus and Christianity throughout church history you'll see it wasn't aggressively against masculinity into the last couple centuries and even then it's gotten really intense in the last 80 years or so so that's what I would tell them start there just read like do do your own research do your own work man and then we'll see I don't care if they read that I want them to read it I don't want their faith to be in my interpretation of it or my personality when you start getting in social profile people will follow you and believe whatever you say I think that's natural because we have we were looking for a father to tell us what's right and so like you become that but I don't want people to depend on me I can't hold that burden the burden is on the word of God what does God's word say what does the Bible say I can't find a church that seems that fits that and I say well that's a problem but like one step at a time so let's start there and so I'm happy to be someone that has that voice that can try to help them find a church that is doctrinally orthodox and for the most part approximates what should be important grace, repentance, salvation through Jesus alone the Bible as the final authority not the only but the final highest authority that interprets all others if we can find that in the church frankly it doesn't hate men and doesn't raise women to pure angelic beings if we can do that they probably can grow and they'll do alright for a while so yeah man there's so many places I can go with that you know I'm curious church is hating men this is something that I hear from so many Christian men that I talk to as they go to church and they feel like they're put beneath their wives or they're denigrated and they're just not seen and sort of at the same time told to man up you know the common thing repeated in the house of God and then that's something you're working towards I wonder if you can speak to that working away from I suppose yeah it's sad it's sad it's a mixture of things behind that it's not just first off they don't know that they're doing it always okay they don't really get it the pastors like don't hate men they don't think they do they've been conditioned into one believing that women are somehow less sinful right but that even works its way out practically like they might not write that down on paper but like a great example is women cheat just like men cheat and I know a lot of church planners whose wives were unfaithful to them and and pastors quite a few actually and I could think of one in particular who was a good man and they've had a ton of kids and they'd been married for many many years at least over 20 okay and that she just kind of lost her mind and she went and was unfaithful to her husband and like so many men he wanted to work it out men don't like to restart right right they're very practical women have yeah women tend to have like a sort of divorce fantasy like I'll divorce this guy and then I'll find the true soulmate the better guy you pray love that's right men are much more practical also I mean the culture is conditioning that ends with women as well but I even with that guy people were like well it was something you did it was something you're you weren't you know you weren't the perfect husband and like who it is right like who's the perfect wife but it's always on the husband so I make a distinction between responsibility and blame it is the husband's responsibility if his wife cheats on it that doesn't mean he caused it but he has to make a decision and deal with it he's the head of the household that might mean he is within his rights through scripture to divorce her this is responsible to make the decision not hers right because he's the head of the household he didn't necessarily cause it and so you can see where they always think women are innocent like that they actually think there's something pure more childlike about women this is scripture right scripture uses adultery as it's as its main metaphor for idolatry and being faithful or unfaithful towards God and it's always God is like the husband and the unfaithful covenant people the Old Testament people the church is like a woman a mistress right a woman of the night and so the main metaphor for being unfaithful religiously in scripture is an unfaithful woman so how in the world so you hear things like this my favorite one is like if he had loved her like Jesus she wouldn't have done that alright now wait in Revelation chapter 2 and 3 Jesus gives seven different churches and he's speaking to them and he's calling the repentance and he says if you don't do this this and that I'm going to spew you out right I'm going to be done with you okay well wait a second why are those churches behaving bad if Jesus had loved them like Jesus wouldn't they all be good because the church is given as a metaphor Jesus is the crew and the church is the bride well it's because women have agency women are smart and they have abilities so it's kind of funny that it's like it's feminine it's like it's misogynistic like these pastors are acting like women are like little babies no they made that choice and so I think that you see that's coming into churches and men don't want to stay there and men will put up with quite a bit like very homoerotic feminine music they'll put up like when they go into the bathroom it's like they stumble into the woman's bathroom at pottery barn you know what I mean it's like you design these churches so it's not a very masculine environment they'll sit there preaching that can be very condescending towards men and the whole thing is just tried harder man up and there is a sense like if by man up we mean embrace your masculine nature for a holy purpose then it's good but it's usually just kind of barking it's kind of like a boomer barking like I did it you can do it and guys will put up with that for a time and then they're like I can't do this anymore and they're leaving the church it's not good it's not good at all we need men men give more so they give more to the church they actually serve more in practical sides of the church as deacons fixing things whatever they bring stability to a church when there's more men around the kids tend to be more well behaved they're the lifeblood of a church if you want to if you want to get women and children you go for the men the women and children will follow I love the women and children in my church that I minister to them but I do certainly put a special emphasis on the men because if my men are well taken care of then the women and children will be well taken care of it's not my responsibility to be every woman's emotional support that's her husband that's not my job I can't be every kid's dad I have my own family I'm there to feed that fire to encourage it and to equip men to do the work and so these churches are always talking down to men and shaming them and emasculating them and they're destroying they're destroying themselves it's like they're blowing up the very foundation underneath them which God builds on the foundation of men in churches you hosted a panel on men in religion who's younger who's orthodox Ken Curry who's Christian like you I think Jack is a pagan I don't know if he would describe himself with that but that's how would I associate and then who else was on the panel who's a member of the church of Jesus Christ how did that go? it was okay it went well no fist fights no no no they're all men and so I wanted to like have the conversation like you're at a bar and you meet these guys and you're figuring out where you're at and like you're enjoying like it's almost like a bunch of guys at a bar and you're watching the same game you like and you're all fans of that game or whatever and that's what brought you there in this case the game is how do we help men and then as we're drinking and watching this we start talking and finding our differences and getting each other a little bit but pulling back at the right amount instead to me it's like I want to maintain the distinctions between Tanner and I's understanding the trinity and all that sort of stuff but I didn't want to come out of a place of insecurity like I disagree with Tanner on this, this, this and that right we were able to like allow the allow those distinctions to kind of come out in the conversation but also show people like you can talk about hard things in a respectful way and then what I told people is like yeah Tanner's a ladder day saying I'm not going to marry a bunch of things would I want Tanner as my neighbor I would we'll argue over the fence and my neighbor who will be safer but Kaley's a sweet woman he clearly loves his family he's clearly involved in it and he straight up said he wouldn't want my sons to marry his daughters and that's awesome, I respect that except for religious reasons it is, you can ask him about that next time in the newer the even newer the even newest but I love that I love having Jack up there I love hearing a guy who's not a Christian try to process through these things spiritually that's where this whole last book was on and so the fact that it's opening up in the monastery as a conversation is a positive thing we just can't blur all distinctions but we also can model for people and mature a conversation that's how men should talk, we can disagree we can even get heated which we never did, it was way more laughing than anything we can get heated and walk away and come back and that's what we have to do people don't just convert like that usually I converted overnight but what happened is that there was a girl Margaret in my art class that was a great example and kept kind of low very subtly evangelizing me and then my biology teacher was going after me hard and he was a manly man and a man of science, a very thoughtful man and all that was kind of like almost like pre-evangelism it was prepping me so there was a lot of decisions that happened along the way a lot of conversations and then there was one night where I like was it an atheist and in the morning I wasn't I was a Christian so was it like momentarily or did it happen over time and so you just got to be willing to have a conversation and sometimes you get as far as you can and you're like well that's how far we can get and that's okay that's alright did you speak at 22 conventions here? I did what did you talk to the women about? I talked about hope I wanted them to know that even if they had been a whorish like a prostitute that there's still hope for them and after here they're most likely considering that and as they try to transition they're moving here's a few areas to work on and I talked about modesty both in clothing and in attitude and I like to use the analogy of volume or sound and so when you take a beautiful song and if you turn it down the way you can't hear it and if you turn it up all the way it doesn't sound good it hurts your ears it's not good so a woman's femininity it's weird for a woman to hide her breasts to be ashamed of it it's usually a sign of sexual abuse it's also not bad to turn it all the way up everything's hanging out so there's a spectrum there's a spot somewhere that modesty exists and you can't say oh it's got to be exactly at 11 out of like 30 it's a little harder than that there is a relative or subjective aspect to it but there is also objective things involved so I wanted to call them to that and then I said you know what though I see all these women in the trad world on squitter and stuff and they're wearing the dresses and they've got the long hair and all that but you see them manifest a very feministic brash attitude and so like you got the trapeze of womanhood that's good that's good but kind of rather you have short hair even blue hair and pants have a feminine attitude so scripture calls a woman to have a gentle and quiet spirit and not to be a loud woman loud there is again speaking of something that's not actual sound but a way of communicating she pushes herself on people she's tumultuous she's boisterous she's not comfortable with her rank and place and things and I rather than pursue that pursue both and I was telling them don't be Mrs. wrong because you know you can be very braggadocious as a woman and you can let everything hang out and you will attract the type of man it will not be a quality man quality man will know instinctually that that's danger and if they've been reading proverbs they'll know explicitly to avoid that woman to not go on her path so I wanted to say look you can rebuild from the rubbles I like the picture of when they reclaim wood like there's old houses and they take the wood and they build something beautiful out of it right so the house of your life collapsed we can build something new that's God brings beauty from ashes it's a great story where can men go to find out more about you what you do I know you have a book coming up I do can and press is publishing it's good to be a man 11 30 21 so whenever this is out probably it'll be out thank you I can't believe I got it done they said you should get your copy yet I don't know I'm in Orlando okay that's true so it's good to be man .com is our website and we started putting up our weekly emails there there's you go to notes you can read those we do we haven't really been right on blog for too lazy but there's emails that come out every Saturday and there's also podcasts that we've got about 75 episodes right and we throw them out there every once while you go to East River Church of Batavia on itunes or Stitcher or YouTube you listen to sermons or if you want that's the best way to find me great yeah thank you so much yeah thank you this is Will Spencer with the renaissance of men here for the not real it's not real it's all lie I want you guys to know it's all it's all fake but love for Jesus is real this is Will Spencer with the renaissance of men here with the new 21 report thanks so much