 My name is Penny Coochie. I'm the co-artistic director of on metogzy story makers. I'm from Nipissing First Nation and and my mom's from Tomogamy First Nation. My name is Sid Bob. I'm the other co-artist director of the husband-wife duo and and my mom's V-mericle from Slewa-tooth and my dad's Ray Bob from Seabird Stalo. It's in a Salish territory in the Vancouver area. I've been out here for the better half of my life in Ontario, Nishinabe country. Could you please describe the program that you run? We have a multi-layered programming. We have regular ongoing workshops with community community-engaged arts and we do often do multi-arts. So we cross visual arts and dance, theatre and music and we often cross intergenerational for intergenerational participants and and the art that we we engage with is often contemporary and customary and traditional arts as well. We have the on metogzy summer arts program, ASAP, it's going into its eleventh year and it started off as a three-week intensive training program for youth and it's then it grew into a six-week program and ran kind of under that schedule for a number of years and then last year we had a 12-week training program for youth. The age category started off as 8 to 12 in the first few years and then we shifted our focus to high school students in the last two years. We've focused mainly on high school, college and university students but in each year, it's always been open to any age categories and so we've sometimes had young children along with the older groups or older youth along with the younger groups. The second, I guess a conventional program that we ran for about two different years not consecutively was through the YTTP, the Youth Theater Training Program and that's through Theater Ontario and then we've also had through the Professional Theater Training Program, we've held some mentorship programs throughout the years for our professional artists. We've had capacity-building initiatives that have provided that mentorship opportunities, both administrative and artistic for our company and each company member picked their own and developed their own training program. I guess the other thing that we've supported is one of the artists applied for a Chalmers professional development funding and Sherry Guppy mentored under Eva Cucci, Penny's mother in traditional and customary arts, so birchbark work, textile work, a few other mediums and all of our company members co-tailed off of that Chalmers project and then in our community-engaged arts projects, dances of resistance and there are current one Serpent People we've had I guess a Indigenous knowledge transference as one of the goals, so through that we've had mentorship and workshop intensives and just kind of general art making as a medium for that knowledge transference, so we've had storytellers sharing circles, hide processing workshops, meet harvesting and kind of processing workshops, deer, goose, beaver, teepee making, tikka noggin, cradleboard workshops, ash basket workshops, moose and caribou tuffting so yeah, it's kind of a broad spectrum of like from conventional training to I guess more open or holistic knowledge transference And what would you say the aim of these programs are? I would say that it's to nurture and support a thriving artistic community that is committed to well-being and that there's a that we're helping to to support the transmission of cultural knowledge and teachings and to to bring forward a lot of the stories that haven't been told that that that really need to be told for the the health and well-being of our planet the some of the We have some written documentation that we can share but the summer arts program you know we focus on individual growth and knowledge gaining knowledge within a number of disciplines from theater to dance storytelling visual arts installation creation Historic or customary arts indigenous world view plant harvesting and knowledge other kind of land-based harvesting and I guess a hands-on practical working knowledge of those as well as the actual I guess more theoretical so we often do that in a sharing circle or Kind of oral practice the YTP was kind of it often a general general working knowledge hands-on working knowledge of theater and multi-arts and then I guess most most the community engaged arts is hands-on and through the actual practice of skinning and butchering and harvesting and some of those goals has been to increase the Cultural competency and of the community so that we would have more younger people knowing the the the the stories the teachings and the worldview as well as gaining experience as being practitioners of those customary and contemporary arts And what it in your opinion makes these programs an example of it excellence in indigenous education having access to a studio that's on a first nations that's solely owned and operated by You know by first nations by artists, you know that we have the time and space to really Figure our way through it and to really Not be confined by by any sort of agendas outside agendas So that when when we're investigating You know we could be in the middle of a dance class and then someone comes by and says, you know We we um, I just got this. I just got a deer will you come to help us harvest? It's like, okay, we can do that because we're not confined by Other things that we might be confined by in in an outside institution So I think that That having the capacity and the access to cultural knowledge keepers like right right within our immediate Area having access to land and land-based knowledge and sort of the the practical hands-on experience in in cultural Cultural teachings that are connected to traditional ecological knowledge and then going out on the land And then bringing that back into the studio and mixing it with contemporary artistic expression all of those things I think leads to the leads to Artistic excellence and and excellence in the education and and the way that and the methodology That we're exploring The other one of the in terms of excellence we Founded our own company. So we have an indigenous board. We're a not-for-profit organization and We often get our funding through the public sector through arts councils and foundations We have an indigenous artist led company So we can operate outside of the the limitations Or policy of of a first nation So we operate independently. We've often partnered with the local first nation on the summer arts program and the yttp But we are independent and That gives us a lot of great opportunities so that The community has a more diverse It has a really diverse the nipissing first nation is a good example of having a diverse body of educational Forums and we often Also engage with the local college and university nipissing University and canada college But because we're on a first nation, we don't have the municipal bylaws to contend with and we also don't have the the policy limitations of a College and university and so we found that That they're working towards having cultural based practices and worldview in action But they have a lot of hurdles to overcome and so we've hosted sweat lodge ceremonies indigenous cookouts and other land based activities So I guess in that way we're we're similar to a field school and other other kind of in you know institutions that operate outside of the college and university systems outside of First nations and we've also partnered in the same way with the friendship centers And but because they're urban based they they often face the municipal bylaws So we can have We often have we have our teepees up that we've made during our programming and those those teepees Don't have to be made by a certified company that When you're in a municipality and you put up a structure it often has to be built by a certified company and so In that way we would love to be certified but we but we don't but we're not confined or stopped or inhibited by that We're also a a company that's Rooted in like it's our artists led and it's also We have a diverse indigenous kind of first nation artist roster. So I'm Salish pennies nishinaabe So we try and create a space that That is inclusive of all those practices. And so we're not just Nishinaabe focused. We're not just Salish focused We we try and create curriculum and programming that's inclusive Of the first nations in the area, but also indigenous people from other communities and I think that has In that way we we we often try and adopt like a rights-based a rights-based programming so that different Spiritual and cultural practices are free to operate in our space, but they can't inhibit Or exclude any other rights based And so I think that also having a contemporary focus is also sometimes a benefit. So aren't confined by Just a historical based view that we that were that we acknowledge that we're that we're that we are contemporary And a culture is contemporary and shifting and changing So that's just some of the highlights that I think that you know that we're indigenous led sovereignty focused and you know, we root ourselves in our past, but you know with the eye that we're moving into the future How do you measure the success of your your programming? We were just talking about this the other day in some ways It's whether or not the people come like and Like I remember when we first started out We were inviting elders in to come and uh, this was before we even had a studio We were inviting elders to come into our home and we were doing luncheons And uh, and so we would we would make them lunch and then we would sit around and and and do some story sharing and then we would um, we would show them some videos of the work that we were doing and the the kind of and talk to them about the kind of things that we were interested in and so sometimes The elders like they would go away for a long time and come back, you know even like say four months later And um, and then knock on the door and say You know, can I come in for a tea? I want to talk to you about what you were what you were talking about You know and and how how we can participate in that So I think that it's when the community starts coming and and participating regardless if there's You know if whether regardless if they've been, you know contacted, you know, the they they just come they decide that this is a You know, this is a good place to come and make art with us and to to come and um to bring their other family members to there was there there's this um One woman that we work with and she said that she that she'd first brought her first daughter Uh to us for our summer arts program and that was in one of our very early summer arts programs maybe um, it might have been like seven years ago and um since then Has had almost every single one of her children come through our program And she says that that's her goal is to have all five of her kids come through our program our summer arts program and so um and and she herself has also participated in a number of our productions and Our workshops she comes regularly to the uh, wednesday night dance classes I think that uh, yeah, like having that endorsement from the community. That's really really important and perhaps more important than um Statistics or you know, because that's not always a Not always necessarily a really reliable way of um of measuring that success But yeah, if you if you don't have the support of the community then Then I think it's time to look to go back to the community and go. Okay, you know, where do our wants and needs intersect with their wants and needs and uh And then how we how can we move forward together? we one of our We have about um five co-founding artist members one is um Well, penny and kuchi and I are are two Carol guppy, uh, who's uh an elder and a knowledge keeper in the community pennies pennies and She's also a co-founding member perry mcleod. Sheba gizek He's a storyteller and knowledge keeper and works in the health and wellness nishnabi health and wellness field Chicago quay out of sunbury. He's one of the founding members and so I guess we had the worth of four original and Carol um We often consult with carol. So she not only does she Is she like a multidisciplinary artist herself performing in some of the uh the plays but also running the sharing circles new cultural teachings But we often consult with uh with carol. So she's one of the kind of barometers for How well we're doing or what we're missing. So we always have evaluations with her and she's a part of the curriculum planning and monitoring of the summer arts program And then uh perry is also um less so because he's quite busy and travels To sunbury for work for full-time work But he's another another person that we often consult with and also supports the artists that work with our company the instructors we've uh collaborated with counselors and healers to provide counseling and uh run sharing circles for the artists but also for the participants of the summer arts program And uh, we often consult with them on how they perceive The effectiveness of our programming and our art making We do evaluations with the participants trying to capture the The challenges successes and failures of the program And often we get a lot of great responses in terms of being highlights sometimes for for people's Highlights for their lives, but also just highlights, uh In in education or learning So we do fairly well. We don't often have the resources to track those and convert them into statistics as much as I'd like The I guess the other we consult with knowledge keepers in the community To provide critical feedback on the programs that we're running They don't always agree with our programming on every instance Sometimes because we come from different, you know cultural and spiritual practices, but we do I think we are in good standing with the key cultural knowledge keepers. They're Comfortable using our facilities from our sweat lodges to our studio And we often do take the time to really Create open dialogue about any Outstanding grievances and and work work those through so I I think we have a long-term commitment To our programming our company and our activities and we want to work in partnership with like-minded people and so education Healing and growth kind of on a holistic thing. We we do try and keep an open open dialogue with all the Stakeholders like the college and the universities and the pissing And so I think we've worked pretty well With all those stakeholders like the participants and and other I guess institutions Given everything that you both have shared from your perspectives. What is indigenous education? What does that consist of? I think indigenous education For me is a a balance between traditional ecological knowledge that's transmitted through story through the practical hands-on education like on on the land and it passes on knowledge that's been Passed down through generations. It's community-based like intergenerational it's often family Family-based learning it's for the benefit of everyone. It's it's for the benefit of everyone and and all of creation So, uh, so it's towards that Towards that end You know, one of the things that they talk about is is yeah that it's towards a good life, you know Like that's what that's the the aim of it So when we're doing when we're doing Uh workshops and and classes in the studio That's something that we're always keeping in mind is is how can we provide education training and and and workshops within an indigenous worldview One of the recent things that we're operating under is this idea of like an inter arts company and I think a lot of um indigenous organizations are are Looking at that model as as a like an arts-based company That operates as a hub between different sectors and so, you know, you know, we're connecting operating between educational institutions community-based organizations like friendship centers both like First Nations, um governance under the Indian Act on reserves, but also I imagine also like historic or hereditary governance systems like the, you know, the Haudenosaunee, the Longhouse So I the inter arts in that way operates between all these and between families and and between, you know, the general public So I've often looked at how, you know, yeah, how can we You know as a arts organization that's committed to lifelong learning and development and also like having the goal of gathering as much knowledge as we can to fulfill the voids that are there. So, you know, we've often looked at the colonial impacts Of our community, you know, like locally, regionally and nationally and what can we do to help address those areas that need, you know reinvigoration Or how can we support the continuity of what's existing? and then What might we need to create? in the new context of having like institutions and, you know, a different type of economic system But but in that way, I guess, you know, indigenous knowledge is As you know, it's very broad and holistic and that it can take place in all these different spheres and, you know, from the family to the self to, you know, the creative mind and we've often looked at in the last few years looking looking at historic stories as a as an anchor for how to look at indigenous knowledge and transformation How would you define the the word indigenous and is this a term that you would normally use? I uh, I guess a yes and no, like I often operate from a as a stallow or Sometimes I operate out of out of a first nation But I often try and expand beyond that Knowing that that's like a Often it's often not always, but it's not solely but in my case seabird island is That's that's an indian act Direct name slavewood tooth is not that name goes beyond the indian act, but it's still primarily anchored on a reservation system I do use indigenous, but I'm also comfortable using aboriginal and even indian when it's Talking more about the indian act or or just even kind of the community identification of Being indian. Yeah, I mean I Like I think I'm okay with using in the word and indigenous. Well, it's important to me to Be specific about where I come from like, you know my and when I'm talking about my community I'm talking about my my family, especially if I'm talking about teachings or knowledge where knowledge comes from where you know specific when When it relates to specific dialects of language or or that kind of thing or or or to really be Specific about where a story comes from but I think it's important when to frame sort of When we're talking about You know first peoples, you know, then that then I think that a term like indigenous is important because just to to to understand sort of what we're hopefully all Working towards together, you know, which is I hope is the protection of the land And and water What would you say your vision is For indigenous education and for your your programming for the next 10 years I would like to have more capacity to to bring more cultural knowledge keepers and Teachers and just teachers in general. I'd like to have more capacity to bring more teachers And and students together so that that we have more capacity to do intensives where we go Where we part of our time is is in the studio Part of it's on the land part of it is within the community and that there's this Fluid movement between all of those places and I'm looking forward to to continue investigating the connections between old stories and contemporary stories and traditional and customary arts and contemporary arts and You know just like You know as just as a as a as an individual who's you know, my parents are both traditional artists and And my my work has been primarily contemporary arts and In the contemporary arts field and so I just for myself I'd like to understand the connection and the intersections between those two worlds and Yeah, and I'd love to I'd love to You know Create more More artwork that that brings forward Old stories and makes it more available to more First nations people so that they can and and non non native people as well Because I think that there's just so many There's so much knowledge and teachings that haven't had the haven't had the opportunity to be heard by people the larger world one of the one of the things that that Is one of my goals and I think also part of the company's goals is to Is to struggle for self-determination And to support the broader struggle for self-determination So we're aware that there's a continuing trend of the federal government To not fully support financially But also They inhibit the sharing of the resources from Turtle island they control the resources So that we don't have access to the resources that we have rights to as indigenous people um, so You know that we're aware that the goal of many communities and nations Is that they have their rights recognized And that they can determine And govern their own access to the resources and not have the government act as a middleman Our middle person and so we want to operate with full knowledge of you know the historical Framework that we're existing within and then be a part of the knowledge gathering and dissemination of what our rights are Kind of related to the united nations draft No declaration on the rights of indigenous people So there's a lot of knowledge gathering that we want to get for ourselves so that we are Aware of our rights and that we can be a part of that dialogue of developing our own rights and visioning our own rights And I think that the arts has a really powerful role to play in that Because I think the arts is historically one of the really powerful tools of knowledge transference like the You know the the ceremonies the songs the stories The the creation stories the role that art plays in in healing ceremonies and major learning points like the naming ceremonies the clan teachings there's Just a lot of the indigenous knowledge that's um embedded in a in an artistic kind of process So, you know, we are always looking at how can we be most effective given the resources that we have and I think to that end we also You want to be a part of that moving towards being self-determined so our You know having an indigenous led arts organization can be a part of that broader movement and in like our in that I guess you know the Historic stories or the classical works we want to make sure that that we push those forward So that you know, eventually Canada would have More representation of our classical works because we're aware that we have a lot of you know Shakespeare festivals and Shakespearean focused companies That look at kind of colonial settler classical works, but we don't have a lot of indigenous organized arts organizations that focus on our own classical works and so that's that's you know, one of the goals that we have is to is to bring awareness to that inequity and and help Push the country more towards having our own seat at the table our own self-determined seat at the table for education and self-governance and lastly what information or materials or resources um aside from funding of course that Would be necessary to achieve this vision I think I think we need access to storytellers and and elders and cultural knowledge keepers and You know sometimes when we're when we're exploring a story We're one of the questions that we're asking is what meaning is within this story or what teachings or what? traditional ecological knowledge is within this is embedded within this story So so sometimes that's bringing people in and saying what do you hear? I mean all the time that's that is what we do is we we bring people of all ages people of all abilities we bring in People who have specific knowledge about medicines or about traditional foods or about um They have they have specific plant-based knowledge or knowledge of trees or knowledge of of uh Animals or or knowledge of other old other old stories that connect to that story so You know bringing bringing in in people who have Who have an understanding that they can song? To us to other people in the community who come to the workshops You know so that we can when we're creating those those stories that they're um All of that knowledge is is embedded within the stories that we're creating Some of the things that I think are like around Education that we've that I've have been expressed is From the north bay community some of the young people have expressed wanting to learn more accurate meaningful history about kind of colonial relations and also just other More accurate self-determined education around, you know, indigenous worldview, nishinaabe worldview And that's also something that you know that um We would well one of some of the things that I could I hope to see in the future or see disseminated more is like The the colonial education so being aware of you know what the internet is You know, what does it mean while it exists? What does it mean when it's taken away? Bill c31 and the two generation clause like the undripped and So there's a lot of meaningful education that would be great for all Canadians as you know as kind of all you know We are all treaty people But the other thing that is exciting that Some some communities are developing as like their own constitutions based on their own kind of historical frameworks So like nipissing first nations developing the chinak nagewin in my Has some family from the okanagan and the okanagan nation is looking at How do they envision their own self self-governance? separate from the indian act and whether Whether it's actually brought into a meaningful existence may not happen, but it would be nice to see Those documents as they're envisioned and self-determined So that those are If a few of the things that would be good to see in the in the near future the other thing that we struggled with is How do we create accessible? Spaces so we work with a lot of elders that we co-producing a play with An indigenous group from the u.s. And one of the cast members is 91 years old So how do we how do we make sure that you know that that we're accessible to all those different abilities and ages? And I think that's that's really important for for the whole intergenerational connection How do we build our capacity so that that we can be you know like safe While we're doing You know things like maple syrup harvesting and so so we you know we have a number of certification things that we're looking for on our end, but also I know that there's a lot of land-based indigenous knowledge-based safety courses like you know safe safety in winter activities safe hunting so Indipicing first nations been pretty proactive about that and we'd like to see More of that because we operate in both worlds Okay, perfect to me which for your time