 your money at your call. I have a question about fixed interest ETFs. What happens to bond ETFs as interest rates rise? For example, bank card fixed income ETF, V-A-F and V-G-B as your government bonds and corporate bonds. Will the price of the ETF go down to balance the rise in interest rates to make the investment more appealing? Will it remain unchanged? How did the dynamics work for a fixed interest ETF? Is it worth investing in a bond ETF now or should I be waiting until interest rates go up? How would you approach that market? Yeah, look, it's a really good question. So I didn't know the performance of the Vanguard funds that he was talking about. And you look at the performance of those funds and V-G-B for the last three months. This is before fees. It was down 3.3%. On that, in respect to Vanguard, and I know no one at Vanguard, their fees are so minuscule. Yeah, their fees are usually around about 20 basis points and 25, and then there's other additional costs as well. So I think it's around about 30 basis points. So you can see how much, 3.1%. 3.3% in the last three months. And the corporate bond funds, which has obviously got a bit bigger yield to carry the fall, so that's down 1.4% in the last three months. So that answers Nick's question. Do they fall in a higher rate environment? Absolutely. So you've seen that in terms of the declines there, in terms of their performance. So James, as rates go higher, you lose money. That's a given. So that's what happens in the bond market. That's why people panic about the bond market. And to be fair and look over that over a longer period of time, the government bond funds 12-month return is around about 2.5%. But the running yield, also the yield to maturity is only around about 2.4%. So that to me sounds incredibly low for a bond fund. When you've got 10-year government bond, obviously probably maybe higher duration, 2.7%, 2.8%, 10-year Aussie government bond. So that'll have a lot of short dated duration in there, and that's why you're getting very poor outcomes. Exactly. So we talked about this before, the show in terms of passive investments and our ETS, very useful for bond funds, and in a more illiquid market, and where there's kind of a few more idiosyncrasies in terms of pricing and those opportunities. I think it's worthwhile paying for an active fund manager to spot those, especially on the corporate credit side, because I think there's some pricing anomalies, which typically these bond funds won't do, because they'll try and match the index at their benchmark. And they do a pretty good job of benchmarking against the index as well. So are these the domain, ETS, everyone loves them, it's obviously Vanguard have done an incredibly good job. Are they the domain more of larger investors in this part of the world in terms of those instruments? And should people who are looking at this look at whether it be securities on the hybrid market, whether it be sub-debt on the hybrid, but listed sub-debt, whether it be what you guys offer? Is that the way you think about it in terms of getting conservative outcomes, better outcomes for conservative buckets? Is that how you look at it? Yeah, I mean, I guess thinking about the MIPS portfolio that we run, we've got a lot more floating rates short-dated, but obviously higher yielding, higher risk corporate bonds in there rather than government bonds. And government bonds have been hit because we've seen a fairly significant jump in the yield curve in the across the spectrum from two years to 20 or 30 years. But it's important to mention for the viewers here that the government bond curve is a fixed rate curve. Correct. So that's why it's hurt. So in other words, what Mark's talking about is a floating rate curve isn't affected by the, as the rates go up, you make more money. Your cash flow is higher. So people are actually going to buy the floaters because they're saying I'm getting a better outcome on the higher rates. That's right, yeah. So when you're buying a floating rate, that's on a margin of plus 200, 300 basis points over either SWAPs or BBSW and bank bills swap rates. And as that rises in terms of a rising interest rate environment and as the yield curve prices in potential future increases in central bank rates, that rate goes up and you get a higher coupon when it does reset. Happy days. Make sense? Completely. It's hard to work out why you'd buy an ETF. I can see that you'd buy something that you can't access. I think that's where the ETF plays. If you wanted to buy emerging market fixed income or global, buy those. Yeah, if it's an asset class market, a diversified portfolio, I can see why people would go for it. So James, if you're thinking about waiting, we'll talk a little bit after the next ad break about where interest rates are in the Trump rally. But if you're trying to get into fixed income, there are an array of ways you can get into it. You can get listed stuff, you can find brokers, you can call these guys, you can call the nab. There's an array of different ways to do it. We've got a couple of minutes and I just want to get your sense of how does the market feel? You've both spoken about rallies, you've spoken about issues. I keep looking to the VIX as a precursor to volatility. There's none. How does it feel for the rest of the year? Do you feel that there's a level of comfort about the market or you're distrustful of the market? Well, in my part of the market, I'm a little bit more relaxed, I think, than the guys that buy or sell senior bonds. Those guys need to mark the market every day. But consequently, I noticed you used the word complacent when you were sending me the notes earlier. Yeah, it feels like it's complacent. Well, I guess the question is, what does it have to be, what would cause it not to be complacent? That's good. Yeah, you've got Trump and you've got Brexit or enacting Brexit through Rule 50 or whatever it is. I think that's fine. But when you think about Trump, he's just doing what he said he'd do, which is America for Americans and I'm going to start doing things for America first. One minute. The market complacency, is it a basis of some concern for you, the fact that the market, equity markets or markets seem to be going in one direction never saying this is going to rally on? How does that feel to you? Yeah, I think it is. I think the market is complacent and interestingly Moody's chief economist has read an article in this week's Moody's credit outlook saying VIX is low, overvaluation risk is not. So essentially he's saying equities are looking a bit toppy. We've had the rally is a fundamental to justify it, probably not. So there's volatility around the corner in my view. We'll go to a quick break. Leigh is talking to me about a wrap-in. It's wrapped. Talk to you soon.