 Terrorists are running a parallel government in Kaduna, El Rufi cries out and Wike denies suing Atiku and hits PDP governors. This is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anacol. The Kaduna State Governor Malam Nasser El Rufi alarmed on activities of terrorists now running a parallel government in the state and that has been described as belated and an unfortunate admission. This is as the people of the southern Kaduna area revealed that the area has now become ungovernable in the state and it's about the size of Abya state. Now the development has now elicited fears among Nigerian leaders, Norsan leaders, elders and other stakeholders who warned President Bahari of the threat to the sovereignty of the nation by bandits if any immediate end is not brought to the security challenges in Kaduna. Well joining us to break this down is Reverend Joseph Hayab. He's the Kahn Chairman in Kaduna State and we're also being joined by Roy, Ambassador Roy Ahideve. He's a security expert and consultant. Thank you so much gentlemen for joining us. Thank you for having us. Great. I'm going to start with you Reverend Hayab because you and I have been on this program over and over and over talking about the issues of insecurity that the people in Kaduna State have faced. Now from the reports that we've gotten we know that these guys had established authority according to reports since 2019. Let's fast forward that to 2022 and now they're governing spaces that's as big as Abya State. I'll ask the simplest of questions. Why did we wait for this expansion process to take action? Why are we now all of a sudden crying foul? We waited because those who raised the alarm some years ago were attacked to the enemies of government. I speaking to you have said this over a year ago that we have two governments in Kaduna State. The government of National Air Force, under the government of the Bandit or the terrorist. In fact the point is that I did say that the Kaduna people are afraid of the terrorist government than they are afraid of the government of Air Force because the terrorist government comes with force, they force you into doing what you don't want to do. They can heal, they can mend, they can cause damage. Unfortunately the government of Air Force was more of a propaganda saying what was not true. At that time the accusation was we were just not capable of in love with government. So we're against government. We don't want government. But we are hoping now that the man himself is admitting he is saying that yes, what these people said far back when I was denying is true. But how honest is this admission? And how honest is the hope? It's something that we wait to see. But this has been for a long time. We saw it, we cry out about it, we complain about it, we speak out about it, we shout on the top of our voice about it. Sadly his ears and those with him were closed. They didn't listen to us. We didn't know what we had said. With high security people in Paduna and outside of Paduna. And I always tell them the truth of what we know because what we know is what we could tell security. Security is not just the business of those who are recruited as police or SSS or school army. It is everybody's business. So our job as stakeholders is to know what is happening and to raise concern. We are not saying it because we hate government, neither are we saying it because we are against an individual who are simply saying that our home is in danger. And we need to have, we need to do something about it. Sadly we allow them to have grown big, to have grown out in the day. To unite themselves and now we are crying. I don't know how it's going to be. But it's good that we have come to reality. Let's see how we go way forward. Ambassador Roy, you are a security experts. Now I also have spoken to you on issues of insecurity in Kaduna state. I remember the last time we spoke you talked about the lack of will power and collaboration between security agencies and the government of Kaduna state. Now that Governor El Rufai is crying out loud and saying that the state is being overrun by this terrorist. Has the strategy changed? Has his body language changed? Does it seem more likely that he is open to finally fighting these men off? Or is this more like a drowning man screaming for help? Ambassador Roy, can you hear me? I don't think you can hear me. So I will throw that question back to you, Reverend Hayab. We have said this before that our governor is a man who always wants to show he knows of. So when he sits with security experts to discuss before they say one sentence he has said two paragraphs. So sometimes some of them they don't want to have issues with him. They allow it to flow and nothing happens. So this is where we are. You are the leader, you are the listing. Even if you know you must allow the other view to come to the table. Because until you have the different views you will not even understand and strategize no other way. Our governor seems to prefer only his voice must be heard, only his voice should be known, only his views should be taken. Luckily, the bandits know his voice, they know his view, and they understand his view cannot make any difference. So this is the situation in Kaguna City. That's why if you look at the history of Kaguna State in the past four years so many security teams have actually been removed. Those who really feel that they want to say no to some of his view, you will just find a group of many children that they are out. That's why I don't subscribe when he says that you are not in charge of security. But you run to Abu Dhabi every day to talk or to get the other person who disagrees with you to be removed. So if you are not in charge, then listen to the people who are advising. Because when you meet with security canceling, listen to them. There was a time he called the religious leaders all together to a meeting. And one of our beat-up just wanted to blow his hand to the thing happening around. And he just walked on him. He just walked the man in that public country and made no sense of the man. So you see, if any other person have another information he wants to give he's not going to speak because he knows that his reaction from the governor will not be favorable. It is always people who don't know only who the party knows. And that's why we are in the tribe. Okay. Kaguna Khan has been quoted to say that the government has been defending terrorists. That's a very weighty statement when in the midst of a situation as severe as bandits or terrorists overrunning your state saying that the government has been defending them. What exactly did you mean by that? I mean, it does have consequences. Well, there are many reasons why we said that. Number one, when we started crying for because our people are being killed, at that time they were not called terrorists or non-godmen or hired killers. The governor came out in a public television and said that look, he actually followed them even to some of the neighboring countries and gave them money. I remember he was speaking to the interview that they were saying that look, giving them money was the best option. If people have another option they should give, let them tell him when he believes that giving them money will stop the killing. Sadly, giving them money and them to get more with them. Today, they are out running the country or the state. Not only with that. As many times as the people have come out to cry out, I remember when the killings were going on in Brindambari and the stakeholders in Brindambari cry out, he called them enemies of the state, he called them the people who have been paid and sponsored by PDP because any time you tell the governor that things are not going well in your community you are now on a PDP percent. I know personally as a vampire he has served on the many national issues to say that I have been sponsored by PDP. I can't even imagine how I will be sponsored when my people are being killed. I am talking about the lives of citizens of the governor state, the lives of the people I represent. He is attacking me with a political party just because he wants to rubbish any sensible complaint. If he is not speaking for the bandit, why is he attacking people who are raising consign about issues? We need to believe that security is the job of everybody. We see things and we need to say it to security agencies. There was a time when one of the commissioners was asked by him, when he asked the commissioner to invite me over I don't know the right translation he gathered all the other security team and he was shouting on us as he was speaking to his babies. I listened to him and after saying everything I gave him details of everything that I know. I remember that his public relations said, my commissioner it is important we listen to these people because they are nearer than we do and they know about the connected more than crime we know. There are crimes they know about that we don't know. If we fail to listen to them then we will be making mistakes. How can you as a governor do like that and then I don't call you speaking for the bandit. Remember just a night to relation in 2019 when they were still in Encaju the governor who was supposed to protect his citizens, who was supposed to speak to him, came out and was even killing a particular group, a particular tribe, a particular religion of killing others and even gave a number that the commissioner of police later refuted and said he is not aware of the number. If he is not speaking for the bandit or the terrorist, why will he be saying that? So he was he has been covered enough by dividing and ruling by correcting unnecessary tension among us. Unfortunately for him, we have to find a way of relation with the two at least for them to know that the killing is about humanity is not about tribe. The killing is about people is not about religion. So we must work together to stop it and that's why we feel he has been defending the bandit. He's supposed to come out and tell the bandit that if anybody in my state is killed, I will come after you. But when you start blaming other people, either a tribe or a religion or any form of identity then you are actually protecting the bandit identity. Wait a minute. We thought these people would be coming after us for us to learn, but he is really fighting those who are telling him that we exist. So what is his job? A new PR? I'm curious as to why your insistent that he is babying these bandits. I mean, we also the BBC documentary which raised an opera that is saying that at the core of these killings is an ethnic war of sorts and this can be dated back to as old as old can be. But in the interim what is can doing as collaborative efforts with security agencies civil society? Because again you may mention of something that I wanted to query earlier on that the governor is a no-it-all governor in your words and if that no-it-all according to you does not necessarily work or is not working what are you the other concerned people in Kaduna State doing to put an end to this? Yes, there are a lot of people in Kaduna State are worried about the affidavits efforts are being made from different sources to see that this insecurity is addressed but you see there is a limit to what the NGOs will do. More time we at the NGO or those of us who get involved with NGOs are talking to the community we are talking to the victims we don't have what it takes to go after the terrorists so you see what we thought would have happened is that when we are calling the community to unite when we are calling the community not to give space for the party for terrorists to oppress then the government will go after the terrorists and the terrorists will be adorned unfortunately when you are speaking to the government and drawing the attention to the things happening around the government is not going after the terrorists is busy trying to interpret what you mean and who you belong or what you belong it's simple truth is our governor is good at just in every reasonable conversation to make it look as it does not exist he was the same person who felt that these people supposed to be protected sadly when they started coming after him coming after the military and government institution then he said that they should be bombed and some of us ask this question when we call on you when they started they had not grown big they were not they have not established the way they are now if the government of the security agencies have gone after them that time they wouldn't have had the strength to be terrorizing the state the way they are doing but sadly that time he was engaging all of us in war of wars and the terrorists were like they keep talking now that they have threatened that they are going to kidnap him I said that I believe that that is the wake of call I was making all these news stories they are hearing because now it is no longer about the common man it is no longer about those people it is about him that shouldn't be, leadership is about the people let's talk about the inflammatory statement in very sensitive ones that have been making headlines of course the governor I think this morning put out a tweet in response to a one million man march in Kaduna state and he cuffed at the people saying that I think he was saying can they even open their shops on Monday and he can bet that they would not be up to a thousand on that march again like you I said earlier on, Khan had been quoted to say that the government was defending terrorists let's look at peace strategies peaceful strategies now if these sensitive statements continue to make headlines and these kinds of words are being used are we not fueling the crisis as opposed to dousing the tension I'm happy that you notice that but because he is speaking about a political party and a political candidate I think as Khan, I don't need to talk about that if the party feels that what he said he did make reference loosely I'm sorry Revan Hayab, I'm so sorry he did make reference loosely I'm sorry, can you hear me Revan Hayab he made reference I'd like to correct something he did make reference loosely to a particular tribe and I do not want to use the same word that he used but he did speak about a particular tribe and those people are mostly known as traders in Kaduna state attaching them to the party this is why I was asking that question can you hear me Revan? I understand what you mean and I'm just simply saying that because it's enough for Christians I speak for Christian threat if he speaks about Christians I would give him the appropriate response that's why I've listened to him the red words he said I hope they will react and respond accordingly but this is also to confirm to you our governor lacks courtesy when it comes to speech our governor speaks and do not care whether he speaks with fear of religion he does say what he wants to say if you say similar words like him then he will call the police when security to come after you about a month ago I don't say that because now it's no longer safe when full priest where I came up and one of them was still I started getting some evictions from security as if I've said anything that is new Kaduna is not saying people are hiding in every day people cannot travel freely so these addictions we are calling on government to do what is right because one of the constitutional the most important constitutional responsibility of government is to secure lives and propagates once you do that you don't need to do anything with me I will live my life I will so good survive but once there is insecurity how can I go to my farm how can my children go to school to address responsibility when there is security bridge Finally Reverend before I let you go Can we say that the federal government has failed the Nigerian people especially the Kaduna State people and even other state around your region in terms of fighting corruption I'm asking this question because the Bahá'í administration came into power and the heels on the wings of fighting corruption fighting Boko Haraman putting an end to unemployment but let's stay with Boko Haram situation and of course terrorism. Can we say that in the almost eight years of President Buhari that any justice has been done in terms of fighting terrorism? The fact about it is that if there is any grip that is lower than F9, I would give it to them because they have done poorly in that regard. Every day what this government specializes in doing is rhetoric without concrete action. Earlier today we sent to the National Security Advisor a usual story. You are telling us that we have we need to work together. We have offered to have, we have offered to collaborate, we have offered to see that this country is secure but you will not accept any other help from anywhere. But you go to the television and tell people that security is everybody's business. Well in reality you are not willing to help everybody. Look I do say this that instead of calling some young men who don't even know what it means to secure themselves and call them civilian JTF, we have a lot of military, retired military men in Nigeria. And this government honestly ingates them and adds them we can, can you help us? He put them on some kind of insurance, paid them good allowance and adds them to go. They know what it takes to go to the bush. Some of them fought in the war. They have experience of guerrilla warfare. They have so many experience that it can bring to bear to secure this country. When nobody is engaging them you hear millions of men are being spent every day for security and people are still dying. So this government knows that she has done poorly, terribly poor when it comes to securing Nigerians. And Nigerians are really, really, really living in India in this past, especially in the last four years. Well Reverend Joseph Hayab is the Khan Chairman for Kaduna State. We want to thank you so much for speaking with us. Apologies we lost Roy Ahidyeve while we were having that conversation. Thank you once again Reverend. Thank you. All right. Well, it's good to have you stay with us. We'll take a quick break when we return. We'll be discussing the Atiku weekend reconciliation moves. And of course recently Governor Wike has denied suing Atiku and the PDP. We'll be right back after this break.