 Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020. And Anwartha and I are delighted today to have with us Dr. Varuna Srinivasan. Varuna is a huge entity on Instagram, which is a very, very dear personal friend, of course. But aside from that, she is an award-winning sex health expert writer and advocate and is going to be with us today answering a lot of questions that both Anwartha and I have been getting on bisexuality. Varuna, welcome. Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm so excited. I think Anwartha and I just realized after the last one that we did that there are so many questions that we felt that we just needed an expert to respond to for us because sometimes we miss out on or we can't put it across maybe as a simply, you know, with specific things. Yes, or sometimes they just don't believe us and they need like somebody else to come and say, this is the truth and so hopefully they'll believe you if they don't believe us. I also want to say that the podcast is called from the Kamasutra to 2020, even though we are in 2023, because we hold to the belief that nothing in the world of sex and sexuality has truly changed since, you know, 5,000 years ago actually. So it doesn't matter. The dates don't matter. So I'm going to actually start with the most often received question, which is, I don't understand what is bisexual? That is, yes. I also get that question a lot from someone who talks a lot about my own bisexuality, I think in a nutshell I can explain, and I prefer the term bisexual or bisexuality plus is bisexuality is an umbrella term, as most people do not know and it is LGBT and LGBT, many people seem to forget that, but it is sexual attraction and that is, you know, underscoring the words sexual attraction to two or more genders right and so under the term or the label bisexuality plus you have other identities and labels such as being bisexual, bisexual, fluid, queer or questioning. And I think as we move forward into of course the now 2023, it is evolving and I think sexuality is evolving with it. And so that's bisexuality in a nutshell. Actually, I'm glad you said this thing about bisexuality plus and brought in the idea that it's several. It can be two or more gender sexualities, etc. And that it's also fluid, because that's the one thing that you want to take over from here about how we got so much about trying to explain how normal it was. Yeah, I think as in, we would love for you to speak on because I think it's a very complex idea this thing about being fluid, you know, and and that your identity can be shifting or fluid or you know it can change because I think most people believe in the idea that and and this is true within the LGBTQ community as well that once you have chosen to be gay, you can't suddenly like it can't change but you know more and more people are now talking about their identities being fluid and obviously it becomes somewhat confusing. It's a longer journey, maybe sometimes to say, Okay, I am sexually attracted to multiple genders, but I might be committed in one gender and then what is my identity. So, you know how do you speak to that and what is your experience be. There are several things there and what you just said but I think I will focus on the first part which is on. We always seem to think in terms of the binary right like we live in a society so hell bent on living within this idea that chaos straight right man or woman, male female right, and there are always just two extremes, and the idea that sexuality is a spectrum and I don't like to think of it as a linear scale almost and no one is like measuring and that isn't a criteria or a point system where if you fill out a quiz or a poem or a questionnaire that you'll get so many points and that determines who you are and that is what you are on that scale. And it's not so much black and white and so I like to think of sexuality and the spectrum is being a circle and you can be anywhere on that circle right because we such. I mean being human is such an amazing thing and the attraction that we feel is so complex right and when we think about sexuality again we think it's just sex up who we want to have sex with who we are attracted to right and I think it extends so much more beyond that and so at the end of the day I think we're all kind of indoctrinated into the cult of heteronormativity where we are constantly grown up to think that our girls, you know are going to have crushes on boys and boys are going to have crushes on girls and you know we have to resonate with the sex that we've assigned it but but again we are complex human beings and we're going to break out of that mold eventually and it's we have to break away from that thinking that if you experience sexual attraction to someone who you're not supposed to experience sexual attraction towards and I put that in air quotes that you're automatically gay right because it's just so hard for us to fathom that we can hold complex identities and we can experience attraction beyond just the person that we want to have sex with. You know we had this thing once we did a podcast with somebody on fantasies and under that I both realized that it when we fantasize we fantasize about women. And when we're actually with our partners that they're male. And again you know just explaining this to people was. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but I guess moving on to the next thing that again. A couple of people have been saying and they've been writing in over and over again that I think I'm by but now what, like, how do I take it further what do I do. Do you have any advice. Well, congratulations for staff, I think identifying in a world that forces you to erase your identity is powerful and it's rebellious and so by by folks experience tremendous mental health adversities because 50% of the LGBT community identifies as being bisexual we do suffer the most high rates of depression and anxiety and suicidal ideation from the difficulty in coming to terms with that identity right because it's easy for people to think that if you're somewhere on the spectrum then you just don't exist because you just haven't made up your mind yet so congratulations on coming out I think that's awesome. And I will say that it's not, I would almost omit the now what. Because coming out is a continuous journey, and it's experiencing what being bisexual means to you right and everybody is so unique that like I mentioned before there isn't a criteria there isn't a life plan that I can produce that can be applicable for every single person, I think it depends on your life circumstances, it depends on intersectionality and other intersecting identities, how you choose to navigate the world. And even your location right I think a lot of these things can play a big role in how you navigate your bisexuality. And I like to emphasize a couple of things, which is, I think chosen family and community can be incredibly affirming to your identity to your sense of self, having people that can continuously reaffirm and validate who you are. And I had a group of friends in the beginning that when I was erasing my own identity they were like, no you're bi stop it like you are a bisexual woman embrace it. And I think that was one of the more powerful things that I had sought out was finding a queer community where I feel validated where I feel loved and reaffirmed. And just continuing to learn more about yourself and how you experience your own bisexuality I think is what I would say to the now what. Marla, what you're saying is so interesting about the community because recently I had this experience as somebody was sharing something very similar that each time that they came out as a bisexual person. It could have been either way somebody could have said no you're straight somebody could have said no you're, you know, unless they could have had multiple and then accepting the identity was so difficult. However, as soon as they found somebody who was affirming as a mentor as a guide as a girlfriend as a boyfriend, you know, as soon as they had somebody who had actually affirmed their own identity and their identity. That was kind of like game changing for them to have that community where your identity is accepted. It was really game changing. So yeah, that's really powerful. Yeah, I mean I would also say I hate that most bisexual people I talked to and this only just breaks my heart a little that they say I'm bisexual but right like there's always a caveat right because we've heard those comments from so many people like I'm bisexual but I've never dated someone of the same sex or gender. I'm bisexual, but I'm married. I'm, I'm a cis woman I'm married to a cis man. I'm bisexual, but I only have straight friends right there's always this caveat why can't it ever just be I'm bisexual period. Do you have any recommendations for communities, organizations, etc. That we might be able to sort of recommend to people. Right, yeah. I know that GASY India hosts a ton of queer events. It's G-A-Y-S-I, I would follow them on Instagram and actually this is such a funny moment because I'm hosting like a, like a bisexual support group on March 15th. I'll share some of the details with you and this is a by plus space and we've hosted a couple of before on as part of Tata Health Media which is like a sexual health database that is geared towards providing culturally informed sex education and sexual health for communities of color but mainly focused on like queer South Asian and you know South Asian kids because I know that there are a lot of we are a very unique community and we have a lot of unique issues that are tied to our sexualities and our gender identities and I like to emphasize and bring those to light so that is one and I would recommend that there are actually a ton of amazing pages on Reddit. And I think that that's really just how you find community because you're on Reddit or you're on Instagram or you're on Twitter, follow them, you know, comment, engage with them because I feel like that's how I met a lot of my amazing friends who are not just me but who are really affirming, who are gay, who are lesbian and who see me for who I truly am. You don't have to exclusively find, you know, someone who shares exactly the same identifiers as you but I would recommend some of those communities and I can always share additional ones after this call as well. And we can put them in the caption and then people can access them more easily. I was just thinking about 20 odd years ago. I used to run a support group for young South Asian girls in this country in the UK. So, and that I both based in London, who young girls were wanting to come out, and we're being told by their parents that this was against their culture, and they and, you know, starting back there where just young girls wanting to come out and trying to find somebody would hold their hand and say it's okay even to be South Asian and gay is all right. And we have come a long way. We have come a long way that you know we now support groups for so much more than that which is fantastic. Okay, coming into the next one which is what's the difference between childhood fantasies of being by and actually being by as an adult. I don't know, like you said you can't actually quantify something like this. But a lot of times when people ask these questions. I think that they really are looking to see how much of an answer we can provide them in the simplest terms so if you can find some way of responding to that that'd be great. So I will say that culturally speaking in the context of a country like India where there are so many diverse cultures and there are languages right so I think in specifics I love in New York City and I think that using this as a comparison. And I think I had seen some interesting headlines that said, why are so many more Gen Z and you know younger kids coming out to square. And I think it's because we have created communities that are safer and there are more people that are accepting who work in as public school teachers, you know, parents are accepting. But I also think that they we have found language to describe it right like, we didn't have terms like bisexuality plus. And so when you really think about India and its diversity and all the languages that isn't sufficient language right or sort of like a cultural archives even to say, we haven't really archived queer life we haven't documented it enough so when you're growing up and you're really thinking about this there isn't enough language to describe what you're going through and that's why I think we, we tend to think in terms of extremes that if you have a fantasy about someone of the same sex that you are automatically gay because that's the language we have right. And I think that children as young as four can have a sense of what their gender is right and they can have a sense of whether they resonate with the gender that they were assigned it but whether they don't and so I, you know I have pictures of my brother wearing my dresses, and you know my parents put me in a suit and we kind of as children play around with our gender identity and are kind of who we are, who we have brushes on right and I think this kind of develops into puberty and you know as teenagers we're kind of like experimenting and it depends on the context that we grew up in. And I some kids can come out of that with like a term or a label, such as by if they have access to that language. Others are just kind of just figuring it out, especially if you have a supportive environment and you know if I have a kid and at that point if I use language like partner or who are you dating kind of using gender neutral term or trying to talk to them you know as we're talking about sex education and all of that stuff. So it's kind of, I hate to use the term phase but it is a very critical phase though because they are figuring out who they are attracted to what their gender is what the gender expression is and that is so paramount to who they are as a person, right. And that can be fluid and it's very, very fluid right there are how they choose to identify is and set in stone and I think the same can be said as an adult right because right now I'm also kind of going through a fluid phase and 32 years old. You know I have my own house I pay my bills etc I've already kind of gone through that phase as a teenager but I think as an adult. I'm still having some of those questions right where I'm still like maybe I'm more pan and then I am bisexual but you know pan sexuality and bisexuality have a lot of like over that and I have that language to kind of describe it. So I do think that there isn't so much of a difference, but if you are young and if you are having fantasies or if you are kind of questioning, stay in that phase, but even if you do choose to like a label, you know just know that it's not set in stone. And how would you know so we also know when you were speaking about India and language and spaces. We know that just because of the taboo and shame around experimentation a lot of time happens with the same sex partner because that's just you know, like parents right, allow you to go and spend time with the same sex person but not the opposite sex and everything. And that sometimes gets confusing for people as well that they it's just curiosity as young person and you tend to experiment with same sex. And, you know, what would you say to people who have experimented like I find it troublesome to say you're not by or you're not straight or that was just experimentation, rather than keeping it just, you know, you tried something with someone and that's okay so I started not to box people in and I think that this is a problem that we fall into even today with this idea so I saw this interesting posts. I thought this someone had described that they are, they are lesbian, but because they have sex with men that they are not lesbian and people are not a lesbian. And I think this is the thing right like no one can tell you what you are. And these are labels and identities right and they, they affirm who you are and they help you find community in a place in this world. And at the same time I think that this is the thing that we just need to understand is that sexuality and who you have sex with so who you have sex with and your sexuality and not the same. And so your sexual identity and your sexual being is not the same as who you have sex, right so your, your label you can be heterosexual, if you say I am heterosexual, and you are MSM is a very. It's a category now men who have sex with men. And I actually do find that label very interesting, especially when it comes to HIV and AIDS research and I only bring that up because I was at Hopkins at the doing AIDS research we were looking at that where it was gay men and then men who have sex with men right is a very important category because, again, who you had sex with is not your gender identity is not your sexual identity sorry. So, your sexual orientation can be heterosexual and you can have sex with men, you can have sex with women, you can have sex with whoever you want to have right and I think that the problem with the society again is that we like to tell people who they are based on the people that they have sex with right. And so as you're growing up and you are exploiting yourself you're exploiting your sexual orientation. Yeah, I'm having sex, having crushes can be valuable, but it isn't necessarily. It doesn't equate to one another. Sorry, I'm just going to go ahead with something. I just did an article for times of India. I write this column for them. And I was saying that you know the term that comes up now is heteroflexible, which is what Gen Z uses and I just think that it's, it's such a good word you know to be able to just expand your mind to fit that because you, you do have to expand your mind to fit that particular word. And I know that the reaction it gets is like, oh, you know, like bloody kids. But it's, and, and I'm, okay, I like this term I hadn't come across this one men who have sex with men. Yeah, so you said it's called MSM. Yes, because we just received this email from this guy who said he's going through a tough time he's married he's straight blah blah but he says that when he needs solace. He performs oral sex on men and he finds that that comforts him. You know, there was this question around it. Yeah, sorry, go on. No, no, I was just going to say that this idea that the idea that men have had sex with men and we spoke about that seem about from the Roman Empire right like it's a leisure activity and talking about it. The HIV AIDS research always gets this fact that was true for even the NAS Foundation in London. They were finding a lot of heterosexual women contracting HIV. And what turned out was that their partners who were in a heterosexual marriage when had leisure sex with men. That's why they were contracting it and you know they found the spots that were most common for it and everything and, but they run a group also, and they very categorically call it an MSM group and they have a gay group but they have an MSM group because a lot of Latin American and African men, people from those continents. They're completely normal and they're okay to have sex with men but don't identify as being gay. So even they run an MSM group. So, and I now have a question which I think again, it's been coming up a lot is, how does a by relationship work. Do I live with both partners, or do I move in with one or do I live between homes. That's a good question so we are conflating bisexuality with polyamory and those are not the same. They are not synonymous with each other bisexuality is a sexual orientation polyamory is a relationship. It's not a word style, or I will say that it is a type of relationship so when we think about monogamy and we think of polyamory we think about ethical non monogamy. And so polyamory can include everything outside of monogamy right so this is swinging this is ethical non monogamy, you know we've heard of troubles right and so everything that you're describing or in the question is polyamory. Monogamous people can be bisexual right and they don't think that your relationship status or you're the, the, the people that you seek out in your life are contingent on being bisexual and I will explain that a little bit more right. Polyamorous people can be bisexual, but not all bisexual people are polyamorous, right, and so I'll give myself as an example I am in a monogamous relationship with my husband, I am bisexual, me and him live together. And there is no one else involved in our relationship it is just the both of us and to me my sexual orientation and my sexual identity are still very valid and they exist I am very much a bisexual woman, even though I am in a monogamous marriage right. And I think that again I want to bring back this caveat right that many people feel like their bisexuality is not valid because they are in a monogamous relationship and they have to be in a polyamorous relationship right. And again this is rooted in biphobia and the idea that bisexual people are inherently promiscuous and confused and need to have a lot of sex in order to validate their own identities but this is not true right. How do you know that you are straight when you are like 13 years old right and you haven't kissed anyone and you haven't even held hands with someone and you're like I'm straight and I have a crush on them. Why can't the same exist, you know for bisexuality and for other kind of you know identities within the LGBTQ community. And I really want to extend this to tell this person that you know you are bisexual in a relationship. It's literally just that like you are a complex human being this is your sexual orientation. You can choose to be polyamorous if you want to, but most people are monogamous and very happily bisexual. And so I think it really depends on what you are into and the kind of relationship that you seek. What you said is really powerful and it's a great role model. What do you say to people who are very afraid that their bisexual identity gets lost when they, you know, they're in a committed monogamous relationship. You know, so you have a husband so the world might see you as a heterosexual couple in some ways, and you are coming out as a role model saying I'm still bisexual yet. And also how is the process for you to, you know, choose like was it difficult to give up, you know, was it confusing or difficult to say that people might not see me as bisexual if I get married, or how was that process. It's very difficult right and I, I don't enjoy the word passing, because I do think that it reinforces the, the societal structures that we live in, but I will say that, you know, being in a heterosexual passing relationship it offers me and I did a post about this a couple of, and I've had some really interesting conversations about this where it offers me a definite privilege right because we do live in in violently heteronormative cultures that prioritize that and so if I was in the same sex relationship, or if I was in a sex relationship where it's that much harder for me to access healthcare it's harder for me to, you know, get a loan so that I can educate myself, sign a mortgage buy a house etc right because there are so many biases that that exist within us, like our societies. I would say that being in in a heterosexual passing relationship definitely awards me many privileges. But it is a double it sword right because it is extremely erasing, and I think this is something that I had brought up before that we suffer from elevated rates of depression anxiety and uncertainty around our identities and I think being in relationships. And it is almost you know we we face a lot of flak from both sides of the community I had gone to a gay bar and I was dancing with someone. And they, I said, oh I'm married and they were like no no I just want to dance with you so I was like okay cool like we're just dancing and lose me and another woman and. And then I was, we were just having a normal conversation and I said, yeah, my husband is a is you know xy and she's just like your husband, I thought that you were queer. And I was like, I am. So I think that this is such an interesting con and she's like what are you doing in a gay bar. And I was like, oh okay you know this is not queerness is not an aesthetic I don't have to look queer to be queer right but that's. And at that point I was like, first of all that's a very interesting conversation to have with someone right and I was in a gay bar which is exclusively like, you know, gay men, more geared towards gay men and someone had called me. And this is a slur so so don't repeat it, it is a fag hag and you know a fag is a slur used towards the queer communities, especially if you're gay it's used in a very dedicated sense. And it is referred to words straight women who only exclusively have gay friends. And I think that you know when you listen to sentences like this or when you hear sentences like luckily my friends start out for me it was like she's actually by so she's in a queer circle right now like she is valid and she can be here. But I think it's interesting that when you talk about your life and you talk about the way you look and etc that I think the world needs such a like an immediate reminder of who you are and sometimes I feel like I talk about my bisexuality because it's an active rebellion because you're trying so hard to understand what it is, but sorry, you can't. I'm going to keep talking about it about how fabulously bisexual I am. And I, that I just wanted to bring that up right so it is the doubly it's warden that I deal with a lot of flag from the, from the LGBT community and from, you know, the heterosexual straight community, but it's also that I have a lot of privileges in my relationship and that I'm able to navigate a really heterosexual lifestyle. But it's like a, it's like quicksand, isn't it? It's like a swamp, you walk along and at every step you can sink and it's like how the hell do you keep going? I think at one, what I really feel is that you have to keep proving your identity rather than people just being like it gets erased or it gets passing but you just have to keep identifying with it or like you know it's so that feels really like it feels really difficult that you have to constantly reaffirm it in some ways and it couldn't just be. It has to be reaffirmed each time. Right, and I think that this is why it is so important that we have affirming spaces and we find so I go for therapy and I have a queer therapist right who is also a member of the LGBT community and I talk a lot about this with her. I also have a very, very supportive partner and a group of friends who identify as gay and lesbian. And so when people who are ignorant make comments especially on the internet or in real life, to me it no longer bothers me because I feel like I have such a rooted existence and identity and I'm very lucky and that's why again and again I feel like this is why it's so important to keep having these conversations and to keep having kind of like a north star or almost like a group that you gravitate towards because in the end everyone's going to tell you what you aren't. This is what people love to do they love to tell you who you are and who are you who are not. And I think as women, South Asian women, you know, and as a queer woman I think that this you just deal with it a lot. And I'm extremely grateful and privileged to have this really amazing community around me that is like, don't listen to them they have no idea what they're talking about you're so by. And I have to tell you that, you know, a lot of our, a lot of the people who are my friends, you know, the circle of friends that I have around me have kind of come to accept that Seema talks about sexuality Seema is just going to say stuff that most of us wouldn't talk about but we kind of smile quietly and listen. And the other day I said this at a party I said you know, we were talking about this question that I'm with and I answered last time about this young man who said that he's very young is only intimate relationship to now has been with his best friend who's also guy. And he says I'm not gay but that's been my relationship till now. And I was trying to explain to these ladies that that happens all the time I mean I you know when you're younger, especially in India, you don't necessarily have access to people of the opposite sex. And so the only experimentation you're going to do is with people of your own sex mostly, or these stuff to a certain age. And I was saying how growing up, I went to boarding school when I was five years old. And it was an all girls boarding school and there's a certain amount of experimenting that was done. And you know they listen to this part of it because this is acceptable okay yes you know you're a young kid and a senior takes you along for this. But you have to understand that I enjoyed the experience. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Hence, I wish to repeat it so in the earlier part of my growing up. I did have one to maybe even three friends or maybe four friends along the way with whom I shared this intimacy. I was old enough to find somebody from the opposite sex and then, you know, understand what I like better or what I prefer to whatever but those fantasies and that pleasure didn't ever go away I mean that's always stayed in my mind. And there was just this shot silence because it was like, that was a step too far. You know that you said that you enjoyed it, and you willingly repeated it, you know the experience. And just trying to explain to people that, you know, this is something that the body and the brain reacts to it's, it's what turns you on it makes you excited. And then you can move forward, in whichever way you want you can decide. No, I was just going to say next time you can say to them that your sexual identity is completely different from who you're sexually active with so you can be sexually active with girls, but you can identify as a heterosexual or heterosexual or whatever. I'm going to quote Varuna the next time. I'm going to quote Varuna the next time, but it really was such a show. And you know, a lot of them said, Oh, but would you say this again in front of people and as long I say it I say it in interviews I say it in public. And people are going to listen to this podcast and they're going to now label me some more I mean I'm bad enough as it is. Unless you have something under that I have one final question to ask Varuna. No, I was just going to add and that was what you know Varuna had said that that person had specifically said I am not gay, you know, he had chosen that this was something that he enjoyed he liked it. I met that he wanted to engage in it, but he did not identify as gay and I think what you were saying earlier about giving the choice, you know, giving what resonates for somebody and what their preference is, is more important than who they're having sex with or how they are so their identity is very different from what they might be experimenting with or enjoying. And we really hope that everybody listening is actually going to take this on board and that it's been reiterated sorry Varuna interrupted you. No, not at all. No, I was just going to reiterate that same fact as well where I was going to say that identifying as queer, right queer used to be a slur again queer used to be something that was weaponized against us. You know, depending on who you have sex with or however you identify right I think it's an active rebellion in this world that forces you to to conform and to identify as being straight and they love those labels right they we love gender reveal these we'd love to say no that's a boy he likes think you will marry a man you are straight. Right and so I think that exploring our sexual identity and understanding that you are someone again with complex who can experience emotional and romantic and sexual attraction to multiple people. And the, at the end of the day they're all just labels right they're all just identities, and, but I think making a point of what you just said that you can experience all kinds of attraction, we don't necessarily have to follow that through you can be monogamously with somebody in your chosen identity, and yet feel everything else as well. Exactly. No I absolutely agree. So I want to finish with one last question, which also I think about three people in the last weeks and then saying, what if my partner is not by, I feel like you answered it to some extent but would you repeat that bit for us. Absolutely right and so bisexuality so I'm bisexual, my partner is heterosexual, I know a ton of people who are by whose partners are also by right and that is that they're the people that they are sexually like sexually attracted to words is more than the person that they are sleeping with or that they are in a relationship with and so it's not necessary again this is one of those criterias that we seem to be obsessed with is that if I'm by my partner needs to be by. In most cases, you don't have to be with someone who is by. I know a ton of by people that are in relationships with a gay person so I know like same sex couples one of them is a lesbian and another one is bisexual. And again, as much as I would say that my, my relationship looks heterosexual by saying in that case that identity could also be a race because it looks like a homosexual relationship or a same sex relationship right. But one of the people in that relationship is by and so I don't really think that you need to be with someone who is bisexual you just need to be with someone who affirms who you are and allows you to be your best bisexual self. And I would just reinforce that that I think if somebody is biphobic or you know is homophobic then that might not be a partner that you'd want to go with that has to be somebody that is affirming is open. It's not going to put down your identity in any way if it were to come up so I think that is way more important than them being from the same, you know that they're both bisexual or they're both both partners are gay or bisexual. It's more that they're affirming of your identity. And that could be true even if you have a gay partner and the gay partner is not affirming of your bisexual identity that's as bad as a heterosexual partner, not affirming your bisexual. Yeah, I love that that is very, very true because I feel like even though my partner identifies as being heterosexual is incredibly affirming is incredibly supportive and that's all that I could ask for. Please thank you so much, both of you for being over here, everyone of course out there knows and loves Anvita, Dr. Anvita Madan Behl who is a psychosexual therapist and is actually wonderful at everything that she does on this podcast and Varuna. We've been so privileged to have you with us today really it's been, we've been wanting to do this for so long and I'm so happy we finally made it happen and I'm sorry about the last couple of times of my messing up and not making it happen. So, and generally, when we finish, we always ask people that if they want to get in touch with somebody. Is there a place where if somebody has questions, Varuna is there somewhere that they can reach out to you. So if you follow me on my Instagram, that's at dr varuna sri and IVS and so that's at dr Varuna Stringy Busson, and then you can also follow at our health media where, which is a sexual health database and we actually have a comprehensive queer database that explains all the queer terminology So if you have any questions that you can DMS. I would like to say, Tara help. Yes, I will put it in the chat here. Brilliant so we will put that in our caption below so that everybody can access that more easily. And of course, if you need to get in touch with on with that for a consultation she is at. gmail.com but once again it'll be in the caption below. And if you want to send any questions into me I am on info dot Seema dot on and that gmail.com. We receive our questions over there and we try and answer them as best as possible. I hope that you found this podcast useful and if you did, please do comment like subscribe. In the meantime, look after yourselves stay healthy and we will see you here very soon again.