 And here we are live again this weekend on The Metal Voice and with us again, Alan, who do we got? Can you hear me, Alan? I said, Alan, who do we got today? We've got Nick Bocott of Grim Reaper fame and a second time on the show. It's great to have you here, Nick. Yep, honored to be back. I guess you couldn't get a good guess, so you called me as a second fiddle, but I appreciate it. We enjoyed it so much the first time we said we got to have you back for a second time. Well, I enjoyed it too, so thanks for having me back today. Who else to talk about the brilliance of Ingve Malmsteen, Nick Bocott, you know what? He works at Sweetwater, a content creator over there, a big cheese over there, as well as, you know, he also teaches. And Sweetwater, you know, being this, maybe you want to speak to what you do there. I'm what they call a content creator. I kind of don't like that term much. It means I make videos and write articles that hopefully interest people and make them want to buy gear and be interested in artists, yada, yada, yada. But I enjoy it immensely. And my pedigree or my relationship with Ingve goes way back because I was with Marshall back in the day. I was with Marshall for nearly 20 years, so I worked with him on his signature amp, which is amazing, an amazing amplifier, by the way. And I've done several things with him over the years. He asked me to MC a competition he was doing before COVID, where the winner of people from all of the globe came and played in Florida. And winner got to play on the cruise. And Ingve played any jammed with Steve Vai, Rudy, Sazo and Nico McBrain. Oh wow. And I was the MC and it was, it was a blast. You know, I've got to know Ingve as a friend over the years and not only is he a great guitar player, he's a really fun guy to hang out with. I know he has a reputation, but don't believe everything you read on the internet. My friends read on the internet because it's not all true. And yeah, he's funny guy, man. Like he's he has a very dry sense of humor. And you know, he's a relentless individual. He's very driven guy. Like I've interviewed him for sweet war on a couple of occasions and he has a book called relentless and that kind of sums him up. And I think the reason some people think he's hard to deal with is because it's his show. It's his way of the highway. And that's the way it should be. That's not arrogance. It's like, Hey, I'm Ingve Malmsteen. This is how I want to do it. If you've got an idea, good if I don't like it, I'm not going to do it. And the story's over because it's his, it's, it's his life. It's his career. Well, the good news in Canada is that's a great segue. He's come into Canada on March 8, 9, 10 and 11. He's coming into Quebec City on the 8th at La Sousse de la Martinelle. March 9th, Montreal Foune. March 10th, Brass Monkey and March 11th in Toronto at the Rockpilot. And the Brass Monkey is in Ottawa, by the way. And I'm going to put it in the description where he's playing. And we want to get everybody excited, Nick. We really want to get excited. It's a master class that Ingve is doing coming into Canada. And people are super, super excited because it's been a while. When's the last time, when's the last time you saw Ingve? I don't think I've ever seen him. Really? Yeah. Nick, I would make it a point seriously. No, not many to be obsequious towards Ingve. But if you've like hearing the record is one thing, seeing it up close in person is a whole another thing. Cause it's not pro tools. It's not studio trickery. It's just the guy who's really fricking good and dedicated. And it's, he's kind of scary to watch because he, because he makes it look effortless. But by the same time he's, he plays with, he plays with the fury. He unleashes the fury every time. Relentless. Yeah. He's a relentless man, but to watch it up close and personal is really, really something else. So if you've never seen it and you play guitar, just don't let it into that. You let, let it inspire you. I like that. I like that. I like that. You know, Nick, I saw him in 1992 or three, I can't remember where it was. I could not believe what I was seeing and hearing the speed, the precision, each note, you know, full, each full, each note, even though he's, you know how Jimmy Page is kind of sloppy and he's just hitting all the notes and it's very sloppy. This guy precision, precision fast. And these beautiful, you know, neoclassical sort of scales. Yeah. The cool thing about Ingve is that, you know, I've written for Guitar World and other magazines over the years, and he's one of the hardest guys to transcribe because he's playing from here. He's not playing like he is playing, you know, when he's playing the scale pattern, it's not, it's not mathematical. It goes beyond that because he's actually playing, he's playing from his heart. Yep. Yep. So he ebbs and flows with the track. It's not like you can't just sit there and go, it would be very hard to program a computer to play what he plays because of the little, little inflections he has and the way he'll, he'll hurry or slow down depending on the emotion he wants to convey. So he's like, he's not a muscle memory dude. It's more than that. He's playing, he's playing from within. Like he calls it unleashing the fury after that wonderful, wonderful effort on the plane, which we will probably shouldn't discuss, but that's, that's, that's what he is, man. It's, and the way I, the way I heard about Ingve was this is going back to like, this would be like 85, I think, or 84, 85. And I was in England. We just finished the, I think it was the, we finished one tour and this was way before the internet. There were no cell phones and guitar player put a Mac put a cover. There was an issue out, which I think had John Fogarty on the cover. Inside the head, one of those black, flexi discs and it was black star off the rising. Oh wow. Oh yeah. And a friend of mine got the issue and he spent literally five hours trying to find me around town. And he went to every pub. And eventually found me at my own singers place and we were playing some primitive video game. And he said, he came in. He's like, look, I'm sorry to bug you because you're having fun, but you have to listen to this right now. We put this flexi disc on and it was one of those. It was like hearing eruption for the first time or, or hearing a Randy Rhodes for the first time. It's, he didn't just reset them. He didn't just raise the bar. He kind of reset it. And the great thing about black star is it's not a fluke. It's just what, you know, it's not his, his one in the lifetime thing that he does that all the time. And it's a great mix of speed, emotion, passion. He knows when to pull back and be bluesy. He'll hold a note. He doesn't play fast all the time. He's got great vibrato. And he's a funny guy. So yeah, his master class should be good. And we did one with him at sweetwater a while ago just before COVID. Yeah. Mentioning it earlier. He basically played in front of the wall of Marshall. And he came in the night before. And we sound check. We have a pavilion outside. And if people were watching Doppler radar, if they thought it was a storm coming across. This is goddamn sound check. Cause he's loud. He's loud and proud as he should be. And the master class, I had the honor of MCing the master class. So he, like he played a few tracks to backing. And then answered questions and talked about various things playing wise. So. And he is a master. So it's, um, it's, it will be a class from a master, not just a master class by somebody's a master something else. I just wanted to say one thing. And as he was playing in 92 93, when I saw him, he was running around too. He was running around and, and he was playing super fast and super precise. He was just running around the whole stage the whole time. I was like, I can't believe this. I'm like a Neo classical Angus. Well said. Well, the shorts of the schoolboy hat. That's right. All right. I'm glad, I'm glad you said that, Nick, cause that was one of the questions I had for you was, uh, when the first time you heard them, but more importantly, how did his playing influence like Eddie, Eddie's playing influence, the whole generation. And I think English playing influence the whole generation. Rightly or wrongly, because a lot of them weren't playing from here, as you said, a lot of them were just doing, you know, up and down the fretboard. But I mean, I think he's in that class of guitars. Like you said, a Hendrix or a Van Halen. No, I think some, like some, some, like some guitar play, some guitar heroes are transient. If that was, you know, like they, they have their moment then they're gone and they're brilliant. But there are others like the Van Halen's, the pages that Jeff Beck may he rest in peace. The Dimebags, whose legacy remain, you know, and Inve still out there doing it as proven by the fact it's coming to Canada. He's done something like 22 albums thus far. He keeps doing what he does really well. And yeah, he changed the bar. In fact, um, my good pal, um, he says, name dropping shamelessly. Zach Wilde just did a top 11 guitar players for a revolver, which is on YouTube right now. It came out a few days ago. And one of his was Inve and he talks about the fact that Inve's impact was so massive. And I didn't know this. He's got friends, you know, Zach's friends were like Derek Schorinian, you know, the keyboard player and Derek and some other guys told him that when they were at Berkeley as a result of Inve's explosion, various classes were added to the, um, added to the Berkeley School of Music way of teaching because of his neoclassical influence. Yeah. That's amazing. That's truly that. That's when you sort of break the bar. You know, that you pass, you know, that you just go into another realm. Guys, we're going to talk about this as we go through the albums. Right. We'll do them quickly, right? Well, they'll go through the albums quickly and you just, and Nick, feel free to add, you know, commentary and me and Alan will throw it out. Alan, you got the albums in front of you. I mean, I think, you know, let's start off with the first one. I think Nick said the best black star. Right. That's right. Everything that he did following this album is all right there in that one song. That one song, some of that his whole career as far as I'm concerned. Well, actually I would, I would agree and disagree. I think it's, it like it was, it was a great appetizer. Yes. You know, like just like far from the sun is on that as well. And then there's the vocal stuff, you know, like Jeff Scott Soto sang on that record. And that record has got a lot of instrumental stuff, but the next three have got a lot more vocal tracks on. And he's, I liked it. He's, he's surprisingly, well, we say surprisingly, a lot of people wouldn't equate heaviness to Ingwe Malmsteen, but he's got some pretty heavy riffs and pretty fast riffs as well. Not just the solos, but some of his riffs are really hard to play. I think, I think what I meant to say was the roots of everything that he did following that, the roots are all right there, the classical influence, everything right in that black star amongst other songs on the album. But I mean, when I, when I went back to listen to that, that's what struck out for stuck out for me is that first, first song, how everything's right there that he's done since. So. I agree. Stay true to himself. How much of Uli John Roth? I mean, I hear a lot of that Scorpion's era sound on let's say a song like and now your ships are burned. Like there's a little bit of Uli John Roth. I'm not sure if that was a major influence of, I think it was to a certain degree. Well, I think you've got, you know, if you talk to Ingevay, he'll, he'll, he'll mention Paganini, you know, from way back when he'll talk about Beethoven Bach, all those classics guys. I mean, yeah, but then you've got people like Blackmore obviously. Yeah. Like Blackmore had an influence because Blackmore like Uli John Roth had a classical leaning as did Mike, as does Michael Shanker, you know, if you listen to some of the Shanker stuff, there's that two tonic classical thing, not the, well, Ingevay Swedish, but it's, it's a very, it's, it's, he's a very European artist. If that makes sense, even though he, you know, he didn't make it till he was brought over here by Mike Varney of Shratton Records in what, in 83, I think to play with Steeler and then Alcatraz. Alcatraz is right. Yeah. Well, reading an interview that he did back in the day, he's, I wasn't influenced by classical music. He was actually trying to play classical music with my guitar instead of a violin. He said, I follow more violins than anything else. So that was a distinction he made early on in his career. So it's not that he was influenced. He was actually trying to play classical music on the guitar. So. Yeah. Because in Paganini was a violinist. So yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. What's interesting too is, sorry, I didn't mean to step on you then, my friend, but like talking of Ritchie Blackmore. I was, I'm old enough and lucky enough to have gone to the first ever Castle Donington, like the castles, like the Monsters of Rock, the first big rock festival in England. And the headliner was where Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow. And then right below them was Judas Priest. And it was a magnificent day, like 80,000 people in the field in a racetrack in England. But there was an interview with Ritchie Blackmore just before that festival. And he said something which is stuck with me to this day. And the question was something like, what does it feel? Don't be froze. He froze there. He froze there. Sorry, it just froze up. Ritchie Blackmore said and then it froze. So Ritchie Blackmore, the question was, what's it like to be such a hugely influential guitar hero? And he kind of sidetracked the question and said, well, I'm flattered to be one. But one of these days, someone will approach the electric guitar with the same dedication and work ethic as a classical violinist. And then we're all in what? And then four years later. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. Mr. Malmsteen arrived. Wow. Yeah. And you know, one of my questions, one of the questions when I've interviewed him was his right of passage, if you will. And he started playing guitar after seeing Jimmy Hendrix on Swedish TV after Hendrix died. But then he would go to an uncle's, his uncle's house to practice guitar. And to get to his uncle's house, he had to take a bus, then a train, then another bus. So what he was, so what young Malmsteen did, being the relentless son of a bitch he is, is he didn't wait till he got to his uncle's to practice. He would practice on the bus and on the train and on the other bus. And he didn't care what people thought or said or laughed. He didn't care. And that's part of the reason why he is who he is, is that he approached the instrument with the dedication of a classical piano player or violinist. So Blackmore called it pretty well. Yeah. It's pretty amazing. The only thing with this one, it's the production. I still struggled. I went back to listen to it. I still struggle with the production on the rising four cell. I find that Ingve, he didn't quite create the songs in regards to vocal lines. Like the music is down packed. He's got the music. But the vocals kind of like, it was just sort of more like a guest appearance by Jeff Scott Soto than a, you know, Jeff Scott Soto is the singer of the band, even though he plays on two tracks. Even those are great tracks that he sings on. But it feels like he hasn't kind of figured it out yet. What a vocalist was supposed to do. I don't know if he didn't figure out, but I think he wanted to be in, I guess he had instrumental stuff up his, that was his arsenal. But he had a couple of songs, but because that changed on the next record for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But everybody learns and they grow too. And I'm sure even Ingve, he grows and learns and he, you know, that's, that's what art is, you know, repeating and learning and growing all the time. What are their tracks, Nick, on this album, the first one rising force? Did you, that stand out for you? As above so below. Just because it's so, because it's heavy, you know, and the vocal tracks are interesting as well. But for me, like the two big ones are, you know, far beyond the sun and black star, which we're an Ingve set to this very day. Yeah. I think he said, you know, he's stuck with those songs. You'll probably always have to play them. Yeah. Yeah. We're great songs, great songs. Alan, do you want to add anything to that? No, no. No one. Again, I'm a big fan and I'll talk about it later. Some of the other albums, but the Johansson, Jen Johansson on keyboards, I just think he added a whole other element to the band. And he was their ace in the hole. If we can say that he was their secret weapon, I think him on keyboards and the interaction between him and Ingve. We see some examples on this, but I think it's more prevalent in some of the later album. So I would agree with that too. And that's, and that's one thing that, you know, sort of flies in the face of, the invasion of an ego maniac. It's like, listen to the gun and records, the guitar solos. It's also great keyboard solos. Unbelievable keyboard solos. And they're not short keyboard solos either. It's not here. You've got three bars. It's like, go. Yeah. And sometimes they do all, they do all, they do it against each other or they follow the same lead lines and they're playing in harmony. So yeah, it's great stuff, man. It's great stuff. You don't see, you didn't see that happen too often between keyboards and guitar back in the day. So yeah, that's right. And now you have it like in dream theater, it's every song, right? But back then it was very rare. What was it? Yes. I guess deep purple. And yes. Yeah. And you're right. Heep. And I guess, and then ELP because that, yeah, ELP because of, because of Mr. Emerson may he also rest in peace. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was 1984. It reached number 14 on the Swedish charts. Number 60 on billboard 200. And it received the nomination of best rock instrumental performance in 1986. A Grammy Award, a nomination. Oh, that's pretty big for your first album. Right. It's, you know. All right. One more piece of trivia about the first record. Go ahead. Sure. Les, a guy called Lester Claypool was one of the engineers who worked on it. And we now know that was Les Claypool from Primus. Oh, okay. I thought so too when I saw the album, but then I Googled it and they said, no, it's a different one. I mean, what made sense, but yeah. Don't always believe like, well, I'm taking that from those. Sorry. This is another late and great, but one like, like to get ready for this because I realized that I own all those records, but on cassette, I don't have any on CD. So I wouldn't got this. So if anyone's not familiar with Inve, this is the, this is called Inve J. Malmsteen's Rising Force. Your ships are burning. Your ships are burnt. And it's the Polaroid years. So it's got the first four albums and then the fifth album and live album. The, um, Oh yeah. Which is kind of. But Malcolm, the, the wonderful English journalists for Karang and sounds. Malcolm Dome wrote the inner sleeve notes for this. He talks about the fact it's Les Claypool. And I, I'll believe less. I'll believe. Malcolm doke. Malcolm Dome over over fricking Google. I'm sorry. Rest in peace to Malcolm. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, another one. Yeah, that's true. I could tell you this as we leave off on this album. Um, when we were teenagers, me and Alan, suddenly the car, the guitars were all kind of concentrating on Eddie Van Halen. And then when Malmsteen hit the scene in 84, it was like, they forgot about Eddie Van Halen and everybody switched over to Malmsteen. That was the talk. That was the buzz. That's what everybody wanted to learn. And that's sort of, you know, even though Eddie was still big, don't, don't get me wrong. But then the new guys in town kind of thing. Yeah. He had that, that small record, what was it? 1984. Yeah. Yeah. There's a little hit. I'm just saying after it may, things started like heating up on the other side, marching out 1985. When you're later. There it is. There it is. There it is. Again, force. And my first, this was my first introduction to Malmsteen. And I'll see the light tonight with Jeff Scott Soto. Of course there were a video for that. That was quite popular at the time, but Jeff Scott Soto didn't sing. He wasn't in that video. It was Mark Bowles. It wasn't who was singing instead of him. That's a tidbit for everybody out there. Jeff Scott Soto was not in that video, even though he was, he did sing on that song, but it was Mark Bowles, Bowles who actually was performing and lip syncing to Jeff Scott Soto. But, and he was the vocalist on the next record, wasn't he? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. You know, don't let it ends a great song. There's just some good, good songs. There's some more Dungeons and Dragons lyrics that may be, which were popular at the time, but I am a biking. That one still stands out to the day. And again, just the, I think like you said earlier, Jim, that's more of a band record. Yeah. The production, I still have, it's not as bad as I remembered, but it's not to the point of some of the later albums. I think the production got better each album. So. I'll add this. He's an Alcatraz. You wanted to do a side project or a solo project on the, you know, sort of as he was an Alcatraz at the time, that was Rising Four's, but now he's out of Alcatraz and he wants to create his own sort of band. That's to your point, Alan. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I agree. Like I'll see the night tonight. I'll see the light tonight. It's a big one. Anguish and fear. I really like. Yeah. On the run again. If you listen to that guitar riff, you can hear some, some blackmore influence. And then there's the Dungeons and Dragons, like you said, disciples from Helen. There's some great stuff on that. And the thing I like about England, especially the use of the way he plays with the keyboard player, is that he can go from heavy to melodic and then back to heavy. And it's sort of, it's, it's catchy. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the songs, what I've noticed listening to the whole four albums, he's got his electric guitar, but he's a lot of times playing classical guitar at the same time, acoustic. And he's following the lead. So it's a, you know, usually you're back in the day besides Grim Reaper, you'd have two guitars and kind of harmonizing, but he does it with an acoustic guitar, along with the lead. It's a whole, you know, he kept doing these layers that were much more interesting, I think, than a lot of the bands were doing at that time. So. Yeah. I really enjoy his arrangement and his sense, his musicality. Yes. There was light and shade. Yeah. That's well said. Yeah. I find that on the run again, could have been a Grim Reaper song, especially sort of the verse portions. That just, to me, just reeks Grim Reaper. Again, you know, maybe because that, that's maybe I'm looking for that. I don't know. Maybe I'm selectively hearing it, but I find it's got definitely a Grim Reaper vibe, especially sort of in the, the verse. No, but I'm sure I influenced him. Or you never know, you never know, Nick, because I hear. Actually, I met him on a, I met him in a restaurant in 85. I think it would have been 85, I think. C, C. He was coming out of the bathroom. And I was going to the bathroom. And I just said, Hey, I just want to say I really don't interrupt you. You're here with your record. I just want to say I really enjoy your record. He goes, I know who you are. I like your stuff too. I always remembered that. And everyone said, the guy's an ass. It's like really, he was really polite to me and pretended he knew who I was, even though he probably didn't. So you never know. You never know. What is it when I listened to Dio and Vivian Campbell off the first two albums of Dio, and I listened to the rhythm playing of Inge on this album. I kind of, I see there's, there's a similarity there. Sort of like, it's kind of like a chugging, but I don't know what he's doing with the, the, the chord structure on the rhythm parts. I don't know if you could speak to that. It's like, to me, it's, it's the difference with, it's very European, but one of a better word, like Vivian's Irish. Yeah. So Vivian, Vivian was very sort of, you know, like Vivian, what was sweet savage? It wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were part of the new way for British MML. So it's, it comes from that sort of, that I'm made in UFO, Judas Priest kind of thing. And the same for, I would imagine the same for, in late to a degree, you know, because in Europe, you had the scorpions. You had UFO as well with my anchor and you had bands like, you know, and I'm at bands like I'm made, but I just think it's a very, very European thing. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, very 80s European. Well, there's a lot of, I hear a lot of Vivian and I hear a lot of Inge in the rhythm and it's sound, you know, I could have been a Dio song just as much as it could have been an Inge song, you know? Of course not in the soloing, that's another story. Right. Just in the rhythm patterns, that's all. Yeah, interesting. Listen to a song like, well, look, anguish and fear. I mean, that would be like a Dio song but insert the keyboard and guitar keyboard trade-offs and, you know, the solos there. Right. Injected in the middle. That's what I hear again. You know, we all hear different stuff. What song stick out for you, Nick? Well, I just said Anguish and Fear is one of the ones that I'm on the run again, just because it's on, yeah. Disciples I really like. And that Viking song as well. Yeah, I like it. And the other interest, there was apparently Polydors ad at the time. Once again, this is thanks to Malcolm Dome's excellent writings that they ran an ad saying possibly the fastest guitarist in the world. That was how they launched the record. I bet they, that makes sense that they did that. Yeah. Oh, he's definitely fast. I mean, it would take, what kind of practice? I used to hear things like, you know, he puts Vaseline on his hands. He greases his hands up and he practices every day. These were the rumors back in the 80s. Because he was playing so fast. It's just practice, right? It's just practice. Yeah, there's no, there's no hack. There's no app for that. It's muscle memory. You know, it's the same as a sprinter. What's it? Hussein Bolt wasn't naturally born to run that fast. He has to work his backside off. Yeah. And he'll warm up for 45 minutes before he runs for less than 10 seconds. And the same with someone like Ingve. They don't just walk on stage and do that. They'll warm up and they have a disciplined, in his case, relentless regime. There's no way just to maintain that level of, you know, just to maintain that level of dexterity. And accuracy, because it's not just speed. It's like, it's two handed thing. Yeah, it's precision, precision. And the showmanship as well is quite phenomenal. He was running around the stage, right? And doing, and being precise, right? And that was before backing tracks where the flavor, you know, of what everybody's doing today, right? So he was doing it for real. You know, you brought up a good point, Nick. I mean, he was criticizing time for technique without soul. And I'm going to go right into it right now. Trilogy is the album that changes that. All right, hold on a sec. Let me just call it out. I mean, I'm listening to the instrumental crying. And that changed everything for me. That shows the soulfulness of his playing. I mean, again, the acoustic, the way it ties in with to the electric, just that song alone, I think is one of his greatest compositions. I just love that instrumental crying off a trilogy. So. Well, I would go back once again to the first thing I heard, the first thing I heard, the thing that impressed me most about Blackstar, which, you know, first impressions, last impressions, was not just the amazing speed, but the emotion behind. Like he starts off, it doesn't start. He doesn't come out of the gate screaming. It's a slow build. And some of those notes he's hitting in the vibrato, that was, you know, that's, that's from here. It's not, it's not, oh, look at me. I practiced for eight hours. I can do this. It wasn't wrote. There's nothing robotic about what he does at all. This album is a testament that not only is he a incredible guitarist, but he can write some really good, memorable and melodic songs too, which that in itself is another art form. Yo, yeah. I mean, you don't remember, I'll never forget. I mean, that's a harbinger of what's to follow on the next album, but you've got stuff like Magic Mirror that's quite catchy. Queen and Love. Queen and Love, even Liar, you know? And then he finishes with the Trilogy Suite, which I mean, right there is all this classical influence and his writings. And again, Ian Johansson is unbelievable on keyboards on this album. So. Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, the Trilogy Suite Opus 5, that's seven minutes and 13 seconds of brilliant, of brilliance, not just on guitar, but as an arrangement, as a band ensemble. And as you said, the keyboard playing is wonderful too. How many movements? I should have counted how many movements are just in that song alone. A lot. Yeah. Alan, show the album one again, once again. Trilogy. That is the best cover art of Ingeby Malmsteen, out of his 20-something albums. That is the greatest. When does this come out, Jim? Because I actually purchased this. 1986. 1986. What day, what time? Halloween, 31st of October, 1986. This joined my collection. I purchased it. But I mean, we should also give credit to Jeff Scott Soda from the last album, because not only is he a power metal singer, but man, he's got a distinctive tone. But now, enter Mark Bowles, right? This guy. Just keeps carrying the torch. He is like, not only is he a clean singer, but he's got a little raspiness in his voice and he's got the range. Not that Jeff Scott Soda doesn't. Jeff Scott Soda, amazing job. Mark Bowles, amazing job as well. Just different. He's got a sort of a Dawkins style this time around. What's interesting, they dropped the rising force, right? This was just Ingevay J. Malmsteen. No, I think it was rising force up until Odyssey, is it not? I know, but on the album, it's funny how the album cover doesn't mention anything about rising force. It's just Ingevay J. Malmsteen. Yeah. When did the J come into play? Just joking. Well, it goes back to what was it? The Christopher Gaster, as Nigel said, when they did the... The separator from all the other Ingevay Malmsteens of the world. That's good to hear again. That's the separator from all the other Ingevay Malmsteens. Yeah. Brilliant. And then he said, I heard him play and I put my guitar down and he used it as a coffee table. Yeah. It's funny, classic lines. We remember them 40 years later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are my lungs. These are my lungs. All right. What else in trilogy? What else stood out for you over the years, Nick? Well, Alan pretty much ticked my list. Magic mirror liar. You don't remember, I'll never forget. And trilogy suite, you know, the trilogy suite is amazing. And we're also entering an era of hair, glam, you know, this big sound, anthemic, a lot of reverb. So that's kind of like he's also moving with the times, in a sense, on this album. You know, of course, he's got his own stamp. Yeah, I think like Ingevay, he moves with his. He moves with the times, but they're not. His songs are not as simple as you might think. They they aren't cookie cutter, like a lot of the songs. Yes, that's right. That's right. Like he's got key changes up the wazoo in a lot of them. Yeah, yeah. But but but not at the expense of the overall melodic impact and structure of it. So you listen to the song go, oh, that sounds that's really cool. Then you go, my God, that's really complicated, though. Yeah. And again, I think this was his most mature album up until this point when it was trilogy really built on each album. He seemed to have built on it and become more complete as a songwriter as well. So yeah, one thing we got to remember is in the 84 he was 21. Wow. Wow. Yeah, you know, so he prodigy. Yeah. What was Alan doing at 21? He was doing anything close to success of this, that's for sure. Nick, how old were you when you had a little bit of success there in that in Graham Ray Bird, the early, early, early days? What we our first success was really but like back in the back in the good old days before the Internet, all that stuff, like when heavy metal started getting popular, thanks to people like Saxon and Iron Maiden, the new wave, if you will, magazines like Karang. Well, no, there were the weekly newspapers. There was a weekly newspaper called Sounds, which had an article, Jeff Barton, who went on to create Karang. There was Melody Maker and New Musical Express and Sound started the charge. They started running a heavy metal chart based on local DJs in big clubs and then the other two followed suit. So our first sort of success, not financial, but I we actually got it before Steve was in the band, like we actually got we would send stuff out to these guys and they would actually play it and then put it in their charts. Wow, which is which is what got us attention, which is why Karang paid attention as well. So these guys are in the heavy metal charts. There must be something going on here. And it was just me being a persistent son of a bitch and like tracking these people down and sending them stuff. Neil Kay, correct? Yeah. Well, Neil Kay was the guy that started it all off. But then there were there were people like the Bailey, but there were there were people in all every town had a Neil Kay. OK. Like, yeah, Neil Kay was the the other like the headbanger, the initial headbangers. He was he was the headbangers ball before there was a headbangers ball. In fact, I thought I might have mentioned this in the last time we taught. Neil Kay got so big, because it is that he he did a tour. As a DJ and he had the big band was a band called Rage, who used to be called Nuts, N-U-T-Z. But the two opening acts were an unsigned Iron Maiden and an unsigned Saxon. Wow. Yeah. And I saw them play Manchester, U-Mist, which is Manchester University Institute of Science and Technology. But unsigned unsigned huge bands opening for a DJ. And just just they must again, they must have been just the summarizing and what everybody was feeling at that time, those two bands, I would think. Yeah, which is why they, you know, deservedly went on to Saxon never got the success that made and did, you know, in America. But Saxon, I mean, Saxons still are a great band. I would not want to follow those guys live. No, you know, I've become good. I've become good friends with Paul Quinn over the years. And yeah, they like they they played the they keep it true, first of all, that I did the Steve tribute hat. They were the headliner on the Saturday and their set was flawless. Yeah. Yeah. Powerful as was Diamond Heads, by the way. Another great band. Yeah. You know, Nick, just like me and Allen in the Americas, we'll say we grew up sort of at the golden age of metal watching you guys. Right. You grew up sort of at the birth of heavy metal in, you know, the UK. I mean, that must I mean, we could talk about this for like an hour. Yeah. You know, I remember British deal coming out and just going, wow, you know, to me, British deal was such a pivotal record with regards. Well, you can write heavy stuff that's three minutes long and really catchy. And they have to play on top of the pops. That was freaking great. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever see the Sex Pistols? I have. I didn't see them the first the first ever Grim Reaper. Well, I didn't see them, but I saw I list I saw them on the Ogre whistle test. And I was so because they basically sound like like a heavy metal band with a with a punk singer. So I have Anakin UK on EMI. OK, yeah. So I so I bought that single before they dropped the like before they got dropped because of their TV fiasco. Oh, well, I was brilliant. There's a chance I prize you. Yeah. But then it was that it was the it was the the. There was a guy called Bill. This was before the bill bill. Yeah, I go Bill Grundy. Yeah. And he was I thought you guys were supposed to be outrageous. And they didn't have any time delay or anything. They'd say something outrageous and they called him the C word. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God, the expression on his face and their faces. Sorry. It was great. So anyway, but the first Grim Reaper show in America. However, we opened for a band called Check It Past in in when did we in in Boston? And that band was that was Steve Jones from the Sex Pistols with the rhythm section from Blondie and Michael Desbar singing them. Oh, my gosh. They were great. Yeah, you know, Neil Kay has been on the show. And let me tell you, every time we talk to him, it's like a two hour session. Of course, the knowledge and the things that he's done for the birth of heavy metal, shall we say? He's got a book out, basically. So he's he does and he's I'm glad he's getting the credit he does. He deserves because, you know, when when he was big enough, when when someone like him takes out and unsigned, I made the non-signed sax, that tells you something. Yeah, I call my uncle. Yeah. You call him. He calls me his nephew. I've never met the gentleman, but I've got to have nothing but time and respect for him because like he was one of the he was a an evangelist extraordinaire. Unbelievable. Who would have thought, like you said before, a DJ could lead a movement like that. It's just it's just unbelievable. Well, spear spearhead. Yeah, because I think the movie was happening regardless in England, right? No, no, he was he was driving it, though. He was driving it. He was he was he was creating a place for these people to congregate, these fans to congregate. He he he he's responsible for the one in the in the in the 80s. They would have heavy metal discos. Yes. Yes. That was not an oxymoron. It was it was a great thing that every club worth salt had a heavy metal disco. They'd have a heavy metal DJ. And they'd have air guitar competitions. And it was the whole yeah, it was the whole it was a movement. It was that it was wonderful. It was wonderful to have to have been a small part of because it was it was it was a game changing time for a lot of people. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's go. But yeah, back to Mr. Back to I guess the fourth album, we're we're back to Rising Force. Rising Force. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Let us see ours. Now things are really changing. And and yeah, I mean, you know, they're they're they're out attempting to grasp that golden ring of what we call commercial success. And what a what a you know, I look at this out in like from Rainbow, right? Going from Long Live Rock and Roll with Dio and singing about the gates of Babylon to Down to Earth or Graham Bonnet. And it's, you know, since you've been gone since you've been gone, you know, it's it's such a drastic change from trilogy to this. Not that it's a bad album. This for for what it's trying to attempt to do is a great album. And as we're getting a mature singer like Joe Lin Turner, who's who fits these songs perfectly and like a song like Heaven Tonight. I mean, you know, that's the equivalent of David Lee Rock just just like Paradise, you know, so there's a lot. There's a few songs I think could have been on trilogy on this album, some great instrumentals. And again, the keyboard play is an interaction with your mom's team. But for me, it's a much more. It's almost a departure of what he's done up until this point. So they all said, Alan. I think you just checked all of Nick's little boxes. Well, the question I would have for Nick is, would you find this overly commercial or is just well, you know what? What what what was interesting for me is that like to me, it was the logical succession. It was the logical success of the trilogy, if that makes sense. Yes, because you don't remember on the forget and also Queen of Love. They started studying it and it was and it was also your trilogy was his first top 50 record in America as well. And as good as Jeff and, you know, Mr. Beals, where or bowls, I'm not sure how you pronounce it. The the the marriage of YGM and JLT, you know, Ingve and Joe Linterna. There was something magical about that is the voice fitted. Yeah, the voice fitted really well. You know, Heaven Tonight was a hit. But you've got some you've got songs like Deja Vu. You've got songs like Dreaming, Tell Me, then Crystal Ball, which starts mellow, goes heavy. Then you've got, you know, opened with Bite the Bullet, which was pretty heavy and fast. That's a song that can definitely be on trilogy. And then then Krakatoa talk about brilliant instrumentals. That's another one. So I really enjoy that that album to me. Well, you froze up a little bit, Nick. You're back. So I purchased this on August 20th, 1988. So it must have been right around the time it came out. It came out April 8th, 1988. I mean, maybe in Canada was a little delayed. You never know how these things work, but the official launch date was. And the title track Rising Force. That's a that's a heavy, heavy song. No, it is. I mean, that's that's. And that's one of the things I think so great about the. Like for me, you know, when when you guys asked me like to like to do this, I did a recap. So when I realized it was all on Tricking Cassette, I wanted to get I've been meaning to get this this sort of political years thing anyway, like your ships are burning. And the biggest content I can give. That era of of Inge is I just let I just let the whole thing roll through. I did. There was no track to maybe want to go. I want to skip this. Right, right. Well, it all fitted really well. And I was pleasantly surprised because I was expecting some moments of the others to one. The only time I jumped was to go back and listen again. Right. Another good point. That's a really good point. That's a great point. But they're very well put together records of, you know, those albums flow really well. And as, you know, as as you correctly pointed out, the first album was more of a side project. And then it grew into this. And what a career, man. And a great sounding album, a Jeff Glicksman that produced it, engineered by Steve Thompson and Mike Barbiero, who went on to do Tesla. Just the great sounding album. And reading Bob Dasey, our friend Bob Dasey plays on a couple of tracks, too. So everybody's favorite bassist. But Dasey came in who's no slouch. But there's something about the the Joe Linterna, Ingwe. Marriage was fitted really well. And but the great thing is, once again, like this, this. He managed to he managed to walk that fine line between commercialism and keeping the keeping the guitar hero fans happy as well. But not selling out like there's still that near there's a heavy neoclassical influence. And some of that stuff, it just like forget the solo. Some of those riffs are hard to play to play as well as he plays them. That's such a good point. Yeah, memory is the last instrumental. I mean, it's a great, perfect blend again of classical keyboards, metal sounding and just shredding is all part of it. It's a great way to end the album. He accomplished what Dream Theater is always trying to accomplish. Somewhere between technical and melody and just sort of fusing them together where anyone could listen to like your wife, who just like, you know, melodic music. Yeah, or somebody who's really technical and loves the skill portion of it. You can listen to it and you'll hear different things. And the thing about the thing I like about like like when he gets technical, it's never at the expense of the musicality. Yeah, exactly. That's a good. Yeah, that's right. Means that the that the person who doesn't give a damn about. Well, that was in 1716 and use this this this arabic scale from mixed with a Japanese scale and it doesn't sound like music, but it's really impressive technically because it's hexatonic or whatever. Yeah, it's he doesn't go that route. It's not it's like it's not he never went. But one for better word, he's not mad. Ingve never did anything even vaguely equated to math rock. I like math rock. And and reading Bob Daisley's thoughts and his remembrance on on this album. It was right at a time. He said it was a little hard to get started because Yngwie had wrapped his jaguar around a tree or something at the time. And he was almost he mentioned in his book that he was actually in a coma. Yeah, he was in a coma. I think that he hurt his hand, but he managed to pull out of it because even if you fast forward to his album today, his last album, the speed is still there. The technique is still there. The melody is still there. He's still chugging along. Like you said, he, you know, he he's relentless. He's relentless. Yeah. And he's and he's doing it. I love it because he's doing it on his terms. Yeah. And he's still Ingve J. Malmston. You got to have that, J. You got to have that, J. Highest Charning album or Ingve's highest Charning album in, I guess, in the U.S., we'll say. But I think he did well everywhere with this record, I think. It's a perfect album for 1988, I find. Yes, I would agree. Yeah. All right, guys, now that we've kind of like went through all the albums, how would we rank them just for fun? And we'll all take turns. I guess we'll start off with Alan. We'll leave what we'll do is for suspense. I'll go to the Bible and I'll tell you how they rank in the Bible. I was surprised. There's a I was very surprised by the ranking in the Martin Pop-Up Stop 500. So and then we will go to what the people are who are watching, how they would rank them, because I did a little poll right on YouTube right before we started. And I can see how they're ranking that way. But let's listen to what Alan has to say first. And then we'll turn to Nick. Well, for me, for me, trilogy was a game changer. It was something that was much more mature, like I said, the instrumental crying. You can hear the soulfulness. It wasn't just all about speed. They coaxed the guitar playing. Unbelievable for me. So I would rate that number one. I think, you know, marching out is this one that everybody kind of latched on to right away because it was the way he was playing. And it was, you know, full songs. It wasn't just instrumental like the first album. Odyssey was perfect for its time. I loved every song on that. I think I would say Odyssey would actually be number two in March. Yeah, it would be number three. And then the first one for me, I got it. I got that's actually the last Balmsteam album I purchased. It might be his first album was actually the last one I purchased. And it was a great list. And I'm glad I went back. It was a lot better than I remember it. The production, like I said, still I still have struggle with. But overall, the playing and the roots of everything that follows is right there on that first album. So you're saying Rising Force one because I'm confused. You can't really get number one is Trilogy, Odyssey, marching out and then Rising Force for me, first one. Trilogy. That's a big one. You know that when you look at when you go online and you look at the fan favorites, the sort of the ranking of all the albums, Trilogy seems to always be like number one or number two. So it really is a fan favorite. Nick, let's go to the let's go to Yoda right now. The Yoda of all guitars, all things metal and guitars. Might more like Yogi Bear. It's a tough one because like the I have a rising force had such a huge impact on me because it because I got that when it you know, once once my friend played me that plastic disc, I went and bought it and it was a huge game changer. Like, you know, as good as the other records are, Rising Force has it was just a kind of like Van Halen one Van Halen ones. My favorite Van Halen album is number four. Yeah, like fair warning. And it's and it's but and it's a very close. It's a very it's it's winning by a by a by literally a neck. But Van Halen one was the one that impacted me most. So in terms of impact on me, I would have to say Rising Force. I would choose I would put number as number one just because of the in just because of the I remember where I was when I heard that damn Black Star song. What was your put as number two? I would put as number two trilogy. Look at that number three. I'd like to preface all this by saying if there's a finish line, all four records would be they would be in a straight. The air that we don't have. I got it. Don't worry. There's no freaking like there's no guy coming around the last bend. Like they're all right there. And I probably put honestly, just because there's something about the part of me and I hate to say this because it's because I think Mark Bowles is the singer is great. I would have loved to have heard because if you listen to the what's what was the live album called? There was a live album that came out right after that right after and had Joel Interner on it. Yeah, it's called Trial by Fire live in Leningrad. And it really is the best of the first four records. Yeah, I remember that album. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's it's it's got the all the tracks we've mentioned are actually on that on that record. But Joel, in turn, is singing that stuff. Yeah, I don't mean wishes he was on trilogy as well, just because for my personal years, there's something about his voice with Inve and then I then I put marching out as the very close number four by hair by hair. All these are by hair. Yeah, yeah. These are just his first four albums when I even talk about his old catalog here. Right. So this is the rising force here, as we'll call it. For me, I got to tell you, I listen to all all today like you did, Nick. I don't know if you listen to them all today. Just one after one after the other and I had a hard time. I really had a hard time with Odyssey marching out in trilogy. I just I just OK, this is my favorite. No, no, this is my favorite. No, no, that's my favorite. I kept switching back and forth. But I would say there's something magical about Inve and Joel and Turner. Yeah, it's sort of he was trying to get there and he got there finally. So I would put that as my number one. I don't disagree with that. Yeah, he got there. He finally got to the point where he's mixing organic with technique and heart and soul at the same time. And songwriting and songwriting. Yeah, and then marching out because I just love the power vocals of Jeff Scott Soto. And I think there and marching out is what you said, Nick. It's a heavy album and I kind of like that. He was more of the Iron Maiden and deal over there instead of the docking. So I kind of like that trilogy. I think is one of the most underrated Malmsteen albums out there. Way high up. I put it as my third because I think, again, it's it's similar to Odyssey. Maybe one step below, but very close and Rising Force. I'm not a guitarist, right? So it's hard for me to sit there and listen to all the songs when there's no vocals. Yeah. But I can respect it for what it is, sort of a game changer. That's it. We'll go to OK. So this. OK, go to pop off. Then I'll go to every metal albums we've got here. This was voted by the fans. OK, so. Trilogy comes in a number two hundred and ninety three out of the top five hundred marching out at two number two forty five. And the highest ranking Malmsteen album on there goes back to exactly what Nick said, Rising Force comes in at number one oh one out of the top five hundred. So that that shows the influence that he that album had on a lot of people, especially guitarists. So yeah. OK, now I'm going to go to the live poll and things off. At the number one spot at thirty five percent is Rising Force. See that that proves it. Yeah, it's a game changer, right? I guess it's just a number two would be Trilogy, which is a shocker in itself. Right. Trilogy. It's just this love for this album of the years, then marching out and then Odyssey, which is weird. But again, you know, you're talking about small percentages. Yeah. So it could depend on your mood. Like I said, mine was purely. Yes, I remember what that did. And it's what it's what. And that's the. Actually, what Malcolm, Malcolm Dome as a tribute to Malcolm, he said something at the start of this, which I think was quite profound. And see if I'm right. I love his writing. He was a great writer. Malcolm was one of was a big champion of grim reaper and a lovely guy. He said. Guitar heroes tend to be transients with the exception of the pioneering greats from Page, the Clapton and Blackmore, they usually have. I have something that a massive impact. There are too many of them. There are too many of them to have any lasting impact. But Ingve Malmsteen is a major exception to this rule. And that's well put by Malcolm, because, yeah, Malmsteen did change things in the same way. You know, Eddie. Clap, you know, like the like the big four from the, you know, the Clapton, your pages, your becs, that Enric's fellow. Yeah. Then, you know, Mr. Van Halen and Randy. And then there was a bunch of other great ones in the 80s as well that I love. And then then Malmsteen comes along and blows the doors in a different direction. Who would you say is the future of guitar? That's that's the question that I'm I'm I'm hoping I'll find that person tomorrow. OK. All right. There's no because there's no because the thing that the thing that gets the thing that I find fascinating about all the people I've just mentioned. It wasn't just the playing. It was them as people, them as artists. It's not just about how many notes like like Dimebag Darrell, for example, one of the most beloved human beings to have ever picked up a guitar. The same with Van Halen, it was that smile. There was some they weren't just they weren't just great players. They were great performers. They were great entertainers. They were that all of those guys were the whole enchilada, I guess. You know, look at Jeff Beck. He was still going 70 something remark. Yeah. And I don't it's a different world now, unfortunately. There are lots of great players. I've heard lots of great players, but the guys that move me, maybe it's because I'm a whole, you know, I haven't heard a new. I haven't heard an hour holds with you. I haven't heard a new Eddie. I haven't heard a new Dime yet. I've heard really good players, but I haven't heard someone that made that makes me go, holy shit. What was that? Time to rethink. Or maybe everything's been done, right? I mean, it just, you know, how many notes are there and there's how many scales and there's just how many ways you can do something. Well, you know, I'm I'm the eternal optimist, so I'm hoping that that person has just been the hardest now is it's, you know, with like YouTube and the YouTube and Instagram and Tik Tok and it's it's becoming in this is nice, wasn't it? Which is one of Lemmy's great sayings. Like the OCD, like the OCD, the OCD that's out there and the attention spans and people's desire to like to watch something for more than 15 seconds. I mean, I listened to Inve Moustine for however long those four albums are back to back today and I listened to the live record and there was no urge, the only urge I got to touch a button was to go back and listen to a track again, not to jump one and that's a testament to like his legacy really. Yeah, I think we're at a very disposable world, right? Where the internet and the Tik Toks just, you know, it just it's in and out in and out in and out where in the olden days we used to look at the back of an album cover and just imagine who this person was and this mystique and you'd be happy if you read one article about, you know, that player or that band and, you know, in Krang or whatever magazine it was and it was just a joy just to really read it again. There's very little information. It was all a mystique and when you got to see them, well, you never meet them. That would be another thing altogether, right? There was no meet and greets. It was just if you happen to, you know, hang out backstage somewhere and you're lucky enough to know the security guard, then you'll get to meet them, right? So things are changing, but I agree with you. Some there is a real, you know, new, unique guitars being born right now and he'll change the face of, you know, music. I'm just waiting for I'm just like I'm looking forward to it because it's because it's overdue, to be honest with you. Yeah, I would say the last in the hard rock realm to me, the last great guitar hero. And if you do the math, you'll probably agree with me. The last significant guitar hero was Dimeback. Yeah, it was a while ago, too. Yeah, it's because he was the only guy to emerge in the 90s. Everyone else people. Well, what about Zach Wilde, 87? What about Kurt Heimann, 84? What about what about what about what about 80 something slash 87? Yeah, John, John, five, maybe. John, five, but he's like our age, too. Like five's been around forever, man. Yeah, yeah. John's been John's John's an old school guy now. I got him out of David Lee Roth album downstairs. Yeah, he was with David Lee Roth. He was with Mr. Halford. Yeah, he's been he was on Baywatch for Christ's sake. Tom Morello was in the late 80s, right? Yeah, the rage against the machine. We're overdue. We're overdue. He's been born right now. Or she or, you know, then Neeta Strauss, right? She's out there. Leaders that Neeta, leader, leader, leader and leader. Yeah, they always get those two confused. But yeah, but yeah, brilliant. But yeah. But like a Malmsteen level player. You know, we're talking game changer. Yeah, she's she's great. You're right. She she didn't. It is amazing. Like, you know what? The one thing I hate about people who met Neeta. She's a great female guitar player. No, she's a great guitar player period. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. We're so past that nothing to do with that crap. You know, I tell you, I tell you who I really like. Voivod, Chewie and Voivod. I think if you ever heard of Chewie and Voivod, yeah, yeah. Of course, yeah. His tone, his style, he's trained. He's just he's incredible. He's just to me, that's probably one of my favorite guitarists in this era. We'll call it, you know, right? No, that interview I found a Malmsteen. It's funny because you just mentioned his name. He said the closest guy that came to playing like a violinist was Alan Holtzworth in that interview that a Malmsteen gave years ago. And Holtz, Holtzworth was Eddie Van Halen's favorite guitar player. And if you've ever heard him play, you'd know why, because it's just unbelievable. Unstaggering, staggering and a funny man, too. And you got Orianthi, another great guitar player. Yeah. But then again, she's from the Alice Cooper camp, right? Yes, which has been a while. She's she's she's again, she's been around, right? She's not. Oh, a Kira Takasaki. But again, he's from the 80s. He's a Kira Takasaki. That's Alan's favorite guitarist there right there. This is Tony Iomi. Although that's something. Oh, yeah, Tony Iomi, that guy. What's his name, Tony? Angus, someone from. Yeah, yeah. Like it moved to Australia. I mean, that's one of the one of the things that. Because, you know, it might be my it might be my get off my lawn statement, but it's I'm I'm really thankful. I'm my age because I witness things that will never happen again while they happened. Yeah, I was lucky enough to witness Ben Halen. I was lucky enough to witness Randy Rhodes. We were lucky enough. The dime bags, the Zach Wilds, all of these people that came out and just blew our doors off slash Yada Yada Yada. And now it's sort of like to me, the thrill of the. What was that great motorhead song? Chase is there. The chase is better than the cat and the the chase has been destroyed by the internet. No, it has. There's no sense of discovery and achievement. Yeah, going out there and finding something because you had to work on it. You didn't just go. Oh, TikTok, show me this call. My new favorite band is and then. But but but YouTube is also done. It's sort of up the game in sort of technique because now because back in our day, you had to put a record on it to bring it back and put how did you do that? OK, let's see. OK, let me. What was that line? Now you have actually tutorials on YouTube teaching singers how to sing, guitars how to play, bassist how to play, drummers how to play. You have this information that nobody had at their fingertips. And now you could be a YouTube, you know, a student, a student of YouTube. And, you know, you could be a plumber, actually, from YouTube, or you could do anything you want from you. So it's up the game and sort of technique, but the heart and soul is not there. But I think it's it's it's up the technique. It's dumb. The. It's dumb. To me, it's nullified the satisfaction of working of, you know, we still kill the most like great someone or something. We still kill the old old way. It's still I encourage my students to try and learn something just by listening to it. Yes. Don't go to the songstrum. Look at don't look at someone else's interpretation. If you're going to watch anyone play it, watch the artist you're trying to emulate. If you want to learn a Metallica song, find video of Metallica playing it, not some hack like me playing it. And use your ears. Use your goddamned ears. Yes. Yes. You're too humble because your guitar playing and rock you to hell and then the rest of Grim Reaper albums is unbelievable. Like I still got opening wasted level of intro is still ripping my head off to this day. So. Oh, well, thank you, etch. And one thing I should and I'm trying to think what song it's from. It might be from. Hold on. Let's see. What song do I steal it from? What song that I steal it from? No, there was there was there's a tiny little this I used a little sec idea. There's a tiny section in the. In the in the our lust for freedom solo, which I took, which was a straight lift in a different. It was like two bars. I took it from us as above us, but so below. I took that from Rising Force. I took it from the album. It's OK. Ingvi stole from you, too. And he lifted from you. Don't worry about it. It's a brilliant hapegio. There you go. Well, I know it's a lot of fun. Yeah, Nick, Nick, it's been a pleasure. And you know, we miss Steve, we miss Steve. You know, it's it's still shocking that he's gone. But it's music and your music with him. You know, we'll live on. Well, thank you, sir. And thank you for doing what you guys do, too. Because that was a lot of fun. Yeah, I'm glad you're feeling better. He's glad we're able to do it today. So yeah, so and to my Canadian friends listening to this, if Ingvi is within 50 miles of your house doing a master class, do so, please. If you like guitar playing, go watch the man. Fifty kilometers. Yeah, kilometers. Yeah. But but but in the UK, isn't it kilometers? Well, you're not in the UK. You're in the States. So forget about that. Yeah, forget about it. March the eighth, Quebec City, March 9th, Montreal, March 10th, the brass monkey in Ottawa and March 11th, the rock pile in Toronto. Nick, thank you so much. We'd love to have you on again. Yeah, we're done with friends. Thanks, buddies.