 Yeah, recording started fantastic. Thank you. Okay, so thank you very much to everyone who's here. We have what looks like Maybe yeah over 10 people. So that's fantastic Before we get started, I just wanted to Switch to gallery mode excellent one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven people super so just as a quick Aspect of shopkeeping you've probably seen the notes online already But last time when we met in the other time slot, which presumably is more beneficial to West Coast and Asian and African members of the group We touched upon our discussion of Clubhouse and whether that's going to be useful to us Heidi Heidi peace is she here today? No, she can't make it But Heidi I know quite well because we've organized events at UCLA before but we're going to investigate that and set up some conversations on Clubhouse which is designed more for A transient signal rather than something that you would might want to record and say for later So that might be a useful promotional tool We also talked a lot about audio NFTs, which I want to get into more today We All of this is in the recording if you want to see it we discussed the complications of NFT licensing Which was certainly an involved Topic and lastly whether or not NFTs might be permitted within what we call the closed gardens of streaming services So our current streaming services set up to deal with something that What what is what is presumed or perceived to be something of a legal complexity I Notice that even breakfast television Had audio NFT or not even audio but NFT stories this morning Somebody said to me they saw on breakfast television. I wasn't quite sure what they meant an NFT story I see that CNBC had a story this morning about NFTs, but it was all to do with visual art There wasn't any discussion in there of Audio has anybody if you saw Heidi is there where's Heidi? I'm here. Oh, you're there. You've appeared or you're one of the One of the anonymous black avatars. Did you see the same story? The one that was I know I didn't see that but I have definitely been eyeballed deep in the The NFT space lately. So I can't keep up and now Taco Bell has What what's the Taco Bell NFT? Oh My goodness there. I think they're the first brand maybe somebody in the group correct me if I'm wrong They're the first brand to create an NFT and and they have several of them Um, they're visual renditions of their tacos That's awesome And then whoever the the funds go to their non-profit that they have which I Think I want to say it provides scholarships or something to But I can see this as being the beginning of many Of an avalanche of brands coming into the space Brendan I see behind you Panini sticker. I don't know. Do you guys have Panini stickers in the in the states or not? We do although in the states were mostly known for our trading cards Right, and I know that that's that I've already seen some discussion If that was quite early discussion of NFTs and baseball trading cards, right because of the high rate of forgery That's right. So we're we're doing it. We're we're selling digital only products We're calling them NFTs. They're on a private panini blockchain, which is a hopper ledger sawtooth instance We've enjoyed a lot of success in our first year of operation And we're really excited to see the mass adoption accelerating adoption of the the NFTs I have been working For a few years with uh, Sebastian post here on this call Thank you, Sebastian for the introduction and getting me involved here so panini for those of you don't know is a I guess about a three billion euro global company that is the leader in sticker albums and trading cards and so we make collectibles and managing scarcity and all the benefits of it nft and the that technology confers a lot of benefits to A collectible where scarcity is the game scarcity is what we we have to depend and so But connected with that. I'm looking at everything and evaluating across the I have a very comprehensive view of the space and the a lot of the path dependencies for digital collectibles in general and creator platforms as well So really excited to be connected with this group and excited to to see what we can do together Yeah, I am obviously having grown up in the uk. I know panini from from players, right? So you collect sure you buy a little packet you open it up and inside of Is a small number of stickers from any number of teams any number of players and sooner or later You start to get duplicates So you start to swap them and then you stick them all in a in an album And then the album becomes something of hopefully collectible worth in the future So I can see how the parallels with baseball cards are enormous Did you want to tell us how because obviously a lot of these a lot of this infrastructure could be applicable to the other audio or let's say visual Projects that we're hopefully going to engender very soon. But what can you tell us about the actual panini blockchain? Well, so it's a hyper ledger sawtooth instance We've got to set up in a dual node configuration we're using the apis to construct an issue and to mint We're not really making use of the smart contract infrastructure, although we certainly can We chose sawtooth because we saw it as a really great platform to federate Consortium and we still have that as part of our roadmap, you know, we're gaining our own technical understanding of what's possible with the technology and maybe as important the custody of items and As a mass market company, you know having Bear instruments in a wallet where if a user loses their keys That that's catastrophic in, you know, the conventional world now Obviously, there's a lot of new wallet technologies and that you know with social recovery and different ring signatures and that sort of thing, but Those two aspects are what really led us towards hyper ledger sawtooth I'm a non-technical executive that reads all the white papers. So I'm not going to be able to talk about much more about our Implementation I've got a team of people that Have built that out and so far it's scaled and done everything that we needed to do and it we stood it up really fast We've been really pleased with it and we're looking forward to pulling in some other people, you know some some other companies and Having a consortium around that. We don't have any dates around that yet, but it's something that's A really important possibility around what we're what we're building What led you to the choice of sawtooth for a media project like this? um So we were looking at um And we're glad we didn't choose them. Uh loom network. I guess is going through a recovery. Maddox was out there It just it felt like from our standpoint Having the the foundation and the open source And a lot of enterprises using the platform those those were pretty compelling for us Uh, we weren't when we looked at it and we looked at the decentralized technology And by the way, I'm all in on the decentralized stack. I'm really excited about it and want to embody all the the Values that you know that are wrapped up in DID and and decentralized systems But representing a 120 year old category with a 60 year old brand, which is panini We felt like we really needed Something that was a little more tested that we had more control over And that started shrinking the decision space pretty quickly And there were a lot of third party vendors that could have um That that wanted us to take a look at them, but I basically landed on uh hopper ledger because of the um The foundation and the community that that it came from Did your choice have anything to do with um Let's say the The earlier choice by verify media to choose sawtooth Does that ring a bell that company? Verify media. No, I don't think so Mm-hmm it just if if you look at the earliest um promotional materials from from hyper ledger one of the things they say they hope they can do is work with music attribution and they point to a joint uk us venture called dot blockchain media That has come and gone But a lot of the guys who have worked for that now work for a company called verify media v er if I And as far as I know, they're the only people working with sawtooth on a media related Project unless somebody wants to correct me on that does anybody know Anything That's more up to date or more correct No, I'm not Okay, well David's there. Oh, David's jumped on. He doesn't okay. So maybe I'm right. So yeah, that's the other big Sawtooth media project that comes to mind Um, what about your collaboration with Sebastian here? Well, where did you guys find common ground? Well, I can I can handle that Sebastian if you like, um So Yeah, so, um Sebastian reached out to us. I believe or we found each other somehow. I don't remember how but we um In our space there are We're creating these we create 300 plus thousand unique Um Trading cards a year now that these are designs. Well, there's actually about maybe four billion physical cards are created, but these These designs, uh, they can be worth Uh, a lot of money and the the the overall category people that don't know the trading card category We're selling cards that are worth Um millions of dollars, okay in the aftermarket within maybe when they're pulled from a pack um And the overall market just recently Was uh, recognized as being as part of the luxury good category and again, it's because the overall demand there's this ongoing financialization Of our product where people are looking at as a viable inflation resistant Um real alternative real alternative investment. It's a property. It's a new investment class And so because of this, um, we're seeing people Take images false images and they're putting them up on ebay and they're selling fake cards and they're pilfering and stealing and and Uh, you know very much like the the rest of the um, uh Uh luxury good category has experienced, you know, when the when the the values get high enough It gets really profitable to come in and knock it off and so uh the Sebastian with it with the iscc and and then with lyssium gives us a whole new level of um identification that we can use um to actually track and um, give our consumers some chance of actually um Validating what they're looking at that it actually originated from panini um And so that and that's really really valuable for us now. There's a lot of different uh physical authentication technologies that we can use Like diamond dust and high resolution photographs and that sort of thing but They don't solve uh our ebay problem. They don't start sort of solve our aftermarket problem They don't solve, um The The other abuses that happen with our property and because we're using the officially License marks and logos of all the top licensors in the world like fifa and nfl and nba contractually we're obligated to use You know the the the best available technologies and to Take care of their property. Okay, so our car when we make our cards We own them, but they also have an interest in them and So there's a convergence of market forces protection of our Of our graphical assets Of our files. I mean, we've got a back catalog that runs to many many decades And you know if that gets out and we it's really important for us to be able to make a public claim um and and to be able to um Verify that yes, we had ownership and possession of a particular asset You know so that we can defend it in in the marketplace Not just legally but just to represent to others that we're actually being good stewards of the of the property So that that's a yeah go on I mean just uh Mentioning again that the iscc originated from this challenge to to manage a huge amount of content or assets digital assets and to to have identifiers for for assets that Have not um or where traditional identifiers like isb ends or dois or Isr c's for From for music where they have not been applied and so That that's that's one thing and to have a identifier to generate or to come up with an identifier standard that is able to handle The fact that through the internet online digital media is being transformed compressed converted to to other file formats and still retain some some kind of similarity and that at scale and another point is to have these Identifiers being able to be used on blockchains and in decentralized environments where anyone can regenerate And come to the same ID in order to to transact even if you don't have any kind of relationship That that is for me One of the most important points that in traditional media business you would manually manage identifiers and then Try to get an to come to an agreement with the third party or with the other party about the content and the term that was uh Seeing what what will come in the web 3.0 way This has been the Origin of of the icc and and panini is of course, uh, one of the the The media companies with them I would say probably the most digital of physical assets in in terms of the the sheer volume of of of assets so Jerome you had um Some observations about the ways that this might help us plus you had a question about french soccer Yes, um, I've been asked to to watch some uh solutions that appear In france. So this is these are my students who asked me to to check what is the nft in the concept of The equivalent of panini cards in france and I've started Deep diving as all this solution was working. So it's based on the serials. There is one smart contract that is used to generate some some some nft and cards and As far as I understand They are given a token ID. So I don't really understand very well how it works now So I would be interested to see If there are some alternatives with ip allegers. So too, maybe without any smart contract I don't know. So if brandon has some Some technical information To to share with us. I would be very interested. Thank you This speaks to one thing I was going to share that we can always schedule a presentation if we want to You know give space in a meeting and then you know, you could present and do a demo You're welcome to do that now, but if we schedule in advance too We can also promote it out on hyperledger's channels and get more of an audience for this too If we wanted to do it at a future meeting So, you know, we haven't we as a group haven't had guest speakers yet But that's something that other special interest groups in the community have done if there's interest in that Is that something is there something brendan that you guys might do is there's something you can share with us Whether it's text or Yeah, for sure. Now, I'd be happy to walk everyone through the panini blockchain cards and the nfts and I can could give a demonstration And and you could see it. It's Very accessible. I'm always happy to talk about what else is happening in the space And we could cover that what's happening at so rare They've enjoyed a lot of success. They just raised 50 million dollars to go grab more licenses and You know, they're enjoying a lot of success There's a lot of questions that whether A fantasy card is really a collectible. I have a lot of questions about the technical and legal construction of Just about everything in the nft space There's a lot of issues around them that make me think that they don't belong in the collectible category And I think it's definitely something Conceptually that this group needs to when we talk about nfts there's kind of a taxonomy of Of those and we need to be clear on them everyone's in because this is emerged so quickly We're playing really fast and loose with the language and what is an nft to me is not an nft to you I have nfts in my wallet that I bought early in the space about two years ago And now I have nothing I have a token but the underlying assets and the project got taken down I've got nothing there's nothing to show for it and no recourse and well, that's it and Frankly, that's the exact same thing you get with top shot And I haven't done the deep dive on so rare, but I've got concerns about it But anyway, we've got there's a lot to cover and be happy to do to have a a special section and kind of Present on what we're doing and how we're seeing it. Well, that's great Maybe maybe David and I can take this offline and figure out what works with your calendar Do you do you want to drop your email address and chat and then David and I will Yeah, for sure. Yeah um Heidi is our sort of unofficial in-house nft detective What's your what's your view of the last week been? Well, I personally and I agree with what you were saying Brendan is that that my definition of an nft is very different than The person down the down the road and and I think that we're headed for a the bubble bursting My personal opinion Just because as I've been exploring these different platforms, there are hundreds of thousands of Right now visual artists Trying to create and sell their nfts on this platform and it's really there's a lot of noise and The demand is exceeding or the supply is demand is exceeding the the demand so Um, unfortunately my opinion is I think we're going to see the bubble burst like we did with ICOs um, but the bigger opportunity is for the Non blockchain non crypto community because right now really the most activity has been with the with crypto holders And I think that this now makes people better understand who are not in blockchain better understand Oh, here are some actual use cases. So Um, once the bubble burst in the crypto community, I personally believe that we are headed for tremendous opportunities It not just with visual artists, but I personally think there's even more opportunity for That for musicians and I've been peened left and right by um talent agencies um venue uh people that own venues for musical concerts as well as A musical rights companies that have been peening me the past two weeks wanting to get into this space so I think Um, and and I can share with you some of the ideas that they've been presenting to me if you'd like Yeah, please go okay, so Um, obviously we have the utility on one side of an nft is the collectible aspect of it and Hopefully reselling it on the secondary market on the other side where we're seeing so so yes So we're seeing like the kings of leon and they've launched their music Hope hoping that that um some of the items that they've launched as an nft will become a collectible And you can sell it on the secondary market But what a lot of these talent agents are saying Is we're looking at an nft that has a lower price point that would really be used more as a key A key to engage fans like we've never seen before So that would be things like um, I'm buying, you know, Heidi band nft key and that means I can engage with With Heidi the band I can maybe attend a zoom lunch Or it gives me access to a concert down the road in the future When I'm at the live venue, perhaps the band air drops a release of their new song That hasn't been made public yet. Perhaps it gives them VIP back stage passes Sometimes it could be used for things like special photographers at the actual concert Maybe they issue an original photo that's given out to the nft holders So the thought is really oh and then of course throwing brands And product promotion and how money can be used Money can be generated and monetized from the brands So that's really the buzz that I'm hearing right now is this shift A little bit away from the memorabilia, which I think will be there for the long term But it's how do we get fan engagement? Um, and then obviously royalties Which that's a whole nother discussion as well that I'm sure john, you know about much better than I do I I think I'm right in saying that those Kings of leon nfts, they include a ticket for lifetime. Is that right? So if that's correct then From the fans point of view, that's obviously the longer term benefit. You've got the collectible, but You know for then month after month year after year what what you're interested in is fan engagement From you know, the fans point of view. Eric, you just put up a link. Would you like to contextualize that? Right just talking about the fan engagement. There's a company out there called socios And that is their their sort of focuses is doing partnerships with sporting teams, mostly soccer clubs or football clubs And issuing these tokens that allow the fans to be engaged So they're not actually issuing anything behind those any sort of meteor assets That are attached to those tokens as far as I know, but just sort of following on the The opportunity for fan engagement Do you have a sense of The two key points which are how much they cost and what does somebody get? Yeah, so I so as far as I know they They'll they'll do a deal with the club and and sort of determine how many tokens do you want to issue and figure out According to their fan base and you know that The fan, uh, sorry the clubs will use those as part of their marketing efforts and either give give them a way as Promotionals or allow fans to buy tokens and then with the tokens you get access to voting on you know, half-time performers or You know player appearances and things like that So it just it just made me think of that. I've talked to them a little bit last year So I'll kind of follow up and see if they're into NFTs, but it's it's not so much music or or media But I just want to throw that out there It certainly could be something that a that a musician or a musical collective could use or a venue could use right in terms of Guaranteeing long-term interest between the fan in question and the band or the venue in question Right. Yeah, so it's more about giving access rather than owning anything Sort of like voting rights Heidi yeah, Eric. I I the I worked with the startup or I met with the startup from two years ago that they had purchased I want to say was indoor arena football here in the states. I think that the first Team that they purchased or worked with was out of salt lake city and they were using blockchain for fans to vote on Things like does the quarterback throw the ball deep or do they pass the ball? and they were using blockchain because The last thing in the world that they ever wanted was to be accused that they manipulated the vote in any way because fans would Go insane. So, um, I think that they're also doing something similar to the socio space and But very interesting It's funny you mentioned that one thing I've always wanted to see is a decentralized soccer team. So no manager But if the fans could actually pick the team decide who gets substituted So it was real time But then obviously like you were saying what you would need is some indication that the vote wasn't being skewed or just, you know, grossly manipulated by More powerful parties. So I would totally invest in that if I had the opportunity to physically Pull off the crap players and put on the good ones. That'd be really great But Heidi, yeah, you were saying you were sort of in the middle of your Uh report Oh, yep. So I guess that um more back to the issues of the nfts that we see Happening right now, which have been for the visual digital artists The biggest challenge that I'm hearing um is the cost of gas Um, which has really been prohibitive for most of these artists entering. Well, I guess I should say number one The biggest uh barrier to entry is the technical understanding downloading a metamask onto your computer buying ether That it's it's it's a huge barrier of entry for many many artists and And then second is the gas fees that I've been hearing, you know, range anywhere from 70 to sometimes $200 and so That's been a problem in the space and the other on the other side Where people are the the patrons are also they have to Own ether or crypto. I think that there are only two sites that I'm aware of That are at least have enough traction behind them that are accepting credit card um So like I mentioned, oh, and that doesn't include the NBA top shots But so for the most part, I think that the community we see right now. They are crypto holders um and one A couple of items that I don't think have been fully addressed and that I'm I'm I'm worried about is well, what happens when somebody attacks some of these The custody of these nfts and steals the nft Also, what happens if somebody imposes as one of these artists like somebody comes in and as an imposter to people um The other we have not seen I haven't personally seen on any of these platforms tax Taxes applied on so I you know, I don't know what that means And then we're also facing or I'm hearing a lot of issues about copyright infringement and so in particular in one of the groups that I'm part of somebody owns some original footage of Michael Jackson's thriller video And he wants to sell this as an nft But now there are all sorts of issues around can he actually say it's Michael Jackson? Because what about the Michael Jackson estate? So there's just a lot of hurdles that I'm just waiting for something to happen that Is going to cause a you know, a lot of disruption in in a bad sense in this space Would somebody like to address that tension between All of the excitement that we're seeing on one side and the complications that Heidi mentions all the way from legal challenges to The the pure complexity of making these things in the first place I'd be interested to know whether we slide towards a more optimistic view or whether we think that in fact this is Something of a bubble that for any number of reasons might Prove Less worthy than it would like to consider it. So Well, I'm happy to jump in I've spent a lot of money on attorneys in the last year to talk about these these issues as we Step into the Digital collectibles and it's one of the reasons why I've been reading so many terms and conditions Is because I'm trying to understand How panini measures up because I've got a real strong conviction that we as as the As the adults in the room who aren't moving at startup speed You know, we're moving at enterprise speed and that means that you know we're We're behind in some ways, but we're ahead in others and in the ways we're ahead It's it's around the the legal commitment to what's happening You know, I heard the term class action lawsuit thrown around today in the community that I'm talking about because of people Representing things that were collectibles that aren't a collectible or representing that you When you enter an ecosystem, what are the commitments to actually exit the ecosystem and do you have What do you actually own and when you put your money in how do you get it out? These are all real, you know, basic simple business propositions that we gotta gotta iron out, but I think there are a lot of Vendors out there marketplaces where there it is it's really Legally it's Difficult so we had there was a company called crypto strikers that was probably the very first Stickers to if you will of FIFA stickers and this was in 2018 And crypto strikers came out and instead of they tried to skirt the copyright issue by using cartoons of the players and they had some original art used and so that they didn't have to get the The photos and the licenses around it that was challenged legally and the project was taken down Um, I know the founders I lost money on the on mind and on my Crypto collectibles and and this this this is the problem and And Heidi what you were talking about with how do you certify? um The who's actually generating the the content. How do you know that it's official content and this is where I go back to What Sebastian's doing is because you in the future you're going to have to make some public claims about Something immutable claims about what you produced what you created like here. I am the source of this thing Either as an individual or as as a as a company or as a doubt you're going to have to make those public claims Um And you and you can have if you have the keys you can prove it right other otherwise you you don't have much to stand on um The so when we look at uh, is it uh nifty? The the nifty gateway Yeah, nifty gateway. So nifty gateway Is curating their list of artists Um, but if you drill down and try to understand well, okay So they're selecting lots of inbound people representing themselves to be someone But you know, are are are they actually going up? Are they actually going to the listed address and making sure that that's not You know the the the the local, um bagel shop. I mean what What does their due diligence look like? Um, I've talked to the ci of um christie's recently and they you know, they just recently listed, um auctions And you know in They're dealing with the same issues that other large enterprises are that are trying to operate in this space. Um, which is So you have the the kyc and the aml to know your customer and anti-money laundering Uh provisions and as a business, how do you handle that if you use public payment gateways? You know, you're offloading those functions to them um some legal uh I guess insulation uh from from that kind of risk, but when you start taking uh crypto payments and you're Um, you know depending on how you want to do that Uh, there there's a lot of risk and there's a lot of open questions Among people that are really trying to get into space about what can be clawed back You know, so I got a two and a half million dollar payment from for a piece of art and I accepted crypto and it turns out that it was fraudulently obtained what how does and it's cross border Um, those are cross border payments. I mean, I mean, it's a zoo. I mean, it these are really complicated issues and as a business um You can get a lot of concentrated risk and or in a real hurry as you Step into the this this new business model with NFT collectibles. We think we're in a pretty safe spot, but But that changes really really quickly the the other thing that I wanted to mention is If you look at the terms Of service for all the major providers Um, you'll be astonished at how much technology risk you're assuming which is basically all of it You know, if if the public if your transaction Uh gets foiled or lost or has some minor extracted value Um Assault on it or whatever, you know, you can very you can you can have a filled transaction in the company that you're dealing with Because it's completely indemnified in in all the top 10 terms and conditions that I've read You accept all the technology risk all of it. It's yours and um, and so they can't guarantee a customer experience and you know If you have a filled You know five six seven eight figure transaction You know, what recourse do you have on a on a decentralized platform? Especially because you don't you can't see Um, or you may not have access to how they're executing it on the on the back end. You don't know um I guess in some cases the smart contracts are uh vetted in some cases. They're not Um, anyway, the the point is that there there's just there's a lot of risk, you know, it's still such early days but as we look at Expanding beyond just a private uh blockchain and and creating A gateway or unwrapped to the public chains Um, you know, we're stepping into that world and we have to change we have to have separate terms of service just because we can guarantee what we're in control of and We need identification from all the things that we don't control and which is Shockingly a lot There's a lot you don't control when you get out onto the the decentralized blockchain Jerome you had a quick technological question and then Sebastian's got his hand up after that You asked about uh people's chosen technology for the creation of energies, right? Yes, that's right. Just uh to to know what are the alternative solutions to erc 721 and The solution mentioned by uh brand and today So I don't know many others. So if you know many others who are very uh key, uh, please just let us know. Thank you I'm sorry. Um, Jerome, could you restate the question? I didn't follow it all Okay, so assume you you want to set up an NFT now The question is which technology uh, will you use? So the most obvious one is erc 721 by isorium and uh idea mentioned all the drawbacks of this technology in terms of code gas and so on so What are the alternative technologies that may be used? And uh, what what is done exactly with hyperadjust so to send are there other technologies? I don't know if we can do that with uh aiota or any other technologies. So thank you. Yeah So it's it's so for me. I'm looking at a lot of different solutions. Um, and You know, so panini, uh, we're we're maintained. We're we're publicly saying we're technology agnostic and um if There is one uh blockchain that that is Better we can use that and we can switch if we need to now the switching is can be tricky and so If I had to choose just one right now, I'd be really uncomfortable Because there's no obvious choices in my opinion Ethereum is strong, but the gas fees are prohibitive and uh for a lot of our products anyway at the price point We're dealing in You know, those fees are prohibitive. It's a non starter So it's not an option from the beginning If we look at the the the layer two Chains that are out there. Uh, I like everything Dark x they're using zero knowledge proofs for level Layer two solutions And I really like the the speed of execution. They've demonstrated with reddit and some other public use cases that they can handle They can mint 10,000 NFTs per second So that's strong that matters. That's that's a real breakthrough in performance They've got a computationally asymmetric zero knowledge proof of their own design That they published a couple of years ago. It's a company out of israel Um Uri Kolad needs the ceo and they're they're just it's such a modern company It's It's fantastic, but what what they're actually implementing is pretty amazing. I like other layer two solutions as well So you've got optimistic roll-ups Matic is doing this Near protocol is is another one i'm talking to the people at near regularly Um If I look at some some of the the the emergence of cross-chain technologies get me really excited because Those let me like cosmos and some others. I think polka dot is another one um The everything polka dot is doing is is looking pretty interesting to me In fact, I think I've got a call coming up with them in 15 minutes um And it's really, you know, I'm just trying to understand what's happening in the in the market, but um You know the the cross-chain is exciting because it's going to Um reduce a lot of risk for Those of us who are trying to engineer systems in the space and you know For those of us who old enough to live through some of the other Technology booms man in the early days of the internet You could pick a language or a platform and you would engineer with it and two years later It didn't matter and you know, you just you know poured 20 000 hours into it and that's it's a lot of technical debt on something That's never going to go the distance and that's that's the concern. That's what we've got to manage, but these cross-chain technologies are They hold out the promise that if we want to move or let users Move a cross-change that they'll be able to near protocols already implemented some of this Sebastian your question who you had your hand on? Yeah, it was just a Footnote to what brenton said earlier regarding the certification The necessity to to certify the I just wanted to mention that interestingly the My kings of lian offers on open sea. They have not been certified until I think last Friday, so there was on discord on the discord Channel a lot of confusion. So Why is it up there and it has a it has a mark that says now certified, but it said unverified collection And and people were getting all the attention from the rolling stone post and then We're going to open sea and it says unverified collection and that Obviously they changed it through a manual certification process and that I think is of course An interesting Inside that currently that is a manual process to to verify that actually there's a relationship between the rights holder or the Let's say the the the registrant of that offer and the the content itself and that is something where I spent the last one one and a half years on on Suggesting the the occp the open content certification protocol, which kind of allows you to connect Or to solve this attribution A problem in a way that is scalable and that does not need to rely on on a manual Process of of this certification and the second thing that also could be solved or could be it's was Necessary to discuss is the the the issue of the terms. So if you look at the current Offers, it's very hard to understand what you're actually getting and and also brent mentioned that But if you read it, even if you are experienced, you don't understand what's is it is it now the the blinking image or is it a limited edition of the cover image or is it the actual record that you get access to or is it even Whatever a ride to distribute the song or whatever you you crazy things you can you you can tokenize so and I think the Two things need to be solved one is to to find a way to associate metadata and rights management information to the asset verifiably And Could import the metadata in a in a in a so more or less standardized Way that would support the market in in my understanding to to be a bit more To have more standards also in regards of metadata and and rights management Information so that it's clear what you what you are actually purchasing in uh In a similar way one of the other car. I just put a link up in the chat one of the other complications or problems. I saw who was With the the young blockchain music startup audience or audience depending on how you want to pronounce it And the problem that they presumed or they discovered that the work of other people was being uploaded to it And once it's up there, how do you take it down? How do you remove it? So that kind of goes back to what Heidi was saying earlier Which is that on a lot of these platforms, whether they're actually Generating or aggregating or even selling the content There is not only well, it's all part of the supply and demand question Which is that if the supply becomes too great then actually filtering or editing or Policing the content becomes very very difficult and I see that in two places One would be with what audiences is going through which is stuff is just being so enthusiastically uploaded that includes Things that legally should not be there and secondly Maybe I'm just being a bit of a snob, but if you look at the content Especially of a lot of the visual artwork that's being turned into nfts on a lot of these platforms It's pretty horrible It's the kind of stuff that you would you would have seen air painted on the side of a van about you know 30 years ago So there's the assumption that just because it's an nft. It's fantastic investment You know if we're talking about something you might want to hang on your wall or pass on to your grandchildren There's not much there that would interest me the one place where I think there might be a tipping point is that I've mentioned the getty before but ucli is very close to the getty museum, right? Which is one of the wealthiest museums in the world? And I can't remember how much of this story I've told before but one of the things that they're considering Is whether or not they want to put some of their high resolution Digital or digitized photography on the blockchain Um, because they lend out a lot of these super high images either to Smaller regional museums where the resolution is so good You can actually display it on a wall and people might come but also to Students and scholars who might want to blow the thing up and actually look at the The artwork with greater resolution or greater greater magnification Then you would be able to do in a physical museum where if you push your nose against the van goff They'll probably rugby tackle you to the ground um, so I mean, this is I mean, this is an incredible time that we're living through but As brendan was saying if you happen to invest thousands of hours or millions of dollars in one of these entities right now There are a large number of Horror stories, which aren't being promoted or not horror stories the sort of um Reservations that maybe should be promoted with equal volume um to the the the positive or um slightly over enthusiastic material that we're seeing on on breakfast television But the idea brendan what you were saying about cross-chain technology is something that I mean, I would love to hear I see already for those of you who have your email on as well I see already that david has sent out an invitation to you to your guides Maybe together with sabastian where you can talk about the way that you've collaborated thus far Um, because certainly what you've done with you know with images in essence, right? is directly applicable to a lot of the assets that That we'll be talking about. I mean can anybody maybe just as a final thought what other um Bells and whistles of people seen embedded in or attached to the nft specifically audio that would make it Interesting over and above its inherent worth as a collectible. I mean, I mentioned lifetime concert tickets Um, eric mentioned access has anybody seen anything else that struck them as particularly interesting What would make her an audio file? um Appealing if you did have qualms about its long-term worth as a as an investment Artwork is one thing I've seen so Rare artwork your eric your hand went up first well, yeah, that's one thing that I've noticed is that the It's it's easy to attach a visual to the audio To make it more appealing and make it more sort of dynamic In in a way. I was somebody had sent a link for this For a Sort of DAP conference or a dowel conference or something And I was watching one of the videos on youtube and the way that they The way that these guys who are in the nft space look at traditional art They just think it's flat. It just sits there it hangs on your wall You can't do anything with it and they want to be able to turn it around and die and have it a little bit more dynamic and and so I think that's one thing that's interesting about the space is that you can have an audio file It's attached and there's so many different aspects of Of that that you can play with uh Sebastian your hands up just uh, I mean Heidi mentioned a couple of of Things that could be connected to an nft but I want to mention because it relates to what john said last in our last call to have like a vinyl limited edition as a physical object and and then this blockchain a decentralized catalog of of physical objects could come into play that you that you mentioned that I find a super interesting Use case that could be connected to these to these nfts so because then it it relates back to the physical world of physical object and that might be something that is the only way For content that is Abundant and is there all the time. I mean through streaming You you it doesn't make any same sense to own a piece of music unless you actually Buy the the distribution rights or publishing rights To it in a way so there needs to be some Some way to the physical world I I would assume Heidi just put up a An observation that uh VR images um holding a second Yes, AR and VR images are already being attached to the files Brendan, maybe it's just as a closing thought. What's the attention? Oh, there you are. There's one right there. Hi. That's cool Yeah, that's neat What would you want to tell us about that Heidi and then I want to ask Brendan with a closing thought about attention dot live Oh, yeah, it was um Just a twitter feed, but these are some AR VR companies like I think sensorian Is russian-based, but they have an office in LA Oben is china-based with an office in LA and they're using avatars AR VR to attach to on top of these NFTs That's cool. Could you send a link to the company? Yeah. Oh sure sure. Thank you um, so I was going to mention attention live uh ian utili um he's um Created a platform that automatically Generates NFTs around audio and audio clips audio files and He is an endless font of use cases for Audio and NFTs if you go out to his website attention live there it's it's It's been a while since I've been there, but it's useful to understand what he's doing the other thing That I wanted to mention Uh, there's always all these questions that come up around when you talk about NFTs about how many do you produce? and Euler beats That's spilled e-u-l-e-r Euler Euler beats Just issued NFTs it's generative art on the blockchain and they're using bonding curves to set the Price for each subsequent purchase. So they they've got a list price at the the for the round one and round two round three and it gets pretty steep and so it puts a cap on the total number of that this bonding curve acts like a It regulates the the the the price and the quantity and it's a pretty powerful concept But sadly I have to jump off this call. I've really enjoyed it. Can't wait to connect next You've got my email anybody out there should feel free to contact me Anytime always glad to be in communication Yeah, thanks for your question birds. See you again. Yeah Yeah, thank you. See you. Bye. Bye. Thank you, Brad I think it's time probably for most of us to go so there's obviously a lot to be done between now and next time when Hopefully we can get Brendan and Sebastian logically together to talk about the way that they've collaborated um I did have another thought but it's just it's just left my mind um Heidi maybe you and I could get together and talk more about using clubhouse Um, if anybody has any other use cases, they would like us to investigate. We will do so. We will upload the video Um, in the meantime, we'll keep hammering it. Oh, you know what I would like to know more about is whether or not people have In terms of the portability of this project Or it's cross-platform potential if anybody thinks that we would be better served looking simultaneously at another chain I'd be very much interested to hear about that But in the meantime, oh, sorry Sebastian, I can see you moving as if you're about yes, I was wondering whether the Whether this um meeting uh time would be like fixed, uh fixed necessary Like a schedule so Do people prefer it? um no regarding the time for the next meeting. It will be uh, uh I think the european time will be 4 a.m. Again Oh, that's right. I just wanted to if I if I may may raise the question whether There might might be some opportunities to reconsider that time because it It crashed the last Yeah um David, do you want to speak about the the ease or complexity of changing in time? Sure. So I just dropped a link to the calendar so everybody has it I mean as of right now, I know today was an exception But as of right now, we're still alternating between asia friendly and europe friendly so the next call in two weeks is asia friendly and then David let me know if this still works, but then the call after that And two more weeks is going back to the normal europe friendly time at 9 a.m. Pacific Yeah, and if if our clocks change, I think on the 14th does that make it worse for europe? Yeah, the that change is coming so fallbacks spring forward So then then then it would be better for you, wouldn't it? If our clocks go forward Because then the time difference will be less Or does everybody think it's for for two weeks if they And then it regularizes Yeah, but I mean in general we can Me whenever we as a group choose to meet but this the current schedule that we've established was this alternating pattern And does well we could refuse to work together unless we meet one day in recuvik or somewhere in the middle Okay, yeah, but I'll talk to david about a way that that is fair It's because I agree Sebastian and Jerome are not getting a very good deal at the moment Yeah, sure. Yeah, david you and I can talk offline about that. Okay. So in the meantime, thanks very much and I'll see you guys Um, hopefully a couple of weeks from now. Yeah Please write with ideas criticism. There's one more question Yeah, can I ask a quick question when people are looking at stuff when I I'm really excited about cryptokitties. You can breed the cats and people can get together and make a third cat And I feel like for music sampling and and what music is about That's really cool. They use scarcity to kind of create abundance by you know having just general people with their cats or their baseline and someone with the drum line If there's some kind of collaboration that can happen with that So if anyone sees something out there that's in the music space that's doing what cryptokitties Has done that would be great to hear about I can certainly see people Turning for example stems into nfts, right? So you might be able to buy a drum beat or a baseline from a musician And then you could say well, this is an official baseline. It's a copyrighted baseline Which is unlikely given the repetitious nature of popular music, but those building blocks. Yeah might make sense as Yeah, reading concept. Yeah, it's a breeding concept. That's what's fascinating So visual art they figured out how to do a breeding thing and so they had this one brazilian artist who created the basics and then Like lego pieces and then the breeding is putting those together So that's what it would be like in music and I think there could be some some way like that But that would be very inventive. So I haven't seen that yet. That would be really cool Why don't you and I talk about that before next time and then we'll we'll showcase some stuff Cool. Okay Sorry, Sebastian No matter whenever we speak to you you always look like someone from a gothic castle because it's never sunshine It's always dark and shadow So you have the instruments of torture behind you It's also the light I need to to find a better better setup See you later. Thank you, David. David everyone