 Hey Brad, for some reason I'm having a real hard time hearing you. Do you have headphones? Do you have headphones in? It might be that your mic is just a little too far from your mouth. No, I'm not using the mic in the headphone. Well that seems to be better from my end, whatever you just did. Yeah, not much. I'm not noticing anything. That's much better. Oh it's much better, okay. Much better. Maybe my headphones are somewhat interfering with it, so we'll go without the headphones. Okay, as I was saying, this is Development Review Board for Brollington, September 15th. And the first item that we take up items in the order they are on the agenda, when each person's applicant's item is called, Scott will bring them into the meeting. We will swear them in as needed. Right now, I don't think there are any changes to the agenda, is that correct? That's correct. Hey, communications, I didn't see anything new, is that true? Nothing beyond what's in the packet. And we do have minutes from the last meeting or some meeting, I forget which one is in there. Yeah, to include it in the packet. So if people want to look at that, see if they have any comments before we approve it. Then the next item is the Consent Agenda. The first item on the Consent Agenda is 426 South Winooski Avenue. Scott Mape's asking for a time extension request. Yep, Scott Mape's is here. And Scott, I just enabled you to speak. I want to just say, in full disclosure, Scott Mape's lives around the corner from me. And I did get a tour of his place not too long ago. We didn't really talk about his review process, though. So I think I can participate in this. Scott, do you have anything you want to, this is on for the Consent Agenda. That means the staff has recommended approval. Are you okay with the conditions on this? You are. I am, thank you. Okay. Does anybody on the board have any objection treating this as consent? No. Is there anybody in the public, Scott? That wants to talk on this. If you'd like to talk to this item, raise your hand, please. If you're on the phone, you can do that by star nine. I don't see any hands going up, Brad. Okay. So can I have a motion on 426 South Winooski? I can do that. On 426 South Winooski Avenue 21-0076CA-CU, I recommend that we adopt that. Well, I guess it's just a time extension so that we grant the time extension. Is that what I'm moving for? Sure. Okay. Is there a second? Second. Any discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Passes. We have three, four, five, six to zero. You're all set, Scott. Thank you. Have a good night. See you later. Okay. The next item also on consent is 95 Durway Drive, which is a final subdivision of the Clear Point Plan Community. Is the applicant here for that? Yes. Carl, what's been here? Anybody else here for this part? Thank you. One more. An applicant? Liz McCastlin? I'm the Clear Point Homeowners Association President. Okay. So for both of you, this has been recommended for consent approval. Are you okay with the staff's recommendations on this project? Yes. Is anybody on the board object to treating this as a consent agenda item? And there's nobody in the public for this, Scott? Is that true? I don't see anyone. Okay. So can I have a motion on this one? Springer? No, it's just moving my light, but I can move. I move on 20-0488 SD 95 Durway Drive that we adopt staff findings and approve the application. Second? I'll second. Favor say aye. Oh, you're on that too. Okay. The next item is, so you're all set on 95 Durway Drive. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. 820 North Avenue, Winooski Valley Park District, extension of existing preschool daycare use. Nick Warner, are you the applicant on this? Yes. Okay. This also is recommended for approval. Do you have an objection to that? No. No. Does anybody on the board have any objections to treating this as consent? And nobody else is here on the public for this, Scott? I don't see anyone raising their hand. Okay. So motion on 820 North Avenue. Enough of these consent items to go around for everybody to have an opportunity. I'll take it. I move on 21-0202CU 820 North Avenue that we adopt staff findings and approve the application. Second? Keenan. Okay. Any discussion? Because we're going for raising hands. All in favor? Raise your hand. Opposed? Are you voting on this, AJ? Oh, yeah. You didn't see my hand? No. Sorry. I was over here. Okay. Hammer here. Okay. Asses unanimously. So, Nick, you are all set. Thank you, folks. Appreciate it. Okay. The next item is listed as 24 Alexis Drive on the agenda, but on the, on some parts of it, it's called 32 Alexis Drive on the supporting documents. Is there any? It should be 24. I'm not sure where the name came from, but it's 24. 24, yeah. Yeah, you drew the files. Your name? 32. Yeah. The architect designed 32 and 24, and he may have paid some content. So, I apologize for that. This is Dave Gainesbauer. It is 24. Okay. So, you are the applicant? Yes, Dave Gainesbauer here. Have my wife Suzanne with me. Okay. And the staff has recommended this for approval. Do you have any issue with what they've put into their approval? No, we agree with their commentary. Okay. Does the board have any objection to treating this as a consent item? I just have to comment to the applicant. It's a very nice little house and nice set of plans. Nice job. Thank you. Anyways, can I have a motion on this one? 24 Alexis Drive. I'll move on this. Okay. I move for 21-0116 CA 24 Alexis Drive that we adopt staff recommendations. And approve the application. And approve the application. Second. All second. Yeah. Brooks, okay. Any discussion? All in favor? Thanks. Okay, we're all set. Good. So, we've finished the exciting part. You're all set on 24 Alexis. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks very much. Okay. So, I've got to recuse myself on the next item. Okay. Will you just bring me back, Scott? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Do I just leave? Is that what I do? No. I'll put you in with attendees. Okay. Okay. So, the next item is 273 Pearl Street, a plan due to development and involving a number of properties on Pearl Street in Hungerford Terrace. It is the applicant here. The applicant is here and looking to present. So, Greg Durianus. So, Greg, you're up. Here we go. Can you hear us now? Great. So, this is Bruce Baker and Greg Durianus. I don't know if you can see us. I guess before we start, Bruce and everybody else, whoever is going to testify on this or speak on this. And is there any public here for this one, Scott? If so, raise your hand. So far, I don't see any. Okay. Can I have the applicant, which is Brad? Before we start, I also just want to say I make a disclosure. I know Bruce somewhat socially. I see him. We've played golf together once this summer. I don't feel I have any conflict. I just I know Bruce. That's all. Good. So, who's here? Bruce and Greg, is that right? Yes. Greg, can I have the two of you raise your hand and swear to tell the truth and hold truth on the pain and penalty of perjury? We do. Yes, we do. Okay. Saying that, if you want to make your presentation. Okay. Thank you. You absolutely wanted to add at this point. Thank you. So, as Brad pointed out, this is several lots. And Greg, if you would just pull up the area of photograph. As he's showing this, I'll describe it's important the context here because it's a challenging site and kind of a unique location. So, 273 Pearl Street is a dentist's office with a one bedroom studio apartment above it. And it attaches toward the south to 11 Hungerford Terrace and 15 Hungerford Terrace lots. 11 Hungerford Terrace is a five unit building. And it's listed on the historic register as contributing to the Bradley Street Hungerford Terrace historic district. 15 Hungerford Terrace is a modular building, single family residence. It's not historic. 21 Hungerford Terrace is also a contributing structure in the Bradley Street Hungerford Terrace district. And toward the back of the lot, it slopes heavily. So, this is the old ravine. So, challenging site to deal with. We've been dealing with it for a couple of years to try to figure out how to make something work here to utilize the site better, in particular, to improve the stormwater. So, it's a PUD involving four lots. The reason that the dentist office is involved is that we're sharing resources here, landmass, so that we can have shared parking and shared infrastructure for stormwater. The proposal is to remove the 15 Hungerford Terrace building, which is interestingly a modular construction. So, we're hoping to be able to recycle it and donate it to someone for a new home. It's a three bedroom residence now, one unit, just a single family. So, the proposal is to remove that structure and build in its 24 foot wide impression at the street back and then to utilize the remainder of the lot. So, if you switch to slide two, this shows how the existing lots fit together. So, cursor is over 15 Hungerford to be removed. Did you put up slide two, Scott? Yeah, I was looking the same. Did slide two come up for everybody? Are you seeing my screen? No. Seeing your screen, but it's not slide two. So, you don't see the existing site plan, Scott? Should be A1. A1. We're looking at the aerial photo. Yeah, we still see the same original image. It says I'm screen sharing and I'm on A1 now and you're not, you're still on the photo. Yep. Let's try again. I'm not sure how to do a different new share. This is it right here. Maybe this will work. Does that work? Yes, yeah. I don't know how I did that though. This just shows how the lots fit together and the grades we're dealing with here. So, not a lot to see here other than what I just described. And you'll note on the corner, to familiarize with the neighborhood, Pearl Street, the corner of Pearl Street and Humberford Terrace is the handy, the old mobile station that's currently not in use. We skipped to the street view at slide three, right? Okay, I'm going to do my best here, but I don't know where they, how I'm finding these. This is not my screen share normally works different for me. Scott, I'm not like I'm really on my computer. I have this. You have the plans. I know you do. Yeah, but we're hoping to, I mean, we kind of had these all set up. I was, no, I get that, but we do have the plans. You might want to see this cool, but let's see. Greg and Bruce, whatever you're looking at on your screen should be what's showing up here. Yeah, I'm seeing A1. Right. I know. And I'm going to go to what we're talking about right now on my laptop, but I don't think it's going to be, I don't think you're going to be able to see it. This is a picture of the street. Are you seeing this? Yes. Yeah. Oh, you are. Okay, great. So this is a picture of the street in the late fall. So you see what the street looks like. It's kind of tight. We'll show you a perspective later. I'll show you what's going to be built so you can see it without the trees, but the closest to the on the left where the cursor is is 21 hunger for terrorists, a single family dwelling, 1115 hunger for terrorists is in the middle. That's the road. And farther to the north is the 1500 for terrorists, excuse me. Number four. Number four. So this is, does that come up for you, the existing site, the proposed site plan? Yes. Great. So this is, this is a proposed site plan showing you the massing from above. The new construction is in the middle between 21 and 11 hunger for terrorists, excuse me, with parking in the rear. Like I said, on that slide, if we may, how high is the retaining wall on the west side of that property from the adjacent property? I think the highest it's at is 10 and a half feet in the middle. It's kind of like a bowl, like a bathtub in there, both sloping north, south and east-west. So it's less on the north and south side than just in the middle, is what you're saying? Right, right. And, you know, we can show you some pictures if you want to see later, but it's basically the character of that whole ravine, within 100 yards of that westerly boundary are probably seven different retaining walls of very old, not very well put together. And we can show you some pictures toward the end, but, you know, the character of that area is full of retaining walls. So kind of unusual in that way. If you skip to 810, Greg, number five. So this shows a comparison of the street view of the property as it sits now, the three properties on Hungerford, and then below it, it shows how we'll be taking the 15 Hungerford single-family dwelling or pay its placing it with this other, with the new structure. This is a little hard to tell with this one, and I'll show you another one, because as you'll experience it from the street as a 24-foot wide building. That's six. Six. So these are the renderings of all four sides, and we can come back to that if anyone wants to stop there. But I think the most telling will be the street views that we put together at 789, Greg. So this is the same view from the south that you experienced earlier, and you'll notice that we have tried to mimic the pattern on the street, or refer back to the pattern on the street on the other side. There's a very large building at the corner of Pearl Street and Hungerford Terrace, and then another substantially sized one, both with porches and with some brick, and then a smaller single-family dwelling. So we've attempted to repeat that pattern on the other side with porches, with brick up to the mid-level of the first floor windows on three of the sides of the building. You go to A, you can see it again. So this is a view. If you were standing directly across from 21 Hungerford Terrace at the second floor, this is how it would look. Now this is without trees, there's substantial trees there, and we are not taking those, proposing to take those trees out in 2009. And this would be the view as you walk down Hungerford Terrace on the opposite side of the street near that large brick structure in the corner of Pearl and Hungerford. And 10 and 11 show the perspectives from all four sides. The 10 is the east and the southerly elevation, and 11 is the west of the one you were asking about, Brad. We'll be screening that with spruces up to 14 feet and other types of vegetation that are shown on the vegetation plan. And we'll be doing a privacy chance so that there'll be no lighting coming through. And on the right hand side you'll notice this garage. This garage we're going to move and repurpose back further on the lot so we can utilize the lot more fully for parking. And those planting is on your property on the other side, on the west side of that wall. That's correct. We are also, we own a condominium in the commercial condominium in that development. So we also have some permission there to do whatever we need to do as well. But we don't anticipate having to do anything. It's, it'll be maintained from our side. So the floor plans are at the next two slides which are 12 and 13. The floor plans are two bedroom units with a third guest bedroom or den depending. We're finding with the pandemic that a lot of folks are working from home. Currently our tenant population here is about 50% working folks and 50% students. So we anticipate that will probably be the case going forward and we want to position ourselves to be able to lease to anyone in that group. Either group. So that is all we have to show. A couple other items that are here. We're looking to take down an existing dilapidated garage at 11 Hungerford Terrace to move the 21 Hungerford Terrace garage back and to, to remove a side porch on the 21 Hungerford Terrace single family residence so that we could provide better access to the site. So are there members of the board of questions for the applicant? Keenan. Hey, so I have a few questions and many of where I'm jumping ahead here. So if you're going to talk a little bit about your parking plan and all of that, my question can wait until we've seen that part of the presentation but I'm not sure where we're at in your presentation. So we're done. I mean, and I think maybe you can take us where you like to be. I mean, our materials, we have quite a bit in terms of materials. I mean, I can talk about parking now if you'd like. I had a few questions. So let's start first with, so I saw that you did, I like that you were trying to figure out a solution around, you know, encouraging your tenants to sort of give up the use of a car. And I think that, you know, the education plan and things that you've sort of put in here could work. I had just a question and some of your marketing materials. So first, you talk about the Car Share Vermont membership and then in your, one of your materials you said that, you know, you maintain a car share membership for those that qualify and may need to use. So if I'm a tenant that doesn't qualify, what sort of solutions do you have for me? Well, first the qualification is you'd have to have a driver's license. And I don't think we've ever experienced someone who didn't. The other options will be that we offer a bus pass for folks that need it. And we're trying to be as bike friendly as we can with the building itself, including the bike trolley you saw to allow people to go shopping that's in the market where we provide a bike trolley. And all they have to do is put a credit card down to, as a security deposit, so it doesn't get lost. And we give it to them pretty charged. So then on the bus pass issue, I saw in your materials that you offer up to $500 of passes on a first come, first serve basis. So are you only offering $500 a year to your tenants, or do you actually offer a full like annual bus pass? So maybe we should step back for a second. So we have a lot of experience with this. This is developed over probably nine years now, maybe 10. And it started really with looking at your requirements of a parking management plan for another property we had. And we started surveying our tenants and we found that parking and traffic are very boring, granular analysis of how people behave. And we watch it, we survey our tenants every other year, at least and sometimes every year, and we find their patterns. So that's something, when we're saying that these are things we do, we know their work. In fact, we think they push down demand too much and we can't quite lease all of our spaces in some years. As far as the number, we've never used up all of our bus passes because of the location really. I think one time we had someone take advantage of it and we paid for a whole year's bus pass. But we don't have it very often because we're only three blocks from UVM and the medical center and three blocks from tertiary. I was just going to add that I think what this is Greg that we find most of the tenants are walking because of where we're located. It's almost longer to wait for the bus sometimes and it is just to walk the two or three blocks or the downtown or even Pine Street. So but we do have it available. I don't worry about us exhausting our funding for that. It is just to follow up on, I think you've been before the board a few times on a number of these this scale project. And so you just following up on the statement you made Bruce about you don't have all your spaces rented. So is that because you've asked for parking waivers on some of the other projects on College Street I believe. That's right. Yeah, you know go ahead. And so I just want to know how that how does that go on because that speaks to what you're doing here. Sure. So first thing is we wouldn't try to build something with this potential for liability unless we knew we could rent it and we can't rent it unless we have parking. And what we've seen is by by act so first of all the in Burlington we get out early in September and lease for next June. And during that time that provides us with an opportunity to have pre lease meetings with our tenants and to tell them about the cost of parking charged separately for parking to tell them about bus passes. And also to tell them that we prioritize tenants who value walking and other modes of transportation and we'd like them we'd like if we can to lease to them first because I think it's a less of a burden on the community. And you and we explain with detail how much how much it costs if they were trying to avoid parking with us and maybe parking on the street or in the parking garage and in our package we explained to them it's a we looked at parking meters feeding a meter every day that's about $3,000 a year I think. So and the other thing that we do is we try to we try to allocate at least one car per unit to one car for each unit so that every unit has a car and they're in a shared situation anyways to living in the and we attempt to convince them that sharing a car is is even better than sharing less invasive than sharing a sharing a home. So that's been really successful I think our numbers last year were and over the last four years have been about 0.9 these spaces per unit utilized. That's a lot of buildings Bruce or how many units? So we have 67 units and one thing you'll notice that we've asked to share parking between other lots we found over the years is we've been driving down parking demand in one or two lots and we've been open for the year and under prior bylaws you weren't allowed to share within so that that is there because we're you know not because we're not concerned about this parking management plan for this site it's that we would like to be able to move cars over to these other ones so that folks aren't folks can use our other parking. Folks can use this parking for other sites but it's not dependent on this. You track this is Jeff Hand. The number of cars that your tenants have who don't rent spaces from you? Yes and what has that been historically? So percentage of cars so usually there aren't very many I mean there's probably four or five of you and we ask for it in the application and we don't consider the application unless it's fully filled out so we ask for a registration of a car they're bringing to campus and we're really close to our tenants our people are there every day so we would know if there was a car floating around that wasn't registered with us. Okay so maybe my question wasn't clear. The number of tenants you have who have a car but are not renting a space separately from you so cars that are associated with your tenants but are not parking on your property or under your management. For last year the last lease year number four out of 220 out of 212 tenants. Okay thanks. Any other questions from the board on parking? I have a site-related issue on that and that this is I know it has to go through DPW and stuff but it looks to me like you're collecting the water from the western property and putting into underground storage tanks is that what I'm seeing? So that's what you're because there's a lot of water that's coming out to your property now from those adjacent properties right? There is and mostly it runs where we're seeing it we're seeing it as 11 hunger for terrorists in the basement. This way yeah yeah so that's and DPW is going to review that anyway so I just wanted to make sure I was understanding what's being proposed there. Yeah see we're hoping we believe it's an improvement because CEA designed a modern vault underneath there to to capture more I think it it meets the standards and get pumped into the storm sewer after that? I don't think I'll have to look. Right you're pumped somewhere but you know I don't remember right engineering and sternwater is on my string. I'll answer that for you Greg we'll find those. I think you can infill traits but I don't know. It's up to about 10 or 15 feet down it looks like. We went to conservation board I brought our engine here. I think that question came up but I don't recall the answer. And just just one other question. Is 18 apartments am I am I making that right? So there's 12 apartments proposed to be built one house proposed to be taken away so you'll have a single family derailing a 12 plex and a five plex so let's say 18. 18 and in the new building they're all three bedroom sorry. Right I'm anticipating that a lot of people will be working from home at least a while so it's two plus one in some cases but we wanted to identify through. This has questions right now I guess I'm curious about one thing on the streetscape that you had there I'm trying to find that image that has I'm just more or less curious about and this isn't high analysis priorities here but it looks like you've got a natural wood on the post on the porch on the street front. Yes. Right here. Yeah. Yeah. What's your question? Well I'm just a little surprised at that. So the DAB made the same comment Brad and we haven't updated this since then which was a week and a half ago but I think it was discussed about maybe just making them white which we're certainly better I think the naturalism maintenance hassle for you guys. A bit yeah but but you know it wasn't a critical item we just hadn't done it but we can easily provide a rendering to you of white you know very similar to across the street. I'd agree with the DAB I guess. Okay. It's interesting it didn't make the motion so that's why we were right we sure we it was discussed at this which you're talking about right. Yeah right. Yeah so it was discussed at DAB but they didn't they didn't fire a change so we just hadn't gotten it. I remember all the attempt to make it sort of fit in even though it's very different that seems contrary. Yeah I think that's easily done. Yes. Yeah sounds. I did I did find in in a document from Public Works it says the vast majority of the project area drained to the proposed storm tech infiltration facility which is what was designed. This facility is designed to infiltrate the water quality storm event and reduces pre-development post-development peak flows for the 10-year storm event via control structure prior to discharge into the ravine drainage well at the property boundary so it doesn't sound like it's pumping. Yeah infiltration trench. Right and stormwater treatment submarine hydrology plan stormwater modeling traditional information so I mean there's so much here and it's a little bit over our knowledge set but it'll give you a little bit of flavor. Okay so I'm cleaning did you have another question? I didn't know I'm all set. Okay and were there members of the public here Scott? If you're looking to speak to this application please raise your hand again if you're on the phone that's star nine so I don't see any hands going up Brad. Okay the secret if you like that Bruce have you not have any public coming in? Yeah it's surprising. Do you want me to stop this? We worked a lot with the neighbors in the in the ravine they're my co-owners in the condo. Yeah so we've met a lot with them and responded to their comments I mean this has been going on for a couple years in the planning so we've designed it with them in mind. A number of the changes we've made have been specific to their you know our discussions with them so that's a good start I suppose. And I guess one other question so you are subject to affordable housing on this is that true? Yes I think two years. So that and that gets done with with the city. Correct. CEDO does that right? Yes it was. It was. Yeah it was involved in it let's put it that way. Okay okay well if there are no other questions from the board at this point then we want to um okay well we're going to close the public hearing and we'll see whether we feel like we've been enough to deliberate if we have any more questions. Okay thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So we have our next item is 400 North Street new dwelling unit demolishing a garage is the applicant here. I believe so let me uh let me bring Berks back up. By Berks? The applicant. Cheers the applicant. Will McKenna. Okay. Hi this is Will McKenna here. Okay I you know there were some questions from I guess a neighbor and a few comments from the staff that had to do with water flow on the property and adjacent property and I'm going to add just a little curiosity about the driveway how it intersects with Dan's court so with that kind of little preamble maybe is there simply you want to say or present on this? I'm sorry but I keep forgetting this is I'm not used to this zoom that's where you went and is there anybody else speaking on this Scott? Hi if you'd like to speak raise your hand please I see a number of attendees. Oh okay. So I'm seeing several. All right who want to speak on this? Yep Shall I allow them to talk for swearing in or a hold off? Why don't you um to talk to swearing and then we'll let the applicant speak. Okay. And when people speak we'll ask that they identify themselves and give contact information so Scott can follow up. Right so your mailing address for notification of the board decision. So I see Joseph Clary Luke Purvis who's kind of somebody who's on a phone. I'm going to ask the four of you do you swear to tell the whole to his underpain and penalty of perjury? I do. I do. I do. It's three. I do. Okay great. So thank you everybody. So the applicant's going to make a presentation we'll have questions and then the public will get a chance to speak. So we'll see what they would have to say. Well I'd like to start off with saying thank you for hearing this. I guess the initial report that I got from from from Ryan Morrison I think almost everything was was ruled in the affirmative not ruled but was found in the affirmative. Then we had then there was I guess a few public concerns that were brought up about the wastewater. I actually it was a bit of my fault. I did not follow up with I believe James Sherard on a few questions he had had and then I ended up following up with him the last several days and that was in regards to the stormwater mitigation. So this this past weekend I met with with Joe and with Luke. Joe I believe is 158 North Willard Street and Luke is 164. We sort of discussed some additional mitigation that we could potentially do. I sent in a plan earlier this week. I think it was yesterday. I basically said that it just I just showed that I could potentially install a French drain along the what would be the western side of the of my lot and that would sort of intercept the water that would potentially flow from the east side from Dan's court. And what would happen was the French train would sort of take the water you know away from from the Cleary's garage and will push it south and and away from also Luke Purvis's property which borders mine to the to the north. That's all dependent on the grades and I don't see any we don't have any information on grades in front of us. I don't know if you have and junior site plan. Have you has one been done? Well what I did I mean I had I had Krebs and Lansing do an existing conditions plan and I thought that that would sort of suffice and so I mean here here I am you know I'm proposing you know some mitigation and I think that for the most part my neighbors and I are on the same page you know I've told them that I want to when to do what I can everything I can to ensure that they do not have additional storm water coming going to their property and I think that I have a good solution for it. Well I guess the solution is going to have to pass muster with TPW right? Yeah I mean I'm not proposing it otherwise I would I sent them the plant the sent them some more information so that they could review it I thought that was the path forward so and is that a grading plan that shows the grades and how you're proposing this French train to work? I mean I had basically I just I came up with this idea literally this weekend because I didn't think that there was was going to be issues with storm water and and then it was brought to my attention by my neighbors who you know I'm taking their concerns very seriously and so I've proposed this as a strategy. Is this your project Ryan? It is. So I'm just going through the recommended conditions of approval. I didn't think I saw something I see something about TPW for water and sewer services but nothing about storm water. Yeah we usually put that condition prior to release of the zoning permit to get that approval but the new ADU ordinance speaks specifically to the DRB must I don't remember verbatim but it must the DRB must find that it meets the storm water requirements in order to make a decision. So that's why language is kind of why we didn't go with that recommended condition and went forward with no finding possible at this point until such storm water plan is approved. If the bar here Brad is there was a lot of discussion when this amendment is being put together and really the focal point was what are you going to do about runoff right so it was deliberately put in there that it goes to the board but that DBW needs to find that it's acceptable before the board acts. So that would speak to us having something to look at that addresses that condition and we don't we don't have anything here. No approval note from DPW would mean our meet that standard. Yeah that would be one way to do it like otherwise but if that's the thing that we're supposed to be looking at it then we would need to see something that we could. Right so yeah Brad sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you. I wasn't you know when I submitted this permit I wasn't aware of any sort of I had done the paperwork for the storm water application and that was it and I was not I was not aware of the concerns of my neighbors about specifically about storm water until you know several days ago. So and originally when I received the I guess the the findings that it didn't say anything about this and that was that was amended shortly after. So I guess I guess if you're proposing that I mean I I'm not I'm not sure if if if you want to you can't what it seems like is that you guys aren't able to rule on that but what I guess you need an answer from it would be I guess James Scherard. I would say but let's not jump to a conclusion yet because we could approve it with okay about TBW there's other things. Yeah that's what I that's what I'd like to I'd have one I want to the site question though and this also relates to grades and things is there's a retaining wall along your property on Dan's court. Yes it's not really clear to me where that retaining wall ends and that speaks to a difference in grades between Dan's court and your property. Right you're going to have a driveway going from Dan's court onto your property so it it it's not clear how the elevations work to get from Dan's court onto your property with a car. Well so so like a standard parking spot is you know approximately like 18 by 9 feet. Is it past the end of the retaining wall? No so there's a retaining wall that spans all of Dan's court and so what I would be doing is at that the the difference between the the finished grade of of my lot and Dan's court at that portion is about it's about 18 to 20 inches so basically what I was thinking is that you know I could I would grade it down about an inch a foot or something like that which I don't think would be it's not that gonna be that steep and and then but it the I would take it you know 18 feet 18 to 20 feet and then I would still have there would still be a over 10th of barrier you know between now that's probably vegetation between my property line and it just speaks to more creating issues that aren't clear but I understand your attention. Okay yeah so I mean I guess I mean I guess this is why we do these hearings is that you know I didn't think I didn't think that that was you know like I didn't think that storm water was going to be a big issue on this but it seems like it is so that that could be something that I could provide more documentation on if that's what the if that's what's being requested here. So before we go to the members of the public are there other questions from the board for the applicant will we're going to let the the three people who are here from the public speak and raise questions or whatever they have to say and then afterwards we'll ask you that you can come back and address whatever they have to say. Right sure. So out of the three people two of them I see names and the third one I see is a phone um it's your turn to speak so if you can just identify yourself and say where you live or some contact information for Scott that would be helpful. So let's start with Joe, Clary everyone's muted at the moment so Joe just unmute yourself. Okay can you hear me? Yes. Okay thanks for taking this up and I want to thank Will also for answering so many of our questions this weekend and the only let's see the only thing in the plan I would want to bring to the board's attention is I think the the recommendation mentioned snow guards for the roof on the western side that would be very helpful. The drain that Will mentions if there's a French drain that is between our properties and between the his proposed building and our garage I would just want to make sure that that was sized for the capacity of storm water that's needed but that would be that would be helpful anything he could do to mitigate that. I know you can calculate what comes off of a roof I'm not sure how to calculate what comes off of Dan's court but I really appreciate the board engaging with that issue. Thanks. So Joe can we get your mailing address? Sure it's 158 North Willard. Yeah thanks. Joe how is the drainage right now on your property? Right now it's manageable because I was at let's see a number of years ago we had water running into the back of the garage I peeled up some some siding on the back basically it's I have to access Will's property to do that so that's a little difficult it sits right on the property line I wish it were five feet off our property line I think we'd have less issue but it peeled up some siding and sealed it up and then compacted the earth really really good right there so it doesn't leak into the garage currently but I also clear snow from one side of the garage and I just you know the concern is that a large increase in that area if it's just a five foot set back to the wall that that could change and that we'd have just a stream so we're trying to avoid a stream running through that area and that's it. Okay thank you. Thanks. So service next. Luke do you want to unmute okay you there Luke we're not hearing anything yet. Oh you Luke. Are you still muted or can you speak? All right maybe we should come back to Luke and listen to uh caller. And who can you identify yourself the person who's on the phone and you're muted. Yes the Phantom is Sharon Busher from Ward 1 and um dance court is a familiar street for me because first of all I live in Ward 1 but then I represented the ward for a long time and no um since I go there in the winter and this is spring when I was campaigning no there's a lot of water and so when I read this application I thought about it and then I realized also I was part of the joint committee for planning and the city council ordinance committee with the expansion and allowance of ADUs and um the need for that but also knowing that with that expansion come some unintended consequences and one of those had to do with erosion and and stormwater runoff and so for me it's really important that the DRB have that information um before you approve um because I think that sometimes I've had my own experience before we had accessory dwelling units um where someone put in a parking lot and it actually caused a real problem for houses on a side street and in fact one neighbor actually ended up moving out because she really couldn't control the water that came into her basement as a result of that expansion and the runoff that resulted from that parking lot so um I think these are our issues that can be resolved and I want this application to move forward but I don't feel like I know enough to feel confident that everything can be solved and um and want to know that before approval so thank you very much and I think you have my address but I'll say anyways 52 East Avenue in Burlington hey Sharer thank you so are you able to to speak at this point Luke is unmuted but I'm not hearing anything so Luke could send comments if he's got a technical problem he could send me an email and the board could see that before you deliberate okay does that work I think that works for the board um if Luke can do something in the next to do that today is that the idea he would yeah yeah the next few minutes send email to Scott Luke if you can do that that would be helpful um hear your comments um so I guess we'll go back to Will right now if Luke can speak before we finish this that's great um and I get maybe um I guess I also have a question for the board right now um you know the the stormwater which I guess for ADUs is sort of in our court we can ask DPW to weigh in on that and that that can be a condition of approval which is sort of how we usually do it but it is a concern on this property I'm also concerned that right now without grades and things like that there's no way to really know how somebody drives onto this property I understand that there may be a way to do it but we don't see that on anything we don't have a site plan with grades that show how to do that I'm you know we could either look at this thing and make a lot of conditions or we can ask them to come back with some of this information I'm curious to see what's the board of the members of this is Jeff I'm kind of leaning towards the more information I mean Will could maybe help me understand this but the french drain concept is confusing me a little bit you know I can't tell Will if you're proposing a french drain along Dan's court and where that would essentially outlet or what I heard I think from Joe was a request for a french drain along west side of the property behind his garage on your property um so I'm it's just unclear to me what the plan is and I think it'd be helpful to see both that and the grading that Brad has done yeah I'm not sure I'm not sure if the latest thing I've I've I've I sent out got circled but um you know what I did I you know I don't pretend to be an architect um but you know I you know I there there's a I got professional plans done well some of the things I've done I've just labeled on them um but uh I said I believe to Ryan Brian correct me if I'm wrong um and James Scherard and to and to and to Joe I just labeled on the on one of the site plans um sort of where the the french drain would go and it basically it would run from almost from the northern uh property line uh the length of uh the the ADU on the west side which is which is um close to Cleary um uh Joe Cleary's lot so basically in theory if if if water did come down the driveway which is slope and westward right then it would run into the front the french string and instead of continuing on into the into Joe Cleary's garage or onto his property and the french string would uh would basically stoke up a lot of that water and and put it and it would then run out and dump out um closer to the main house uh will the trope with that is that all of that is dependent on the specific grades and slopes and things like that which we don't have I mean I it sounds great and if it works like that that sounds great but without having we don't have information that says that that could even work well yeah so that's why that's why I sent it to uh to James um it was the the storm the storm water so you had something with grades and elevations on that no I I literally like this weekend I literally just just labeled on on one of the existing landscape plans like where this would go so that my name more for my neighbors have a better understanding yeah we don't have that yet right I don't see it in the plan package no it didn't make it to the plan package um and it basically just went to James oh sorry Brian I don't know if I would if I copy gainan did you're trying to say something yeah do you so uh William do you have any objection to us just sort of asking getting sort of deferring any sort of decision on this until we get some more information well what I what I think what I think is that what I would like is you know it seems it may maybe maybe I'm I'm overstepping here but uh what I was I don't think that I think it was one of the happiest moments I've had in the last six months when I read the uh the findings originally from Ryan and I and I read through every and pretty much everything was uh was affirming and I you know I called my you know I I call I call my dad and I said you know because I've been thinking about this project for a long time and I said I think that I think that this is really going to happen and then you know now um and I and I don't think that anything's really changed I think that there there are some additional concerns about the storm water but personally I don't think that that the storm water is going to be an issue um and and I think but I'm I'm definitely willing to do whatever I can with the questions by the board and by my neighbors to mitigate this but I think that you know I don't want to I don't want to say okay let's let's table this whole thing you know until like I you know get you know have to have to get a whole new set of plans I think that maybe if we can if we can improve this with the condition from the um maybe from getting a improved EPS for a approved storm water plan if there's something if I get a plan that's approved by the by James for others in terms of making that decision and it's just conditional on that because I this is that from what the way that I'm reading this that's the only issue I would I would throw in the issue of the driveway to only because what you described to me is not an easy 18 inches a lot of height to make up in a driveway uh you know and you say the thing is you know it's like would you you know is it uh you know is it is it perfect no but you know this is uh you know this is I think that this is something that you know would be I think it's a I think it's a good project it's it's uh you know it's maximizing you know the the utility of I don't think there's any doubt about it it's a very sweet little building it's a nice little bit nicely detailed I think it's quite nice that way looks like it all will work we just don't have information that we're need to okay come to a conclusion I think is the issue it's not that I mean I think it looks good whether we you know want to put it off on the DPW to figure out these things I guess that's an option for us but and and I and I understand the board's concern like 100 so I guess you know I think so I think the board sort of getting at I think that the driveway and the storm water I think that I think that those two go hand in hand so I think that that's sort of the that's the crux of the issue and I don't think like I don't think that you know going down 18 inches like I don't think that that's going to be uh and and I'm I'm not sure if everyone's going to find that I labeled on the because it's not going to be a solid concrete driveway and this is going to be a ribbon or mable paper so so I'm not putting that you know a hundred twenty square foot like slab of concrete right so okay well I think we could I think maybe the process maybe that we can start to deliberate at the side if we have enough information if not then we can reopen it we can ask to reopen for information that's Brad um before you before you get there um I do see a hand up somebody looking to speak to this item who is that Christina Christina Ladderbach looks like do you want to admit her first yeah Christina good grief all right we have another older version of zoom let's see if we can make this work Christina um I have to swear you in can you hear me yes Brad this is Luke Purvis oh Luke Purvis well you're already I swore in earlier I got to a different computer with less technical problems welcome thank you for allowing my testimony in your patience okay um so yeah the the storm the storm water is uh is um a concern for me because the Dan's court catch basin does lie directly to the east of my property and 164 north willard street okay it's got a big white barn about the same uh you know like in in line with will's property um and so that that catch basin is the low point of the entire Dan's court um and so on these water events like the rains you know we do get a quite a bit of water that that flows to that area from both directions of Dan's court and um the catch basin I think is possibly clogged at this point and I've had a lot of water overflow from the um over the curb and directly down on them the property and then it runs down um the property between Mr. Cleary and myself um and some of our previous interactions with the board I've that that the source of that water has been blamed on my parking areas and so it's a little bit personal for me um but a lot of water comes down and it and it and it does cause like a good amount of um it can cause some runoff um and so the uh the um with the driveway cut out into the curb then you know that's a little bit of a concern because then we lose four inches of like a dam barrier that was previously containing um the water in Dan's court um in on Dan's court and allows it to like come through and so um you know I will was great and and and did and I did talk to him quite a few times and um you know the French drain solution is seems like a reasonable solution if it's if it's um you know if it's like can work within the engineering and the grades of the of the properties and um so if you know if that works I I do support his his proposal it's um I just you know there is a lot of water back there that that kind of comes through and um that's just something that I wanted to you know that you know I wanted to be addressed and uh secondly um in terms of the driveway um with the Dan's court um I already have one turnaround area directly behind my house and so I get a lot of headlights um from from that turnaround area and so um you know Will had offered to put in some screening um when I when I had asked about that to help with the headlights when he turns in from Dan's court and then you know would shine his shine the headlights to the northeast or sorry northwest um and would hit my house and so um he had offered to to do some mitigation with screening around that too and so those were my uh two kind of primary concerns questions from the board for Luke I'm glad you're able to make a connection appreciate it thanks for having me thanks so um Will the issues sound all solvable but they're solvable with with um information about slopes grades contours water flow things like that um that you know how do you park on this side how how do you not ruin the existing drainage on Dan's court uh French stream maybe the absolute a good solution there you just need elevations on or something um I guess I think for I think it's for us to decide Brad what we want to do with it I mean we've heard the sides I mean okay then maybe we'll deliberate and the other thing is uh I I've one of the one things that I suspect um is that there there is a there is a catch base and that I believe to be pretty much blocked and I think that's one of the reasons and and I've offered to uh I've offered to pay to have more or at least investigate maybe it's not but I think that that's that's an additional mitigation um that I will um I mean it's you shouldn't have a cloud catch basin regardless um that's what they're there for so uh you know I'm I'm willing to to do that as well okay well I think we're going to um close the public hearing at this point and we'll deliberate and then after we can decide how we want to approach this okay so what what what happens I'm sorry uh does yeah I we'll see if we deliberate tonight which we we may deliberate tonight so um and you can't you can listen on deliberation you can't participate um so we'll probably do that tonight I think let's do that sound reasonable to members of the board I don't see any objection we rather come back okay so that's probably what's going to happen you know we have one more item on agenda and after we close the hearing we'll we have a few items to uh deliberate on okay uh yeah I guess sorry I don't want to keep um uh talking or anything I mean last thing the more I talk the the bigger chance of me putting my foot in my mouth well at this point we've closed the hearing so we're gonna close the hearing okay we're done okay well um thank you very much uh and I think that uh you know I think I think this went well okay thanks well okay we do have one other item on our agenda which is um 441 Shelburne Street project status update um is uh Mitchell Richard here yeah I see Mitchell oh Mitchell um I think this is just uh update so um you've obviously made progress I guess it's court to give us can you unmute Mitchell uh Mitchell is unmuted can you hear us Mitchell oh he's raising his hand let me see if I can uh maybe if I make him a panelist that might work that that helps when there's older burdens burdens being used all right Mitchell we're gonna try this so um for Katelyn's benefit this is a project that's been under construction for a number of years and um it was uh I spoke to the neighbors and a problem but it so we've had him come in to keep informing us as to his progress and that he's actually finishing this he's worked very hard of late right so this was last before the board in May of this year the board requested a update in September unless it was done so it's not quite done but it's getting there um the permit's valid to February of this coming year it's looking good on the front but I'm curious about the facts let's see what Mitchell has to say see is this any more successful so we can't hear you Mitchell I'm not sure what's up well you know I had the same problem with my mic at the beginning so I'm I don't know you were just faint no well I did have a problem with the with the setup I had apparently helping his interruption Mitchell is to call in real fast to one of the phone numbers on the agenda okay we can reschedule or at the board we can reschedule I mean it does look good yeah I think it looks I it's a huge improvement since the last right just like we got together oh it is I just like could he the fact looks just good could he email in on update and we can take it up to the next one sure I'd be okay are there neighbors are there are I know the last time the neighbors on yeah I don't see Jeff I don't see Jeff on the participant list it'd be interesting anyone wish to weigh in from the public on this if so raise your hand I don't see any hands coming up Fred okay so um we're going to ask Mitchell to um send us an email and we'd love pictures of the back of it just to have some assurance and that will suffice I think for an update because we see something untoward okay I think an added you know expectation is it will February um to that look like it will actually be completed by then that's that's the uh end of the end of the time limit on the zoning permit so it needs to be done yeah you just want to reiterate that to Mitchell yeah okay so that was our last item on the agenda we have no other nothing no no other business unless somebody has something else we will close our hearing um and then we'll so the the hearing is closed the um um report meeting and then we're going to uh go to deliberate