 Felly, wrth gwrs, wrth iawn, cymdeinydd i'r second meeting of the Health and Sport Committee in 2019. Can I ask everyone in the room to ensure that mobile phones are off or on silent, while it's acceptable to use mobile devices for social media? Please don't take photographs of the court proceedings, as we do them as the Parliament. We've had apologies this morning from two members, the committee David Stewart and Sandra White. The first item on the agenda is an evidence session with Sport Scotland, and I welcome to the committee Stuart Harris, the chief executive, Jacqueline Lynn, Sports Development Head of the School and Community, and John Lunn, Sports Development Head Pathways at Sport Scotland. Welcome and thank you for your attendance this morning. Can I start by simply asking you to reflect? I know that you will be looking ahead to the next year, but to reflect on the last year and on the ways in which you have measured the impacts of your work and ask you in general terms how far you are satisfied that the way you measure impact is giving you what you need in terms of achieving eventual outcomes. Thank you for the opportunity to have a conversation with the committee. The last we've just come at the end of a planning cycle, which I've finished, we tend to use the commonwealth games as just a touch point. It's not the priority, it's just a touch point, but it allows us to review everything we do. We have, for the last six years, been very clear about the way in which we want to work, trying to create a system approach for sport and physical activity across the country. The essence of that is that schools, clubs, communities, performance, all connected, driven by fantastic people, the bulk of whom are volunteers, and great partnerships. I'm probably going to talk quite a bit, convener, about partnerships across this session, because in order to get effective results, efficient results with the resources that we all have collectively across the country, I think it's really important that we work together to make the most of those. With the common outcome is we want to see people of all ages taking part in sport for whatever reason they want to take part. So in all of those areas we think there's been some really strong performances in schools and education, active schools, and now it's 14th year. This is something that we at Sports Scotland feel really strongly about, this commitment to long-term outcomes, young people being at the heart of that, and making sure that our partnership with local authorities, with the education sector, are reaching to every single school in the country, all £2,500, gives us an opportunity to introduce young people to activity for life and sport, and for those who want to go to that other end, which is performance, if they have the talent, ability, ambition, then they can do that also. In the community world, at the back, after the Commonwealth Games in 2014, we established just over 100 community sport hubs, and again you'll recognise the theme from this, is that we are really keen to put sport at the heart of communities across the country. So we now have 196 community sport hubs, over 50 per cent of those are in schools, there are a huge number of clubs and people participating in those, they are self-determined and self-managing, and it's something that we think will continue to grow and develop, and on record previously as having said, that every secondary school in Scotland should be a community sport hub, and perhaps some of the primary schools as well that have the facilities to do so. In performance, we came through the Commonwealth Games, 44 medals, fantastic result in Gold Coast, and underpinning all of that activity for us is the clear articulation all of our individual work and partnership work in sport and physical activity has with the Active Scotland Outcomes framework. We are very clear that the Active Scotland Outcomes framework offers Scotland a fantastic opportunity to make the nation active, if sport, education, health, transport, environment can all work together to offer opportunities for people to be active, whether it's just going for a walk or playing sport with their friends at whatever age they are. In terms of measurement, on an annual basis we've produced, and I think you may have been given a copy of that, the Active Scotland Outcomes framework from our perspective, what our contribution was, but also from our perspective it's really important that all of the areas that I mentioned earlier on are able to articulate their individual contribution but also the partnership contributions that they had. So we would talk about active schools and our partnership with education, and the results are not just ours, they're those in partnership with education. In each of the areas that we work with on active schools, we have data for every single school, very clear articulated data that is specific to each school, primary or secondary, which allows us to review and reflect on where we are with partners to therefore plan better to go ahead and try and improve the opportunities for more activity. In terms of that framework that you've described, is that something that you review on a regular basis? Do you keep it under review? Does it change from year to year what's the process if you like for ensuring you're measuring the right things? So, at the moment, Kevena, we're spending at the end of that four-year period, so we're taking a look at everything we do. We're reflecting on what has impact, what's giving us the best value for money, what's the most effective partnership tools that we have. We don't have a huge number of activities that we work with, we've tended to work and invest in people, so an example of that would be we've got over a thousand positions, full-time positions in active schools, community sport that we work with partners to support and develop, and these are extended commitments for a number of years. On an annual basis, we drop down into community sport hubs and look at the data, and each of the communities around those hubs, the officers that are supporting them, will review how they've got on, what their results are, how they can then target additional participation, albeit that they have to look at the capacity for that in terms of facilities and people. For us, Kevena, it's really important that we continue to review on an annual basis and on an ongoing basis everything we do. At the end of a cycle, we've got a four-year period, so we can look at that extended period, but the critical thing is that we look at how each of those sectors connects, so how is school connecting with the community and how does all of that connect up with performance? I'd like to start by asking how we calibrated investment and focus in sport in respect of promoting elite performance and wider-access ground-level involvement, because we've talked a lot and rightly so about Scotland's plaudits around elite performance, but I'd like to say what's the focus of your organisation's time between elite performance versus wider-access grassroots involvement? I'm going to answer that in a couple of ways. One, we try to look at this from a perspective of Scotland, so you probably heard me say this before. Of the public investment, 90 per cent is spent on grassroots and community support. In terms of high performance, we spent last year about 18 per cent of our budget on performance sport. It's a very tight area. There are 640 athletes supported at the moment, and their ambition is to win medals very clearly at major games on that world stage. There is a connection to the UK, so we try to make sure that that connection into the UK, which brings resources with it. UK resources, we want to access that as well. The calibration has always been, if I just use that percentage, it's 90 per cent on activity around schools and communities, people in places, and about 10 per cent on performance sport. Can you just explore that interface between Scottish sport and wider UK team GV, as it were? How does that operate on a day-to-day basis? Do we get funds from UK athletics and UK other sporting disciplines? Just a potted history of that. UK sport will fund the British bodies, so let me just use an example. It's right in front of my head from last week. So our expectation doesn't quite meet UK sports yet, but we think there needs to be a greater alignment between the resources that are spent at a UK level in supporting a British body and what the reach and impact into a Scottish body would be. The resources will be given to the British body and it's our job to make sure that there's an alignment and a pathway with Boxing Scotland to make sure that athletes have the best opportunity to step into what's called a world-class athlete programme, so there's a podium programme and a podium development programme. In all of the sports that are in Olympic or Paralympic disciplines, we try and make sure that that's the outcome for us. We could then hand those over to the British body, which are supported by significant resources. In the last cycle, there was about £350 million spent on performance sport by the UK sport. Obviously, elite performance begins at the grassroots. You identify that the children of today will become the track stars of tomorrow. How do we get the culture right so that those kids are encouraged and supported to be the best they possibly can be without leaving all of their peers behind so that the focus of the gym teacher or the sports coach is divided fairly so that the elite guys get the time, but so does everybody else? I think that that's probably in the best shape it's ever been, if I'm being honest. As a former PE teacher, it was always my job to make sure that every child in the class that you taught had the best opportunity to improve their skills, the acquisition of that skill, to interact with their peers, to become more confident, to improve communication, all of those things, that's my job as a teacher. But then another hat on, I would step on and become a coach after school. When we were looking at young people who had potential ambition to explore, and it's only that, to explore what that might look like and how the pathway would help them. Now, it's really important when we talk about a system that those connections and those discrete areas are valued in their own right. Getting young people active is not purely for the outcome of performance sport, but for a few it will be. But the bulk of what we're doing is just making sure that taking part leads to participation outcomes and all sorts of other outcomes that are maybe wider than that. So we use a phraseology which is about changing lives through sport, and we passionately believe that there's the potential to do that, both as individual units of schools, clubs, sports, Scotland, but collectively there's a real good opportunity. So I think that the balance is in a good place. There's more work to do, we're very, our chair who can't be here today, Mel Young is actually down with UK sport today trying to help them improve their system. And without putting too fine a point on it, we would like to see a greater degree of integration and alignment between UK sport and ourselves and British bodies and the Scottish body. Brian Whittle, did you have a brief supplement? That's just a quick supplement. Good morning to the family. It's just to move on to do further on to Alex Cole-Hamilton's question. They are around the link between Sport Scotland and UK sport funding. It's my understanding in the very elite level that the funding for our elite athletes and the podium athletes comes from UK sport. That's something to the tune of about £12 million, is that right, that goes directly into our elite athletes? That's the funding, their funding comes out, it doesn't come out of sport Scotland, it now comes out of UK sport once they get to that podium program, is that correct? Yeah, that's absolutely correct. In an ideal world that's the solution we're looking for. So our responsibility in helping the UK or the British system is for us to develop the system in Scotland to make sure there's a pathway for athletes. As many young people are taking part as possible and that's broadly resourced, there's tiny amounts of money that might come in for small projects but broadly that's what we do. As soon as they step on to those podium programmes, UK sport and the British body take over 100 per cent responsibility while they're on that programme. There is a bit of, you know that yourself, there is a bit of a tune in front so athletes can step off the programme or be removed from the programme either permanently or temporarily and we would then pick up some support for them at that point which is the ideal way again of how the system would work. Thank you. Good morning to the panel. I wanted to touch on the school estate which you've already mentioned. I've raised this a number of times in committee with regards to Edinburgh and different charities who have been trying to get access to the school estate and the costs and ability to do that. I just wondered in terms of your experience how you've seen that improve potentially and if there's any certain local authorities who have actually made some of those challenges go away for accessing our school estate. We did a research a few years ago on that and I think there's a lot of perception there that says the school estate's not opened and it's not being used. From that research we identified the 89 per cent of the school estate's actually being used and what we did was talk with our local authority partners around what does that look like so we worked with them around what's happening within them, how do they plan better, how do they prepare better, what's actually happening and how could they capitalise on that for local communities. Where we did have some real success was around Glasgow who really looked at that and took their whole school estate and their community estate and started working that and again in East Lothian and it's again how they plan and prepare for that so I see real improvements in that and the opportunity to really combine using the local school estate with the community estate to provide more opportunities so there's real progress there. In recent weeks Edinburgh City Council for example have gone back on a decision to increase whole charges which I welcome and had been pressing for. Given the financial pressures which local authorities are already telling us they are coming under, are you concerned that access to schools and to sports are going to be really challenged in this environment because unless there's a noise made off in these things become the easy low hanging fruit to increase charges on. We were part of that conversation and this is what we would try and do. The essence of what Jackie and what we talked about earlier on is we see local authorities as vital partners, their arms length bodies are key in working together but what we're trying to do is to make sure there's a clear plan for access and in some cases our strategic conversations will cover that but on other occasions it just comes out of the blue. Now we have to be able to react to that. It's our job to try and work with local authorities to try and persuade them of the best ways in which they can use their resources, how they can make the most of their facilities and allow as many people to participate. Of course everyone has challenges with resources at the moment but our job is to work closely with local authorities and their partners to try and persuade them of the value to communities of sport and physical activity and it's really important to do that and we will continue to advocate that to all of them. I want to go off on a tangent here. One of the issues that had been raised with me last week following everyone talking about Andy Murray and his movement towards retirement was actually where we go in Scotland with tennis because I think there's a great opportunity and I know you'll be aware of the discussions around the new elite centre in Stirling and actually I think the whole Murray family saying they don't feel that's the direction of travel specifically in terms of developing a wider pool of players and additional coaches across our communities so I just wondered in terms of not just tennis but in terms of a future model where would you like to see that go because I think in many sports we do have an opportunity to grow that. Stirling is a fantastic campus, don't get me wrong, but for people and especially for people taking their children from different corners of our country it's not particularly easy so I just wanted to find out your views on that in the future. I think it's an interesting point and it's probably a bit broader than that if you're looking at one aspect specifically in tennis around that high performance component that'll be at Stirling but it does link further down into what we do with tennis below that so what are they doing along the pathway with other partners and in the clubs and in those local communities and tennis is a very facility focused sport as you know we do have our indoor tennis fund which we are partnering with the LTA in Tennis Scotland on as well to expand that so whilst the high performance centre at Stirling will be one piece of the jigsaw in partnership with the LTA in Tennis Scotland it's not the only piece of the jigsaw and that's how we look at it systematically across all the sports there's the grassroots components that Stuart and Jacqueline have talked about in terms of getting children active and getting them participating and then how do they connect into those clubs where they're minded or motivated to try and become a world champion or a next world champion or get to the Olympics then the opportunities are there through the steps through those clubs and through those coaches into those development programmes as we'll call them that the Scottish Government bodies have and that's improved a lot and we are starting to see that through the performances ultimately at the top end we're seeing more athletes getting into GB teams more athletes representing Scotland and better performances on that world stage as well sorry final question in terms of you know the school estate and actually different schools because I think independent schools in Scotland still seem to be offering more opportunities how do you think we could you know if you had your your opportunity to say this has to happen in schools in state schools to actually have more access and you said mr harris you used to training in the evenings is there any opportunities we're not taking up to actually grow the number of coaches available within our school sector as well um probably a key premise for us is to see whichever facilities are available used to the maximum now what we're beginning to see around community sport hubs is exactly that so it's always difficult when you when we separate things we look at the school piece and the community piece but what what you see with a community sport hub is a clear connection with physical education with the after school programmes that we support with with active schools and then the an extended community programme and if i could see some of those schools and some of them are open to very late in the evening that's the way to take it forward so it's a it's a capacity issue and of course there are still some issues that we will continue to advocate to local partners about increasing that access and the school estate report that we did okay it's a few years old now but i don't think the principal will be a million miles away the the school estate is accessible it's open but there are still some there's still some capacity available and that's the piece that probably consistently over committee reports or committee sessions that we've wanted to continue to push that button to make sure we try and create more access to those facilities and it's all encompassing so there's all aspects of the community all aspect of programmes and if you know genuine offer if any of the committee members want to have a look at a community sport hub in the area we'd be absolutely delighted to try and facilitate that and you could see just what's beginning to happen in developing that community capacity going forward I think just another just on that convener just I think we have to recognise the work that our local partners and our schools and our teachers in schools are doing in schools for our children and young people and I think active schools is a great example students mentioned 14 years it's been there you'll see from the participation figures that 45 percent of the school role are participating from our equality standards it's given equal opportunities across all the areas that reach into the school so I think we have to acknowledge the work through education through our local partners around all of that and then the connection into the clubs into the community to try and give the pathways so those young people get the chance in school but they've also got the link into the club and most importantly is the network of people active school coordinators community sport hub officers and our officers in governing body to try and improve those opportunities so that there is parity around that and I think that's the real difference over the last 5-10 years of the system approach to that which is really encouraging along to where we are. Thank you. It's just a very very short supplementary it was just interesting jacling because Miles didn't pursue it any further as if I got this right you said 89 percent of school estate is being used and is accessible because that is a former councillor and now MSP you know that's not been the kind of what if you speak to sports clubs they don't believe that's the case but it's just if you can give me some more detail on that information. So the research we undertook was going out to all our local partners and they fed back in around what what the size of the school estate works on it and the information that we brought back then we spoke with our local partners about the ethnicity of that and how that was being used and then we worked with them to see what's planned and when I say did you say successful what I said it's accessible so when people are accessible and people are using it yeah but that's what came back from the research from that information from our partners do you know it's maybe not always what people want to be on in it that's happening in it but certainly was accessible that's what I mentioned earlier on is there is still some capacity without a shadow of a doubt and we we've always taken our view as a national agency that will work with all 32 local authorities we've got good reach good history good track record in doing that but that allows us really to get into those conversations because we've got the active school coordinators in every school we've got information on the accessibility and the use of there is definitely some capacity remaining and we need to work with each individual local authority to free the app to access it to plan the access because it really needs to be thought through about how you use your estate and where you have different types of activity a little bit sophistication actually reap huge rewards George Adam's question I think going to the things I would like to ask I believe say 89% of the school estate is accessible it's would you agree that it's when it's accessible and to who that's important so for example if it's if the estate for example for clubs from six seven o'clock in the evening I would suggest to you that the impact of having that estate available at four o'clock in the afternoon or half past even the school closes where the kids don't have to go home and then come back again is hugely important and has a hugely significant impact especially in the most deprived areas where cost is an issue is that something you would agree with I guess that's the planning application of the planning for that when we actually are looking and working with our local our local partners in schools around what's actually going on so what's happening from the three to six o'clock slot in schools what's active schools put on in the school time how's that then connecting to the clubs how do they plan and focus what's going on in the evenings and really it's all about going back to the kind of principles of community sport hubs what do local clubs and what do local communities want and that's where we've had some traction of really developing some of that so that that principle is exactly what we're trying to achieve it's not easy across all of the country you know we can't dictate that at all or where that is but actually our partners we're working with our partners to see where that can get better okay I think that's been of interest to a number of members and it'll be useful to us all I think if you were able to provide some more substance to that and particularly you mentioned the different time slots and so on I think that would be of interest to colleagues if you were able to provide that that'd be great Emma Harper thank you convener um good morning panel um I came across a spreadsheet from sports facility fund investment summary from sport scotland and over the 2014 to 2017 there seems to be 171 projects funded 32 are in my south scotland region which has finance ranging from 14 and a half thousand pounds to 300 000 pounds so it's things to do with 3g pitches installation tennis courts changing facilities so this would support community hubs as I suppose and I think this is actually a good news story about the amount that's been invested in places across Scotland but as I mentioned 32 in the south scotland region so I am keen to hear a bit of detail about the working with the local authorities in order to support these kind of further facilities well there's a there's a number of facets mean it's probably important to say that we've had an extended relationship with local authorities for almost 20 years now and all 32 so what we will do with them is try and connect into their local needs and their local plans for both the ambition to have people take part and in the access activity how they are going to try and do that so what's their local plan saying how that local plan is connected across the community planning process and we'll then try to add some value to that so where we where we see we can contribute we'll look to put in place active schools coordinators we'll look to put in community sport hub officers and the facility piece is very much based on needs locally we've had a good experience thank you for your comments about about the investment so far we've had we've invested a significant amount of resource over a number of years probably around about 168 million pounds over those years which is a lot of money we do believe though going forward that we'd like to to target this a bit more to really look at communities with socioeconomic challenge where we think we can produce and support the greater capacity to be built in some of those areas so in a feature of our new plan going forward we'll be to do exactly that is to try and work much more closely with local partners to meet their needs we're not an agency that dictates we're an agency that's partnership oriented to fulfil local needs and that will remain the case it's also if i'm being honest the most effective to achieve the outcomes there's no point in us putting something in place that doesn't fit what that local need actually is a couple of weeks ago i attended the under 18 ice hockey world championships for females in Dumfries at the ice bowl and it was fantastic and i had a chance to speak to bethany schoon who's the assistant captain for the great britain ice hockey team so she's the senior captain so it was interesting to hear the the challenges for you know getting young lassies to play ice hockey because of the cost of equipment and padding and you know all of that so how can sport scotland help support the the ice hockey teams because right now they're working well in partnership with uk agencies as well i think it's an interesting one and it's very it's very different challenges for different sports just in terms of the you know the cost to participate or the cost for equipment etc we we have through you know some of our lottery investment we have a award for all thanks jacklyn sorry had a mental block here we have awards for all where clubs can apply and it can cover things you'll like that whether they have equipment challenges or they want to train coaches or you know put people through additional training or support so that that's you know relatively small sums it's less than 10 000 pounds but it's for that it's based on that local need and it is community based as well and we've had you know a lot of success with that in terms of awards like that so the example you gave around an ice hockey club then that would be something depending on what their need is they can they can access that fund and that's an open application fund that we manage and we administer on that so that type of activity would be an example of it we also have direct club investment which is something that we've done relatively more recently in the last four or five years we've recognised that not all the challenges clubs and individuals face are short term or one year some of those require a little bit more of sustained investment and we have over a hundred clubs that we've supported with that and that can include a support in additional facility access costs for a period of time till they make it try and make it more sustainable or find ways to sustain it themselves it can cover additional coaching time and if that's needed as well and other support areas as well and that can be up to four years that investment and again that's that's an application based we have staff locally in the governing bodies and their own teams that can work with those clubs to work up those applications but again that's based on the need of the club and the community need locally for it as well. Just another additional question about partnership working in our briefing papers the word NHS isn't mentioned and the NHS is a big partner that social prescribing has become something that GPs are keen to participate so for health and exercise reasons and not necessarily competitive sport reasons so I'm aware that Tai Chi is something that people do to support pulmonary rehab and that's an issue that I think is worthwhile because it helps reduce hospital admissions if we can keep people healthy with their lungs and gravestone rovers and infrease provide support and coaching and time for people with mental health diagnosis to play fitba so and it's actually working really really well so I'm interested in any partnership working that may be developed with the NHS to look at this kind of social prescribing aspects of exercise and health but not necessarily to get people into competitive sport. There's a couple of elements I would probably probably talk about here we've tended not to look there's a lot of this going on locally huge amount going on locally but we wouldn't claim responsibility for that yes we've been part of those conversations but these are local partnerships what we're trying to do on a slightly bigger scale and I think the committee will be interested in this in the east end of Glasgow. There's been a consortium which includes NHS Greater Glasgow, it includes Clegg Gateway, community safety, Glasgow life, ourselves, housing associations. The conversation we've been having over the last 18 months is to look at how we can integrate all of our resources and we can all play a part in getting people active in that part of the city. Getting partnerships that actually mean something and are actually very clear so you've got the common outcome just getting people active as you say keeping them trying to keep people healthy particularly people who are not active this is for me the way forward it's connected back into that active Scotland framework that we talked about where every organisation in my view has a job to contribute to making the nation active it can't just be about sport so we're trying to develop and we're looking to our colleagues in active Scotland to try and develop some national conversations with us which you think would be more valuable but I would reflect to you that locally there are some fantastic partnerships going on. Jackie, you got some examples? I think one of the examples is the strategy that we've just pulled together in Dundee with Dundee and that's not just that it's a health strategy sport it's not that it's physical activity in health rather than just sport so in there NHS are leading in a whole area there around play and physical activity we've also got the sport element of that and that's an integrated strategy where we're seeing a lot of good projects locally that are being driven on the ground again and indeed the links to the hubs and the geographical areas and health input into that I think walking groups as well so the Dundee example of that integrated strategy which is about sport, physical activity and health and how we're really making sure health is connected locally is where most of that would go again and the one that Stuart's talking about in Glasgow is a real way forward for us as well so we've got a lot of those partnerships I think the important thing again for us as a community planning statutory partner as well is where we connect with the community planning partnerships and the health and social care partnerships and again very much driven by our local partners in their context so I know a lot of the work is going on in the highlands and islands around health and social care where they're really leading in a number of the strategies and sometimes on the health and sport strategy so we're looking at different approaches to that not only for communities but for the children and young people as well and I think that connect to the mental health area as well with SAMH there's a lot of work again not that we can take all the credit for that but a lot of that's our local partners and where we contribute to a lot of that so there's work going on we recognise there's still work to go on but you can see the difference in that real integration around national agencies and just a final question is it's about engaging older people so you talked about walking and there's obviously we've seen a rise in walking football and walking netball is that something that Sportscotland track the number of groups across local authorities to manage trends of increasing that kind of participation and we haven't tracked that yet but because of it's been quite I think you said yourself it's been a swift uptake in a lot of that but what we what we are doing this this new cycle of planning is trying to pick up with local partners and national partners about what would be good to measure to look at impact so there's probably a huge number of things measured the job for us now is to filter out those that actually mean something so that is an area getting older people engaged which I think is a much certainly got a lot more profile than it had before and that's a great thing because that message is really positive so we don't have specific data right now but we'll look to work with partners to make sure we actually get that in future. Thanks for go live projects where we've got some of these adults participation around walking football the table tennis and Aberdeen a lot of that we've done some evaluation around that so hopefully when that comes out that's something we can share with the committee because we're seen where we can get the inactive into more active and that focus of those projects 92 projects that are out there there's a number of those projects that show that and we'll have some information about that shortly. I just wanted to follow in from Emma Harper's question because it reminded me when some of us in the health and sport committee went to Avie More to visit the sports hub there and what I came away from was actually one of the best practices they had was staggering the classes so that grandparents taking their children didn't just sit at the side and watch them. In terms of that sort of best practice are you making sure that's being spread across Scotland I know in Edinburgh it doesn't feel like that in some of our sports venues in terms of it seems to be all classes start on the hour and so it then becomes more difficult for families to actually do exercise themselves good they're taking their kids there but how you have that intergenerational approach I just wondered in terms of best practice being spread. So we have a club and communities framework that we're trying across the country to give a consistency around that to share practice as part of our research approach we also as well as the data that Stuart updated on we also have impacts and interventions which is the stories coming from these groups and community where we're looking at best practice so the Highland example with the fantastic head head teacher there at King UC that is across the country there's lots of those examples and we share that so we share it with our local partners we share it around the networks of active schools community sport hubs I think and more importantly we also the connection between the local authorities and governing bodies is really important so that our governing body people are seeing that so again when we're looking at the planning and programming locally we've got these people acknowledging what's there because it goes back to the school it goes back to what goes on in the community at night and really what's those community needs so all of that we're trying to really integrate share practice and make sure that we know where good practice exists. Just to add slightly to that a review in our consultation with the community over the last six months has shown that the whole engagement of parents, carers, families has been key so our ambition in this next cycle coming up is to put resources into developing a partnership with education nationally and locally. My daughter goes to a Brace High School in Falkirk and the head teacher is always looking for parental engagement not just in parents evenings but to contribute to the life of the school so we think we can develop a both a national and local partnership with schools on the general aim of getting more parents engaged in the life of the school of which we think we will benefit sport and physical activity will benefit from that so that's something coming up just trailing that when we've always done a lot of local work on parental engagement but this is probably trying to take it to another level to scale it up as such everything we do is really about that national scale so taking some of those really good ideas and making it the principles accessible across the country so looking at outcomes in a national scale and over the last four years I guess a couple of things jump out in terms of movement or lack of movement one is that the number of young people involved in active schools seems to be pretty static over the last four years I think the numbers are around about 70 percent in primary school 30 percent in secondary school so maybe a lack of movement there where you might have hoped for some movement also that drop off between primary and secondary remains very significant I think the numbers of children meeting physical activity guidelines over the course of the week was is 45 percent in lower primary but below 20 percent by middle secondary and finally the gap between boys and girls particularly through formal sports clubs seems not to be closing I wonder what your reflections are on these important measures of success and what can be done to address them I mean this is a really interesting conversation it's probably important to say and we've had a number of conversations with the committee about this in the past there are those national figures household survey and the health survey which show quite a degree of overall it's quite static and there are some specifics that there are gaps but what we've what we've collected is data from every single school which is around active schools that's not specific around active schools there's a general point I would make here it can't just be our responsibility to deal with that you know so our work with education who have the young people in their care every day I think is important to continue to develop that so that we can look at what our contribution would be of course there's work to do but I we do see changes in those those trends and active schools boys and girls it's almost parity there around participation in active schools and that's just not the general population that's active schools is a program and I think that's that's important for us to look at of course we accept and and look at those national measures but a lot of our detailed work is looking at specific communities specific schools and looking at how they can look at improving and closing some of those gaps as you mentioned I suppose the question is yes there is partnership work between sportscotland and education but if it hasn't delivered the kind of level of change you might have wanted over the last four years what is it that you need to think about doing differently over the next four years but I would argue that active schools is a program and of course we would try and gauge more young people has delivered against that so there's a huge jump the statistics we can actually give you that most recent report as well I think it's important this may well be one that's important for your context so the intervention when we look at active schools as that intervention it has been hugely successful which is why we've kept it going for 14 years it's 12 million pounds of our budget there are there abouts for 14 years so for a national agency we wouldn't have continued to do that if that had not been working now we need to work around communities to bring more resources into more capacity into those communities to get people with the ability to access of course there's a mindset there has to be an incentive and an understanding for young people as I said earlier on conveyor my daughter's just gone into first year she was really heavily into dance and hopefully will keep her in dance and she'll get a huge number of new experiences in secondary school that's the aim that I think we've all got for for young people going through that school system but we think our interventions that we have specifically worked through with local authorities has been successful it simply strikes me that your own annual review reflects on active schools numbers really remaining static over the last three or four years even if within that there may be some positive trends can I ask on another point which is in relation to the measurement of physical activity in the health survey now clearly that's not your direct responsibility but you use that to measure your own performance there there may seem something odd about numbers which suggests that children aged 13 to 15 only 18 percent are meeting the physical activity guidelines as measured there but then when we get to look at adults from the age of 16 upwards the number meeting MVPA guidelines is as high as 65 percent now clearly these are not these are apples and pears but but is there a is there a need for a more consistent measurement between the under 16s and the over 16s in order to really track levels of physical activity as people grow up I guess we have to use the data that's available to try and data really helps us to begin to look at how we you're correct it's not just our responsibility but we've got a huge contribution to make we have to use that data to improve our planning against the outcome so if that's what the data is telling us then we have to improve that so we'll continue to look at various ways in which young people disengage and the key for us is to make sure when they want to re-engage that there's an opportunity to do that so you don't just accept the fact that there's that disengagement you have to find other ways in which the different points in that maturation of young people that they can be motivated both personally and through outside effort to see the benefits and it's it's we're we're quite simplistic and quite open about the world of sport world of sport it's not a technical term if you want to just run and jog if you want to swim with your friends let's just call it sport and let's just encourage as many people as possible to be with their friends that have fun and to improve if they want to improve so this needs to be the aim that all of us have the point you're making is a good one we all need to work closely together to try and improve the outcome of the the data that we collect one of the other areas for us is we know that active schools is then an offer to all children which is really so that universal approach is where we've been we see that 6% increase so over the 14 years year on year we see a small increase albeit a small increase but i think where we are now and then just where the whole agenda for young people is is around can we take a more targeted approach with some of our partners so we do know that the bell curve from that primary school into secondary school has stayed the same for for quite some time so again we've just finished a series of meetings 64 in total with the local authorities and their respective trusts around where they're going in the next few years and one of the things that's coming back there is how can we look at that 13 to 15 age group and look at the participation there what interventions can we have for girls and young women as part of that which is really important and what we've found out from that which again hopefully is a committee won't come as a surprise is what really works is when we consult with young people we've asked them so we've done a lot of work with a small group of girls and that there's some real examples up in Aberdeenshire down in south Ayrshire where we've set up girls committees to look at that and it's what do they want and what does that look like and we've suddenly we've put not suddenly we've recently put together a whole fit for girls it's a solution training so that we could go in and work in schools work in the PE departments with where physical education is work with active schools to see that that provision afterwards what does that look like and i think that's something that's just been repetitive over the last 10 20 years but i think what we're seeing is that intervention talking to girls and young women listening to them we hope that'll help change over the next period but i think we need to just monitor and evaluate that and the last thing we'll say on this is we're beginning now to look more closely at our stats around the equalities which perhaps we had generic so in the next few years hopefully we'll be able to come back and and create that picture as well and show that thanks that i have yes John Lurries follow on one of the other aspects to that i think it is important to recognise that some of the choices young people have when they get to that 13 to 15 age group and a lot of governing bodies and clubs have recognised that it's very difficult to retain and you know and maintain membership and from that young cohort so with that a lot of sports are looking at modified formats you talked about walking football and bounce back to netball has been two examples for older adults but sports are starting to look at how they modify the games you know make small sided games reduce the time commitment for the games make the games more inclusive and adapt to rules so it is something that the sports themselves recognise you know is a challenge because you know that the young people that take part in sport today are the older people that continue to do it for the rest of their life and that's really important for the sports generally as well thanks very much just back to steward harrison the point about the health survey and whether the they are measuring the right thing and whether it's reflected in the right way is this something that you're engaging with other colleagues on absolutely and as i said before convener the active scotland outcomes very much focuses everyone on that so there has been a change in the data just looking at the physical activity around children there's a 33 figure there which is a new figure so there isn't any trend data on that one it'd probably be helpful if that maintained the measure for the next week well because it then allows you to see the trends right and right at the moment it's a bit of a one-off figure but we continue to talk with colleagues the interesting thing is the active scotland framework it's on the website there's a dashboard of measurements on there that we can all own every sector in scotland can all own those and be part of a contribution to help get the nation active okay thank you very much brief supplementary David Torrance okay convener um you're mentioned about active schools there and participation of young girls do you measure the first sector and i'm talking about specifically uniformed organisations who are very very successful in getting young girls into sport and offer physical activity every week basically in their meeting halls and things like that because if you ever look at scout association and i will put on record i am a member of scout association we've got 51 000 members within scotland and we're offering that physical activity sport and outdoor activities all the time i guess one of the big things that steward mentioned earlier is our work partnerships and and we do have a partnership with youth scotland with youth sport trust and with young scot so again we are connecting to wider opportunities so the system just now if we just look inwardly at what sport contributes one of the things for us now is outside of that so we've had a really good relationship with youth scotland and the uniformed organisations bringing in how can we use sport to add value to what they do how does sport contribute to that so again the work now in the changing life through sport as well where we're beginning to look at different organisations coming around that table so that's where we see that opportunity to really work with young people if you're involved in those you know the difference they can make and one of the interesting things for us along what we also have is our young people sport panel and we're now in our fourth coniteration of that and it's just fantastic when you see this group of 16 year olds from across scotland from a variety of different backgrounds really helping shape and influence and because we're listening to their voice and just going to the girls and and boys participation the interesting thing for us around our leadership programmes young people sport panel young ambassadors the actual percentage of females taking part in the leadership is greater than actual boys so we get more girls and young women participating in leadership than actually participating there's something in that that I think we need to kind of look in and listen to so we're working with the young people to really engage that in the year of young people I think help bring a lot of organisations together to share what we're doing and share the value that young people have so I think there's a great opportunity because I think what John said they are the future participants they are the future of the leaders in our country so that's an area I think over the last five years we've really developed significantly and with our partners in education I'm always interested in in the in these surveys and the outcomes of these surveys because I suppose it's really depending on what question you ask you know I think the household survey I think it was a huge trick mist there in terms of what they were asking people are you active what they didn't follow up was why you're not active would you like to be active if you'd like to be active why you're not active I think that would have been much more illuminating I think but I'm looking here at the proportion of children aged between two and 15 who participate in sport and there's a huge market difference between the most deprived and the least deprived I mean there's a you know there's a 30 point spread there I mean 82 percent of children from the least deprived participate in sport compared to 52 percent in the most deprived and the interesting anomaly for me here actually is there's more girls participate in the least deprived area but there's less girls in the most deprived area so I think that there's something within that so I'm wondering whether or not you know we're asking the right questions there's gaps here in our knowledge for me it's it's around that why you're not active and and is there any work you think that's ongoing or or any what you would consider this is a great question again so we can take into account those national indicators there are a moment in time and they tell us a bit of a story but what we're finding is when we when we look locally at what's going on so a good story for me I spent a bit of time up in Inverness in the Inverness Academy cluster and the active school coordinator there hugely professional absolutely committed spent most of her time identifying those young people in that school in that community that were not active so through that work in the school targeting young people who she knew were obviously not participating at all began to shift some of that so for us it's very much about those local solutions the national indicators they tell us a story they're a moment in time picture so we'll we'll take that on board but what we're finding really useful is when you get down to and ask those questions and active school coordinators are mandated to continue to ask those questions so if there are young people not participating that's why not Jackie talked about hearing the voice of young people more and more we're listening to that but it's a local solution for that the national picture doesn't really help us talk about the primary school down the road or in my hometown of Dundee the school of state in Dundee doesn't happen we've got to really get into those schools which we've been committed to do over the last 14 years and I think it's shown some benefit we'll have to continue to do that going forward they talked about our connection with an ambition to get more parents engaged in the life of the school we will be targeting much more our asset our resource active school coordinators with partners into those schools we are maybe showing lower participation so we're going to try and increase the impetus get increase the resource available to those schools to try and get young people and give them additional opportunities that's all we can really do is plan better look at interventions that are both for everyone and also targeted we can't move that around so we think yes national figures tell us a bit of a story but i put a lot more store in what's happening in the individual schools and individual clubs and communities about activity and how people access it as part of our wider evaluation of the act of Scotland outcomes framework we did ask a number of those questions so we've got a report we can share the findings of that with you around some of the questions we've asked and particularly around some of the areas we have and show how that we have that information that's asked them how you feel in have you been inactive if you didn't do this so we can share that information with you I think if we cut to the chase I think we've discussed this before it's true I think that it's not rocket science here I think you know that you've discussed this idea of of linking up work within physical education with community in the club offer and for example I don't see the point of doing six weeks of introducing kids to basketball in school if there's no outlet for them locally and I suppose we talk about ease of access and the cost of access which we've alluded to today as well when we have a number of clubs especially posts to come with games with waiting lists so that tells me that there are kids out there who want to participate who are not getting that opportunity you've also talked about this idea of utilising the school estate more efficiently where I've never understood this idea of kids having to leave a facility go home and go somewhere else to participate when they're actually where they you know where the facilities are so I think what I'm saying to you is you know we're in general agreement in terms of the the direction of travel that we need to go in here so given the discrepancy between most deprived and least deprived what are the barriers to implementing that that kind of overall plan um well this this will this will definitely be a location specific Brian without any shadow of a doubt I'll probably just take issue with one of the things you said I'm a great believer that there's a connection totally you and I have talked with this a lot but if there's a demand from young people for basketball say and yet there's no club in the community then it's incumbent on those who are there to try and provide those opportunities to try and provide it in the community so that the connectivity would be yes it's taught in school it's part of a PE curriculum it's an afterschool club and then ourselves supporting local professionals should be looking to build a club now what what what we are seeing is that we're seeing in areas of socioeconomic challenge we're seeing participation in active schools with a positive intervention it's almost parity but what we do see is in the club infrastructure and here's the barrier for you there isn't enough capacity in those areas to allow young people the choice of participating in the community so we need to work with local partners the evidence is really clear that in school it seems to be working but across in the communities there's a lack of capacity so again going forward in our new cycle we would want to spend more time with partners looking at how we look to construct use the available resources don't have to be brand-smacking new shiny resources and facilities that are available in communities where there's a lack of infrastructure our part of that will be to bring governing bodies together as you can imagine if there are 10 sports wanting to talk to one community that's a bit resource intensive we can I think help this where we can maybe bring the governing bodies closer to communities but as a group and begin to look at how we build that capacity so it's pretty clear that if you take positive action and you make sure that there's a extended sustained long-term commitment as is in active schools physical education is long-term sustained part of education but there's work to be done in communities about how we build that capacity and give communities the opportunity I think that community sport hubs are a vital part of that where communities have the opportunity to do things for themselves with support to try and make opportunities available for their community and we are hugely passionate about that so we're changing the model around from being delivery oriented from local partners delivering programmes to actually trying to build capacity in communities which says that's your community here's the resource here's the support available you build it yourself and we'll help you to do that so the barrier for me is that infrastructure Brian there's just not enough of it to look to accommodate that demand but it's something we all have to get our heads around. We are very briefly just on that very point you've discussed around developing these community hubs but at the same time especially in the more rural communities you have council run facilities that are being shut and closed at a rate of knots surely that there must be a barrier to local communities participating in any kind of activity. I guess that some of the rural communities we've like acknowledged that and community sport hubs is a principle that's working really well in some of those rural communities by bringing people in the rural communities together to look at that. The one bit that I think just from what you said earlier Brian is around that barrier one of the things we need to I think improve if we're going to look if the least deprived is around professionals working in the system so sport I think we contribute something but what we really need to do in our work in changing lives is work with other partners so work with the community learning development work with the social work work with other groups and communities that see the whole life of the people the children and young people in these communities and really try to make a difference there and we've just got additional money again from government from Robertson Trust to look at partners is where we can actually look at this we'll just put out a million pound fund we've got 17 projects 35 partners that are going to go in and really look at this and a consortium working to really review it so I think that's one way we can look at some of the challenge and the barriers you presented in the areas of most deprivation which I think is new to the sporting world we've got to learn I think we need to be educated better we need to listen to others but we can bring that sport and physical activity component to really changing lives and making a difference so that there's a bit more parity in that we'll never change it overnight on our own and we recognise that thank you very much George Adam thank you convener perfect timing because my question is effectively going to be on national lottery funding but also regards to sports hubs in particular as well because it will affect the cut the ongoing year cuts of national lottery funding will affect those type of things as well and I was interested in what Stuart Harris said about every community in Scotland should have a community hub hope I haven't misquoted you because I totally agree with you because my in my constituency in Paisley we've got an area of deprivation in Fergusley park which is the lowest worst area and in that area we have some on football club right in the heart of Fergusley park and we've constantly worked in a programme to try and use the football club as a for the UWS for for West college Scotland general educational attainment as well using football club and sport and a multi sports complex as a way forward to actually trying to make a difference in that area and the one problem I do have in this whole project myself and 13 other fans 1300 other fans bought the club but we have a situation where we'll have a funding issue and obviously our first pair of people to go to would be to talk to yourselves and when we've built up the programme it would be to national lottery who have already said that they think this is a good plan the type of thing that they would invest in but we need to get it together but my concern and my question would be I wonder if you share this concern is projects like this with this year on year cut from national lottery funding it's projects like that that are going to suffer my big concern is that when we're trying to get this together the programmes like this it's not just us that are doing it's happening all over the country there's going to be an extra impediment an extra challenge putting your way um well let me agree with you I share your concern about the drop in national lottery funding just for context for the community three years ago we had 31.5 million we're now down projecting about 25 but let me reassure you um we when we have financial challenge we make sure we prioritise so again I can assure you sitting here community sport hubs the community element of what we do is a priority so we would look at other aspects of where we could make efficiencies savings or we may have to park something for a moment because of the prioritisation process that we have now as a ceo that's quite challenging for me to ask the team to do that everyone's sees important things in their own piece of work but it's really important that when we do have some challenges we do make a take a prioritisation process and we take it through a process of prioritisation and not just a salami slice approach so be reassured that's what we what we do so I would encourage we're encouraging communities to continue to talk to us about what's happening in those communities and we'd be we probably have more to do with football clubs I think I think there's a potential there we've got a conversation George that we're having with with Scottish Rugby about against similar methodology around bigger sports and their capacity to support other activity around that so hopefully I've reassured you the the issue around lottery is challenging I must thank the Scottish Government for the fact that they have committed to an underpin for the income and for us to allows the plan that's really positive because if we didn't have that 3.4 million pounds then the variable into planning terms if we have 31 million one point and we have 25 the next you could see how challenging that would be in planning terms so we we look forward to continuing to prioritise those kind of plans so if there's any conversation that's required we're happy to do so yep one of the one of the things just in the back of obviously he's mentioned about the Scottish Government doing 3.4 million to mitigate against these cuts because this government's already said we will in the budget we will work with sport Scotland to protect sports investment and ensure that the impact of continued reductions of the lottery income to mitigate against them now one of the things that when you're looking at all this can I ask you just just in more detail because you said that you would have to look at things in more detail and have to look at making savings elsewhere as well but what these continued cuts what is the impact on your delivery on a national level and been able to actually when you're looking at your programme and what you want to do you know can you just give us a taste of what it's like for you well it's actually very positive of course there are challenges around resources and choices that we all make but we use the outcomes that we're looking for we look at the impact we believe we're having through data results what partners are saying to us we use all of that so from our perspective our investments will have always been big infrastructure projects in the main so we're looking at active schools we're looking at community sport hubs these are all big priorities for us so we'll manage around those priorities will be as efficient and as effective as we can we'll always look at ourselves first if we have to make reductions about what where the resources are and it's really important that we continue to do that the key though is trying to get best value and again this is the this is the work that underpins everything we do and all of those circumstances is that partnership working so it's the combining of resources with local partners with ourselves adding some value to that and we think that that's in a pretty good place it will have to continue though and we'll have to redouble those efforts to make sure that we make the most of that and we'll continue to advocate to yourselves and others that sport and physical activity is a is a value for money product across the piece one final question very quickly is just the fact that just to go back to sports hub idea you know the whole idea of using our professional clubs we've found in Renfrewshire with some of the work that I've done with St Murlin and St Murlin community trust that young people in particular will gravitate towards the football club more than they would with someone a similar qualified individual coming from Renfrewshire council and is it not the case that we need to do more and more work like this with clubs like that in order to have that impact even not just in healthy lives and sport also with the opportunity of the educational attainment gap as well make sure that young people stay within education using sport as that catalyst yep no absolutely we would we've had lots of conversation with SFA we're always trying to encourage George as you can imagine the governor bodies to take on a lot of this role we can't do everything but for us we see as a national agency there needs to be a conversation with SFA and local clubs about the potential that football clubs can play along with rugby clubs there's a big infrastructure there in terms of facilities in particular that we need to start engaging i recognise the good work that's already going on now thank you very much David Torrance house how successful is sport scotland being on delivering on the outcomes set out in the 2015 2019 corporate plans are there any specific ones well just generally how successful do you generally we've we've aimed so the way we set out the plan so the plan is the outcome that we're always looking at is people taking part so we would look at how that happens locally and then we would also take a step back and look at what we contribute to that so our our assessment of that is that we have seen increases over each year around our big investments across active schools and community sport hubs we've seen process and system improvements around performance sport the interrelation between governor bodies our own staff at the institute about making better use of those resources and giving young people young athletes the ambition and the potential to to to step forward we've seen increases in the people we support directly and we could give you all the detail from our report on all of that so we feel that when you look at the system and just to remind the committee it was it's around schools and education clubs and communities and performance all connected we've got people and places and actually critically the stories that we all tell that really bring it all to life make it all happen and the partnerships we have are really important so we think it's been a positive four years we've reviewed all of that we've listened we had over 1200 contributions to our consultation some of which were encouraged to do more of what some of what i've told you and actually others telling us what about a little shift over here the parental engagement one came from big consultation input from partners across the piece so our job now is to build on that to take to government our corporate strategy going forward for pretty probably don't need the years because this is based on principles but from 19 onwards we want to build on the success we've had so far there are still lots to do though but the mechanism that we assess is the strength of our partnerships and we're governing bodies and local authorities and their partners we think we're in a good place yes there are challenges but as a national agency we are probably getting good results that we can reflect on because of the strength of our partners looking ahead he says you've had over 1200 individuals or groups reply back to you is there any of your priorities or change in sport scotland because of that input i mean we've always had an underpin of inclusion it's always had an underpin for us personally but what we feel is that we need to play a stronger role and this is quite a big piece in coordinating an inclusive effort into equalities so it's in and for us that the area for that we would be looking at is a massive priority which we've always covered it but we would now begin to target more resources from ourselves but also partners into areas of socioeconomic challenge that will be a a priority for us that underpins everything we do and it would be really important over time because i think we talked about trends earlier on if we can over time over the next four years begin to see some shift in the results of both the infrastructure available but also the impact of those infrastructures and by infrastructure i mean people as well as places actually begin to have thank you very much thank you and a very brief supplementary from Emma Harper thank you it's just to clarify what george adam was bringing up you talked about parking certain projects and using sport scotland money to underpin what has been reduced by uk government lottery funding or lottery funding so i'm interested are the projects that are parked the big projects like the 3g pitch that costs 300 000 or is it and then you'll fund weir projects across scotland how do you decide which projects to park well we we take a just trying to emphasise to committee we are we trying to take a needs-based approach so we won't make these decisions in isolation but we'll look at we'll look at what's what we have available the one area we have reduced that we haven't taken anything out is we've had to reduce our capital investment because that had a huge reliance on on lottery however in this moment in time i think we're going to look at it again and look at where we can get the best impact from the resources that we have both combined government and lottery resources and we're also beginning to look at how we engage with the private sector and look at how there may be resources made available there so we try when i'm talking about parking thing i'm not a huge fan of the word cut there's a strategy that you would have at a particular time that meets the needs in a particular area or with a governing body we'll look to try and prioritise what those needs are of course as i said earlier we'll continue to make the case that what we do and partners do is great value for money for the Scottish public purse and we'll continue to make those arguments and provide as much evidence we can as the case but in every business you you you'll probably talk to lots of people there are times where you will prioritise things activities over others and we have to just continue to do that on an annual basis it's probably the cycle that we work on we'll take up we're in the moment of a four-year plus look currently but we'll make those decisions based on what people are telling us and what we think the needs of the partners are we do not impose and we don't make we do not try and determine what local people want to do for themselves okay thank you thank you very much and can i thank the witnesses for their attendance this morning and for the offer to send us some further information as we've discussed thank you very much we'll suspend briefly and then take evidence from the minister in two minutes time instrument as is usual with such instruments we will have first of all we will hear from the minister and his officials with an opportunity to ask questions on issues arising from these regulations so may i welcome to the committee once again Joe Fitzpatrick minister for public health support and wellbeing good morning Robert Swanson qpm the chief inspector of crematoria Joanna Irving from the legal director and Cheryl Parris from the burial and cremation team at the scottish government minister may i invite you to make an opening statement thank you convener so i'm delighted to join you this morning to consider the cremation scotland regulations 2019 which will put in place a much improved framework for cremation in scotland and introduce new application forms for those applying for a cremation the death of a loved one is for most people one of the most difficult experiences we will ever face griefing impacts on each of us differently rising different emotions and affecting the way in which we make decisions it's crucial therefore that when a person dies each agency or organization involved at that time ensures their respectful and sensitive to the wishes of the bereaved maintaining the dignity of the deceased at all times in 2017 approximately 65 percent of all scottish funerals were cremations that percentage has been steadily increasing and is expected to rise further in future years cremation authorities and their staff therefore have an increasingly crucial role to play in the funeral market and in supporting the bereaved at a very difficult time in 2014 following the examination of practices relating to the cremation of infants in scotland lord bonomy published his recommendations for the future he noted that while the work of the infant cremation commission was confined to the cremation of babies and infants his investigation and recommendations may have implications more generally for older children and adults and this has proved to be correct and his recommendations as well as those made by Dame Elish Angelini's national cremation investigation will in part be implemented by these regulations the regulations standardise cremation practices putting in place clear and consistent processes at all cremations the introduce new requirements on cremation authorities which are specifically designed to prevent unacceptable practices that we've seen in the past failure to comply with these requirements is an offence under the burial and cremation scotland act and for the very first time we will set out procedures and timescales for handling and dispersal of ashes in line with lord bonomy's recommendations the increase record retention timescales from 15 years to 50 years guaranteeing future traceability for families they require cremation authorities to create and publish management plans which will improve transparency for the public as well as keeping accurate and up-to-date registers of each and every cremation that takes place each of the 30 crematoria currently operating in scotland will be inspected against these regulations annually by our inspector Robert Swanson qpm the regulations also introduce new application forms which distinguish between different types of cremation the forms have been deliberately designed in this way to be sensitive to the individual circumstances a recommendation of lord bonomy and a view that was supported by the local government and regeneration committee during the passage of the bill importantly each form contains a separate section on ashes creating a formal record of the applicant's wishes and introducing an additional safeguard for the applicant the regulations and forms were formally formally consulted upon in 2017 40 responses were received and all the responses were supportive of the proposed changes since the consultation we've engaged extensively with the commission's authorities and others in the industry and their approach has been welcomed by trade associations and business alike we've produced comprehensive government guidance for the industry and will produce similar similarly comprehensive guidance for the general public we're also developing training materials for cremation authorities and funeral directors to ensure that they are adequately equipped to support members of the public so i hope that members agree that these regulations bring about a positive change to an important industry that concerns us all with the with parliament support and i look forward to the regulations taking effect from the fourth of april thank you very much minister and uh uh one or two questions and i know one or two colleagues also do uh first of all you talked about procedures and timescales and purely some thought will have gone into the timescales that apply here uh can can you indicate uh how those timescales were arrived at and also there is almost an implication that uh uh cremation authorities and funeral directors may operate longer timescales than the minimum that you have set and again what is that level of expectation and how will that be communicated so um you're absolutely right in terms that these are these are the minimum timescales um the timescales that were arrived at were arrived at after discussion they're roughly the average of what is in place just now so clearly that means that in some cases they're much shorter timescales are currently being adhered to so this will give um a degree of continuity across the country and and kind of making sure that there's nobody that goes below these levels but so these are these are the average but i think it's likely that in some cases um some crematoria will will take a decision to go beyond beyond the minimum surely and in terms of the processes for contacting relatives to seek directions as to what should happen next how will that be done and what will happen if there is no response to those contacts yeah so um obviously the the flowchart details what happens at each stage sure um in terms of the initial four weeks and then a further four weeks and and obviously depends on where um you know which which part of the pathway you're following um the initial con the the the communication would in general be written so um that would normally be i think by a recorded delivery letter or email if that's the method that someone has indicated is their preferred choice of communication don't know was anything else you needed to no i think that i think that's um yeah that's that's about it so at the at the moment it's it's usually recorded letter just to make sure that the the letter has been received and has been has been properly received by the applicant um yeah if they decided that um they wanted to be contacted by electronic means then they could let the cremation authority or the funeral director know and as long as it's in writing and there's a record that those emails have been sent um then that's good enough for for the make the implication i suppose of of the the flowchart is that where there isn't a response it's taken that there is no instruction or no intention to collect ashes is will there be a way of confirming that impression or will that simply be a procedure that crematoria and funeral directors will have so there's then an additional four weeks so i mean i guess that there is a degree of you know how many times would you keep keep trying and do you hold ashes ashes forever so this is about getting a degree of consistency consistency before the ashes would then be scattered so the ashes aren't lost and obviously all that information is recorded so if for for some reason you know 20 years down the line somebody comes back and want to be able to show their respects to a loved one that they've maybe had lost contact with they will still be able to do that because they'll be able to a record of where the ashes were scattered yes but i think that's important in terms of but there isn't an additional fallback if you like i mean clearly one of the issues that arose in the cases we know about is where in some cases families have been very distressed and haven't responded to official communications in a timely manner that clearly is going to be a continuing risk but you're saying essentially there'll come to a point when you can no longer yeah and so i think that's why there's you know it's not just the four weeks it's it's that and then there's other checks and other checks and going going down perhaps worth mentioning and that of course you can only be dealing with the applicant and there is very good reasons for that especially when you're looking at pregnancy loss for instance and such like so you can't really go knocking on neighbours doors etc to see about something that is confidential in the extreme so you have a means you have a means of communication and you simply stick to that means yes i mean the new forms give that extra information you know emails didn't exist as far as their requirement in the past so that was a line of communication that they didn't have so they have the email they have the telephone that they can pass a message say contact us as well as they have the home address now so they've got these three areas. Thank you convener and thank you for coming minister and thanks for the opening remarks it's just a couple of questions can you outline what where we are in terms of the support offered to the families that were caught up in the original scandal around the the baby ashes? The on-going support. At the time the Scottish Government gave money to support agencies I suppose to help families who had come forward who would like counselling or other other support in whichever way they can. I think we are at a stage now I haven't certainly heard for some time of families who have been looking for new support there are still families who are having on-going support. Sans Lothian is a charity that springs to mind and that continues to support some families so that the support still exists where families need it. I don't know if the demand is quite as high as it was initially but the support is still there if families need it. Final question I mean it is clearer than I thought it was in the schedules but in respect of stillbirth and the 24 weeks cut off I mean there's obviously forums A3 in the schedules around cremation guidance that exists A3 and A4 which are either the mother or nominated individual can sort of take charge of the process or the hospital. Is that entirely left down to the family as to whether they want the hospital to deal with the disposal of remains or they want to take that into their care? Yeah I think that's a really important point and it's I think why it's important that we do have the different forms so it's an appropriate form depending on the particular circumstances and also the the different registration. Do you want to say anything for Laurence? Yeah so absolutely it's for the family to decide so when they are in hospital they will have a conversation with the hospital staff and they can decide at that point or after because we don't want to put any time pressure so at that point or after whether they want to arrange the funeral themselves and they can go away and do that and for stillbirth I think most people do or lots of people do or if they wish the hospital to arrange an individual burial or an individual cremation then they can ask the hospital to do that. And they can come back after a period of time and say actually we would like the ashes or? Yes and they and they get yes if it's a if it's an individual cremation and they can they can see the upfront that they would like the ashes so yeah we can get those. So specifically on the forms there's there's obviously a part about about the ashes on on all of the forms but understand that if someone won't be begetting it will be clear. Is it made clear to the family that if they you know obviously it's a very difficult time and time of grief that they just say look I just want you to deal with it I don't want to know about it and then if they change their minds or is it made clear to them what will happen to the remains of stillbirth or stillborn baby part of 24 weeks? Yes yes it's made clear to them upfront what will what will happen and all the forms contain this so there's hospital forms as well that the families will go through with staff and it's absolutely made clear to them if they choose this option this is what will happen if they choose this this is what will happen. Okay thank you convener. Thank you convener good morning everybody I'm interested in the the infant cremation commission which was chaired by Lord Barnumay and he made 64 recommendations all of which were accepted by the Scottish government so I'm interested to know have all the recommendations of the commission been implemented and are there if not are there still some that need to have further progress? So there's a large number of recommendations which have already been implemented and there's 22 recommendations which will be implemented along with these regulations on the 4th of April and some other regs on the 4th of April and that leaves I think there are five which are they've been implemented but they're on-going recommendations so like for instance where the recommendation is that we keep under review so obviously that will never be complete because we have to do that on-going and then there's a further five which have not yet been implemented and three of those would be implemented under the code of practice that we would intend to bring forward for cremation authority so as that's being developed then three would be dealt with under that and the fourth recommendation number 40 is one that we're working with in relation to software so we're working with crematerium authorities to ensure that software can be developed to help the crematorias meet the requirements of the regulations going forward and then there's also recommendation 56 which relates to a national which asked us to consider whether there should be a national memorial and I think we've said that you know if there was a major demand for that then that would be something that we should consider right now there hasn't been I know there's a specific memorial being erected in Edinburgh and that might be the way that people want it rather than a national memorial and I think we need to be mindful of of what people's wishes actually are so okay and just a final wee question and the the Scottish Government's the website with the information about updates or review or anything that will just continue to be updated so that people know where to go to for information yes okay thank you very much Miles Briggs I just wanted to ask in terms of all crematoria now in Scotland is it my understanding that all are now able to and are in a position to recover baby and infant ashes is that correct? Yes as I understand 100 but maybe Robert do you want to give a bit more? Yes that is the case and I'm pleased to say that it's almost four years ago that I was appointed which was really on the back of the Mortonhall issues to be perfectly honest there's been 100 recovery of baby and indeed adult issues since that time not entirely down to the appointment of me there's been so many other changes has taken place on the back of that for instance baby modes have been fitted as well as additional training has been put into place there's an appreciation of what has been happening and the staff have clearly alerted to all of that so there's a lot greater care there's a lot of more strict management guidance being given there's lots of instructions and guidance given and a lot of what's in place at the moment is there it's not going to change all that much with the regulations the difference being is at the moment is the goodwill that they're actually all complying with what they're being asked to do the difference being that there'll not be a request, there'll be a requirement and that's the major change so in all honesty it's come on a lot because license has been taken off all the problem areas and the problems that were seen and were well documented during that and they've all been contributed towards the success that we have and I say it is a success but it's what should be and what's expected quite frankly and there is no real reason now given the definition of ashes that there will be instances other than perhaps mechanical failure which you can't overlook and can happen it has not happened to that extent so far one of the issues which was raised at a cross party group on funerals and bereavement was with regards to porpo's funerals as they are known in terms of no one coming forward and then the state paying for that cremation state place is this the same protocol and how in terms of contacting nobody who's registered what's that protocol would you follow in that regard yeah sure so the primary legislation actually has a provision in there which will replace in a set of commencement rights that will hopefully will come in at the same time as these which will replace the national assistance act so it's for local authorities to pay for and arrange the burial or cremation where there is no next of kin or there are next of kin but they cannot for whatever means arrange that so what these regulations do is set out a new application form and there have been some concerns in the past for example where ashes haven't been returned to a next of kin so where there's a next of kin but the local authority is arranging funeral ashes haven't been returned and this form makes sure that ashes will absolutely be returned so where there's a next of kin the local authority must ask the next of kin what they would like done with the ashes how they'd like them to be handled and if they want them to be returned then they will absolutely be returned so I think these regulations strengthen the position of next of kin but still allowing local authorities to be able to fulfil their requirements under the act and could I just finally ask in terms of the timescale around you know we mentioned four weeks or eight week period you know where that was arrived at especially I think members of the committee were maybe concerned that when people are in mourning you know four to eight weeks can sometimes be them being disturbed still and not ready to pick up these ashes so I just wondered in terms of flexibility because I think from a lot of constituent cases I've had there has been that flexibility in the past for people to say when we're ready and so to make sure that that continues and not being too descriptive so that would absolutely be so if somebody got back saying yes I want these ashes but can I get a bit more time then you know I think in practice that that's something that is is respected now what what these regulations do is put in place an absolute minimum so if that of the haven't made contact but but clearly that's the absolute minimum that we're regulating for where is currently there isn't an absolute minimum and in some cases it's less than the timescales that we are putting in place I mean they are very very flexible you know out of the 30 crematorium at the moment I mean there's one I can think of they've got a six month retention policy a nationwide one so I mean but they're flexible I mean we've had it where it's less than that but for instance they might say that my brother's coming over once for summer holidays from Australia could you hold on to the ashes until such times this year that is not an issue at all but there has to be some guidance because experience has shown us from the historic side of things that ashes which are uncollected and are allowed to remain in that state that actually measures if I was to put a number on it it would run into thousands of historic and it's not right that these ashes should be kept up in in storerooms etc around the country in funeral directors or indeed in in attics in crematorium for instance so the legislation is very much geared for moving forward and it's worth saying that the opportunity is also taking and is on going to address the historic ones because we feel there has to be something put in place there as well some arrangement but from a practical side somebody has to deal with it and somebody has to there will be costs involved if it's going back to crematorium for instance to where a person was cremated somebody has to spend time to then do something with the ashes not all crematorium scatter some of them will only entail so there's all of these issues as well they don't all do the same thank you very much and finally minister you indicated the intention was that the regulations would come into force in the fourth of april when do you anticipate the code of practice being published so we'll start working with crematorium once these regulations are in place and that would be the basis of that's the legal basis so then we'd want to work with the industry in that code of practice but as mr Swanson said there is already a code of practice in place so this is about putting updating that and putting it on a legal basis so there's no gap excellent thank you very much that's very helpful we will now move to agenda item three which is the formal debate on the affirmative instrument on which we have just taken evidence can i remind all present that it is now for the minister to move the debate which to move the motion which i shall invite him to do in a moment the officials will no longer participate and members who wish to participate and speaking the debate should catch my eye minister can i advise you to move the motion s5m 15440 formally moved thank you very much any member wish to participate in the debate uh if not uh i of course the minister may wish to sum up but there is uh we've covered all the territory uh so the question is now that the motion s5m 15440 be approved are we all agreed we are agreed thank you very much and thank the minister and the officials for their time thank you very much and i move on to agenda item number four uh which is also subordinate legislation consideration of a negative instrument the burial and cremation pregnancy loss prescribed information informed scotland regulations 28 in uh that's ssi 28 in 384 there has been no motion to annul and the delegated personal law reform committee has not made any comments on the instrument do any members have comments which they wish to make at this juncture if not is the committee agreed to make no recommendations in relation to this instrument that is agreed thank you very much and we will now move into private session