 Hello, everyone. Good afternoon. Thank you for being with us today and joining this webinar organized by School Education Gateway European Toolkit for Schools, which is running a webinar series on promoting inclusive education and tackling early school living. So my name is Ina and together with me, they are my colleagues today, Isminia and Eleonora, and we're supporting this webinar. Today we'll have very interesting discussion on the school systems that need to change in order to tackle early school living and improve social inclusion in education and society. And in our speaker panel today, we have Erna Nersweirth, who is Associate Professor and Head of the Education Sciences Group at Vienna University of Economics and Business. She has designed, conducted and published numerous studies on education and inequality. Also in our discussion, Dr. Pere Kornhol, he's an independent author, lecturer and consultant in school development and education. So I'm very curious to listen to our speakers today. And as usual, I want to point out that our sessions are recorded and we'll be able to review the recording on the webinar page in the next couple of days. We'll be also publishing the slides of our speakers, so we'll be able to come back to it and review the information given in the webinar as well. So if you have any questions, please feel free at any point of this webinar to post them in the chat box and we'll try to address as many questions as possible in the end of the webinar. So Erna, if you are ready, I'm happy to give you the floor and start this webinar. Thank you. Oh, thank you, Inna. And hello, everyone. First of all, I'd like to thank the organizers very much for inviting me to speak on what we consider to be an extremely important topic in the field of education. It's a great honor and I'm happy to be here. As you know, I'm Erna Neyertswirt and I'm one of the co-authors of the report called Structural Indicators for Inclusive Systems in and Around School. Today I would like to give you a brief insight into what this report is about and also show you how you can think about the structural indicators in your school and in your country. Just for your information, we use the terms inclusive education, inclusion in education, and inclusive systems interchangeably. So what is meant by an inclusive system? What does a school with an inclusive system look like? And what are the structural indicators which show if your school and also the educational policy in a country is inclusive or not? These questions are the questions we shall be dealing with today in this webinar. There are two points I'd like to mention. Firstly, when we talk about this framework of structural indicators, we are not talking about a legal obligation to implement them. Rather, they are intended to contribute to a more inclusive system which will in turn help to prevent early school leaving. In fact, we can see this as a main goal of these indicators to provide structures for all learners so that they feel integrated and not be driven by feelings of isolation that may lead to early school leaving. Because as you all know, the lack of formal education is something that has a really negative impact on the individual itself but also on a society. And of course, early school leaving is at the root of many social problems. So, whom is this report meant for? Well, it is intended for national policymakers, evaluation experts, regional and local authorities, school leaders and teachers. And of course, I also want to say hello to my students in Vienna. We wrote this report for all agencies and institutions who are interested in making their school or their school system more inclusive. And I have to say that the indicators we developed are all based on profound research findings. Here you can see seven dimensions for inclusive systems and how these work towards preventing early school leaving. And I would like to give you an example of what can happen and sadly so often does happen to students who find themselves in a system which is not inclusive. I shall use the story of Ismael today who was a typical vulnerable student as an illustration. While I am telling the story, you will see on your screen structural indicators as examples. Ismael was part of my longitudinal qualitative study on early school leavers. He was born in Vienna. At the time we interviewed him first, he was 18 years old. His parents grew up in Turkey and you probably know that a large population in Austria has Turkish backgrounds. It was apparent from the first interview that Ismael spoke very fluent German and that he was in fact bilingual. This ability as well as his interest and potential talent for art was, as we shall see later, not appreciated, which brings us immediately to a key principle of an inclusive system, namely building on strengths of students and not on their deficits. So next, Ismael's social economic situation was restricted. So we see that overcoming poverty related barriers to education is vital for an inclusive system. There are a list of indicators in our report. For example, that children get breakfast at school. There should be targeted individual support, which can include financial support, for example, free school materials. These are of course just examples. The report offers a collection of many more possible indicators. Here it is important to mention that the indicators can be continuously adjusted to the respective situation in your school or in your country. Because of Ismael's social restrictions and also the language barriers, his parents were not able to help with his schoolwork. This of course occurs in many immigrant families, which is why it is so important that an inclusive system recognizes the significance of family support, especially for vulnerable students or those who are marginalized. For example, this can be through family support systems like community centers. But when the parents are for some reason not able to attend the school actively, then the system should provide an outreach approach. At the end of the first class in primary school, Ismael moved with his family to another district. Again, our report shows that in such cases, there should be close cooperation between schools, induction programs and targeted support for children who are facing difficulties during transition from one school to the other and adapting to the new school environment. Cross-school cooperation is a key feature of positive transitions across schools, especially for marginalized students. Students with lower ability and lower self-esteem have more negative school transition experiences, which in turn leads to lower levels of attainment and higher levels of depression. An anxious students also experience more bullying. Never forget that school climate is a key indicator for any successful transition in schools or between schools. Well, Ismael didn't receive enough of this end in the new school. He began to be bullied because his German was not perfect yet. Bullying is a form of violence and often plays a role in early school living. This is also a strong argument for a holistic approach, which means focusing not only on academic education, but also on social, emotional and physical needs of students and their parents and also being aware of signs of discrimination. This is philosophy. This philosophy is behind every inclusive system. At his new school, Ismael was finally able to join a support class in German. He learned German quickly. Unfortunately, it seems that this support came too late. One of the indicators, which refers to this problem, as well as those mentioned above, is the need for support for teachers to develop their cultural diversity competence in working with minorities and migrants. This training would help to prevent stereotyping, prejudice, labeling and other forms of discrimination. It is also important that teachers have the same expectations from all their students and do not lower these expectations when it comes to marginalised groups, as this is also a form of discrimination. So, in spite of Ismael's progress in learning German, he had to repeat the second primary school class. From this point on, his school career became an ODC. In the new middle school, he even had to repeat two classes. That means that by the end of these eight years at school, he already had to repeat three classes. We all know that removing children from their own age group has a strong demotivating effect. It is in fact recommended that children should be in the same age group as their peers, because then they feel more included. Unfortunately, repeating grades is still widespread and many countries seem to be resistant to changing this system. It seems also that Ismael was often silenced. In fact, he told us that one teacher said to him, sit in the back row and be quiet. This is a form of violence. It is of course not physical violence, but it is an exclusion which is often accepted as a normal course of events. And as we know from many interviews and other qualitative studies, this is still used by some teachers as a sanction. The sociologist Pierre Bourdieu described this as symbolic violence. As happens with many school leavers, Ismael had started to truant. We know from research that responses to early warning signals like truancy should be fast and include the pupils, the parents, and the professionals. Also, individual action plans have to be created to help and guide at risk students and their families. Obviously, the school staff plays a key role in recognizing early signs of disengagement. And just as important are multidisciplinary teams. That operate for early warning and quick intervention. But multidisciplinary teams are also important in regard to health and welfare issues in education. So after this, Ismael got pushed from one educational institution to another, including training programs. By this time, he had already become a chronic truant. This led to his being dismissed from several programs. Of course, it is clear that somebody with Ismael's background that is an early school leaver is more at risk of being negatively judged and in fact stigmatized. I'm not going into all the details what happened afterwards. Briefly, Ismael never really found his feedback in education or in society, eventually because of his history and again the stigmatization that went with him. He withdrew himself more and more from society. He developed unrealistic ideas of becoming, for example, a musician or a star polka player. And because he was a sensitive person, he also suffered guilt feelings about being a burden to his mother. And he became severely depressed at the end. I would like to remind you that we are talking about a boy who had above average intelligence and spoke German as well as most Austrians when we interviewed him. A sad part of Ismael's story is that he showed a lot of interest and talent for art, which unfortunately was not encouraged enough. Here is a collage Ismael created when he described his vision of his future life. If you look at it, you will notice that he did not connect the different segments. The collage shows a segment that obviously illustrates his hostile group, the police and politicians. You can see that he even crossed out these images. This could be associated with a decreased democratic awareness and a loss of trust in public institutions. It is very interesting to see what Ismael has left out. All areas of work, school and further education. This could be interpreted in a way that he was already at an advanced stage of distancing himself from these fields. But what we researchers also noticed is that art was drawn very large and even framed. In fact, he could express his visions very clearly through his artwork. I would emphasize, as we saw previously, that a number of studies have reported that arts programs can be important to enhance feelings of inclusion. I shall end the rather tragic story of Ismael, who for us represents far too many early school leavers by quoting from our report, which I think sums up how inclusive systems in school should work, in particular in regard to pupils who are vulnerable. Pupils with learning difficulties or those who face personal, social or emotional challenges often have too little contact with education staff or other adults to support them and their talents. They need easy access to teachers and other professionals who support them in their educational and personal development. They also need guidance and mentoring together with cultural and extracurricular activities to broaden their learning opportunities. Report that I have been talking about in this webinar is integrated in the European Toolkit for Schools in two ways. Firstly, you can download it as a full report to read and secondly to use as a self-assessment tool. You can find the self-assessment tool in the European Toolkit for Schools in the section about. Here you can see the results of one self-assessment in an Austrian school. The result is shown by a traffic light system. Green means your school has already implemented many of the structural indicators of an inclusive system. Yellow means your school is already to some extent exclusive, but there is still room to expand further. Red means your school is still in an early stage of becoming inclusive and has some way to go. You will notice that the school has already achieved a lot in section parental involvement and family support. However, the school is still at an early stage regarding the whole school approach to inclusive systems. As part of the self-assessment, you will be given a personalized report with examples of ways to further improve your system. And please always bear in mind that the goal is to make school a place where all students want to stay and become lifelong learners. I'd like to say that we as and also the European Commission see the implementation of inclusive systems as a kind of work in progress. It is not a fixed system and it is obviously not going to happen overnight. The report and also the toolkit which includes, beside the self-assessment tool, many other good practices to make your school an inclusive place. Well, thank you very much for listening. Excellent. Thank you so much, Arne. It was really inspiring. So we will open the discussion straight away. Bear, would you like to take the lead? Yes, I would like to share my slides. I'd like to just thank the organizers for this for having me. It's a great honor. If everyone sees my slides, I will start just to give a few comments on what Arne said about the indicators for inclusive systems. And I will give just a few thoughts about these indicators. And then I and Arne will have a discussion and we will then open the floor for questions. So what I wanted to say is these indicators that we because both Arne and I are part of the editorial board for the toolkits for schools, these are included here so to be used as a tool. It's something that you can use to investigate your own school. It is important always to remember that it's not a manual, it's not a guidebook for how to do things. But it is something that can challenge you. That is, if you use the assessment tool or read a report, you will probably be challenged. You would see that it says something. It says something about you and your school that would be maybe challenging. And this could be, you know, the first step towards seeing things differently. You know, there is no change in systems if we don't accept that there can be a challenge that we can have a problem. If we think we are perfect, there is no way to change. And I would like also then to connect to the last week's webinar. I don't know how many of you who've viewed the last webinar, if you haven't, please take a look at it. But Kotast was also very much about the tool that you can use to see yourself and your organization, your school, or your system in another way. But when they were talking about how students could make inquiries, could be researchers of teaching that teachers are making really to involve students. And that is very much what these structural indicators also are about. How do you create the environmental whole school approach where every voice of every person in this community is really heard? I know that Erna has some students probably listening and she asked me how is this working in Sweden that this system? So I thought that I would just give a short presentation or short this slide. Just talk a little bit about the situation in Sweden as an answer to that question. Because we are having this European webpage and we have very many different countries with different systems. And sometimes we point out one system or another as a good system, another as a bad system. I think it's very important to see that we have strength in every system and we have weaknesses in every system. When it comes to Sweden, if you look at it superficially from the outside, maybe somebody would say you have a very inclusive school system, you have a very high ambitions, and for some parts we have that. We have had an thought about inclusion for a very, very long time. It was really what our school system was built around starting in from the 1940s and forward. So in that respect, for example, we have had free lunches in schools for a very, very long time. No kid has to go hungry in a Swedish school because there will be lunch. We still need to provide breakfast to poor kids in some schools, but still we have free materials for everyone. We don't use great repetition and stuff like this. I'm telling you this because there is a strong notion, there is a strong emphasis on inclusion on every student's right for a good education in the system and in the legislation around it. But the realization, all these high ambitions in the legislation and in the history of the school system, that could be a totally different story because we are also a system that is very diverse. It is very decentralized and also marketized. We have different forces in the school system. How the school works actually in one municipality is not the same as it works in another municipality. How one school leader, could you say, translates the legislation and the curricula or how a teacher does this in one school is of course different than in another school. And this is what we are facing in every system, a great variation. And when you come to the inclusion as such, if we look at inclusion in a more narrow context like in is children taken out of classes, of the normal classes, to be treated in special you know special education classes and stuff like that. That is one definition of inclusion exclusion. You can exclude children by putting them in special classes. That sometimes in Sweden we have the notion, the ideology of the school system is to be included. But we still have exclusion of course. But this very good thing about inclusion that we should bring all kids to be together. That is also sometimes used not for the benefit of children. Some children that actually would benefit from being excluded for some time are not excluded, are not given maybe the proper training that they would need for a short time outside of a normal class because it's cheaper to have them in the big class. And sometimes because we have a marketized system, actually some students are excluded because somebody is running a school for profit and earning money out of the excluded students with special needs. So what I'm telling you now is not a horror story and not a description. I'm just trying to problematize that in every system there are ambitions, but there is also a reality created by the diversity of the system. And what is what I want my point here is that when at the end of the day the most important thing about all this is that that you in wherever you are whatever position if you're in a national legislative, political system where if you're a teacher down in a school or a caretaker in a school the main thing is how do we treat the people the kids that we are that are put in our trust that we have a child centered approach is the most important thing here. I have a friend who has worked with the worst with the children in Sweden that are the most difficult to teach. Those are children that are actually locked away because they are a danger to themselves and to their surroundings. I mean this is really really really the hardest cases that we have. And he discussed with these kids he listened to them he talked to them and he talked to them in in actually a couple of years is a very long study he did. What you could see that were that were some of them this exclusion that they were taken out of their normal classes and stuff like that was the thing that made them lose all hope in society that made them take away out take the way out into criminality into drugs etc. But for some actually the exclusion was what in the end saved them. So what I'm trying to say here is that you don't know what works for all children but you need to know what works for an individual child. You need to have that child centered approach that is the child that you meet in schools. How do they what do they respond to that is your responsibility in a way. And why I'm saying this is because I would like to earn I gave us now a framework around Ismael a story that didn't turn out very well. I would like to point you to towards three actually very very successful stories about inclusive schools and those we also have on the toolkit web page. If you saw where Erna was having that she showed you where you could find a self assessment tool in the same menu you can also find videos. And if you click on that video you can go in and you can show the three reports that we have on good practices to tackle early school living. And this I think is really really interesting and I would strongly recommend everybody that's listened to this to go in to see to look on these three films. And if you don't have any good you know it's Friday night today and if you don't have any feel good films on your repertoire on your on your padlet or wherever you look on film say on the Netflix you you really want three feel good films. This is something that you actually could choose for a Friday evening because what you see here are three very different schools in very different settings. It's a school from Kalsvaj small town outside a small town school in Sweden that you will find another school in Barcelona in Spain in a little bit of circumstance from the Swedish schools but you will see how they work to make every child. And then you will also see a film from Manchester in England and you see a story that will make actually will give you tears when you see how these teachers and personnel around the kids in that school saves lives and saves futures. And that is what you will see you will see that these are totally different schools. They use totally different approaches. They are in different school systems but they have one very strong common denominator. There's something that is the same in all these free schools. It is a a strong ethical leadership from principles that creates whole whole school climates where actually every child counts where children with problems find someone who actually cares for them. It's some places where principles teachers and other personnel walk that extra mile to make a difference for an individual child and for every individual child in their schools. It's not easy. Nobody is saying that this is easy but the results for these kids and for society in general is profound. It's very very important. So I would like to kind of also remind you because one of the things in the indicators that I think a little bit problematic sometimes is a focus on parents and cooperation with parents. I think that you should absolutely work and cooperate with parents that you would work with the cultures of the children to develop a strong bond between schools and homes and all that but you need always to remember that for many children in our schools the school is their only safe place. That is the only place where they meet grown-up people that could take care of them and that could show some responsibility to give them some kind of rest from the chaos that they actually could be living at home. So it's you are their only possibility to meet and create another future for themselves and in society. So that is also one of the reasons why we need to make sure that our schools are working even if the homes are not and that's the reality even if we don't like it to be that. So that was my final just a comment on this. I would like to now leave the presentation and I would like to discuss this a bit with Erna first and then we will let have some questions from the audience. Erna when I when I think about this there is one aspect that is often very mentioned in in these kind of materials and also in the European circles I mean you know different European circles and discussions. Everybody's talking about a whole school approach. I also did that. What is that? What is meant by a whole school approach? Actually thank you Pierre it was so interesting what we were talking about the Swedish case and I absolutely share with you let me start with this maybe that of course there are best practice schools in every country good practice schools and I would like also that all teacher training students and all teachers and principals work on an inclusive system. And I think also that it's also good for teachers to work in an inclusive system because when they work in an inclusive system in a care system they also feel more comfortable and there is also dropping out of teacher a high fluctuation of teachers and if you work in an inclusive school system you have it much it's a much better working place also for teachers. But let me come back to your question now it's about how do we understand a whole school approach. Actually it includes a philosophy that in that the entire school community is included and works together and what is the school community the school leaders the teaching and non-teaching staff the learners parents and families they all should engage in a cohesive collective and collaborative way and also cooperate with external stakeholders and the community at a large and this is why we also have developed a wide list of indicators on a whole school approach which you can find in chapter eight of the report. I can just I just would like to give you some examples maybe yes you do have to work on a positive school climate and a classrooms climate so what is meant by it it's for example a welcoming environment when for example if I talked about being a Ismail who was true and sometimes when students come back to school they are criticized and also for these students who are true and it is very important that they are accepted and they feel welcome again or what that a school coordination committee is established in the school to develop an inclusive system on to develop it further the list of inclusive indicators or structural indicators I showed are only examples and as I told you that for each field it's different and every field and this is also why the community is so important should develop structural indicators and add some further indicators which are of interest in this special field they are working in and it's also important for example that students and parents are directly represented in a coordination committee and so on but it's some I only gave you some examples arts education is also one and also supporting extracurricular activities also with external stakeholders or non-profit institutions or organizations for example with Ismail I can want to come back to this case of our study Ismail didn't feel recognized or neither in school nor in society for example if he worked in a non-profit organization as a volunteer for example just reading a book to somebody who doesn't have anybody in a home for for example older people he would have felt that he has a position in society and he is worse he is somebody who contributes to society all these things we are all these factors are very important when we talk about whole school approach we see that in the movies I think it's an interesting aspect aspect of this in the Swedish schools we can see that they really for example they were hiring people that actually went and picked up kids at their homes so that they come to schools they make they work that extra amount we saw that in in Barcelona there was a heavy heavy work with getting parents to be involved in schools actually in the classrooms you know they were really really working together with the parents in this very you know vulnerable neighborhood where they were situation and we can see how the Manchester school was you know really working with with with tackling poverty not at least in this in the sub in the surroundings where this school was so we can see this you know network around these these examples I would like to have a few different thoughts here there one thing that also connects between actually between the Manchester example and the Bethelona example this is arts in education arts education I have a tremendous memory I don't know you we we actually visited that school as you remember of seeing very small children discussing arts in both Spanish and Catalan which neither of those two languages languages where these kids natives language I mean this is an amazing way I think of including of making you know the wider society relevant and at the same time developing language proficiency among kids wouldn't you agree do you have any idea I can I totally agree I was also very impressed of this school we we we visited in Barcelona and I would like to add something because it's of course the leadership is very very important and this is really the extra mile they have to take and but it's also the cooperation with the teachers and every teacher can take over a leadership function in some in some aspect you know and for example if you are arts teacher it's always also possible to to to reduce the risk of early school relieving because what we know from research is that arts education improves the sense of belonging to school it improves the students self-worth the self-confidence self-efficacy it's also a kind of self-assessment when they are on the stage for example and it improves common communication skills also students feel pride or proud and it increases the attendance rates so especially for students with multiple needs or that are not offered or the families cannot offer them arts education in the afternoon or in the evening I think it's a responsibility for our system to offer arts education for all children and for free that's really interesting because sometimes you say that that schools should also for the most vulnerable children sometimes the message is they should learn to you know to speak their language of the country they should learn mathematics and they should learn this and that but actually maybe it's very very as you say I also think it's very important that they get access to the cultural richness of the society the things that they don't have at home that they don't meet at home they many many young kids grow up in you know in houses without any books of course they don't have to meet literature in schools and and so forth and so on so that is a very important part of education I would like to ask another question I just want also first a little mention of if I would say that I am impressed by a system when it comes to inclusion or really a system that also takes very good care of it that its teachers I would actually look at Finland I wouldn't go to Sweden we see that the Finnish teachers is a very highly regarded profession and that they stay on their jobs they also have very strong support system to give and take care of every child especially in the young ages and especially their work in the young ages I think is impressive and that is something that I can recommend people to look into but I want to ask you one more question before we leave room for questions from the from the chat the role of these indicators and this kind of structural indicators in teacher education because I know that you use them so do you have any because I can see that this could be very important to that that young teachers coming out into the profession have these kind of tools and preparedness for inclusiveness I don't know what what what is your experience well I have very good experience with using this this report but also the toolkit for schools in teacher education because our students come from different diverse backgrounds and of course they all experience different fields of schools and school culture school climates teacher and everything and actually I think for most of them it's the first time they hear what is an inclusive system because in Austria for example inclusive means that we are all we talk about people with really high complex needs and nothing else and what is an inclusive systems they really don't know so what I have my students start with reading the report I encourage them to read the report and to have a presentation on it and then we do with I work with them within working groups to identify in regard to their own educational experience what went well for them and what did not went so well what could the school have improved and in and then they also some of them are already teacher training students in school they have already practiced and I ask them also please identify indicators in this school in this specific field what what went well and what what is going well and what is not going well and I also encourage them because you said this in the beginning I always encourage almost students to take over some kind of leadership and not only in 30 years or something because with this basic knowledge of what is an inclusive system and what is a and where you can look up for example in the toolkit for school so many good practices you can really develop a school and to be a driver in making our society a better one and I think it's my students my students also like it and I think they find it very interesting and it's also to to look in to look outside of Austria into other countries to have the international perspective and to realize as you said that each school is a special case and in some schools and in each school there are good things they do and teachers are professionalized in a very good way probably but maybe parental involvement is not yet established so we can work on this so I think I have very good experience and I trust my I trust my students that they will improve our schools to be a more inclusive one. That is very interesting. Inna do we have any questions from the chat room? Thank you yes we do actually and also we have kind of active discussion in the chat box going on and one interesting question we thought would be interesting to to address is whether what do you think about inclusive education in the current period so if you could elaborate more on online teaching for example. Ah yeah that is I mean that is I mean that is actually that is of course a tremendously important question how do you and I think that I would just give a reflection from the Swedish perspective I mean we didn't close our schools this spring but of course very much was distance learning anyway because as many many children and teachers were sick we closed down our upper secondary schools what we found was that that some kind of maturity among teachers to how to use digital devices that they they learned like we could say like there's there's been some kind of evangelistic um tonality or approach towards digitalization as this solution to things but we now find of course that digitalization is just a tool and every method or every technique you use have its advantages and some disadvantages and the problem here is of course that we we know that some vulnerable children will be hurt badly by this situation but we have also the interesting result that some kids actually like the situation where they weren't forced to socialize many hours every day with kids because they find that tough so they actually thrived sitting at home working with in you know peace and quietly so it's a it's a difficult situation but but Erna you have probably have something to say about this well we were already in the newspaper that and we also know it now from the first research results they are just dropping in there is almost no research on how teachers and students and parents managed the covid the pandemic um but what I think we what we know already is that there aren't this was actually interestingly also my first indicator I showed you that we have to overcome poverty related barriers in education and one poverty related barrier was that the students the students sometimes did not have connection to the internet and sometimes also uh they didn't have the the necessary device and of course many of them did not have their own room to study and and what you said they did not feel safe maybe so it's also violence increased home violence increased and this this also is this whole pandemic whole pandemic situation and homeschooling what does it show us also that we have not been prepared enough in teacher education in the profession professionalization of of teachers for this situation so actually it's a crisis and I think this crisis will help us to further improve our education system because now everything which did not went so well also maybe in the past came up to the surface this is my into my perception of this time and of course when we talk about parental involvement and bringing them into the school I mean the barrier for parents that normally don't use any technical device because they work as handy in handicraft people or something like that and they are not just used to is much higher so the inequality issues which we have to address in an inclusive system if you want to make it better now has also so actually it's an encouragement for us to widen or to add some more indicators what is an inclusive system in pandemic during pandemic that's a very interesting question thank you whoever posted this question thank you and I think it was one one thing that we actually whether we can say is that the importance if we look down to the individual teacher the enormous importance of staying in touch with all the kids you know in any way that you can make it if they don't have any good kind connections they don't the internet doesn't work they have a full you know they're living in a in a small flat and there's a lot of people it's difficult for them at least talk to them via normal telephone in any way keep them you know in the bubble so that when we get the vaccine when life gets back to normal they are not you know socialized away from the educational system that is very very important and may I add something also that I showed you or I told something about that also in my presentation that emotional counseling is very important socially and emotional counseling and this so indeed during these times I would say an inclusive system must must need or must establish much more multidisciplinary teams and also take care of students and of course of parents and also of teachers I mean also the teachers it was also a still a crisis for the teachers also because they were not prepared for this perfect thank you so much for both Perrin Erna for your extensive answers and we have more questions coming in we'll try to address as many as possible as time allows so the question is what is the suitable way to teach students in such conditions especially during online teaching it's very easy to answer that question actually the way that works so I'm not trying to be prerude here but by just saying that there are multiple ways of doing this and it depends on what technology do you have available it is very I think that most Swedish teachers that now have had worked digital during the spring saw that it is important to keep structure it is important to keep lesson structures maybe break it down to smaller pieces in a classroom maybe you can take away in a long line of thought that you finally at the end you get the whole thing together but the more say p small instruction that occurs online maybe you have to break down the learning events into smaller pieces but you need to have structure and all that but in the end there are as many ways to teach us there are teachers that there are areas that you can teach about so you need to find a way that works that is I mean that this sounds simplistic but it's actually the strongest element that you can use and it's not goes also for normal classroom teaching use the methods that reach your students whatever that is and if that what you don't do what you do don't work stop doing it and do something else well I can't add many things to that I totally agree of course it's a big challenge in teacher education to teach our students online and I would say we had we are now in also have the second lockdown we already learned a lot out of this first lockdown and one thing is to have a structure to stay to stay engaged and also well to see the students online via camera and to get in touch with them and this is the same thing which is very very important for vulnerable students well these are I mean in teacher education I think this is actually what will happen now that we have learned a lot of things a lot of we had to overcome a lot of challenges and the next step will be to integrate this in the curricula of teacher training or to develop teacher training in another way or in an additional way in an additional way but of course it is a challenge and as you said pair staying in touch in contact with the students is the most important thing and we also know this from early school leaving the main factor to prevent early school leaving is the social contact having a mentor having a tutor having a teacher who trusts that something that the pupil tries to have trust in the pupil that this pupil or student can achieve so strengthen the self the strengthen the students in their ways how they learn and and cognitive but also in an in or emotionally it's very important so this will be probably central now in pandemic times to inform students about this because we can read about this in the meanwhile in the newspapers what happens if this does not happen excellent thanks a lot Erna thanks a lot pair and we have time for one more question the last one so the question is from your perspective is it possible to implement an inclusive school model with current not only financial resources I think that one of the otherwise would say like this one of the reasons why I showed these three very different schools was to point out that it is possible that is that whatever you are you can always make make a school inclusive and work better working with whatever you have even also now in the pandemic times if you if you for example when you meet not only talk about how the next mathematics curricula should you know roll out through the for your students but you could also meet just to talk about how do we engage how do we keep our students you know in in the socialized into our schools in the educational sector if you ask other times of questions I think you can all I mean I'm not one that would say that the financials on the financial situation is not important because it is otherwise you're saying something very mean to our teachers but it's also true that in all circumstances you can always make a better educational system a better school whatever the circumstances and that is very much about your attitude and how you iterate as teachers and interrelate with your students I also share this attitude thank you yeah well we have also developed indicators for the national level for policy makers I didn't go into this today but on the other hand it's right what Perz says that there are so many many measures that don't you don't need a lot of don't need money for it it's just it's about attitudes I mean the magic of teaching is isn't it you have always remember this teacher that actually cared for you in whatever circumstance that is really what makes the difference so to our speakers bear erna if you have anything else to add please go ahead otherwise I would draw this webinar to the end no thanks thanks for inviting us yes the same thanks very much and thanks to everyone who listens okay excellent thank you so much I really want to thank you for such a rich discussion today thank you so much to our speakers for being with us and for our audience today and being so active also engaging a lot during the the whole webinar in the chat box so this this was really nice to see so we have some information some practical information for our participants so you will be able to obtain the certificate of participation within 24 hours it's needed to submit the feedback survey we will right now leave an announcement the link on the feedback 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