 And today you're in for a big treat. We're going to go into a juicy, juicy topic about holy relationships and special relationships and the difference between the two and also look at it from the context of a bit of like life coaching and psychotherapy, the different kind of therapies that are out there. And that's something that my guest, my guest is Alex Gill, very dear friend of mine. We've done a podcast on her show and she's come on to re-stream here for me to share on the platforms that I share with. Welcome, Alex. Thank you for gracing us and gracing me with your presence. Thank you, David. So good to be here. So good to be with your audience, Sherry. Very important. I think a very important conversation today about relationships because I believe there's so much confusion there. And I'm speaking this confusion, even speaking of myself because I come from the background of a lot of psychology, life coaching, and I'm a big devoted student of course in miracles. And the more I understand special relationships and holy relationships, the more I kind of not disregard because I think there's a place for every teaching for every psychology book out there. But it's kind of once you understand the concept of holy relationships, you don't need to read any other psychology book about relationships. And yet I think those books have a place, those teachings have a place as a bridge to bring people maybe into course of miracles. So I kind of, I want to be that bridge with you here. What a beautiful vision I have of walking this bridge with you and hopefully to this conversation help a lot of people to get clarity in this place that it can be so beautiful and so joyful. It can also create a lot of suffering, a place called relationships. Beautiful. Well, it's beautiful that we can take this time. Originally you were from Brazil and now living in the United States and with the topic of relationships, of course people watching know that it's the direct experience of moment by moment relating that really shows us, you know, we read it even in the course, we're reading the teachings and we're getting all the kind of pointers from Jesus, especially those nine chapters between chapter 15 and chapter 24 on special relationships and holy relationships. I know people who have said when they've gone to retreats about these topics and these chapters, they have to order the kitchen, they say they have to order seven times as much food because people want to stuff their faces when they're reading about these. The resistance to holy relationship and we'll say the exposure of the tactics of the ego with special relationship is a real sharp area and the ego is highly resistant to these teachings. But maybe we can start off by saying I think you said too you had a relationship too where you got to look at the witnessing of your mind in kind of an extreme way with a deep sense of love and care and compassion underneath but also sometimes the spirit use of relationships they're more like assignments where you go through a period of time seemingly lots of stuff comes up and then you have to have some kind of an inside or a lesson and sometimes that lesson even involves a stay or go. It's not like there's a preset idea that things have to go a certain way or have to look a certain way. We were learning that and then your questions I think when you wrote to me I thought wow that's fantastic. You had to talk with Carol Howe about special relationships and holy relationships and just your background of using psychology and coaching it's more like you're just interested with all the curiosity in your mind like okay let's get to the bottom what's the bottom line here. What's the bottom line so let's start with a big question the big question. So data shows us and I know relationships is we always in relationship but let's bring this in the context of more of what we call intimate relationships 50% of marriages and and I just heard today that in California 75% of marriages end up in divorce. So we can you know say that there's a big crisis and to me it's like yes it's obvious in at the same time it's not and that's what I want to shine the light here for a lot of people because I think it is a topic that brings so much confusion because I see the psychology going from one old paradigm to another new paradigm that is another ego structure in the course of miracles teachings is what brings us right in the middle like the thou right Lao Tzu is very wise like there is a middle way that is not here or not here so David from your view why it's so high why in this tremendous crisis in relationships it's people suffer people get into depression and many people even giving up the idea of the relationships because of all the hurt they have so what what's really going on here in the bigger way let's start with the big picture. Well the big picture is the bigger context is that that our perception of this world and our perception of linear time in the cosmos is a mirror and Jesus has really taught us that that it's a motion picture or a mirror and perception is a mirror not a fact and I think part of the devastation and the crisis feeling is from taking the physical world which is a projection but taking it as a fact so when you talk to somebody about marriage they take that as a fact maybe they there's a lot of lifelong kind of ideas that are tied in with with marriage and promises and commitments and so forth and then when you talked about 50% marriage is ending in divorce or in California 70 75% the the breakups and the divorces are seen as a failure of an ideal so we could say that everything in form as long as it's it's on the timeline of perception that it's just a motion picture of beliefs so everything you think and believe and feel is acted out in the world that has been called reality by the human beings but but to Jesus he's basically saying he even says in the course you have a two-tier self-concept there's the dream that you dream in secret he says which is what psychologists like Freud and young and so forth called the unconscious mind and then there's the dream that you gave away which is the projected world so in the projected world it seems like there's cause and effect and there's there's joinings and making up and making up and all the the gyrations of that but those are all just projected outcomes of the belief and separation and and basically it's the dream that was given away so it seems like it's being done to you I met someone or we're in relationship we're now we're in relationship we cross that invisible line now now it's a relationship it's a friendship now it's a relationship it was dating and a friendship then yeah now it's a relationship all these things that are taken for fact are really not facts but they are just images and interpretations many years ago in the 1990s I was with a group of students very devoted students in the 1990s like around 1993 94 and we're reading a course of miracles going through it very slowly and then Jesus had a line in the course of miracles that just says no one can be angry at a fact well the students were like what does that even mean no one can be angry at a fact they said we have no clue what he's talking about here what what does it mean no one can be angry at a fact and I said well it's just a statement of an accurate declaration they said well what's a fact then if no one could be angry at a fact and I said God is a fact Christ is a fact and spirit is a fact and no one can be angry at a fact if you knew the fact of the matter you would not be capable of being angry you would only feel love if you if you knew the fact but the world is not a world of facts it's a world of perceptions it's a world of illusions and when we're looking for love in those faces in those situations in places we're actually looking in the projected world of darkness to find the love which Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within the kingdom of God is within so we actually are looking it's a misdirection we're just looking for the divine eternal everlasting love and maybe we'll call it romantic relationships and Jesus has said you have every right to experience love but you're just looking in the wrong direction I love that answer and right away it resonates so much because not until that long ago I was the person seeking that salvation we in a way we seeking for somebody to save us but I was looking for love outside myself and again wasn't that long ago that I had a moment of miracle where I was in deep meditation and I literally felt that I was the one I was looking for and truly it's it's God I was looking for God and made me realize at that moment that the truth is everybody's really seeking for God's love but we're looking in the wrong places and that's it seems like where we create a lot of drama because that's a lot of responsibility and burden to put in another human we wanted them to save us we wanted them to to heal our childhood wounds we want us them to prove us that we can trust love so they would never disappoint us because we're so disappointed start with mom and dad and past partners so no wonder a lot of relationships are not working because we are looking for this special one to be our salvation and people might not say this consciously but I can say that I was doing that now that I'm able to see the bigger picture of my own life I totally see as I I remember reading Course in Miracles when I was reading about guilt and how I was projecting guilty to my relationships and to my partners it was a moment that I had to pause and I'm like oh my god that has been me so it seems like we all have mastered special relationships we master ego driven relationships and no wonder there's so much drama in that so that will let me shift you here into a little bit of the psychology so it's interesting to watch what's being happening with the psychology of relationships we went from one place of where people didn't speak their truth let's say they didn't speak their needs they were just suffering quietly in relationships so then I think psychology took all this material and created this new material that is all about let's set boundaries let's learn how to ask for your or needs why are the five red flags that show you that you're dating a narcissist and so on if you follow a lot of dating coaches or relationship coaches on social media you know what I'm talking about so what I see my perception is that we just took one ego structure and psychology is creating other ego structures because now we go to these relationships as even Carol how spoke about we go into this relationship to this big list is this person gonna meet my list how you know can I ask for what I need so it's still this format of like of going to relationships so I can meet my needs so let's talk a little bit about that because at the same time in this physical form we can say we have needs have needs for affection have needs for listening and understanding and support so how we do how do we come to the middle way like I was speaking earlier yeah well let's just say that that the entire world of the ego the ego is a belief in separation from God so it's a death wish and one of its principles is scarcity or we could call it lack or in relationship terminology not enough if we just put it from scarcity lack to oh but believe that I'm not enough I'm not worthy of the love and so forth so that's really good because that's exposing that as a belief system but then we start to realize that that Jesus is saying well when you believe in the ego you do believe in lack and scarcity and you perceive the world based on your belief system so you perceive a world that's lacking and this is where all the relationship will call it codependencies come in one person who by definition has forgotten the Christ and forgotten eternal love eternal oneness is kind of in some sense a walking belief in scarcity or lack because the world is the projection so people come into relationships from a sense of need and when that is the motive to get your needs met most relationship psychologists and psychiatrists would say of course that's your baseline that's going to have to be dealt with and so with of course the miracles and opening to be a miracle worker you start to realize that the miracle is what truly meets that need whereas the Beatles said all you need is love in course a miracle to him is all you need is miracles you know because Jesus is saying we need to be consistently miracle minded each day should be devoted to miracles he even says miracles are natural when they do not occur something has gone wrong so he's clearly saying you know you can talk about God and love and oneness and revelation if you want but practically speaking miracles help shift your mind and they work with the symbols that the ego made up including humans and men and women and interpersonal relationships that miracles are on an interpersonal level he also says that we're all all the humans are on the same level so we can call some teachers we can say some are students we can say some are not interested Jesus said yeah you're teaching and learning all the time through these interactions you're really starting to get a closer look at your mind he's saying when you believe you're here in this world you don't know what equality is you don't know what oneness is for sure because you have amnesia about the kingdom of heaven but even at the interpersonal level you're so into hierarchies and preferences and who's superior and who's inferior who's dominant and who's submissive and of course Freud and many psychologies have given us a lot of the dynamics of the ego now and of course the miracles Jesus says the ego doesn't really have dynamics because it's not real so how can something that is a belief have dynamics dynamics are like active things like defense mechanism things but Jesus is saying at one point even says the ego enjoys studying itself so we can see that a lot of psychiatry and psychology is its theory it's taking a stab at at explaining and describing the mind and human nature but of course the miracles Jesus is transcendent he's literally transcended the the ego be of good cheer I've overcome the world he said two thousand years ago so he's basically saying now I want you to open up to holy relationship but holy relationship is the highest teaching learning goal that you'll come upon in this course so it has to be carefully taught and learned it's going to take enormous amount of practice you might even have multiple assignments he tells us in the manual for teachers that it he starts off you know what are the levels of teaching you know is the question for Jesus and in the manual for teachers he said well there aren't any levels that every single relationship is is a perfect opportunity to teach who you are and learn what you are and to forgive and then as soon as he said there aren't any levels and that that you can't really understand what with the belief in levels then he comes right out and he gives levels like it's almost like you're going for something so high that I've got to give you some levels so you can relate to what I'm talking about meaning the the interaction you know some two two people bumping in children bumping into an adult or people in an elevator he gives some examples of what we would call just fleeting interactions and he gives another level and he says two people come together for a fairly intense teaching learning situation and then seem or appear to separate he's describing a relationship formation and a breakup whether it's a just a breakup or divorce he's defining that in the second level and then he says the third level is very rare where each where one is given a lifelong teaching learning partner and and he says these are very rare and he goes on to say that that the two maybe hostile to one another perhaps for life this is in the lifelong and when for anybody who's got a soulmate wish you know and Jesus is like oh there's oh yeah lifelong lifelong and then they may be hostile to one another perhaps for life whoa that just blows the the soulmate idea out too but what he's saying is basically we have to change our belief system and our thought system so completely we let go of judgments and we let go of expectations we let go of the timeline and we come to the holy instant the present moment and relationships are used by the holy spirit to release the false and accept the true it's deep though because as long as the mind is believing in this linear time it's going to project its expectations its preferences it's all of its judgments it will project them onto the world and as we know with the more called intimate relationships or significant other partnerships that's a lot of close mirroring and it gets very very intense when the blame game starts or the abandonment game starts or you've rejected me you know those kind of ideas are so deep in the unconscious mind that they they play out sometimes on a daily or weekly basis and people are like where's the fun yeah let's let's go right there David because I want to start bringing more into you went you did so beautifully like you're bringing really the big picture now let's narrow down to make this practical for a lot of listeners you just spoke let go expectations and you spoke about you know we start hitting this place of oh I feel rejected or I feel neglected by you or I feel like you're not paying attention now so how I know there are a lot of people in this situation I certainly have gone through that not long ago so how do we start reorienting if that's that is the mirror so how people in this situation how do they start reorient themselves from special relationship to holy relationship when there are being triggered so from the eyes of psychology, psychology trauma we see every trigger as something that it's you you are caring it's not your partner you always upset that's what I love a lot of the trauma healing language matches what is in the course which it says you're never upset about what you think you're upset about and that matches trauma healing 100% with that I own that trigger if I'm constantly feeling rejected first of all we say another we can't be rejected as an adult so if I'm constantly feeling rejected it's definitely something that I'm caring myself and my partner is simply triggering that so that at least for me it's had you know it's it's a bridge towards holy relationships but let's say somebody's really in this place of not enough not feeling loved enough feeling rejected how can they start doing this work maybe even inside the container of the relationship yeah let's just say somebody has been the therapist and the therapist had said oh my gosh you have a huge co-dependency tendencies yes you are looking outside yourself and and you're just going from one person to the next trying to have them meet your needs and you're looking for a father figure or a sugar daddy or a provider or something like this but your question is really is we we you can't go from an egoic belief system into zero expectations without a bridge and that's what you're asking me for let's have a bridge here for for the majority of the people that are are watching let's have some bridges yeah and so let's talk about something like setting boundaries or I hear that a lot because I've been traveling the world 44 countries and you better believe they're bringing up all their relationship stuff you know they're like recent metaphysics okay now here's what here's what's going on in my life you have a few hours because I need I need your ear for this but what is they'll say about what about setting boundaries or setting healthy boundaries in many psychological model this is a very positive step although the very word boundary tends to be associated with limits and if I'm going for ultimate freedom you know what are healthy limits you know again I re I rephrase and I say well what if I reinterpret these setting healthy boundaries into having intuitive preyed upon shared agreements let's talk it that way let's use that phraseology instead of setting healthy boundaries prayerful intuitive uh we'll just say agreements shared agreements and that's the way I've had to to extend when I've traveled all over the world groups are asking me how can we get along uh couples are asking me how can we get along families children sometimes and parents coming to me like oh my god this is a nightmare this this family is nightmare they say it's totally dysfunctional and I'll say well why don't we just start from from the core right here and right now and see if we can come up with some shared agreements for example I counsel one couple they're a mixed one is the the husband's Jewish the the wife is Catholic they come from completely different family systems seemingly in this world completely different religions and they don't want to talk about any of that I said okay what do you want to talk about well the wife's like listen I don't have a huge libido I'm praying meditating more and honestly you know I am not looking at every corner to have sex with my husband because it's just where I'm at I'm just want to be honest about that so I say okay to the husband what do you feel he's like well it's like I think that's a basic need for me and it's like a wifely duty and you know I'm okay with a bare minimum of three times a week and and she's like you know it's it's then she says it's not just that the expectation around three times a week it has to be for you her husband to be on a specific day because of his occupation at a specific hour in the afternoon so it's like she said it's scheduled it's not just three times a week it's scheduled three times a week she's like I can't I can't do that so here I'm talking with them and and you can't just go to all his god all is one right holy guest at the present moment so I'm saying well let's let's keep talking here I'm talking with him and then I say let's let's look at the expectations and are you willing to open up to a shared agreement around this topic where you both can intuitively feel okay I'm willing I'm willing to give this a go and try and then I work with him and and then he says oh I'm sorry it's it's so scheduled and she's like yeah if it at least if it was more spontaneous I'm willing to be open you can see both of them giving ground so to speak by saying I love you and I want to make this work and I let's talk and communicate and let's pray together and have a shared agreement now those shared agreements of course are temporary and that's the other thing you know when people have shared agreements as you shift in consciousness and as you start to expand your awareness and open up toward the light there's going to be lots of shifts and so there has to be a lot of communication and a lot of transparency a lot of disclosure a lot of the things you were talking about that that psychologists are saying are very helpful and it's just a read and retransiting the healthy boundaries talk into the prayerful intuitive shared agreements you see it's it's from a positive context not from how are we going to limit each other right and set up boundaries to what can we agree upon and not only with relationships I've been involved with many different spiritual communities around the world and there's so much communication that goes on even in the community because there's a shifting happening there's a growth the spiritual growth that happens and sometimes shared agreements they kind of serve their usefulness and then they have to be discarded and then new shared agreements can come in but you see how flowing and flexible that is that it's making room for growth and for expansion so that's the terms that the Holy Spirit and Jesus have used through me when I'm practically talking with with couples or communities families you know that's that's what I'm looking for shared agreements that's a beautiful bridge from boundaries that that sound very structural and rigid to intuitive shared agreements it seems like even the energy as I say those words feel way more free way more open um than boundaries or because boundaries sounds so like it's it's going from a almost like a one business contract to another business contract basically yeah yeah and then there's like this rigidity that and a lot of relationships do become more like a transactional business transactions hey I I done all this for you are you gonna do for me so so much and and maybe a lot of the relationships are crumbling are collapsing because we are shifting I I want to believe truly that we are shifting consciousness as collective and as part of that relationships are also shifting and what is not true it's not it's not staying anymore it's dissolving yeah yeah and and I also like yourself you know I have a great appreciation for fields of philosophy psychology education in many different ways and I I went through training in psychology both in undergraduate school and in graduate school and and so we studied the various tradition you know the stimulus response the the bf skinner kind of thing and then the Freudian you know unconscious uh it it and and super ego the moral you know voice of society and the ego mitigating between then I I kind of evolved more into humanistic psychology resonating more with Carl Rogers and and uh Virginia satir and and you know basically uh Abraham Maslow so forth and carried on more when I started to get involved in the course back in 1986 I was actually at a humanistic psychology conference on the west coast uh near Hoya California and there were transpersonal psychologists the fourth wave that were there Roger Walsh uh Francis Vaughn they were married two transpersonal psychotherapists together about transcending the ego that the purpose of relationships is to transcend the ego transits the limited small self and go to the the grand larger self of our our spiritual identity so I was really in touch with all of this and I would have to say too that that the higher you go in consciousness and towards the light what you start to see is the perception of relationships becomes drastically different yeah the higher you go towards that that will say the mountain or the top of consciousness let me use some examples for you because a lot of times people say well that sounds good I would like to move in that direction but here's what I'm dealing with recently um in the past several weeks I've come across a few articles on Facebook and one of them was from Kim Aang who is the partner to Eckhart Tolle and Kim was saying well when she travels you know people are coming up to her and saying what's it like to be married or partnered with an enlightened being and and Kim was saying you know actually that's not the most helpful question because there's a lot of assumptions that go with uh what's it like to be a partner significant other of an enlightened being and basically she took it herself and also in the article with with Eckhart talking to to basically say that that ultimately there are no interpersonal relationships and there's only the present moment that's how far she went with it it all comes down to the present moment in our relationship with time and it doesn't have anything to do with partners or enlightened partners or anything like this it's ultimately comes down to the present moment then more recently someone sent me a link and it was uh Byron Katie and her partner Stephen and talking in there playfully about how when they got married Stephen her husband said to her with kind of half jokingly very light heartedly said let's see if you can keep that ring on your finger for a year see this is what I mean by a very very different perspective on relationships because that would be unheard of uh in a typical marriage let's see if if you can keep that ring on your finger for a year and then she said shortly thereafter wasn't very maybe a couple months later she found herself taking her ring sliding it off her finger and putting it onto a male friend of hers uh and say and giving it away uh only months after after being married and after Stephen saying let's see if you can keep this ring on your finger for a year and as she slid it off onto her her male friend gave it to him uh he said no no I'm not I can't take this and he took he gave it back to her so she still has the ring but it wasn't that she didn't try to give it away uh Byron Katie what love what unconditional joy what wisdom turn it around turn it around she's so into the giving and the sharing of love that even in this context which which is would seem extreme I know a lot of people would just shake their head like what she did what uh Stephen was playful even in the beginning and then laughing at it when she when it came back to her like oh you still got it but you see it's taking it away from the the pressure of trying to keep the form in a certain way to using everything that comes up and I think uh Stephen's just written a book on forgiveness and she was using the platform to say oh yeah he's just how beautiful when we use the relationships to give and extend love and we practice doing it more and more unconditionally meaning without the the reciprocity without the strings attached I'll do this for you if you do this for me of course that's the way interpersonal relationships are but but Jesus is telling us through the course that if we hand them over to the Holy Spirit and say use it for your purposes of forgiveness it's a way of clearing our mind of of the ego of of empty our mind of of these judgments and how beautiful that is so I give those two examples for people who who may need some role models will say for people that are are really living in a very very high state of mind without the possessiveness without the control without the deep sense of woundedness and and hurt and rejection and abandonment that typically of course comes up in interpersonal relationships as far as the human race but these are like role models of it can be different there is another way and and it's worth going for it you know it's it's great to have role models that that mirror this this love and acceptance and inclusivity that's what I see Byron Katie and and Stephen and Kim Aang and and Eckhart they're just great role models of love is inclusive love is not exclusive as the ego teaches it's actually inclusive it includes includes the whole universe oh wow we need certain we need a radical remod of this whole concept of marriage and relationships because what you're saying is like you meet your beloved in the present moment you in the present moment you don't need to create definitions of are we committed are we are we gonna get married or are we gonna you you basically say remove all the structures or the constructs and just meet your beloved in the present moment without seeking for the guarantee because seems like what we going back to what I was sharing the beginning we wanted that salvation it's almost like we wanted that guarantee that that next person that next lover is not going to leave us or hurt us so it's almost like we want to have that marriage we want to have that thing that that ring on the finger because that's a promise that you're not gonna change and leave me which of course is impossible look look what's happening look at the numbers yeah yeah we have to start to laugh at it you know I remember yeah there was a few years ago when Beyonce came out with a song if you like it then you better put a ring on it if you like it then you better put a ring on it oh oh oh oh and it was just a beautiful music video some years ago but it's it's very much like professional sports players you know it's like you like my skills you like my abilities you like team owner you like what I do for you lock me up in a long term contract give me those zeros and I'll just ink it and you can just sign me up and not only I want a long-term contract but I want a guaranteed long-term contract if you cut me if I'm injured if anything happens I still want the money kind of like the the old movie show me the money with Tom Cruise you know it's this is show me the longevity show me the future guaranteed contract yes and of course this is the model that we've dealt with on planet earth is it's contractual it's very contractual it's very legal it's not just you were saying 50 percent or 75 percent divorce rate but there's lawyers involved there's lots of you know letting go of of things assets splitting assets there's not talk of forgiveness there it's talk about how do we split the assets how do we split the property I had a friend of mine years ago in the early mid-1990s and he was a lawyer and he dealt with people a lot of people came to him for divorces and he was a very devout course of miracles teacher and student so one time I visited him as his house his name was was Richard and when when I went into his office his law office he said yeah they come in here's the seats where they sit and they they come to hire me in my services to go through a divorce process and then I point to the forgiveness sign behind me I think it was forgiveness is the key to happiness and I go what a front Jesus is using you as seemingly a lawyer and they're coming in there to enact a divorce and you're talking about forgiveness and I said wow that's that's a good use of how the Holy Spirit can use what the ego made to always bring us back to forgive to let go don't hold grievances use prayer and guidance even if people decide to go their separate ways pray your way through it another friend of mine you might know Gary Renard I knew Gary and his first wife and and basically they came to a point where they were saying it feels like we're to get a divorce and I when I talked to him he said well we we hired him we had lawyers and the lawyers were going back and forth you know how it goes trying to get the most for their client and this and that and then finally he told me they we just went to uh their favorite restaurant I think it was in New England and and none of his main or wherever it was they went to their favorite restaurant and they basically sat down and they talked each other in very loving respectful tones like let's let's join together and find what's the best for us and then uh she said well what what do you think and he wrote some things down on a napkin slid the napkin across to her at the at the restaurant their favorite restaurant she exed out a few things slid the napkin back and then they they said okay great we we move on even that's a shared agreement you see even even what could be perceived as a divorce doesn't have to be a battle it doesn't have to be a competition it doesn't have to be maximizing assets but it's it's actually through prayer and I've seen many people I've worked with over the years who really pray together on that decision yeah and and really feel an intuitive shared agreement that comes to both of them mutually and then they can hug each other and go thank you thank you for all the lessons shared and there's a gratitude it's a it's a parting with gratitude you see how different that is from the ego's view of contracts breaking contracts you know adversarial the ego is always very uh competitive and adversarial and that's just we don't have to buy into that anymore no I I love that so much um I'll share a little personal story that happened with me recently where I was involved with somebody in a romantic relationship and we came to a place of agreement that we needed to go separate ways and what I shared with her was it I share like in the old paradigm we will call this a break up but there's nothing breaking because the love I feel for this person is so unconditional that I said that love doesn't change that my love for you doesn't change at all because that is truth and what is truth is unchangeable the only thing we're changing is the agreement that is going from a what we call a committed relationship to now a friendship that's all it's changing so there's no breaking up because our love is unbreakable and I it was a moment of like wow that's a very different paradigm because and not to say that there's aspects of me that still felt hurt disappointed I even dropped tears so I want to share this personal story because we can have both we can still have I believe a human experience which is all the sudden I was seeing my future I put time I will see my future with this person all of a sudden not anymore so in that process there was sadness there was grief and I allow myself to feel all that but it's a very different experience when we feel that without any blame versus when we're creating stories and blaming and going back to that scarcity mindset which is it's not this person I'm going to be alone and it's but it's a very different experience and still there is there is an emotional I guess process that we go through when there's change in agreements and relationships and like you said we can do if we really apply these teachings we just can do everything with so much love because if you really love somebody just because they're making a different choice their love shouldn't change yeah oh that's so beautiful that's a great example of of a big stride towards holy relationship because you know Jesus teaches in the course let all things be exactly as they are the ego doesn't even know what that means it's like what it's got so much investment and outcomes and future and it's got so many ambitions and preferences that it doesn't really know what all things being exactly as they are means uh in the bible it said all things work together for good there aren't uh for those who love the lord in the course it's there are no all things work together for good there are no exceptions except in the ego's judgment so it's really the same the same thing but we have to start to see that relationships we'll call them interpersonal relationships are assignments or letting go of unconscious guilt assignments for letting go of unconscious fear what are the issues that come up oftentimes rejection abandonment betrayal you know the core things in all the shakespeare place shakespeare was constantly writing about and he was very wise to put them in there he wasn't trying to skip over anything but he was just using we'll say the the sonnets and the play and the theater to help himself go through a healing uh because he had a wife that uh lived in in a different town a daughter that he was kind of a stranger he got so into writing plays and sonnets and having his own theater that basically that was became his life his career his literary career and he basically didn't see his his wife or uh his daughter uh very much until his theater burned down and then he had he went home there was for shakespeare william shakespeare it was all the unconscious stuff came flushing up with the the daughters with the wife and and that's how it goes so we shouldn't get too negative and down on ourselves too harsh we shouldn't we shouldn't conclude things about ourselves as being unlovable or unworthy of love because we're all doing the best that we can based on what we believe and much of that belief system is unconscious so we're not even aware of it until in the relationship the triggers start coming but the fear the abandonment the aloneness i need more from you i want more intimacy i want i need to be more nurtured it's the ego tends to put it out onto the partner and say that if you were different i would be happy and then the ego wants to change the partner and jesus is saying you can't change the world you can only change your interpretation of the world your interpretation of your partner is what's being healed it's being opened up so then it's all good like we're everybody's just doing the best that they can you know no no need for blame there's just no need for it no for in my opinion is the most unproductive unproductive state we can ever be is the state of of blaming and especially blaming the self which is very common and i see the root of all this drama is the sense of scarcity it's and it's both it's if we if we bring the two biggest stressors of people's life let's say money and relationships i believe the core is the core problems exactly the same is either i don't have enough there's not enough money coming and i am not enough or i don't have enough love so it's the same place of scarcity which to me now is so clear it's like the veil has been lifted from me it's like it's the biggest lie of all yeah that's it and i and i love how open and willing you are i mean we've we've come together and join and then you've come together with with caro howl and i like it that you know you you say okay i do i'm a coach a life coach and everything but but even during our interviews i'm sure with caro and me there's a lot of things that come up things that you have used even you believe you've used successfully in your practice and then huh then after the interview the next day or week you're going wow i'm gonna be out of a job if i keep talking to these if i keep opening my mind that fast i'm gonna be out of the job i just talked with a friend of mine you know we talked and it was like all these mystical experiences that this friend has had and gone through so many things of uh from a very horrendous childhood to becoming very successful and having so much money and properties and things and then giving it all the way having a saint francis mother teresa moment getting a strong case of mother teresa itis i call it and then giving it all the way and then still this i want to give i want to share use me use me use me and that's the journey that's the fun of the journey to open ourselves to how the spirit can really use us in a in a very impactful way to release this unconscious guilt that's all we're really doing is we're not really trying to make the world a better place we're just trying to release these unconscious guilt feelings and fear feelings yeah and what a gift when we meet somebody and we see the mirror that they're showing us where we have these places that we might call attachments or grievances and what a beautiful reflection because i i wouldn't know it was there until i there's a reflection in in the beloved showing me where i'm holding guilt or fear and i i just see so much fear being expressed in relationships so a big thing you know that i see people talking about these days in relationships they've is this trust how do i trust i don't can i trust and there's a big conversation these days around safety that is almost like our responsibility to make our partners feel safe around us so they can be vulnerable so and i can i can certainly understand so let's talk a little bit as we might be coming here to to the end um this issue of trust and safety for people as they go into relationships how they can resolve that yeah well there's a workbook lesson even in a course of miracles that jesus gives it says i trust my brothers who are one with me and sometimes people reach that relationship and they go no i jesus if you knew my history you would never say such a thing i trust my brothers are one of me meaning trusting all our brothers and sisters but i think what happens is we're starting to become more intuitive but we have to realize that with a split mind we've been both analytical and intuitive that jesus says the ego analyzes the holy spirit accepts you can see the energy there the ego analyzes the holy spirit accepts so we've we've had a split mind we've done a little bit of both but as we start to become more intuitive we're just willing to line up with our intuition with spirit more and more then that starts to build a confidence and i would say that's where the trust really is we're we're just learning to trust our higher self we're learning to trust our intuition we're learning to trust that small still intuitive voice that's really where the trust is developing and as that happens then we draw forth witnesses to our brothers and sisters and we start to feel a bond a loyalty like oh that's a real good friend that's a trusted one i can open up my heart they won't judge me they just accept me they they tell me they love me even when i'm going through my darkness then those are more and more we draw forth witnesses i'll call them of trust so it's not saying that you should by a fact just try to trust the form because jesus has said that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit is spirit where am i really developing my trust it's in the spirit it's in the guidance and the intuition feelings i have and those prompts and and nudges from the spirit that is very healthy that takes it away from um you know like you said uh if if you're afraid of being partnered up with a narcissist and you're constantly getting your notebook out and looking at the symptoms and behaviors of of a narcissist then already you're coming from a place of fear yes you know you've got your checks in your boxes there and you're like listen we're not going to go out on a date until we sit down and we talk first about this and i want to hear all your tendencies i want to hear all your passion like an interview i want to hear everything i went all the dirt from the past i'll look at my notes then and i'll see if we have the first date because i'm not going to get involved with another narcissist that is coming from fear and jesus is saying why not practice with the miracle coming from that place of willingness to connect and love and trust and let that grow through encounters drawing forth witnesses to that that love and that that tenderness and and that's a healthy way really i think to build trust but jesus says in the course that in the development of trust section that it's usually a pretty slowly evolving process and that he has a whole section on development of trust he doesn't just say trust he says development of trust yeah and there are people like ecker tolly that have those park bench experiences over in england that are so radically transforming that they can't hardly function in the world because they get such a big dose of light and illumination but those are very rare for most human beings it's a slowed process of development and we have to be kind and gentle with ourselves we can't be harsh on ourselves for oh i should trust more or i should have trusted this person that's just second guessing ourselves and and it's for self judgment self criticism yeah wow i can take this to many directions but i want to say it again what you said about the ego analyzes and the holy spirit accepts it is resonates so much true to me because if i go back a little bit to to this frame what i see a lot of people struggling and i struggle with that myself is this place that okay i accept this relationship might not be for my highest good for my growth and yet we can see and feel and i helping a client right now caught in the addiction the addiction of the body so the spirit is guiding say this might not be a person for you and yet the body is so addicted that's like but i wanted that person there's something that that's still for them right and in a lot of times if people end up going back to those relationships clearly there's they have some lessons to learn with with with that individual but i can see where people get caught in the struggle because they do hear the voice of truth and yet the body it's the body creates they they're in a split basically and that's where a lot of the confusion is created i'm sure a lot of people are going to be listening to this and in relate to this split that they have between what they know is truth and yet they're not listening yeah yeah that's that's what i think makes waking up requires such persistence and determination and devotion is because jesus tells us in the course that when you believe in the ego which is the belief in separation from god and you believe in the death wish in this world you will be attracted to death and attracted to guilt and that is something that you know we don't really get we can get from Freud's teaching that there was this guilt and this shame that just played out in terms of sexuality and very strange distorted ways but what jesus is showing us is that the attraction to guilt is the ego using its projected world to trick the mind to go for things that really aren't helpful for its peace of mind but actually it will perpetuate the guilt so you mentioned with people the addiction the attraction to certain kind of characters certain personas certain forms people have said to me like i was married five times david and i i kept attracting an alcoholic one of the chances of attracting an alcoholic five times in a row and i say well from a course of miracles perspective it's the attraction of guilt it's it's the subconscious mind and and then being drawn or attracted to things that aren't necessarily helpful they are helpful as mirroring but but not for release you have to actually follow the spirit's guidance to let certain things go and break the pattern you know break the loop break the loop of time in the end it's it's it's a time question as we talked about on another episode that basically eternity has no sense of time eternity means forever always but linear time was set up by the ego past present future i just showed an einstein movie where jesus was saying through albert einstein past present future are an illusion and jesus talks quite a lot about this in the course which is basically when we're addicted it may seem you're addicted to a certain personality or a certain trait or a certain pattern like alcoholism drug addiction but it's actually the past the mind is is caught in a loop like groundhog day just looping looping looping repeating the same mistakes until it becomes aware of what it is and then it says no thank you i'm not going to go through that again i don't need to i want the miracle i'll choose a miracle instead and that's the that's the release that's the freedom beautiful so they've let's finish with this like giving the audience a little bit of a um a framework a little bit of a map so the people who are either in the relationship in a in an intimate relationship well this can be also with friends from anybody any any person that might be triggering you let's say or even just people that want to start dating meeting a possible intimate partner what kind of guidance would you give to them to start really moving towards holy relationship well instead of coming from the perspective of of what does this person have to teach me that i need to get rid of i would come from a perspective of collaboration a sense of harmony sometimes we meet people and right away there's an instant kind of sense of synergy or connection and we don't need to be following the egos dictates which is always just judging whether they would make a good partner or something like that it's always trying to put people into boxes the egos only one question is how will this serve me in kind of a very individual kind of narcissistic way because the ego is trying to collect witnesses for itself and protect itself in the unconscious mind but i like it where we can start the dialogue of like this is what we're doing right now we you wrote to me one time and said hey i'd like to come on my show and we just had the best time it's it's illuminating there's a joy there's a synergy it's like we're being used in a very helpful way to extend another way of looking at the world in a very practical way for for people who believe different things and or seem to reflect different beliefs we're just like oh let's let's come to that experience and it's a collaboration i have always looked at at the world and relationships in terms of collaborations yeah if we're waking up to god and i'm convinced that that is what's going on here that's really what's going on and i'm always looking for collaborators i i was so busy the last several days that i was getting emails text messages facebook messenger messages and everything and and then like with your email i said yeah how about next week because this was on the the weekend and and then there we are and and to me this joy i had such a wonderful day i had like four or five conversations this one's a podcast but the others were just conversations all of them joyful all of them with lots of love and laughter all of them very uplifting because i'm interested in the collaborative nature of how can this serve the whole and i think from the ego it's not interested in the whole at all it doesn't even believe there is a whole it's just how will this personally benefit me and it's seeing everything in terms of what personal benefits and and things like that and that's just so tiny it's like uh what would be the fun of that you know it's it's boring it it's very uh closed down contracting it doesn't feel good it doesn't even feel good so i'm i think i would tell anybody who's interested in a relationship start with the idea of connection collaboration that will be a joint mutual effort in blessing the whole and bringing a gift to the whole human race when you come from that perspective that's why we love Jesus and Buddha that's why we love Gandhi that's why we love Ramana Maharshi all these great mystics and saints because if we even if it's our neighbor we love them because if they're generous of heart and they're into that open mindedness and collaboration how beautiful it is beautiful and my answer for anyone that's watching this and wants to enter holy relationship and that is more sacred study the course every all the answers are there it will replace if you're ready yeah there are great books that can be the bridges out there they're your books um i just finished writing a book myself is a new version of the love languages that is based on much more higher consciousness than than the old version of the love languages that is about take the trash hour buy me a gift and i'll feel love i i felt the need for a more advanced language of love so i just finished writing a book so here we are creating bridges collaborating together but ultimately i think for the people ready for the course the course is the it's the last teaching you really gonna need because all the answers are truly there somebody just asked what is the name of your better five love language book it's not out yet as soon as the book is out make sure to follow me on on on facebook you will know but the name of the book is what would love say i will just share that for now what would love say which is based on the it's based on psychology but very much the energy of the book is the energy of course in miracles so yeah that's so beautiful and then in the title of this uh youtube and facebook whatever video comes out your alex gill is right there uh mentioned in the title and then her website uh is it alex gillcoaching.com that's it it's it's there in the description so you can find it find it there and it's been a beautiful week of alex's for me i i have had a string of alex's within the last couple weeks including this week of a singer who was from Barcelona Spain was touring Mexico and he invited me and some friends to come to his concert with strobe lights and all colors and and everybody's swaying and in the love vibe and then i got to do a nice talk with him uh at La Casa de Milagro his name was alex and said and then i said and then alex has contacted me alex gill so i'm in a glorious time with all the alex's that the holy spirit is sending and uh that's fantastic too you know we just we just say great i welcome it yes david this has been such a beautiful a holy collaboration with you and you are a model to me my followers um you are an inspiration so i am so thrilled to be collaborating with you my brother and thank you for everybody that have been present sending comments i'm very very grateful thank you for this dialogue beautiful thank you alex and thank you all of us everyone the tuned in you know i see we've got a bunch online and we love it so until the next time and god bless you god bless you