 authors at Alden, although I don't know if any of us are actually at Alden right now, but in spirit we are. So today it is my great honor to introduce our esteemed guests, Dr. Carolyn Bailey Lewis, who will be interviewing Dr. J. W. Smith about his 2019 book, From the Back of the Bus to the Front of the Classroom, My 30 Year Journey as a Black and Blind Professor. Dr. Smith earned a BA in History and Speech Communication from Indiana University in 1982 and an MA in Speech Communication from Purdue in 1985 and his PhD from Wayne State University in 1989. Dr. Smith has been teaching since 1983 and is a professor in the School of Communication Studies at Ohio University. He is a renowned researcher in the areas of communication and disability and African American rhetoric. In addition to the book that he's talking with us about today, he is also the author of the book Essays on Communication and the Blind and Visually Impaired, as well as numerous book chapters, conference papers and articles, including articles in the Braille Monitor, the flagship publication of the National Federation of the Blind. In 2004, Dr. Smith was awarded the National Federation of the Blind Educator of the Year Award and in 2007, the NAACP Image Award for Research and Teaching. He has served on the Ohio Governor's Council on People with Disabilities and as president of the National Federation of the Blind of Ohio. And in 2018, Dr. Smith was selected to serve on the State Rehabilitation Council for Opportunities for Ohioans with Disabilities. Interviewing Dr. Smith today is Dr. Carolyn Bailey Lewis and Ohio University Emerita in Communication Studies with over 38 years of experience as a public broadcasting and media professional. She earned a BS in 1971 and an MS in 1987, both from WVU and her PhD in communication in 2007 from Ohio University. Dr. Lewis has worked at West Virginia Public Broadcasting and at the WOUB Center for Public Media here at Ohio University. Dr. Lewis was the first African American in the United States to serve as a general manager in a public television station. In 1993, she was awarded the Neil S. Bucklew Social Justice Award from West Virginia University and in 2001, the Telly Award for her narration of Wandering Souls. In 2015, she was elected the hometown hero of Southeast Ohio by the American Red Cross. And in 2020, she earned the Medal of Merit for Professional Achievement from the Ohio University Alumni Association. So join me together in clapping with your mics on or off to welcome our very esteemed guests. We're so happy to have you here and very eager to hear everything you have to say. To the dean in his absence and thank you Dean Kelly and to Jen and the Aldrin Libraries. We appreciate this authors at Aldrin Opportunity and JW for asking me to be your interviewer. I appreciate that. My colleague, mentor, brother and friend, JW has spent more than 30 years inspiring, challenging and encouraging and shaping the lives of thousands of students. Along with effecting change for persons with disabilities in the university and Athens communities and beyond. Helen Keller said optimism is the faith that leads to achievement. Nothing can be done without hope and confidence. Like Keller, advocate, remarkable, extraordinary abilities, activist, living with no boundaries to courage and faith. Author, such is the exceptional life of JW Smith, his optimism, hope and confidence. Despite the disability, has that achievement beyond measure for this man of faith, humor and intellect. JW, good to see you again. It's always good to be with you, lady. When I teach classes at the beginning, sometimes I ask my students, who are you? Who do you want to be? And I'll say, well, I want to be a doctor, a lawyer, a teacher, a mechanic, nurse, whatever. I'll say, no, no, no, it's not the what, the who. So who is JW Smith? Who am I? I am a person who is inspired to inspire. I am a whistler and a hummer, which usually is a telltale sign of how I'm feeling, which is basically hopeful and optimistic most of the time. And I'm a person who likes to feel good and make others feel good. And who inspires you then, if you could name one or two people? There are so many. There was a drama teacher that I had in high school. Yes, I was in drama and I was in plays, one of them being Raising in the Sun. I was Walter Lee Younger, I'll never forget it. But a drama teacher named was Mrs. Hall. I don't talk enough about Mrs. Hall, but she taught me a valuable lesson one time. I was performing as a senior in high school at one of our rallies or assemblies, whatever it was. And I finished playing the piano and I had sung, I think it was God Bless America or something. And I went back to my seat and people were clapping and cheering. And I went back and relaxed and took it easy and was observing others. And about 20 minutes after that she came over and tapped me on the shoulder and she said, you know, it's okay if you clap for other people too. And boy, that just taught me such a valuable lesson. So I never have forgotten that. And then of course my grandmother that raised me, you know, I would say that all that I am is because of her. And she's just amazing. And then to meet my wife, Mary in 1986. And the fact that she's put it with me this long, I don't even know how that's possible. So I would say those are my inspirations. From the back of the bus to the front of the classroom, my 30-year journey as a black and blind professor published in 2019 by Monday Creek Publishing. It chronicles your 30 years as a black and blind professor in the field of communication studies and also looks at the experiences and how race and differently able to intersectionally have influenced documented encounters. So why write this book now? Well, I was thinking I'm getting old there. And I want to put some of these stories down before I forget them. And another reason to, you know, I don't know of any other black and blind professor in our field of communication. There may be someone else, but I don't know them. And in some ways that's awesome responsibility. So I wanted to leave like a trail for the next person that comes along in the field of communication studies. You know, that might learn something from my story. And then one day I was just sitting and I was thinking I was coming up on 2018-2019. I wanted to do a sabbatical and I was like, what do I want to do? And my mind went back to the first time I walked in the classroom with my PhD in 1989 at Indiana University, South Bend. And I was like, wow, that's been 30 years. Why not, why not, why not put down some of those stories, some of those memories? And the book was born. You're right, of course, as a blind person. So how did you do it? What were your processes and who helped you? Yeah, I mean, so many. You know, I mean, one thing being blind since birth, so it's the only life I've known. So I learned all the coping skills at a very young age. Now, you know, but this is before, you know, cell phones and internet and all these great gadgets now that would have made my life so much easier in many ways. But I learned Braille at a young age. I learned how to use readers at a young age as well. There's a skill to that. And so I don't even know where to start with the help. Just meeting people along the way. I think there's a chapter when I talk about my graduate days, when my wife literally typed my entire dissertation by me dictating it to her. I mean, literally night after night, she'd come in from work, night after night after night. You can't even, you can't even replace that kind of, that kind of wonderfulness. That's not a word, but it works for me. I've had great professors along the way. You know, I tell people, I had three types of professors when I was coming up this before ADA. The largest group where the people tried to help me and said to me, look, you're the first blinds you've ever had. I don't know what to do. You tell me how to help you and we'll make it work. The second group, thankfully, was much smaller, but still there basically said, look, you sit over there in the corner. Don't bother me. I won't bother you. I'll give you a B or C and let's get this done. It was not said that way, but it was understood. And then there were two or three that basically said to me, yes, this is 1970s, early 80s. I don't want you in my class. You don't want to be in my class. Let's not even go there. Thankfully, that large group was a group that worked with me. So I did everything from taking exams by tape recorder. Most of them I took by going to the professor's office and he would, he or she would read me the exam and say, hey, what's your answer? I mean, you can't fake it. You better know it. And I always could type. So I typed some, I did everything possible to get through whatever class I had to do. And traveling, I've never been afraid of traveling, you know, so I grabbed my cane and go and walking. So I, you know, growing up in Chicago and then Gary, Indiana, then Detroit. So I grew up in the big city. So I was never afraid of traveling as a blind person. It's all about confidence. So I, I was never afraid of that. So all I had to do is learn some of the basic skills. I had the right attitude for it. And then the final thing I'd say is I grew up with sighted people. I know that sounds weird, but a lot of blind people don't. And so they're not comfortable in the sighted world. I've always been comfortable with sighted people. So I've known how to communicate with sighted people. I've known how to make them feel at ease or, or lessen the stress when they come in contact with me. And that's been helpful too. I'm glad you mentioned traveling, because you know my story. Yes, I do. Well, you ought to tell it again, though. I think we'll go back a long way from the early days when I got here, or I'll say early days. In 1997 I got here and the Presidential Advisory Council on Disability and Accessibility Planning was in progress. And he had been a one person advocate on this campus trying to get things changed. And so here I come and then we become a two person, two people advocate team. And so I got to know Dr. Smith a bit. And then one day I was wanting to go somewhere and I had to go by myself on an airplane because my husband passed. And I saw him going up and down the street just whistling. I said, where you going? He said, Detroit. I said, with who? I didn't see anybody with him. And he said, I'm going by myself. How you going to get there? Going to Columbus and get on the bus? Get on the plane. Okay, so he inspired me and so many others. Like this quote says, you can do things you think you cannot do. So I'm thankful for you for that and for so many other things you've done. But you said you would like to pick two of these stories, favorite stories and anecdotes and tell them as exemplars of your academic journey. What's one of two of those stories that you want to tell? There's a nice segue. Let me tell the one about, I know you read the book, you know, you know this story, but it's one in grad school when I was at Wayne State University, which by the way is a third largest school in Michigan. People forget about that place. Like 30, almost 40,000 students there. Although most of them are, I don't know. There are people out there, who are just on the streets, but you know this story. But it's one in grad school when I was at Wayne State University, which by the way is a third largest school in Michigan. People forget about that place like 30, almost 40,000 students there, although most of them are, you know, late local and that kind of thing. But there's a lot of dorms, too. But so what I got there. I had to learn my way around campus, you know what I mean? and got some professional cane traveler to teach me, but I didn't have the time for that, you know. And I mean, I didn't want to waste their time because I didn't need that. So I said, what is the best way for a blind guy to learn his way around this town and this university? And somebody hit me and said, find another blind person. I'm like, okay, that's easier said than done. And went over to the disability office one day and I was a blind guy working there. And I said, hey, let me talk to you. We struck up a great friendship and he taught me all the tricks of the trades and there are tricks, you know, but that totally blind. Now he had not lost his sight until he was in his 20s. So he was not new, you know, he was newly blinded, but he had learned a lot of those tricks of the trade and he taught me around that campus. And one of those tricks was one day we were walking, it was a nice sunshine day, you know, and we were walking to go get some lunch at this restaurant called Johnny's. I'll never forget a Greek restaurant called Johnny's. He had their best bread. I had about two blocks from my office. So he would meet me at my office and we'd walk over because it was near his office. So when he'd walk over for lunch and then we'd walk to his office or I'd let him go and I'd walk back. So we were walking one day and we're talking in nice sunshiney bay and he said, stop. And I was like, okay. And he's like, listen. And I stood there and he's like, I was like, what, I mean, what are we listening to her? And all of a sudden on my left, these loud high heel shoes came flying by, zoom. They were, I mean, they were moving. And he was like, okay. He said, lock on to those high heel shoes and let's follow her. And we assumed it was her. She's going our way and let's see how far she takes us. We followed that, those high heel shoes all the way to that restaurant. And I hope she never knew we were following her like that. He's like, that's just one of the tricks. And I was like, oh my goodness, only another blind guy could teach another blind person something like that. So I had to include that. And he ultimately ended up coming to my wedding. I ended up coming singing at his wedding. It was an amazing relationship. Can you talk about the snake? Oh gosh. My public speaking teaching days. Which people always talk about, you know, how does a blind guy teach public speaking? I mean, that's in the book. You got to get the book to know how I had my little tricks. But I was teaching public speaking at University of Detroit. I never shall forget it. I don't think they call themselves that now. I think they're like Mercy College or something. And that was a cool winter morning. We used to hear like seven speakers. So I think it was a fourth speaker that day. At that time, we used to have a lot of demonstration speeches. You know, people would come in and teach us how to make a cake or pizza or some other crazy thing. But another thing they would do is sometimes bring in like their pets, you know? It's like, you know, so I was like, hey, this, you know, this is my pet and this is whatever, whatever. So this girl, she came up to me before classes. She said, do you mind if I, my boyfriend and I bring our, my cage, I'm speaking on Wednesday or Thursday. I said, no, I've got, I've had pets all the time. So I don't care. So when they came in that morning, I was a little concerned when they slid the cage beside me because it was like really quiet. I'm like, whatever, you know, maybe, I don't know. She got to speak and one of my tricks was to stand right near the podium so I can hear everything I could catch in terms of nonverbals and stuff like that. So I'm sitting there and she's like, reading her introduction like about, you know, two, three feet from my head. And I knew I was in trouble when she got to the end of her introduction line and she said, now I want you to meet my friend and pet, Sam the snake. And she reached over my back and pulled this ball constrictor out of her, out of the cage and let it wrap itself around her like a few feet from my head. And I'm like, oh my goodness, here we go. And she said, it's good, it's a little cool in here cause he's a little lethargic. And I'm like, yes, it is good. It's cool. She did her speech, put the snake back in the cage. Her and her boyfriend took it out and they never came back to class again. So I don't know if my face reveals that the kids seem to love it. I don't know why she never came back to class. After that, I said, you know what? No more live pets in this class, bring a picture, bring a stuffed animal, no more birds. Cause I had birds flying around, rabbits, no more live pets. I never shall forget that. And talking about issues of race, you discussed how some of your stories have been impacted by your race and your ethnicity. Yeah, you know, thankfully, you know, the one conclusion of this book is that thankfully I've been a blessed, I haven't had to deal with too much blatant racism, at least not confrontational. But you know, there's a one story from my graduate days when one of our more famous faculty, he was a big hockey fan, he loved hockey. And he was a big sports fan. So we talk about sports and one day he was joking, we were talking and we were talking about athletes interviewing after games, you know how they butcher the language sometime and they can't get a word out and you know, and this was like 1987 or something. And he said, now, again, I must admit, I don't know whether he was joking or like he had a look on his face, but I think he was serious. He said, you know, hockey players are the most intelligent. And I sort of chuckled and he walked off. And afterwards I thought, okay, now this may be just me, but in 1987, I don't think there was not one non Caucasian hockey player. And I thought to myself, I'd like to have that encounter back and not let that be the last statement. So that was an issue. And then, you know, here we, in our department, we had a black female apply for one of our jobs and they came here and they didn't get the job for a lot of reasons and probably should not have. But what her visit showed me when she left and she didn't get an offer, it showed me how lonely I was. Having her here for a couple of days, just being able to talk to her as a black female, it really crystallized to me how lonely I was. I mean, it took me a couple of months. I couldn't go to a faculty meeting for a couple of months because I didn't know how lonely I was. I didn't know how starved I was for cultural interaction and exchange. And that really, that actually kind of shook me up because I didn't see that coming. So that's at least two experiences where I'm pretty sure that it really turned the spotlight on the issue of race for me. What did you learn writing this book about yourself, your experiences, experiences rather than an academic book or an article that you didn't know before about writing this and publishing that you didn't know? What did you learn? That's a very good question. I learned that you know, age and time really does give you perspective that nothing else really can. As I was going down those memory lanes and thinking about some of those past experiences, I used to go to weddings and events and I hear when I was younger, I hear these older people say, yeah, 25 years ago I did this and I'm like, oh my God, how old are they? 25? And then I started doing the same thing. And I'm like, okay. So that was a crystal clear lesson for me. This process also taught me to really appreciate where I'm at. When I wrote the chapter about how I got to Ohio and why I'm still here and I got to relive why I stayed here. I mean, you have to read that chapter because it's a long story. I had no intention of coming to Ohio University. I'd never heard of it, never heard of Athens. And when I discovered that school at that time, writing this book just made me think about what it was like to come here and how fortunate I've been to be treated as a professor who just happens to be blind. Now that might sound like a fairly innocuous statement but this book taught me just how blessed I am. I have never heard like tokenized or trivialized or I've never felt like I was treated any different in any other faculty member here. That is an amazing, amazing concordance. When I finished the book, I sat there and I was like, I came here in 1993 and 20 some years later, yes, things have changed, people have changed, the department is different. But the humane, the humane, the humane, the humane, the humane, the humane, the humane, the humane, the humane, but the humanity is still here. I still feel respected and invited and I felt so good that I never wanted to take that for granted that I could put that down and I have wanted for years to put down that chapter, that story about how I came out. I've told the story in a variety of settings but to actually put down that chapter, I think it's chapter three, to actually put it down when I finished reading, I said to myself, now that's what I wanted to do for years to tell that story of how I got here and why I'm still here. That was almost cathartic for me. Your book is on Amazon and a couple of quotes that people gave in their reviews. As a black and totally blind individual, he muses about how this distinction has both colored and shed light or what might have been an innocuous or unremarkable encounter. This memoir is riveting because of its vulnerability, candid honesty and fresh transparency as well as the conversational tone and quality. It's an easy read but one that can also cause reflection and soul searching without much warning. So things just sort of sneak up on us. I know as you read them. So you dealt with Amazon and other booksellers. That experience was probably not new but what advice would you give to others who are thinking about writing but just don't know or publishing and don't know the process? First I'd say if you get a good idea, you know start putting it down. And it helped me to have written the manuscript. My goal was to write it while looking for a publisher and I did that and I got a couple rejections and that gets discouraging. It's like, I wrote one place that was ideal for this book and they wrote back and told me, we only published two books a year and we'd have like 200, I'm like, well, okay. So I finished the book, didn't have a publisher and I was like, okay, but at least I got the manuscript. So cause they always want to see a chapter or a part of it. So I could show them the whole book and I was talking to a friend and he said, have you heard of so-and-so locally? I'd never heard of Monday Creek and I sent them the book and they talked it over with their people and sent me back the contract and we started at Prost. It's been a wonderful experience. Not only are they local, but Jean is such a wonderful person, easy to get a hold of, easy to get the copies of books I need. I can get 10 copies or 200 copies, you know, she can have it done and just so supportive and it just made me feel good to be able to work with somebody locally like that. So I'm sure that not everybody's publishing experience is as awesome as mine has been because you got to find that right publisher. She makes suggestions, she helps where she can in terms of publicity and setting up marketing opportunities but the other part of it is just the invitational atmosphere of the company, you know, and she publishes everything from memoirs to children's books. I recommended her to another colleague of mine and now his book's coming out. It's going to be amazing and he did the same thing. He was looking for publishers and kept getting rejected and then getting contracts that didn't suit his and I said talk to her and he came here and went out to her to her place and the rest is history. I don't want to give his book away but it's going to be amazing. So that is how the process worked for me. She will support me and send me emails about book contests or ways to publish my, market my book. That's just wonderful and what I like about her too is she just sees a good, you know, sees a good product, you know, she and she's local. She's all about promoting Southeast Ohio. That, she is like a quiet gym around here that more and more people need to know about. Absolutely more and more need to know about. Dean Kelly and Jen, I know you want to leave time for questions. I just have a couple of more questions from those who are viewing. How much more time do we have? I'd say maybe another 10 minutes, Dr. Lewis. For interview. Yes. Okay, great. J.W., will there be a sequel? Will there be a sequel? Not like this. This is the last, so yes, I am revealing something today. So this is the last I'm going to write about me. I feel like I've gotten the story out. But don't tell anybody this. Starting next year, I'm going to write a novel, a mystery novel. I love adventure, mystery. I love books about assassins. I know, don't, don't. And so I'm going to write a book like that. I have this concept and I almost, I don't want to give it away because somebody might steal my idea and I will not be happy. But that's going to be my next thing. I'm going to spend next year writing this book. I've always wanted to try my hand at, you know, speeding traffic and mystery and so that will be my sequel. You've been teaching for more than 30 years and lots of experiences, lots of places you've gone, people you've met. How are you able to condense? I think the problem a lot of people have is it got so much. So how do you condense that? How did you do it into that book and determine which stories you were going to tell? Yeah, I, when I got the concept, I just took notes. I, I, I, it's chapter said, okay, what can I remember from my graduate days that will fit this experience? Like when I walked out of my advisor's office one day, we had met about the dissertation. And once I really recognized what I needed to do to do it, and I was like, oh my God, you know, you know, I'm blind. I have these limits. I didn't even own a computer at the time. I, I was like, and how am I going to do this research? I walked out of that office and went around the corner and I had about 10 minutes of pity and there's no, I don't, I don't even know how I'm going to do this. So those kinds of stories would come up with each chapter. And then my first job, I'm like, what happened there? The only thing I regret is not telling more about the, the national blind educator award. I, I should have included more about that process when I look, when it hit me after the book was done. And I was like, man, I should have expanded that because it was a great process. It was a national award. There was a great story done on it in the, in the Braille Monitor. I should have included it. So that's the one thing that I regret that I, that I wish I had put in. But the other condensing was, you know, was all a part of what, what, what fit the profile. And I've gone back over now that I've done and I've said, was there any story I missed? That other than the national, the blind educators, anything I've missed that I wish I could put in? And I'm pretty, I'm pretty, I'm pretty confident that I got the ones in that I wanted to get in, starting in 1985. Yes, especially the one too about my friend, the same guy that taught me the high heel approach to traveling. He and I decided to take a cross, a cross country trip on the bus from Detroit to Wichita, Kansas to attend this conference, which took four buses. You know, at that time, if you're a blind person, you could take a sighted person on with you for free. Well, I'm blind, my friend's blind, and we're cheat, we're grad students. I mean, come on. So we decided to cook up this scheme where he would pretend to be my sighted guide. So we would have to pay. So we were taking these buses and I'm pretty sure these drivers figured it out when he ran into a few doors, tried to sit us down and see what people were. I'm sure they were like, okay, but that was just stuff you did. That's another fun time we had. I went to a conference with you. If you've never gone to a conference with Dr. Smith, you must, one of the most fun times and interesting times you've ever had. He's one of the most humorous people that I know, intellectual, great sense of humor. I mean, you gotta have fun. You gotta, you know, life is too short and good God, we know that now. It's too short to, I mean, look, I don't want to minimize people. Oh, I'm going to say something else. People are struggling in lottery and so that's real. Now, I'm not advocating Pollyannishness, but I'm saying you got to do whatever it takes to get as much out of life as you can. And that reminds me, I don't think this review is on Amazon, but someone called me once and told me, you know, how reading my book, and I mean, you don't even know, you don't even know, I'm sure I'm not the only author who's gotten this, but you don't even know when you get, when someone calls you and they say, reading your book helped me literally continue to want to live my life. You know, what do you do with that? You just, you just, you just thank God for the opportunity. You umbly thank them because no one has to share that kind of thing. And that's, that's the power of communication. When I, when I perform, when I do music and sing, I'm always saying to myself, I have sung this song 20 times, but it might be the first time somebody's hearing this today and they may really need to hear it. So I want to slack off. Yeah, it's been a long day. It may be the third night of a three one night stand thing. Somebody needs to hear this song and I'm going to push myself to do it, even though I just did it last night. I've done it for 20 years. I'm tired of it, but if it's going to help them get through something, I'm going to give it all I got. As I close my portion and turn it over to Jen, I just want to say that you said in an interview that your big takeaway is that you're no different than anybody else, no more special and you're just blessed to be in this country and have this opportunity and the love and support you've had through the years, which made all of this possible. And I just want to add that you are a living testimony of a quote by Pablo Picasso. He said, I'm always doing that, which I cannot do. That's you in order that I may learn how to do it. So JW lives out his own feed that our differences can be strengths and that many people live more for affirmation than bread, and that we are responsible to all for all. He's aware about him that is gentle yet strong and a style of engaging both young and old alike. JW who sings and whistles along the way, as always, has been a pleasure. So Jen will now take questions from those of you who are viewing. And let me just say this. This is my, I mean, we are, you talk about one, two punch of OU. I mean, when they see us coming, I mean, we have, God has allowed us to do some wonderful things here in a limited amount of time. And she said this to me, so I'm going to say it to her publicly. You know, in many ways, she is the sister I never had and wanted to have. I have two sisters, one passed away last year, and her birth deal will be next week, and that's, that'll be tough. And then I have another sister, but we were, we were never really close. And so in many ways, Dr. Lewis is that sister that I wish, wish that I had had and I'm glad to have. Thank you so much for doing this. You're amazing. You're welcome. You've got me now. Can't get rid of me. Jen. Thank you so much, Dr. Lewis and Dr. Smith. Okay, we're going to open it up to audience questions now for either of our, our speakers today. You can either type your question into the chat and I will moderate, or you can raise your hand and then, you know, you can unmute and ask the question yourself. However, you feel more comfortable. Ask first. Dr. Smith, could you compare the process and the intellectual process and the differences between writing your dissertation and any of your books? That's a great question. Um, for me, so I sort of approached a dissertation, you know, it's more of a sort of scholarly thing. I was, as you might expect, I, I had to keep in mind the audience. And also the process of checking and rechecking the facts and the supporting documentation, you know, that was important. So that was very similar in the books that I've written as well. But the difference for me was to get comfortable with the personal side of the books that I've done. Not all of them. Like the campaign book, that was, you know, that was for a specific class and campaign communication. So that was driven by that. The essays on the blind and visually impaired. That was a compilation process in talking about a aspect of our area of the field that was very barren. So when I write, when I wrote this memoir, it was all about how much to disclose, how to tell a story that would be as important and informative to me that it might be for someone else. You know, I'm always so, so the, the, the deciding factor for me in either the dissertation or books is, can I answer the so what question? Why should anybody care? And I'm always asking that. If I picked up this chapter, picked up this book, picked up this dissertation, can I say as a, as a person in the audience, okay, I get that. I can get something from that. And I'm always asking that question. And I answer that better times than sometimes on others. But thank you for that question. It's a very good question. Thank you. All right, Dr. Smith, we've got a question and chat from Judy Kerry Nevin. She would like to know if you were ever thinking of pursuing singing before you decided to go for your advanced degrees. And, and what made you follow the path that you chose? Well, you guys are good. I started singing like 10, 11 years old. My brother and I, you know, we thought we were like, you know, we had the Jackson five. We thought we were like a Smith two out there at the time. You know, we had our little afros and he played drums and I played guitar. We started singing at those, at those times. And I started professionally singing as a teenager, gospel for the most part. The blind boys of Alabama have tried to sign me several times. I, they almost got me in 1982. They had to contract. I went to one of their shows. They had to contract or like, we'll give you a couple of hours to go pack and go with us. I mean, I almost did it. I wonder what my life would have been like if I joined up with them back then. But I always knew, see, I was a music therapist for a while. So I, I enjoyed the music, but I, eventually the therapist just wore, the therapy just wore me down. So I always knew that music would be a part of my life. But I, but once I made up my mind to get, get the PhD, I decided that I want to be a person that would teach by day and sing by night. So I didn't want to try to earn a living as a musician. I wanted to pick the spots when I wanted to. But another great question. All right. We have a couple of comments in the chat also thanking both of you. So Tasha, out of, out of way, excuse me. She says, I would like to thank this dynamic duo for your advocacy and willingness to share your experiences. So transparently, it is absolutely wonderful to see and hear both of you. And Beatrice, and I apologize, Beatrice. I cannot pronounce your last name. It says, this has been wonderful educational empowering. One is the presence of, is in the presence of greatness whilst listening to my friend, Mr. Feelgood. Thank you to my, to see both of my incredible friends. That's my buddy. Yeah. That's awesome. Yes. I actually have a question for you, Dr. Smith. You talked a little bit about the different processes for writing this memoir and your thesis. And I'm wondering, what are you looking forward to most in your next novel, your mystery novel in that process? Getting away from both approaches. I want to just let my imagination run wild. So that's what I'm looking forward to. Like really upping my creativity. And it'll probably be a real mess when I get done, but I'm looking forward to trying it. Okay. And it looks like John McCarthy, you have your hand up. Would you like to ask your question? I would. Thanks very much. Really enjoyed this. I went to Amazon, since you brought that up before. And I was reading a comment by Dr. Lewis. And you, in your comment, you talked about disability coming before race. And I was just wondering if you both could just talk about that, maybe a little bit more. For me, it's why. Why is that so salient? And just, I was hoping to hear about that from both of you. Dr. Lewis, why don't you start that one? That's an interesting question. Thank you, John. If I decide to go somewhere, I don't think about what color I am, but can I get through the door? If I go to a lodging facility or hotel, can I get in the bed? Can I get through the bathroom? Can I get to the restaurant? I'm going on a bus. I mean, things are much better now, especially since the ADA. But those are things that you still are concerned about. Sometimes I would have a scout to say, go in there. If we stop somewhere at a restaurant, to the restroom and to the seats are not too close together. So I'm not worried about, no, I can get in a place. That's not the issue. I know I can get to campus and get to school, but can I get up the hill? Can I get on the elevator? There are some elevators on campus, believe it or not, that you can get in them, but you can't close the door. So you learn where these spaces are, where ramps are good to use, things have changed. And what just the climate, the environment, will be like the structures. And so that's the first thing you think about. If there's an automatic door opener, is it going to come back and hit me in the face? Or is it going to be okay that I can get through the door? So John, that's the reason that you think about disability first. And then you think about race second. John, I think I mentioned in the book, in the first part, I say, I do a little thing. I may have done it when I've spoken over in your place, but I tell people, close your eyes. And I take out my cane and I say, when you open your eyes, tell me what you see first, a blind person or a black person. And invariably the blindness wins. And I think that is still true. Now, what's so ironic about that is probably John, 50 years ago, the reverse might have been true, right? In so many ways. So I think, Dr. Lewis, you can agree or disagree. I think in some ways it's gotten better in that we both sort of feel that in most cases, the differently abled sort of supersedes the race issue, except in certain really specific context. That's a great question. I agree. I went to a conference one time in Norfolk. My room was on the 16th floor. So I'm always trying to get a lower floor. At least I can just scoot down the steps if there's a fire or anything. And I said, do you have a lower room? What would I do if there was a fire? All they told me is we know where you are. So I'm not concerned about what color I am in those rooms. So that's the bottom line. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, these hierarchies that are around there when you start looking at those. Yeah, very interesting. So thanks for that comment. And I was going to say, in addition to your example there, Dr. Smith, with what do you see first, that, and temporarily able-bodied people, I think are the two things that I will always use with my students. So you've left me with both of those and I appreciate it. You're so welcome. All right. I think we have time for one last question. And it's in our chats. And Judy, Kerry, Nevin is wondering, Dr. Smith, what your editing process is like. Could you describe that for us? Oh, great, great, yeah. For me, first, I write the book in my head. I have to get the outline and the concepts in my head. So I take down notes. I can't just write the manuscript straight. I take notes. And then what has worked best for me, I pray about Lord finding me a good typist, someone that can type fast, but also I give them a certain amount of editorial license. And you know the best way I write? I walk and I talk. So I walk around the office and I talk and it's up to them to get it down for me. And then we go back and edit and clean it up. But the old preacher in me, I need to stand up and walk around and talk and not have to worry about somebody can't spell or can't get it or can't keep up. I got to find the right person to do that. And I was so blessed to find a grad student here. I was talking to her one day and it's like something said to me, ask her, oh, was she great. She could just sit here and then she would say, what about this word and drop it in so casually? And I had the opportunity either approve it or disapprove it, but she could do it in a way that wouldn't break up my flow. But you know it's constantly editing. And then for this book though, I had another person that I really respected and I would send them each chapter. Please tear it apart. Tell me, are you getting it? Tell me what you would recommend. What changes you'd make. And sometimes it's in back changes. I would accept them. Sometimes I'd say, no, I like it this way. That worked well for me. And I like that process for me. And you had a wonderful book signing too. Oh man, yeah, that was great. I mean, a little professor book center here. So go help my friends out. And every dime that book sales down there, it's all for him, that store. I want that store to still. So I get no cost of that. Go support them. But it was a wonderful book signing. It had 30, 40, 50 people come through there in that two-hour span. It was wonderful on October 4th, 2019. Yeah, it was just a wonderful time. I had never had one, so I didn't know what to expect. It was awesome. And this has been awesome too. I mean, good God, the time's gone and I love it. Thank you both so much for the fabulous stories, for sharing your time. It has been wonderful. And I can't believe the time is over already. Yeah, so I think Jen's gonna pop a link into the chat. That little avow form. And we would like all of you to please give us feedback about how we can continue to provide programming that you're interested in attending and as fabulous as this. And I would like to thank Jen for all of her hard work as she did all of the hard work to get these two people here with us today. It has been great. And finally, we are very happy that you might consider joining us on November 16 at 2.30 for our next event, where Dr. Jenny Klein, Ohio Professor of Art History, will be interviewing Carol Genshaft and Deidre Hamler, who are co-curating a exhibit at the Columbus Library called Ragging on Art, the Art of Amina Brenda Lynn Robertson's House and Journal. It will be very exciting. Maybe as exciting as this. Thank you both so, so much. And have a wonderful day. Thanks everyone for joining us.