 Welcome to Hawaii, the state of clean energy, for our Energy Wednesday show. Jay Fidel is out of town, and so I'm Maria Tome, and I'm hosting our guest, Anu Hiddle, today, as we discuss the subject of sustainability in June. Now, in May, we talked about transportation, and there is a lot of overlap between transportation and sustainability, so I'm happy to say we'll be able to talk about both topics today with our guest. Thank you, and welcome, Anu Hiddle. Thank you. Thank you for having me. So, you're the coordinator for the Commission on Climate Change Adaptation and Mitigation, and you're located in DLNR. Correct. So, I'm administratively housed at DLNR at the Office of Conservation and Coastal Lands, and the Commission was brought into being or created by Act 32 last year. So, in October of last year was its first meeting as a body. It's about 20 members, and it has a cabinet-level people, and then it has heads of—or the chairs of relevant committees, and then the heads of county planning departments. So, it's a pretty high-level all-state commission, and I am the coordinator for that commission, so, you know, I was hired on a few months ago, and we're just getting going. Well, congratulations. Thank you. Yeah, that sounds like quite a task. Yeah. You know, bringing together such a diverse group of experts and policy folks to discuss such a huge topic as sustainability and climate change and adaptation and mitigation. So, where do you start? I mean, where are you in this? I guess the first step is to get people on the same page. Right. And so, that's a very good point. Climate change is a myriad of different problems and affects different situations, affects everything. So, how do you start with everything, right? Yeah, right. So, the commission started with a focus on sea-level rise, because that's important to Hawaii, and they published—approved a report that was created and a technical report on sea-level rise and adaptation to it. And so, essentially, that's been the commission's first product as such. So, we started with that on the adaptation side. How does that—how does climate change affect Hawaii, right? So, we started with that. And then, it was expanded to mitigation as well. So, we're thinking about, well, you know, what affects Hawaii on the—or, rather, what can Hawaii affect on the mitigation side, correct? So, on the mitigation side, when we look at Hawaii, it's a small—basically a small set of islands. It's a small state. Overall, energy use is not very high. We don't have much industry. We don't have that much agriculture. Really, it's—our emissions are coming from our grid. So, electricity that we produce from dirty fuels, it's coming from transportation, much of it from ground transportation and aviation and shipping. And so, those are really the areas where we started looking. Now, on the energy side, as you know, on the power sector side, there's been a lot going on in the last 10 years, right, with the White Clean Energy Initiative and the renewable portfolio standards and, you know, basically making our grid clean, that's the sort of the simple version of it. So, how do we make our grid clean? How do we produce clean power to power our houses, businesses, so on? So, the Commission thought, well, if that's sort of taken care of, which it isn't really taken care of, but there are some—it's being regulated, it's being looked at, there are some standards in place, some laws. So, we started thinking about—the Commission started thinking about turning its attention to ground transportation. That's sort of the next logical place to look and to sort of cast about, see—essentially, that's what my task was, the first three months, was to just look at the landscape, what is the landscape, and then report back to the Commission with findings. Right. So, have you completed that report yet, or still your own? So, you know, it's sort of an endless task. But the main thing that I came up with, I looked at several articles, research articles, articles in the news. I looked at the laws. I looked at three big reports that have recently, in the last three years, summarized the situation for Hawaii for ground transportation. And one of them was the State Energy Office's Commission report on ground transportation strategies. It was—it came out in 2015. Another was—it's a recent one, the Rodium Group, you know, it's called Transcending Oil. And they talk about transportation. And then a third one is actually published by the utility, by HECO. And they look at electrification of transportation in response to the goals for the state. And so I looked at these three and basically summarized them into—not to negate anyone's work, but I wanted to make it simple for everyone. That's a good thing. And so I summarized it into four acronyms, basically. Excellent. And the strategies, it seems, it boils down to you want to go from SOV, which is a single occupancy vehicle, to HOV, which is a high occupancy vehicle. So you want to go from one person in one car to a lot of people in one car or a bus or whatever, shared rides, et cetera. And you also want to make everything cleaner. So you want to go from internal combustion engine, which is ICEV, to ZEV, which is your zero-emission vehicle. So eventually you want to be clean. So you want to have fewer vehicles in the mix. And you want that fleet to be cleaner. So that's basically what it boils down to. Now, as you know, of course, there are lots of nuances to this. And there are many strategies. So how do we get there and what do we do? And that's something we can discuss, depending on what you think is entertaining. Oh, this is interesting. This is excellent. Because sometimes when people think, oh, transportation, we're going to do clean transportation, the first thing they think of is a vehicle. And they think of, oh, we're going to change the vehicle to be cleaner. And that's the extent. Now, that's an important part of it, because you do need vehicles to become cleaner and more efficient. But then there are the bigger picture questions of how do we design our cities so that you don't need so much transportation, especially congested conditions, so the VMT piece of it. And then, of course, the question of how are you powering your, what are the sources for your alternate fuels or your electricity? Now, I noticed it was very clever. You snuck in another acronym in there, VMT. Oh, sorry, vehicle miles of travel. Yes, yes. And that is, I promise, that's probably the only other acronym we'll talk about, right? Right. So that's exactly right. And we're looking at, so that's what the commission is looking at. What sorts of priorities should be recommended to the state? What's the current state of play? Where are the gaps? What strategies will give us what we need in terms of our stated goals? So whatever the mayoral goals say, 100% renewable for ground transport by 2045. The Hawaii Clean Energy Initiative had a 70% clean energy goal for transport by 2030. And so there are all these different goals out there, and everyone's sort of wondering, well, how are we going to get there? So that's really the big question, is how? Right, right. So I think you had some ideas on what might be something that would support change in more than one area. So if you could share those. One thing I wanted to pick up on was what you said about vehicles, right? So you said that when people think of transportation, they think of a car, a single occupancy vehicle, a car. And that is something that is a very interesting and perhaps a cultural shift that needs to be made. So many transportation experts will say that a single occupancy vehicle, a car, is something of the past. It's a pernicious thing. It's something from the 20th century. It's not something going forward that we want to look at. And here's why. So cars are expensive in terms of life, loss of life. They create fatalities, accidents. In Hawaii, Hawaii leads the nation in pedestrian fatalities from transportation, from auto accidents. So we are about 27% higher than the rest of the nation than the average in terms of pedestrian fatalities. It's also cars are expensive because of congestion and time that's lost in sitting in traffic. Everybody in Hawaii knows that in Honolulu, at least. Coming downtown, you know, your commute is probably two or three times longer than it really should be. So these things have all been quantified in terms of dollar figures. Last year in the U.S., about congestion cost us about $305 billion. So that's an interesting number because the Green Climate Fund, which nations pledged at the Paris Agreement and so on, they said that we should have a Green Climate Fund. That fund is $100 billion. And we have contributed to the U.S. before this administration came on, had pledged $10 billion. So if we were not sitting in traffic, we'd be saving three times. It's three times the amount of that. So $100 billion is the Green Climate Fund. And we spend in our country alone $300 billion sitting in traffic. So there's the time spent. There are the emissions produced. So that's the last one I was coming to. There's the money. And there's the pavement. You know, we're building cities for cars. If we are building a city for cars, then we are paving the roads and providing the parking lots and dedicating a lot of space to this method of transportation. And so that's the question we need to answer as a society, is that do we want houses, i.e. garages, for cars? Or do we want them for people? You know, when you look downtown and you see all these parking garages and you think, there are cars sitting in here. There are homeless people around, you know. It seems a little backward, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah. So there are many potential benefits from having a more efficient transportation system. You know, not just efficient in BTUs per mile. Sorry, British thermal units per mile. Sorry, occasionally escapes. Yeah, so not just more efficient in terms of energy use, but more efficient land use, creating the cities that are more livable and more appealing, as well as redirecting our resources more ever possible to better uses. Yeah, so I think the transportation seems to me as a very good place to start a discussion of, you know, how can our transportation objectives, our energy objectives, and our climate change objectives be synergistic. How can they merge what aspects of a plan will support all three? Right, so those are the issues that people want to discuss and that the Commission is looking at, is what are the strategies that will lead us to that outcome that we want? And really, we need to be looking at strategies, not just in terms of what will it cost us or what are the emissions reductions, but also what do we gain from it? So, do we gain emissions reductions towards our goal, significant reductions? Do we gain things like getting rid of congestion, less wear and tear on our streets, and therefore we spend less on our streets for cars? So, we need to look at all those things, and I think the next step will be really to identify those strategies where we can get the largest return on that investment that we make. Yeah, yeah, so that'll be really interesting when your planning is done. Can you say anything, so we know where, we have some idea in general where we want to go. We want to get out of the single-occupant vehicle into higher occupancy or more diverse modes wherever possible. Maybe it's not even a vehicle, maybe it is the complete streets and the bicycles and a pedestrian access where maybe now there is a barrier maybe to the pedestrian experience. And then, of course, the question of the fuel for whatever vehicles we do need, because we are going to need continuing numbers of vehicles, and if they're integrated into a better system, there's still a question of what do you fuel them with? And so, I guess electrification was one of your interests. Yeah, so cleaner fuel, but first, before we even get into cleaner fuel, I think efficiency of vehicles, of engines. So, if you have an internal combustion engine at this point, just converting it to a hybrid internal combustion engine will help you cut emissions by half. So, that alone would cut without any infrastructure. So, hybrids are available and gas guzzlers are available. What can you do to encourage one over the other? Is there anything? Well, of course, everyone I've talked to who's not on the political side of things says, a carbon tax. So, tax carbon, the amount of carbon you emit or use, tax that. But of course, everyone then says, well, but that's not politically feasible. And a few states have tried it. So, they've not passed a carbon tax. And I think if Hawaii wanted to be really forward thinking, it would be the state that would do that. Okay, well, let's go to, sorry, let's come back to that. After the break, we have a very quick break. Don't leave. Thank you very much. Hey, baby, that's you. I want to know, will you watch my show? I hope you do. It's on Tuesdays at one o'clock and it's out of the comfort zone. And I'll be your host, RB Kelly. See you there. Hello, I'm Cynthia Lee Sinclair. I have a show called Finding Respect in the Chaos. It's all about women's rights and gender equality. It's a place for survivors of abuse to come on and tell their stories and a place for advocates to come on and share important resources so that people can get past the abuse and into the hope and healing that's on the other side. I hope you'll join me every other Friday at three o'clock for Finding Respect in the Chaos. I'm Cynthia Lee Sinclair on thinktecawaii.com. Hi, I'm Pete McGinnis-Mark and every Monday at one o'clock, I'm the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Research in Munna. And at that program, we bring to you a whole range of new scientific results from the university, ranging from everything from exploring the solar system to looking at the earth from space, going underwater, talking about earthquakes and volcanoes, and other things which have a direct relevance not only to Hawaii, but also to our economy. So please try and join me one o'clock on a Monday afternoon to thinktecawaii's Research in Munna. And see you then. So before we left, we were talking about different things we could do to get folks to choose more efficient vehicles. And the topic of a carbon tax came up. I guess we do have the barrel tax. That's right. We do have the barrel tax. It's only on oil. And so it's not on all fossil fuels. And it's quite low. So if you really started to bring in the social cost of carbon and pushed it up, that's at least what most economists think, that then it would start making a difference. But carbon tax aside, because it's a difficult topic to address and probably a pipe dream at this point, I don't know. As I mentioned, there are five other states that have actually introduced legislation on pricing carbon. So it's not that much of a pipe dream. But I think some other strategies, one of the things that came out of that state energy office report was using basically the two main things was looking at VMTs, your vehicle miles traveled. So reducing those, if you had strategies to reduce those. And then to basically make your fleet more efficient. So those were the two main things. And then as part of that, as part of the vehicle miles traveled, so if you're looking at how many trips or miles you're doing per vehicle, you may not need to do as many if you lived close to school, work, whatever. And if it was possible to live close to those things. And then also, if you had basically transit that would take you in, mass transit or whatever, and you had people from the bus talk to you about this. So and that's what they're, you know, that's that transit oriented development that you must have talked about as well. I think we got to that. But yeah. Okay. Okay. That is definitely part of the picture. Right. And when you think about it, I mean, it's not it's not such a complicated topic. It's just when you think about some of the European cities that were built around squares and plazas and you walk to these places or people bicycle or, you know, and here we have bike share now and the electric scooter share, those scooters and so on. Anyway, so you have different different options. Of course, our roads are not built to handle it. I've heard so many people grumping about bike lanes on King Street. And, you know, so it's hard to just add one little thing in and expect it's going to make a difference. So we're really not talking about just making a little difference. We're talking about a transformation, right, a way a different way of thinking about your car. So not that cars would go away, but that cars would car ownership single ownership would probably go away. So imagine a future where your car where you did not own a car, which now costs you about $8,000 a year. How many Uber and Lyft rides is that? That's a lot, you know, and if you were to share an Uber and Lyft ride, you know, you can you can start seeing, okay, and then down the road are coming this new technology, you know, autonomous vehicles and imagine you had pods and drones and things that would give you your deliver your groceries so you wouldn't need it for grocery shopping. And all of a sudden, you're not doing anything in a car anymore. But what you're doing is maybe surfing either on the internet or on the ocean, you know, so you have more free time. So a society of the future looks like that where you have more free time. So I've heard them talk about transportation as a service as part is in capturing some of those concepts and, you know, maybe you wouldn't have your own car in your own garage, but the ride share thing and, you know, the vehicles could be centrally located and you could, you know, like a zip car where you need it, you book it on your phone or whatever and you go and you use it and then you put it back where it was. And you don't need to have, you know, everybody doesn't have to have the space for the car and the maintenance of that particular vehicle and the insurance and, you know, all in the same way. So, you know, so those are very, you know, interesting dynamics, especially, I guess they start in the cities, a lot of this. And I don't know if you've heard something similar that in many cases, the number of people who even bother to get a license has gone down in the large cities, especially. That's right. I've heard that this is the lowest percentage of high school students with driver's license that have a driver's license ever. Yeah. So, it seems there might be some convergence there between, you know, the vehicles becoming more capable of, you know, the autonomous vehicles. Of course, I personally think that's going to take a while to, you know, to really make a noticeable difference. But I do think that it's coinciding with people not wanting to take their eyes off their cell phones and so they shouldn't be driving anyway. You know, so it is, you know, that's another thing we had talked about, the cost of the single occupant vehicle, you know, in terms of congestion and fuel and emissions and money and space. But there's also, you have to focus on this and you could be doing other things. So, you know, how do we capture some of those trends as we design not only our new areas, you know, and our new concepts of what a new city would look like, but also the redevelopment of our existing spaces. Right. So, I think one thing is you have to make single ownership expensive. That's not something people want to hear. But if you make that more expensive and the high occupancy cheaper or more attractive, then it's going to change, that balance is going to change. I mean, think back to when gas was $5 a gallon and the bus was going full and it was not even stopping at bus stops. Right. So, you see a big change. So, you can change. So, it's very elastic. You can see a difference in behavior, right? Price changes. Now, it also, people often say, well, what about people who are low income, you know, and people who are, well, there are a couple of things with the low income side. One is that people seem to think that low income groups use the bus, so high income groups do not want to use it. That's one. That car ownership is equated with more high income and bus riding with lower income, you know. And I think that is something that is, first of all, not necessarily true. It may be here right now, but I don't think it needs to be that way. I think that if you're looking at, if you are someone who value, if you value your time and you say, that's again going back to that congestion and how much it costs. So, if you value the fact that your time is worth something, then the minute you get on the bus, you can start working or doing something else, then that's a different equation, right? And so, it's not a high or low income kind of thing. I've also noticed for myself that when I take the bus, I'm less stressed when I get to my destination. I don't know, I just see it because you're, you know, of course it depends, you know, but you don't have to find parking at the end of it. That's right. You know, and so there are many benefits, especially in Honolulu to use that. Right. But also, the vehicle miles of travel and your city design is one thing, but the vehicle efficiency is the other piece. Has anybody quantified the potential? I think it would be hard to quantify a change in your city design, especially to allow mixed-use development, the complete streets and everything like that, as far as emissions, carbon emissions go. But the vehicle fuel efficiency, if I choose a fuel-efficient vehicle versus one that isn't, am I as an individual actually making a measurable difference there? I mean, is it just a negative sense? Well, you're cutting, just by hybrids alone, you're cutting your emissions down by half, right? So, you are making a difference. On the global level, I don't know that you're making that much of a difference, but it's like saying, well, I'm not going to have a straw with my margarita, so, you know, is that making a difference? So, I'm going to leave that up to you to decide if that makes a difference, but you cut your emissions by half. That's one thing you can do without even changing the infrastructure, without looking for an EV charger, an electric vehicle charger, or anything. So, that was the other side of it, so you're looking at fewer trips, more people in higher-occupancy vehicles, you're looking at buses or, you know, other forms of transit, ride share, whatever. But you're also looking at fuel efficiency, and then you're looking at what kind of fuel. So, if you're looking at what kind of fuel, you're thinking about electrification of transportation as like the one that everybody goes to. In Hawaii, that's a unique situation right now. We are trying to make our electricity generation cleaner, but right now, we generate electricity from very dirty fuel. And so, our emissions are high. If you look at not just tailpipe, which is what comes out of your car's tailpipe emissions. So, for an electric vehicle, it's argued that there are no tailpipe emissions. But in Hawaii, if you're looking at well-to-wheel emissions, so how did that electricity get sourced? We actually did an analysis on that one at one point. And because, at that point, the electric vehicles were not what they are today. They were actually even less, you know, they were less efficient. So, they weren't just good. But even back then, if I had a 24-mile per gallon car, which was considered good back then versus an electric vehicle that got the same output on the duty cycle that, you know, the exact same, not just your daily driving that could vary, but exact same cycle, the electric vehicle was twice as efficient for energy unit in. Now, since then, we've gotten more efficient on the electric vehicle side, and we've gotten more diversified on the production side. So, I don't know what it looks like. I don't know if you've looked at it, but I would expect that when I looked at it through the alternative fuels data center, they talk about how our electric vehicle emissions are actually higher, slightly higher than our hybrid. Oh, hybrid. See, now that you've got the hybrids, that's what you're comparing. Yeah, but it is definitely less than an internal combustion engine. Yeah. Yeah. I would say, so we've only got about a minute left. So, I would ask you your thoughts on this whole question of, well, Hawaii's small, and so our emissions don't matter, whereas other people say, you know, if Hawaii doesn't care, you know, who would care? And somebody needs to lead the way, show how, you know, how it might be done, you know, and set a good example, and we have an outsize influence in that way. What do you think about it? Yeah, so Hawaii's a small state, and what we do probably doesn't matter in terms of the actual absolute quantities, but it does show how we can help other states ratchet up their ambition, and that is what we're doing through the national effort of 17 governors, the United States Climate Alliance, is working together to, so these are big states like California, New York, and then little ones like Delaware and Hawaii, and we're all in there and we're showing each other what we can do to ratchet up ambition, work on the low-hanging fruit, and figure out what to do with those fruit that are not so low-hanging. That's where your engineers come in. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you so much for being here today, and I found this really interesting. I know we can have another one soon to cover some more ground. Oh, no pun intended. Okay, thank you very much. Thank you. And thank you for watching. This has been Think Check Hawaii and the Hawaii State of Clean Energy.