 really happy to be here with Vicks Anderton. We're gonna be talking about perfectionism. Vicks has written a book about it. She has coaching and mentoring and group programs around this kind of thing. And just really, this is a wonderful topic. I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of the people watching and listening. And thank you Vicks for being here and I'll let you introduce yourself and share with us anything you'd like about your background and why you love working on this topic. Well, thank you George. Thank you for having me. So I am an embodiment coach for recovering perfectionists over children. To do with people is support them back into connection with their somatic wisdom as well as their intellectual wisdom, their rhythms and cycles and then the people around them. And so for me, that's kind of the three components that helps people live more authentically to turn the volume down on me in a critic and still be able to get stuff done in the world. That was really important, I think. So yeah, I care a lot about nervous system regulation. That feels like really foundational for me. And then I work with embodied coaching techniques, a lot of authentic relating and cyclical living. And I think it's also really important for me to say that I am a recovering perfectionist. So this work is very much drawn from, yeah, from my journey and figuring out how I could be in relationship with my perfectionism differently. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, thank you. Just give me one moment here. All right, so this is so interesting because perfectionism usually, I don't know, people often think of it either as a character flaw. They're stuck with it for life or it's like something to have to work really hard on. And when they work on it, it's like a mental thing. They just have to like, it's either a mental thing or they just have to like pull themselves up by their bootstraps and just like, get on with it kind of thing. And you have a much more like holistic and kind of deeper view on the stuff. So wherever you wanna start with it, like I said, I'm curious about two things. The idea that is it a character flaw and secondly, how does it connect with the embodied experience? Yeah, well, firstly, I mean, I think this approach of like perfectionism, I have to overcome or I have to fix for me is perfectionist thinking in action. It's like, oh, if only I wasn't a perfectionist, then I would be good enough to do all the things I want to do. So yeah, perfectionism is a character flaw. I think it is a really normal human experience. I don't think I need many people who don't have it in some way, shape or form. And especially- I'm so sorry, Vicks. I'm gonna pause you for the, we're having a little bit of audio issues one moment. All right, so we're gonna now have a different mic and hopefully it'll be better. So start over, tell us again, perfectionism isn't a character flaw to overcome. What does that mean? No, no, so I think, so firstly, let me say perfectionism, I don't think is the drive to be perfect. I think it is the story that I am not enough and therefore I have to be different. I have to do more in order to feel like I'm enough to be safe, to be loved, to achieve the things that I want to in life. And I don't think that's a character flaw. I think it's a very normal human experience. I think it's a coping strategy that lots of us develop fairly young in life, alongside people pleasing, overthink. They're all of these coping strategies are ways that we keep ourselves safe and keep ourselves loved. And they work because our bodies are incredibly adaptive and if they didn't work, we would have picked a different strategy. So what happens is they become overdeveloped strengths because they work, they become our go-to. So the thing we keep practicing and become really, really good at them. And over time, it means that they become our only option. So for me, my perfectionism means that every time I'm in a new situation, my nervous system freaks out a little bit, which is where the embodied, this is not a mindset thing. Like this is like the neurophysiological feeling, I can't speak. Yeah, I think we know what you mean, yeah. In my nervous system. Yes. To respond to uncertainty, discomfort and unsafety. And you can't ball those through that. That isn't something to overcome. And like I said, the attempt to try and overcome it is your perfectionism in action. Really interesting, really good. I love that. It helps us accept ourselves more as we put it in this way. And we appreciate that we have been trying to keep ourselves safe, keep ourselves accepted. And we can appreciate that side of ourselves. And yes, that means, okay, it's worked up to now. And what can we do to make it work even better, I guess, without so much stress, without so much strain, right? Yeah, the way I like to frame it is like, how could I have more choice? Because perfectionism means I only have one option and that's do better. So like how can I have other ways of being, other ways of being embodied that give me more choice so that maybe in one situation, I wanna be able to be more relaxed or more easeful or more joyful. But there might be lots of times when like actually, no, my perfectionist tendencies are actually really helpful right now. Yeah, that's really interesting choice. And it's yes, because when I'm perfectionistic, there's only one choice, which is to make it more perfect. Which is to keep going until I'm no longer judging myself until I collapse on the floor exhausted and then I have to put this thing out there. There's only one choice. And so when you say that the way you approach this is to have more choice, it means, yeah, I could choose to put this thing out there, I could choose to send this thing, I could choose to publish this, I can choose to be done with this project at any stage along the way and not have to save some imaginary ideal endpoint because of course, as a recovering perfectionist myself, I know there is no endpoint, it just keeps, there's always ways to make it better. Okay, so you mentioned the embodiment piece of it and I wanna bring that in now because I think a lot of folks watching this are interested in it or some are just learning about and how important it is. How does perfectionism relate to, I mean, you have studied embodiment and practiced it and coached others with it for so long, like how does it relate? How does these two things relate? Cause usually when I hear of embodiment, like most people think yoga or breathing or meditation and it's like seen as a separate practice, that you just kind of like do it, you become a more well-rounded person or more emotionally resilient or something like that, but to bring perfectionism into it, that was really interesting. Yeah, so for me, and there's something that I studied with Mark Walsh who I know that he's a friend of yours as well, that embodiment, when I think about it is it's how I am. Like it's the shaping that I have in any moment. It's my biography is written into my body and how I hold myself, how I move. And so bringing in body lens to perfectionism because there's two things, awareness. So I can notice when I'm in the pattern and then choice I can put my body in a different shape. And so for most perfectionists, I think perfectionism shows up in two embodied states. One is the kind of the sympathetic activation. So everything is forward, focused. How do I grip the steering wheel harder? How do I do more tunnel vision kicks in? Like it's all about this. Yeah. So I'm like, there's a lot of tension in my pelvic floor. My gaze is really narrowed. It's harder for me to look at you. Everything kind of comes in. And then the other way that it can show up is more of a kind of a collapse, this sort of like helpless, oh, I'm small. Oh no, I can't do anything right. Like it's all hopeless. How am I ever gonna do anything again? And there's kind of like procrastinating inaction that kicks in. And I'm exaggerating the movement there. But imagine most people can kind of resonate with one or both of those. And so for me, like when I'm kind of working with my perfections and I want to have more choice, what I need to do is bring myself back to, back to kind of center, back to a place where I can feel the back of my body. So I often coach with this like big cushion behind me because it means I can like relax back into my chair a little bit. So I'm not leaning too far forwards, but I'm also not collapsed back. And like I have space in front of me. Like I can do things. I still have agency, which I think is something a lot of perfectionists think, oh, if I stop trying, if I stop being here, then I'm never gonna get anything done because I'm gonna lose all my ability to act. So there's something for me about being connected to my back body and still being able to take action in front of me that feels like the right balance a lot of the time. That's brilliant, yeah. And for me, like the word flexibility comes to mind. It's like, yeah, it's like you're working with your body to be more flexible. That makes, it helps your mind state to be more flexible. And therefore you can choose at what point you're completed with something. If you're a goalkeeper in soccer, if you saw a goalkeeper like, yeah. Oh, which way is that goal gonna go? They're not gonna be very effective goalkeeper. Like goalkeepers are flexible, like they're limba, they're responsive. So when something happens, they're able to move quickly and deal with it rather than being stuck in this, almost like this kind of freeze response and heightened tension that they say stops us being creative, it stops us seeing options, we get reactive rather than responsive. And yeah, nothing good comes from stress. As Mark likes to say, it makes us dumb conservative and mean, which is like, none of those are useful for being, for humaning, let alone like running a business or being coach or doing anything else in the world. Not that there's anything wrong being politically conservative necessarily, but yes. No, no, no, conservative is in a uncreative and like sticking to what is familiar. Small things. Rather than being more courageous and adventurous, which is what we need many of us watching here are our solopreneurs and we need to continually be exercising our creativity or courage. And okay, so there's something else you talk about that you work with, you've had programs on this, which is cyclical, like the idea of cyclical living or cyclical being and rhythms. So how does that relate to perfectionism? I think a lot of people who are watching this understand the value of paying attention to cycles, our own cycles, body cycles, et cetera. So yeah, how does that work with perfectionism? Yeah, so I like to talk about it in two ways. One is kind of like a permission slip. So it's like for me, cyclical living, so I work a lot with my menstrual cycle, but you can apply this to any cycle. Yeah, I don't have menstrual cycles as far as I know. It's like the permission to be who I am in any phase of a cycle. So there are times where I am really expressive and energetic and I want to do all of the things. And then there are times where I want to cut up under the duvet, hide and never come out. And cyclical living helps me kind of understand that experience and it gives me permission to have it. It's like, okay, yeah, I'm bleeding or I'm in the winter of a cycle, I'm tired. Of course I want to hide under the duvet. Or no, I mean, the inner summer of a project, of course I feel expressive and this is where I want to be. So that's one way I think about this permission slip. And the other is kind of an instruction manual. So I think a lot of recovering perfectionists are like desperate to be told like, what is the right thing to do? And there is no right way, but I sometimes think about cyclical living as being like my own internal instruction manual. Like when I pay attention to where I am in a cycle, so it doesn't tell me that I have to be a certain way. Like the should is a red flag to watch out for. Or I don't feel how I should feel. It's like, okay, I'm in my summer. So my cycle awareness practice gives me the instruction manual. How do I best support myself? And what are the self-care practices as Red School calls them for this phase of a cycle? So how can I better support myself where I am? And it is like having this little blueprint, especially if you've built up a practice over time, this is something you pay attention to and kind of like develop your own instruction manual. And I love that. Like I just, I feel so much kind of ease in my body. And like, I don't have to figure this out every day. All I need to do is pay attention to what my cycles are telling me and act with that rather than resisting it. Wow. It's so empowering the more we can sense into our cycles. And so this, you know, as being someone who likes to plan, knowing your cycles better and better, I imagine helps you to plan better and better to be able to have a more, I could say predictable because cycles means that there is a returning. There is a pattern. And the patterns as we study them and we kind of zoom out and look at them means that there's some predictability to it, right? I mean, the example of a menstrual cycle, I mean, it's more or less predictable, I guess. And so, so having the understanding of your cycles, does that mean that you can plan better and for the recovering perfectionist, does that mean that there are, I guess, certain days of the month of the week, times of the day, you know, months of the year where we might want to lean more into our work, we might want to be more aware of our rest and be aware of our perfectionism, that kind of thing? Yeah, so, I mean, this will vary for everybody and cycles, I think, are fun because they're fractal. So, you know, there's always cycles within cycles. So how I feel, you know, it's like 10 o'clock in the morning here, midway through the week. So in the beginning of my day, but it's the middle of the week, it's, you know, technically Southern Hemisphere, so it's technically autumn. And like the way that feels compared to, you know, how we had this conversation this time three months ago might have felt quite different because different cycles into planning. So, yes, there can be an element of more predictability, but it's really an awareness practice. It's an invitation to notice how am I in this moment and how can I respond to myself with more grace and ease rather than beating myself up more? But I would say for most recovering perfectionists, autumns, transitions either way are tricky. Like winters and summers are relatively easy because you know where you are, right? So if you think about it with the weather, especially someone like the UK, you know, winter, like it's going to be cold and wet. Summer, it's probably going to be fairly nice. Go to the UK this time of year and you'll need a jumper, an umbrella, sun cream, you know, like you will experience all four seasons in the day. And so transitions can be wobbly, but autumns particularly as the season of completion is the home of the inner critic. And so particularly if you're somebody who doesn't have a good relationship with your inner critic, like I find autumns, autumns is not a good time for me to create. Yeah, that's a spring summer activity. Autumns is about editing, discerning and letting go. Like an inner critic in spring or summer is like a frost. It will come in and it will destroy all of your like seedling ideas because nothing's ever good enough for an inner critic. So yeah, it's worth kind of paying attention to not trying to create at times when your inner critic is running rampant. This is so good, yeah. I love that you've given language to it, you know, the summer, autumn, winter, et cetera. Is that the kind of language you tend to use with clients as well when you're helping them study their own cycles, understand their own professionalism and how they're coping with it? Yes, because there's something intuitive that we even if you haven't grown up somewhere that has this kind of like four seasons model, most people have an intuitive understanding of what that means. And then, yeah, you can apply these sort of inner seasons archetypes to any cycle. Any cycle has a period of getting started, a spring, period of being on, a summer, a period of closing down, autumn, and then a period of being off, which again is a period that most of us kind of skip entirely because we go straight from doing straight back into something else without giving us this, you know, I think you talk about this in joyful productivity, you know, taking the little breaks throughout the day, having a little energy reboot, giving yourself a breath, okay, now what am I moving on to next? What's the next cycle going to store for me? Yeah, really good. And this, like I loved you said earlier, I think one emphasizes the cycles are fractal. And so it's like even in a single hour, you might say that there's a bit of a spring, summer, autumn, winter, right? And it's powerful. And it's kind of think of it that way, that winter is the sort of like, it's letting the land life fallow. And there's actually a lot of growth potential there and that we need to let it rest. But this is really profound. And I think your clients are lucky to be able to work with you in these ways. There's a really rich, I think there's a really rich work and impactful for people. So I would love for you to talk about how you do help people, how do you work with clients, your students, program members, that kind of thing. Of course you've written a book recently, congratulations on that. But yeah, tell us more about your current offerings. Yeah, so right now I'm doing a lot of work. I've got availability for one-to-one work. I'm teaching a lot of authentic relating. So kind of embody practice, help people connect with others and themselves. I've run group programs from time to time. This point is time recording. I'm not entirely sure what the next one is going to be, but there is something emerging around cycles for sure. But what I do is I run monthly free-to-attend workshops touching on lots of topics. So the last one I did was actually on how to be consistent and on a cycles. So people are very welcome to come along to those or jump on the call with me for a bit of free coaching in exchange for telling me about your experience of perfectionism. Yeah, this is awesome. Yeah, thank you for that availability. I will be putting the links below. Some people will be watching this into the future where maybe some of these offerings will have changed, but certainly your website will be below and people can reach out to you there. Just a little bit more on how you enjoy working with clients. So tell me, tell us about like an example of a, you could say ideal client or typical client who might come to you. What kind of project might they be stuck on or perfectionistic about? And what's the general sort of like map or kind of like framework that you work with them on? Yeah, so like on the last situation of one of my group programs, which was called Get It Done, I had people kind of coming, somebody who I felt really stuck with their websites and kind of like wanted to get going on that, somebody else who was stuck writing their book. Somebody else just had this, the kind of the intuitive sense of like, I'm not doing the things that I want to be doing them doing and I don't feel the way I want to feel as I'm doing them. So yeah, it tends to be like either specific things or just this, I think the question on my clients ask is like, surely, surely it could be easier but I don't know how and I'm a bit scared that if it's easier, it won't be as good. That's where a lot of people are at. And so all of my work is based on cycle. So when I do a group program, there is a very clear, like we work with the different seasons in the program. So we build in rest and time for integration. And I take people through like how to connect to their core needs, because I think when you're acting for a place of getting your needs fulfilled, like that's what makes life fulfilling and satisfying. Emergent planning. So kind of like being in this place of, I call it, it comes from Jocelyn K. Gly, I tend to discipline. Like how do you hold the polarity of both needing to get stuff done and being gentle with yourself and what does that look like through emergent planning? And embodying perfectionism, regulating nervous system, we do a lot of inner critic work. And then a lot of work to help people kind of do ending as well, recovering perfectionism, took it over to you as not very good at endings, not very good at everything. So like helping people like bring in things to an end well so that they can rest without the guilt. Right, exactly, that's the key, right? That's awesome. Really grateful to hear these examples and kind of like these tools and these sort of like shifts that you help people through. That's awesome. Well, Vicks, thank you so much for the work you do and for this conversation. I think it was helpful and interesting for me and I think it'll be helpful and interesting for others as well. So yeah, so folks, if you're interested, if you wanna look more into Vicks' content and offerings, look at the links below. So thanks again, Vicks. Thanks, Josh.