 Okay, we're going to start right at the very beginning Daniel when we were preparing for this interview you shared with me a beautiful piece of information You've been with your husband Bruno for 33 years So and I that's absolutely amazing. So what's your secret to having a long-term successful relationship? Well, it's now 34 years It's counting again. So well One Of the secrets is to keep one another to give one another some space to Have other adventures and not stay between the four walls all together all the time So he has this liberty I have mine with well we have grown we were very young when we met one another He was 28 I was 24 And so we are now approaching the sixties and it means that our interests have evolved but Opposite directions, but still we have to give one another the liberty to live our own lives as well and keep the essential in fact At the end of the day, what's important is that we are together And of course at the beginning it was a very sexual Relationship it turned out to be now more like a brother relationship, you know, so We can't always live together, but we can't always live apart too long Without it one another Let's give him some space one thing being tolerant understanding the other in Points of interest of the other person. I think it's one of the secrets Beautiful But you said you came from a lucky family How so I don't come from a lucky family. I'm very lucky to have the family I have Because I'm 59 And it's you can imagine that 45 years ago. I was Well, 48 years ago. I was 11. I was going to church school One of the friends with whom I was going to church school at a gay father Well, and like all the children of our age we were making jokes about the father of this of this girl And suddenly my father came to me and he told me well, he stopped making love at this At this person's name was Raymond So you stop making fun about Raymond because he's my friend. He lives with another man So he doesn't do any arm to anybody. He's just love like anybody else So you start making jokes about my friend Raymond. So that's how it happened. So at the age of 11 45 years ago, my father Told me to be tolerant and to be accepted to to show acceptance So I had no problem. I never came out gay to my parents. Didn't you before me? So it's very progressive for your father in that generation At that time was to consider some Taboo even even here in Belgium Belgium is a very catholic country About 50 years ago. It was a very catholic country and people Do not imagine that two men or two women could live together and love each other. So Well, now with the history. I see that my family was Not just tolerance very open-minded That's how lucky I feel that's my lucky family You told me that your first Positive image of gay life was that village people please tell us a bit about that It took me a long time to come out to myself because the image that I had about the Well, I come from a village in Belgium and the image I had of Being gay was being feminine Cross-dressing and I did not indict if I myself to Disperse and well, I don't have any Reaction is there their choice to dress like women or vice versa, but It wasn't I wasn't feeling I Couldn't identify myself with this kind of image. So what? Village people started I said, wow, can you be gay and wear this kind of clothes and I was completely Madly in love with the the letter man This started my to to give To see my own homosexuality as something positive So it's okay Fantastic How did you first realize that you liked leather fetish tell us about your BDSM journey? Well, the love for leather came when I saw the village people first At one point and then BDSM it was always me and I was Well, even very attracted by insurgencies that you see around Easter with the Christ being whipped This was the best moment I don't like Christmas. I prefer Easter But then okay, well all the scenes where you see some sort of violence It's I found it attractive. Hmm now, okay, you can make the difference between pure violence yeah slavery or torturing and BDSM as we know if something consensual so This is the difference, but the first Keep that I had from from these images come from Now images of the Christianity which is extremely violent. Yes. Yes What emotion does that give you when you see those kinds of images? gives me Well, I want to I would like what I see this I would like to be part of the scene Being on one side or the other can give a receipt. I don't care. So but I would like to be part of the scene so I would like to commit to this kind of acts Excuse me Well, please tell us about the Amsterdam gay leather scene as you knew it you frequent in Amsterdam instead of Brussels What was going on? Why was that? Because what is one when I came out is a as a letter man. I was 23 24 Which is a lot with just 35 years ago and The only Belgium was very conservative country. So the only Gay magazines that we could get were coming from the Netherlands or France, but France was less liberal than the Netherlands. So The magazine that I received from from the Netherlands just showed addresses of gay bars shows addresses of Associations where you could refer to ask questions They had gay switchboards and they could direct you to different places and parties Which did not exist in Belgium First, this is how I decided. Well, I'm gay. I have to assume it But the only the only points of contact that I had were in Amsterdam Okay, and to well, I didn't enjoy too much for too long The letter scene in Amsterdam because at the second time I went there. I met my husband Do you remember which place what's the place on the arm still? Does not exist anymore, and it's called come. It was called a company bar Okay, it was One of these plays on the answer. There were three or four Gay bars they all had back rooms at that time It was the afternoon bar You must have visited Amsterdam at a time when the leather scene was really in full swing Yes, tell us about some of the bars some of the places that you knew at that time Amsterdam was known for the fetish scene more More for the letter scene fetish scene the rubber was not too Too important at that time, but they were about five or six leather bars Of them being closed now. Yeah, yeah, which is a pity, but It seems to be an evolution and but now you can well Amsterdam was the only place where you had a choice bars you could be there and Be in a cafe downtown or April a Long time ago where you could be there in leather in the afternoon You could be in the early evening in certain in certain leather bars, and you can spend the nights in other bars Yeah, okay. Well, you could you could have a 24 hours Going down. Yes in leather bars there and that's about was the only place where you could do that at that time Remember your favorite bars? What was my favorite bar? I like the Argos The Argos was one of them There was a small one for the spiker So the Kirkstraat and this is where my two favorite bars The Argos was the first leather bar to be opened in Europe. Oh I did not know that. Yeah, it was the first one in the late sixties So this was the first Well, when you come to Europe you speak about the Argos everybody knows who which bar it is. Yeah At least the oldest generation I was only able to visit the Argos a few times and it was toward the end of its of its time But yes, it was an amazing bar surely And now talking about the Argos I would like to say something that may not be consensual that maybe That some maybe some people will not appreciate But it's the other responsibility the responsibility of the bar owner To keep it to keep the place as a leather bar. It's also the responsibility of the leather man To go to the bar in leather to keep the leather going Yes, it's not normal when you when you are a leather man You go to a bar to a bar like the Argos are not dressed in leather But you can't play that there is nobody in leather That's the first responsibility You go to the Argos because it's a leather bar You expect to have back rooms where you can At home It's not normal that the owners of the bar at that time put their Boxes in front of the back rooms to prevent people to go into the back rooms So there is the very responsibility somewhere you can't believe it on one side. You can you should Everybody should take it's part of the responsibility for the closing of so many Leather bars in Europe. Yeah, I think you're correct on that The Antwerp Leather scene was better than Brussels. Tell us why Antwerp is a little bit better in that respect I mean Antwerp you have the In fact with the Brussels and Antwerp have Over the years Plates the interest of the people of the gay people and Antwerp has become the fetish reference in Belgium It's not in Europe, but And then Brussels is more for the bear scene. Oh, I see and also for the y'all crowd who likes to party dancing You know Which parties like that they lost in Brussels every month there is But they must and you have the bear scene as well was very developed in Brussels more than in Antwerp So, okay, there is a kind of consensus and You know if you go out for the bears you go in Brussels you go out for the letter. Okay, you prefer to go to Antwerp This is my first visit in Antwerp and I have to say Belgian leather Fetish pride is an amazing event. This is incredible in this gigantic facility with so many people Why has this event become so successful? You have to put it on the excellence organization Well, I think it's in the DNA of the of Yeroun to to be an organizer and so I would say It's always thinking a mile forward It always makes the extra extra mile and You know at different place different events that I've been to have been to many of them one An event is successful. You repeat the same pattern again and again Also There is nothing new being input The year after Here is the same pattern but 80% remains the same 20% changes. So there is always something new to discover here Can you imagine how big it is? But also it's what they have double the space last year. Oh my gosh, okay before that It was just half the space You have more vendors you have larger back rooms you Yes, plenty of new things and different contest happening here like the Mr. Obayuro Mr. Pepe Fetish already called him the superhero. Yes. Yes, it was a missile at their Belgium fascinating I Have to say this is such an admirable Situation I wish we could see Events like this in more places. I have to say Belgium does it right. They really do Excuse me We were in Manchester in October. Yes for Manchester leather pride and I had the privilege of seeing you With a cigarette That someone was holding Literally you cut the cigarette in half How did you acquire that skill first I wanted to cut the cigarette in three So I Let by myself It's a self-stew to self-cution. I bought a video of How to master a whip coming from Australia and And then I saw the How to do it and the first thing I learned about myself and it helped me a lot also in my private life is to focus on something and Focusing on something makes you reach your goal Yes, and then it's the same with whips, you know, you know what you want to Touch and then When you have well, when you know the whip, you know how it moves You know how we wear it in a reach so you can target at something very precisely Yes, but it takes time. I Started to use a whip by Hanging a backpack on the tree and trying to reach the backpack with my whip How many whips do you have I don't found him What's been your most awkward BDSM moment What has been your most awkward BDSM moment the best one I would say I For some when I've been able for the first time Well, I'm usually at top Giving the whip, but I've been able I said somebody who was mastering his whips And I've been able to say okay. It's my time now. So I take off my shirt and the guy Used his boat whips on me and I did it in public because before that it was something that I could do in private But for the first time I could do it in public Well, it takes time to To be able to Manage the pain that you receive with a whip. So it was a challenge for me Is there a BDSM activity that you still want to try But you haven't yet Because I think well, there is nothing that I want to do that is not consensual Okay, no, I think I have my My fantasy has been very square I know what I can do. I know what I want I know what attracts me and I don't want to do anything that wouldn't Go further to what I I Like I like is not just giving pain but giving pain by also kind of personalizing My partner just by being confident It's BDSM. It's not pure set of masochism, right, right? Yeah To go you spoke of some of these newer fetishes that have come into the community One of them being the superheroes and puppies What are your thoughts on? Those sorts of things coming into the community I think there is space for every fetishes Every minority minority has the right to create Their own space where they feel comfortable So these are new fetishes Some of them I don't find attractive because it's not me They have the right to exist but Different fetishes with different organizations There is a respect that should be shown to one another Yes And I don't want to be consensual again. I've seen on many times Puppies coming to leather scenes and trying to disturb Would never go to a draft party to a rubber party in full leather to a puppy event in full leather to Mess it up, right? And so okay, it's a young generation, but they should learn the first thing respect one another. Yes Yes, and this is something that still needs to be acquired by certain sub-communities How do you see them learning that? We try to do it. Well We have conversation with the puppies is such Decompter all events. They're welcome But if someone abuses the situation Yeah It's our role as well to tell them you are going too far. Yes How would you react if we go to your party and try and make fun of your party? That's It's a given take Attitude I guess Tell us about the ECMC What exactly is that for an audience member who may not be familiar? The ECMC was created 45 years ago At a time where in some countries like Norway homosexuality was to be legal so imagine a situation the legal you didn't speak about Two men living together two men kissing in the streets Well, even 20 years ago, you could never imagine The persons of the same sex would get married Enjoy equal rights. Okay in Belgium We celebrated last month 15 years of equal rights. You are very little, you live in a very lucky country Yes, but the ECMC was created at a time where people needed to have contacts Across Europe when we were on tour trying to find Accommodation where they were going on their motorbikes. So at the very beginning the ECMC was the configuration of motorcycle clubs Who's the evolution of our community it evolved to become This motorbike as well and then it evolved to be a more Acceptable is more acceptance for the uniforms for the rubber for the skinheads the original motorbike Aspect seems to have disappeared quite for our many times It's still the ECMC exists because there is a need next to these events which are commercial Sexual there is still a need to have social events People need to get together learn from each other Do something together It was a letterman A handful of letterman who started the Chechia 100 project to raise money for the rainbow railroads to save people in Chechia not Kosovo in Chechia and To bring people in a safe haven We as a leather community we should realize that by staying together Putting our energy together we can save lives true And this project was started with Joking and Ramon's and European title over since being taken over Who do you see? I'm sorry ECMC going in the future Some difficulties over the years we have been hit by the AIDS Epidemic at one time we could get together and find Ways to bring our knowledge together to fight AIDS in all of the communities Influenced by the commercial websites Which also bring us very positive elements like Brecken and Planet Romeo all these kind of websites Also the older clubs are here to have the new communities To be created We are supporting what ECMC supporting Community remote communities From Wales we are supporting Improved on community in these in the south of France We are also Community being developed in St. Petersburg in Russia. Oh, they need our help And that's why we should be here to help them create a role communities there And food the network of knowledge the network of Contacts all around Europe Speaking of the differences of various locations, North America, Europe you mentioned Russia What are the major changes that you see or rather let me let me rephrase that What are the major differences you see in those communities? More continent is very highly populated And so you can be two hours in Berlin. You can be in two hours in In Scandinavia you can be in two hours in Italy One hour to Paris one hour to London an hour and a half to Amsterdam. So What we see in Europe is a very big continent with small distances and the population is Well, I would say And it's some 50% what it is the North in North America. So distance is not a Problem, so you can be at any party whenever you want What do you like it says you have to Cross well, we have to travel across Timelines if you want to go to Chicago New Orleans or to San Francisco. So distance is one of the differences I don't I may be saying something wrong, but I see United States the communities are gathering are organized around People attend a certain place a bar Already event and these are created on one specific place Yes, why didn't you know? These are created by a group of people and we visit different places Also the difference is that if you love We are not familiar raising Why in the United States many many of the clubs many of the organizations are organized Around fundraising for a good cause yes for a person for a community for specific aspects Specific happening in your community. Yes, so it gives A focus for a group of people to get together and to do something together Which is something that still Does not exist too much in Europe Why do you think that? We have that in the United States, but you don't have it here We're the one for a state here in most countries of Europe, you know, so We don't have to well not to care, but we don't have to Have second thoughts about having access to medication when we are here You don't have to have to be concerned when we have to go to hospital Yes, because you know that's all the taxes that you pay Will not be spent to play golf, but it would be spent to care about your health. Yes It is a huge difference between European nations and and United States But we were preparing for this interview You depicted a difference between commercial and non-commercial Let there finish events Yes, talk with us about that. What does that mean a good example here? Let the pride in Antwerp You see it's Financed by all the vendors that come here We didn't give a space for the Non-commercial communities so there is well for the contests All the msc Belgium stand there everything we have this access for free so It means that it's a good thinking of what commercial can do to make The social coming the social aspects of the community develop themselves too, so it's a good synergy between the two Okay Just answer your question. I Think I'm not completely clear Do you see a benefit to one side or the other? It's because it gives to the people The two aspects from the commercial aspect you can buy all the leather and the rubber that they want to They can have the big parties We can go to Social events and other social the bluff social events the bluff dinner Whatever so they can socialize as well Yes Yes, and also well they you can have the fun aspect again Get together with people who think likewise, I think it's everything you need in one space Everything you are looking for And I would say it's very successful thoughts about Titles in the leather community First because I Speak for Europe because Europe gets fine. Most of the contests are organized by non commercial Organizations and members of the CMC or not, but they are non-profit organizations It keeps the opportunity for the local communities It's opportunity to one person to represent the community to be visible for themselves and make this more coming this visible Locally, but also nationally and internationally. Yes, so for me it's Title which is well understood means that it can only provide positive return for your community Unfortunately, we have seen in the past some titles being created for the sake of One person who wants to be Visible true And that they create a title and they give time to themselves and this is deviation Which hopefully this last line but the first positive aspect of this is Showing to the world that your community exists What do you think makes a successful title holder? Person who does not expect the community to serve him Somebody who thinks that by being a title holder is Responsibility to bring something back to the community that he elected him That's whatever it is can be becoming a committee member it can be traveling around the world it can be raising money for a railroads And trying like joking is doing now the strength to renovate And modernize the CMC to prepare it for the next generation So everybody has a stone to bring to the wall like this This is a good understanding of a title order. It should do something That will remain after him saw the devastation caused by aides in the community Talk with us a little bit about that. How did that affect the people here in New York? So that's a political arrived a couple of years after the United States I would say that in Belgium the community that was most affected by the disease Was the African community coming from our ex colonies and it took time for the gay community here in Belgium to be aware that they were a problem They don't work. They don't they first didn't want it to be stigmatized. It's a gay disease. So It delayed the consciousness that they took their awareness that they took about Being your sexual practices are the problem Sexual practices are the problem as long as you don't control them as you don't make them safer So this is a reason why Belgium I can't speak about Belgium was really affected by AIDS The community took Took conscience about what's happening But it took years too long to be aware of this Now the The campaigns for the AIDS prevention are doing a good job Not just on the aspect of AIDS, but all the site Aspects of sexual health Not just AIDS, but also using of chemicals Yes Prevention for all the transmitted diseases. So everything is being taken care of By the same groups because they are all related to one another Was Belgium affected as opposed to the Netherlands as opposed to Germany other nations Compared to the Netherlands. We are always one step backwards We are we are just making some kind of Ben marching benchmarking with the Netherlands, but they They are the best at taking initiatives for the prevention for the health scare and Belgium is always one or two years backwards Still we offer well positioned compared to other countries in Europe So What can I say more? Can you repeat the second I was wondering how Belgium was affected as opposed to The Netherlands or Germany or other nations Well this I well I can compare because I don't have the knowledge of the problems I just can say I've been the president of the club At the early 90s during 19s For about 20 years, and I would say that 80% of the members died of AIDS Wow so well Nowadays there are very few people of that time of that period of time That are still alive. Yeah Because well he took Back to the mid 90s. Well the beginning of the of the years 2000 to find A medication that was Appropriate You became positive later in life in your fifties What are your thoughts on that? First I felt like a stupid asshole because I spent 20 years of my life to Deliver a message of prevention as spent 20 years Using condoms and something wrong happened. It's just well it happened five years ago And at that time you didn't speak about prep Would that helps me to stay negative I would say That's how I understand prep now something that The second condom I call it. Yeah, but it's just my my own opinions is a second condom You can't get rid of the first one, but you can use the second one So the first one always stays clean What future do you see for the leather community here in Belgium there is a future because We are the young generation arriving in the club The people who are over 50 are the minority in our club. Wow, that's great sort of Much I can compare with other clubs in Europe the major where the majority of the members of other clubs in Europe are Over 50 Which is not the case here in Belgium. So there is still an attraction For leather and for other fetishes as well We are specifically leather rubber and uniform club But it still attracts a young generation the president of our club is 42 or 43. Oh, I see. So it's quite young and he attracts people who are younger in himself we have a Members worried in their 20s Which is quite I would swell. I don't want to do To put a hand on that but I would say well, we are one of the very few clubs in Europe to be that lucky I Would agree because we hear that all the time No young people are coming into the community. So I'm very Happy to hear that you're seeing that here in Belgium Yes, and I don't have a recipe to say well, we've did that to a trend of young people. So this is A tip Hint to do it for your own community. No, because it just happens We're just happy that it happened But we don't know why but at the end of the day It's because the commercial scene is very developed in Belgium and at one point people want to have something more than just parties and buying stuffs Want to socialize with people with the same Attraction for leather and don't and they don't have to explain their attraction. They are with people with the same feelings And that's beautiful If you could change any Of your history Why do you change anything? And why I thought about this question so many times What I would do Be the stupid even be more open-minded to other people Views and attraction it took me time and I don't want to hide it to Accept the fact that women are also part of our community true It's by going to the United States for IML in 2005 But I realized that women played an important role in our community Maybe not in Europe, but in the United States women were there to take care of their brothers when they became sick That's right. So that's one point. It's shocked me about myself But I was Yes, I was some kind of Misogenic you say that in this misogynistic misogynistic At one point but by having contacts with other communities I changed my mind for me now women are an important part of my life An important part of our community and I will defend it That's beautiful to hear That's the biggest misconception about you One of the misconceptions I think that I spend my time. I spend my money. I travel all around the world To be visible for myself But I want to be in the spotlight all the time In fact by doing but by traveling all around the world making contacts with people Inviting people being invited. I created a network and I want everyone to benefit from the from the contacts that I have I'll die now all my contacts will be lost. So it will be useless People think that I'm doing it to be visible. Okay, it's the reward of doing this work Okay That's not the goal of all my traveling and my involvement in the community Thank you Daniel Dumont. Thank you very much for an absolutely wonderful interview. Thank you