 The House of Representatives is considering making a president, vice president, governor and deputy governor lose their seat if they defect from the political party on whose platform they were elected to another. A bill proposing this was sponsored by Rimande Quirum. He is of the People's Democratic Party in Terrapa state. The bill, which is a waiting second reading by the House 6 to amend section 144 subsection 1 and section 189 subsection 1 of the 1999 constitution as amended to check the incidents of abandoning the political party that sponsored the president, the vice president, the governor or deputy governor for another political party. Well, joining us to discuss this is John Gol Lebo. He is a former speaker of the Cross River State House of Assembly and Barista Obinachuku. Thank you very much for joining us gentlemen. Thank you for having me. I'm going to start with you John Gol because obviously you have been a legislator, so you would understand where this is all coming from. But then the constitution only, you know, prescribes this for the National Assembly and, you know, but then I'm considering this has always been in the constitution and we have seen a lot of cross-captaining defections every now and again and I mean ever since we started this issue of political parties under this new dispensation of democracy. Is it necessarily about the law that is in place or about the making sure that this law works? It's about enforcing it. I'm wondering if we now extend it to the president or governors and deputy governors, will it still not be just one law that is there in the constitution that will or never will be, you know, enforced? Well, I think that the issue of defection and not defection from one political party to the other, it's something that you can categorize under two foundations. First, morality and then on the other issue on constitutionality. Morality is that you expect that it's a moral obligation on anyone who is elected as... I think that John Gaule is frozen, but let's go to Barry Stalbina if we can get him. Barry Stalbina is a lawyer. Okay, John Gaule, are you back? Can we hear you now? Yes. We lost you for a second. Go ahead. So you're talking about the basis of constitutionality or morality? Yes. Now, you expect that on the moral authority that someone who is elected on the basis of a political party should be able to exercise his mandate and meet with the political party. But under the constitutional provision, you discover that Section 68, Sub-1 G and Section 109, Sub-1 G as well of the 1999 constitution actually have dealt with the issue of the constitutional implication of defecting from one party to another for legislators alone. That means for a senator has over 70 members, but there's no such provision for governors and the president or the vice president, which is the issue now. Now, if you check at the provision of Section 68, Sub-1 G, Section 109, Sub-1 G, as he affects the has over 70, several houses over 70, the clear seats of has over 70 members, a vacant for the defected. As a speaker, I declare the seat vacant of an MP3 member who moved from PDP to MP3 because the only provision provides wonder which you can defect is that there's a crisis in the national data of your party that can happen. So we declare the seat vacant. Now, you can't do that for the governors unless you try to look at them. Maybe a judicial precedence, for example, you try to invoke the case of Faleke against INEC or the case of Amity against INEC or the case of Guni against Fedeko and Guni, but outside that you don't have such provisions. So I think there's a need for a constitutional amendment to cover the provision that relates to the governor specifically because we're talking about express provision of the law, specifying the implication. There's none for the president, the vice-president, and then the governors. But there is a provision we can take up to the level of the Supreme Court for all legislators. Let me come to you Bar Sabina. Just as I asked him, why has this become so important or expedient? You know that in Nigeria there's a saying that when all politicians seem to be in one voice, then there is an underlying target or an underlying reason. But from a constitutional perspective, if these laws have been there and just we see once in a while where seats are being declared vacant, these laws have not necessarily been enforced to the letter, what are we expecting if the, you know, finally the National Assembly decides to go on with this of the presidency and the vice-president and governors? I mean, what difference does it make? Okay. First, the constitution, like he said, provides for the condition under which the members of the National Assembly can defect to one political, can defect to another political party other than the political party that brought them to office. But there is none strictly speaking for the executive. That's executive in this instance will mean the president, the vice-president, governors, the governor and the deputy. But to me, I will say that even the bill, the so-called bill, it is not far-reaching. It is not far-reaching. Even the section that provides the, the section that provides the condition under which the National Assembly members can defect to another political party. It is still not, in fact, to me it is a sham. It is a sham because looking at it, looking at it from the point of view that it is only the people that elect those office holders, then when the people finally voted for a political party and by extension electing the, the, the officer, then the officer gets to the National Assembly or gets to, get to become the governor of the state and all of a sudden before you know it, it defect to another political party. I will say that that is a way, a way of ensuring that the will of the people does not count. Because people can gang up and say, okay, let us, of course, it has happened in able state before, where the political party decided to allow another political party other than to contest selection and win. Immediately after winning, the same, the person defects back to another political party. I am thinking, in my view, even what the National Assembly is trying to do regarding the executive, it is not far-reaching. That is not the way to grow democracy. If we must grow democracy, we must ensure that as soon as you are elected under one political party, under no guise shall you, shall a defection to another political party be allowed. That is the only way to grow democracy. I can tell you. Isn't that what this is? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, educate us. Isn't that what this is trying to do? Isn't this what is targeting? That's not it. What this is still, this is formulated, still looking at the, the one section 68 of the constitution that provides for the condition under which a senator or under which a House of Red member can defect to another political party. Amongst the condition is that where there are fraction in the political party. For goodness sake, two politicians or three or more can decide to create fraction in the political party. And under that guise, they will all jump ship and jump to another political party. That is not the way to grow democracy. Intention or the tenement of the drafters of the constitution that endow the national assembly or the legislator the power to make laws. The anticipation is that once they come, the legislator comes into office. They will be able to make law that will strengthen democracy. What we have had from 1990 now, at best can be described as a shock because it has never grown democracy. Even the new deal will not still grow democracy because the new deal is fashion after the wood up of the national assembly. Do you know what it means when a particular political party has a majority in the national assembly? They are supposed to produce the speaker. They are supposed to produce the senior president. All of a sudden, some of the members of that political party jump to another political party and automatically the will of Nigerians that wanted a national assembly headed by a particular political party is truncated under the guise that there is fraction or fraction in the political party. That's nothing. Even the new deal, the so-called bill that people are rejoicing and applauding will not still take us to the promised land. The national assembly must think even with the so-called constitution of political party because what we have in Nigeria is that the way the law is structured, the way the law allows the political party to do whatever they like and get away with it. The political party in Nigeria can chill and get away with it. The national assembly must think. Okay, Vaisalbina, because we're almost out of time, back to you, John Goll, just quickly. Just quickly, John Goll, political parties, now he's saying that this is more like a get out of jail card for politicians who are Nigerian politicians. Yes, Vaisalbina, just hold on. He's saying that this is a get out of jail card for every politician in Nigeria, which is a normal thing for politicians to crisscross. But shouldn't political parties themselves put it in their constitution to make it a sit tight thing? So either you choose to be in this party or you stay in the other party but just know that you can't cross over to one divide. But I guess this boils down to the issue of ideology. Are we ever going to get that or achieve that in this country in closing? I'm sorry, Vaisalbina, this question is for John Goll. I think that first of all, we are already caught up in a situation of what you call like a constitutional mafia. So one, because first you're talking about the governor, you're talking about the members of the national assembly. Was the governor and the members of the national assembly come together and be elected by one political party? And the governor is? Oh, I think we lost John Goll there. Unfortunately, our connections are bad, but we want to thank you, John Goll. There was a former Speaker of the Cross-U.S. State House of Assembly, Vaisalbina, is a legal practitioner, but we have to wrap it up here, unfortunately. But quickly, let's take a break and look at what people were saying about the situation in Nigeria. Then when we come back, I'll quickly give you my take. No, no, no, no. I don't think so. I think the majorly, it is called cross-capeting, but when you cross-capet, you don't need to be removed from office. So your office is still with you. You just change party. You are still the elected governor. So you are still the elected official as well. So you don't need to be removed. They should. That means they are not faithful to their party and they are not faithful to those people that elected them. But if you were actually elected to a position by a party, and that's where the masses saw you and voted for you, and suddenly you are moving, you are not moving for, based on the interests of the masses against your own interests. So they should. They are one of the things that are corrupting the country. You know, they're not supposed to be, for example, I'm in a PC now. I see that it's a game. Anyway, because it makes us to understand that they are not going there to do something. They are going there to look for money. It depends on the people. If the people, for instance, will, we have all it takes to go to the polls and have such people removed. And that is if they are unable to perform initially. Suppose I'm in a PC and I'm able to perform. Unfortunately, I have the means of defecting. Well, for one reason or another, I defected. And I believe I will stay perform even if I go to PDP. So they are nothing but a bad bet. Invariably, if it is an environment that things works as you suppose. If you're in a party, you're supposed to remain in that party for continuity and also to stabilize the party and make the party effective. Here's my take. Now it's refreshing to see that the purpose is being used not just for preaching, but for education, social awareness and the revival of sorts to mount pressure on Nigerian leaders to get the job handed to them done properly. It's not enough, by the way, to seek for spiritual uprightness, paying off tights and offering and showing up to places of worship. I mean, and that happens when people empty out of, I mean, the question is what happens when we all leave church, we empty out of churches. What do we go? What do we do? When we return to society, who are the bribe takers? Those who circumvent the system, those who cut corners, the looters, the corrupt politicians, who are they? They all sit in the pews of a church or are they sitting in a mosque? If our religious leader go beyond preaching and start educating their followers on social responsibilities and other things, and why it's important to get involved in our political processes, I guess life will be a bit better and will be better for it as a people. So it's time to start asking the tough questions, demand answers, pastors, don't just say you are blessed, you will have 100 million next week. Start teaching your people social responsibility, and let them know why they should get their voters card and why they should belong to political parties. Yes, it is also as important as reading their Bible. There is no more time for passiveness. I am Marianne Corn, thanking you for joining us on the show tonight. Have a good evening.