 You're alive. Hello, hello everyone. Today we're going to talk about directing with this amazing director. This is ever not chicken. He is coming to us from Ashland, Oregon, where he is at Oregon Shakespeare Festival. I know everyone as an incredible director of plays, primarily from his work in the Bay Area, but he has worked all over the country. You are a theater creator of all things, and I'm so grateful that you're going to spend some time talking to us about what you do and how you do it and how directors and playwrights work together. And yeah, how's it going? Hello, Lauren. So good to see your face. Yeah, I'm excited to be here. I can, you know, talk about new plays, playwrights directors all day every day. So it's sort of very central to my passion and what I do and how I do it. So this is exciting. Yeah, thanks. Well, a little bit about kind of why we're doing this. I started teaching these classes or offering these chances to talk about playwriting, but it occurred to me that's such that is one corner of the pie that makes a new play. And it is such a collaborative field as we know that it felt strange to not talk about directors specifically from a director who like you has such a great and rich career with new work. And I think it would be, why don't we just start at the beginning of how you came to be a director, how you specifically came to be a director of new work and kind of yeah, what was that journey for you? Of course. Yeah, I mean, I've been doing theater my whole life basically I've, my whole family are engineers and math people including myself I studied computer science and engineering in college. And, but like theater was just what I did I was a hammy kid so from like age four. I was doing school plays other, you know, kid parts and some other professionally things in Turkey where I grew up. And when I went to the school that was theater program was part of the ESL program English as a second language. So really what's so weird is most of my theater career has been in English although I was born raised in Turkey. And there I was a good enough actor, I will say like I was fine. But it became pretty clear pretty early that there were other people who were just much better at it than me. And part of it I realized now was actors need to have this like very narrow focus to be the really good ones have a sense of everything that's happening but they're like looking ahead of them so like you know like they're sort of looking here. And I was just like, it's like light sound just paying attention to all the wrong things. And it was my directing the theater teacher in high school senior year was like, I think you're a director direct this play. And I did and it was good like I was like okay. And then in college I started doing it more and realize pretty quickly that like directing in rehearsal was the perfect place for me like that that's when I was like, Oh, like I'm a designer I'm a organized engineering mind and I've acted and I'm a story person. It all kind of came together so that's where I sort of clicked fully into my director self. What brought me into the theater was the classics I mean I did a lot of more year I loved the Shakespeare was a huge part of my English learning. I love the Greeks, I love Lorca, I love love love, you know, I say Williams, I absolutely adore. So that's sort of what I thought I was going to be doing and then I moved to San Francisco for an ex, and San Francisco at that time, especially was a new place town. So the work that was available was in new place I sort of entered it as a like well this is the job that's I can get. Because I was pretty good at it. And that was like an interesting realization of, I really do love collaboration. I think that's sort of the thing that I love and having another brain in the room that owns a certain part of the process and that we can both wrestle with it together that is the other partner that I wrestle with not everything has to come up to me to solve in a way. It really got exciting. And then the thing that really clicked it in for me was Golden Threat Productions which is countries first theater company devoted to the Middle East and I was on staff and a resident artist with them, and I still am a resident artist with them for about 15 years, all of a sudden, there was sort of a mission driven aspect to the developing the new stories with playwrights, because those stories were, let's be honest, like purposefully excluded from the mainstream, and having that space to be able to engage with my identity, and to like put forth stories that had never been allowed to be told in this way before. That got really exciting so it sort of started hitting my social justice activism side of my personality which is such a big part of the why of theater for me, and getting those two things together I think is what really clicked it, where I was like, Oh, I do love being a new play director. Because I mean, collaboration, theater is collaborative, if you're doing Shakespeare, and then to add such an immediate urgent collaboration of a new play, which as we've worked together, they're changing constantly. There are big ideas every day brings a big idea. Some of those big ideas are like, Oh, that's a blocking change. Let's fix that. And some are like, Oh, that's a first act. Let's rewrite the whole thing change. Which you don't usually get that with Shakespeare. Yeah, how do you describe the difference of working in, let's just a play where the script where the play isn't changing, at least because of the playwright and and a new play I mean I know there's a ton of them but how do you kind of what parts of your brain work or how does it is it the same just more or I mean, it's kind of funny. One of the reasons why I think that kind of process we had right like the really crazy place totally not written when you like start the process and then by opening you have a play a version of the play that like feels like a complete play right that that is super exciting but it requires me to be It's not just flexible but you have to set up all the parameters around the collaborative process to be able to move at any given moment that is most obviously in place for design. Right. I'm an essentialist director I usually love sort of like what can I remove from the stage so that there is just one central metaphor that I'm looking at. And that is sort of my artistic impulse anyways, and with a new play I usually am more often than not looking for a playground. So I'm not looking for like, perfectly, you know, like rotating set so it only can go one direction or you know like those really set ways in which we can and can be super lovely and impressive to watch. I really stay away from those it's usually like here's a metaphor, you know, here's the context, the thing that holds the space together and then I have a bunch of stuff in the space that I can move with actors I could so that I can respond to anything so if you bring me a totally reordered act one. A week before tech. I can just restate that right like I don't have to like talk to a million people about how the set now needs to move this way and the lights need to move. You know so. And I can't tell to be honest. For a long time I thought this essential aesthetic for me was because I had no money to work with because I was working in small theaters and I was doing a ton of new place so there had to be a lot of flexibility. And now that I get to play with a bit more money for making theater and also I'm not necessarily always doing new plays. I still do the same thing. So it's just I can't tell which came first like it's just who I am and then it just happened to fit into the new play process or I just did so many small theater new plays that it's just who I became. It's hard to say, but that's sort of the ways in which I think about it the collaboratively what I find is, it's kind of an interesting thing. I have sort of interesting thoughts about American playwriting, where where it's become such a scarce scarcity model and it was basically like playwrights were doormats for a long time, right like it was just like, you can just ignore what they did and just make a play right it and then in response to that we've like all of the funding almost in the theater like a lot of funding goes to playwrights now they're sort of new plays and world premieres are really lifted and beloved and both funding wise and otherwise producing but that has sort of within the scarcity model, especially a theater in general it's made it so that American playwrights can become really obsessive and precious about the world premiere text, right or what they intended, right so it can be very like, this is what I wrote. Right, rather than entering a collaboration as what do you see here. Right, and then of course it's their words like I'm not, you know, right, but like that there is a sort of I'm finding myself I'm finding myself recently like I'm thinking of mono monster the relationship we had with you and Gita for healer I'm like I would say Raphizade I'm thinking of many many G Sanchoy that I just developed a play with that player as foundation. I like writers who take you as a generative artist as well and take me and the idea that like, I will show you what I like as a director, different brain, right, I will show you what I'm seeing I will move some things around in collaboration with you, and then you can say no that's not at all. That's what I would like, right, but it's allowing for that. Give and take is something that I'm really looking for now like as I choose collaborators. And this is not to say that's the only way a playwright should work. I just think this is more speaking to finding the right person for the right. Right, like, that's what I'm like, that's when I do my best directing. So if you're not a playwright who enjoys that kind of interaction. There are a million other directors you know, like so I think that's sort of a lot of what I'm thinking about these days as I consider building relationships with playwrights and I'm also really interested in like long term relationships with playwrights now that it's not like I'm hired to do the world premiere and I just come in and do it but that like what if I'm signed on and this happened a couple of times with Mona. Mona Mansour where I was brought on as the director before she wrote the play. Right, so I was there from like here's 10 horrible pages I just wrote can you read it to like what the fuck is the ending right so it's just I'm finding myself a lot more drawn to those kind of processes, and I think it's just where I am generatively as a director. I mean similarly it took me a long time to realize that those relationships are the ones that are going to generate the all the other things the like the Canon the thing that you're creating as an artist. I mean I, it took me a while to realize that what I needed to be finding was was directors that got me that got how I work that got my sense of humor that had the short hand that got the like oh yeah Lauren writes for everything to go fast until it's not okay so we like all of the stuff about and the why as you saying the why of theater, finding people's why is that agree with your why. I want to make something that engages the heart that doesn't put the conflict off stage that that really brings the catharsis to the middle of the stage and I wanted to be political and I want to talk about culture and I want to talk about identity and you know finding the collaborations is I mean it's the name of the game and anything but I think in an earlier part of your career, not your mind all of ours, we are more likely to kind of just say yes sure anything yes what can I do to get a job what can I do to get this thing. And then as you get further on you're able to go what am I what do I do to find the people that make the best art my best art my best self. And it's just so interesting though it's I totally hear you where, especially in the early part of the career you're just like yes sure okay you want me to stand upside down and have 10 hula hoops and you know include Shakespeare okay fine Elizabethan dress whatever you want I just need the job right. And then you sort of. I wish there was a way to learn without like messing up so much right like you sort of almost have to say yes and it needs to be like a glorious failure. And then you're like, Oh, never do that again. But I really hear you on. The thing for me is, I'm drawn to what I'm drawn to, and it's really been interesting because I carry the producer director hats right, and it's always really funny for me how like I'll read a play and I was like, man I want to produce that play, and I know the director for it versus like this is my fucking play and no director can touch you know what I mean like that that instinct is really interesting and I feel very lucky that I have those two hats that really for me work very well together. Because there are writers that I adore that I'm not the right director for you know what I mean because I just don't get it. And there's something about I think you talked about rhythm. That's really for me what it is. And a tonal thing because I'm just what I'm interested in and some of this is cultural and some of this is who I am is like you know that like, is it a tragedy is it a comedy. Right like you're like crying and then all of a sudden you're laughing and then you're crying again what what happened right like that's that's where I am most comfortable. That's what comes to me really naturally and almost like when plays like cry cry cry. I don't understand it like I deeply do not understand it, not to say those plays aren't good. They're just not for me. Right. So I'm always looking for those things of like I get this play. I know what this play is. Right, like I can direct this play, even if it's unfinished even if I have no idea what I'm going to do with it. Like there's something about this play that is inside of me and it's just like our rhythms are in sync. And yeah, and for me like you that's fast fast fast fast fast fast fast feel feels. exactly. But it's actually kind of funny because I remember even for our collaboration, like the rhythm was really easy. I found like, I clearly got you and Gita's and Gita has a beautiful sort of off kilter humor. And like, like, I want to say clown, but it's not that doesn't fully capture it. But it's also like everything is just like weird, like everything is twisted in a very intelligent, smart way. And that's also sort of where I live. So I was sort of a good match for both of you. But I remember like, I had a lot of hard time, I had a very hard time finding your ending for that play, like in the performance. And I like tortured myself for it. And it was actually a very simple ending. Because I think you're usually like your endings, you're very committed to like, delivering it, right? Like it like goes all sorts of places. And then it comes together. And it's just like not what I do. Or like, at all, I'm usually like, I'm not finishing it. Fuck you, audience. You deal with that, right? And I remember I was like, trying to find this ending. And then we found it, it was a very simple solution, which was literally exactly what you wrote. Like once I actually did what you wrote, it worked. And I remember being like, Oh, wow, this is so interesting. And every other collaborator was like, yeah, that is what it's been from the beginning. I don't know why this was like, it was such a difficult play. And all the insanity, I was like, I can figure this out, I can do this. And the really simple, very like, well made Lauren Gunderson ending, you know, really beautiful ending. I was like, I don't know what's happening in this scene, which was funny. But like, those are the kind of things that really excite me, right? Like that that that that kind of dissonance sometimes how you can have as a director and a playwright together. It's fantastic. Like that's so fun. That is an interesting, weird thing to live through. And like, you know, the next time I do one of your plays, and it's not, I'm not going to say like you do the same thing every single time because you clearly fucking don't. But like, it'll be easier. Right? Like, I will know that that's something that's inside of your creative juice. So I can. Yeah, well, but that's the whole thing. Oh, and I as as most people know, the cat will join us. My dog is sleeping right there. Perfect. Yes. So there is something that I do think that is like the lesson again, thinking about there's a lot of folks who are watching this are students of directing, writing, or our writers who are kind of discovering that they're writers or perhaps watching this, you're discovering, oh, wait, no, I'm a director. I'd be fun to the dark side. There we go. So with that kind of perspective, thinking about what without being like, what advice would you give to a young director? But what advice would you give? What are the, what are the kind of the building blocks that you feel like you can generate on your own that like first job when you got to San Francisco, how did you do it? How did you? How did you get there? How did you? Yeah, what's the practical kind of? How do you talk to an artistic director? Do you pitch a play? Do you do what is all depends, you know, it's just so funny. My career path was really interesting because I was an immigrant with no sort of financial safety net. So the the sort of assisting path which a lot of directors take was not possible for me. I had to have a full time day job, right? Like that just so I couldn't assist at ACT for no money. Yeah, right. That just was not possible. Now there's a lot more conversation about internships and assistantships, having some sort of finance like, you know, salary attached salary might be too fine. Fancy a word for one stipend. There you go. Thank you. That's the word. But at the time, you know, back in the day 15 years ago, there wasn't it was just all free. So I sort of had to cobble together my career, which was a combination of saying yes to a bunch of stuff so I could be around, right? Like running lights, running sound, painting the set, you know, like whatever. And I worked in a lot of smaller theaters because they were rehearsing in the evenings. And you did some marketing too, isn't that right? Yeah, I mean, that was my day job was marketing. And I was lucky enough that my day job sort of put me in side a theater. Right. And for a long time, for about 10 years, that was fantastic. And then I had to get out of the theater for day job because people couldn't people have a really weird time in the theater where like, however they meet you, that's the only thing you can be. So if people were meeting me at the magic or at ACT as a marketing person, they couldn't understand that I was also an artist. So I had to sort of do a big shift around 10 years into my career to be like, I don't do that for theater anymore. So that I only meet you as a director, I even had to do that I was a set designer director. And I actually had to like hide the set design credits from my resume, because people were like, it was just hard for people for a while. Maybe the slashes are a little easier now. I mean, I'm certainly more interested as a producer, as a person who hires people in folks who have multiple skills, you know, that I think is just interesting. In terms of the advice, like, I personally believe in doing it. I'm a terrible assistant. I don't actually learn a great deal in class. Unless it's a practical class. So I learned who I was by just doing it, putting up a bunch of plays with my friends and bars and art galleries and look, you know, golden thread was a huge thing for me because they had this sort of mission that helped made me important to them in a certain way. So I was given opportunities by them before sometimes I was ready for them. You know, my very first real true directing it came because I was at the magic as a marketing associate at the time. And our education person had gotten a teaching gig. So I had to drop a show. And it was two weeks before rehearsal started. And she was like, Oh, God, I have to drop this show. And I don't know who can direct it. And I was like, Me? So there is certainly like a being in the right place at the right time. And convincing people that you're competent. Because the hardest thing with directing is you don't have auditions and you don't have a manuscript you can give to someone who proves to you that you're good, they need to sort of believe that you're good. Yeah, you have to do it. You have to do it or you have to in a coffee, convince them that you can run a room. You know, and that's very challenging. I come across competent. I found early, you know, to me like when I talk about what I do people believe me, which is nice, even when I was younger. But, you know, that was a big thing, like just figuring out that coffee conversation is really weird. Coffee you mean sitting down with an artistic director or no kind of ever play, right? You know, this is who I am. And I love your play because of this thing. And, you know, these are the plays I'm interested in. In terms of the artistic director pitch sessions, it's so hard because each artistic director is totally different. Some people are already have their plays and are looking for a director. Some people are just trying to meet you and you won't even work for them for five years. But it's just a meeting. And some people are like, what do you have? And then you need to have the like, the thing I would say, the two things I would say about that is one, it's people relationships. So if you're not building a personal relationship in a pitch session, you're failing, right? Like you it's actually about meeting the person. And they're actually if you think about it, a producer who's meeting a director is like, figuring out if they want you in their house for two months, where you're going to be in charge. Yeah, it's their house. Right? So you're you really have to like, like each other, trust each other. That pitch session is as much a audition of them for you. That's right. I mean, it doesn't feel that way because they're the decision maker. But like, do you want to be in that house? It's not it's like we're we're going to be co parenting. If you're a director, like do you want it? Are you going to like it's going to be tech? And we're going to hate each other? Like, do I? This is great. This is so lovely, Lauren, but like in three weeks, when you're whatever, although you're never late for your rewrite, but like, you know, when you're like a week late for your rewrite, and I have two days to tech, am I going to still like you? Like, you know, can we still work? You know, you sort of have to suss that out. You know, so in that way, it's a complicated thing. And I never quite know how to answer the like, how do you build a career? How do you get that first job thing? The only other thing I would advise and I had to learn this the hard way is don't pretend, right? There's a sort of weird American idea of like, fake it till you make it, right? And I wouldn't recommend it because they can tell like usually making it like I'm pretending like you know how to do things you actually do. I see. Sure. You know what I mean? Like, I sound like I've never done this before, but I'm like, here's here's how I think I would do it like that. And here are the ways in which my past experience has prepared me to do it. Right. That's great. That's great advice. Yeah. I mean, that's how I that's worked for me. You know what I mean? Because I find that every time I've pretended to be better, more experienced, more whatever than I am, I don't get the job. Yeah. I mean, and maybe I'm just bad at pretending. Maybe there are other people who are better at pretending and they can. But I found that that just doesn't work for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let's think about perhaps it's your relationship with Mona or what are the things that you would encourage directors of new work to do before the first workshop? Like, what are conversations you would say you've got to have this conversation with your playwright or how do you prepare for that workshop to kind of again, trying to investigate and interrogate this collaborative nature. And some directors are like, you learn, you collaborate really when you're in the space. And some are, I feel like the ones that I flock to and the ones that I've had most success with are kind of dramaturgically minded, like we're having conversations about the script way before. Yeah, way before as and with a dramaturg. And so how do you what are your kind of like the, you know, first couple steps when you at the beginning of this new play process? I am really interested in the why, like, why are you writing this play in your mind? You know what I mean? That might not be what's on the page. Like that's, you know, beside the point. But like, the point of inspiration, what's the first thing you wrote? If I'm not there, you know, what was the first scene you wrote? And it's a combination of things, depends on when you come into the process. With new plays, I'm like always torn. And I really follow the writer, right? Like, Mona is a great example of someone who does a shit ton of research and has read book after book after book after book before she writes almost, right? Like it just kind of and then it just simmers and then something comes out. And I am careful to not to to figure out which one of those million things she read, I should read. Yeah, because there's something great about knowing the original source of whatever that inspiration is. But also there's some great value on not knowing that so that I can actually reflect back what she's written. That's so smart, yeah. You know what I mean? So I am, if you both know the same things, you are seeing the same things and you don't. Exactly. Like, insider, outsider, which is I think a new play director's role very much is always like you want to be inside the play and you also want to be the person that's outside the play a little bit and holding the audience perspective. Oh yeah, does that make sense? You know, like what is actually happening in this scene? Yeah. Like I think this is what's happening in that scene. Is that what you want? Yeah. And it's also, I do this with actors too. Like I always say this, I'm a statement director. I make a lot of statements in the rehearsal room and I think that's true for my playwright collaborations too. There are other directors and especially dramaturgs who are so good at asking questions. Like not leading real questions that spark real things. I'm not that person and every time I ask a question it, I'm always worried it comes in condescending or leading rather than like, so I ask questions but that's when I'm like I don't understand this question. So I will usually, even with actors go, what I saw was this. Like I will try to name the thing that is in my mind happening in the room and then we can have a conversation from there. And the thing that works, and this is very much cultural, having been born and raised in Turkey, my assumption is that if I make a statement, strong statement, you will tell me you don't agree. And we will have a passionate, hence moving conversation about the thing and then we'll come to an agreement or at least an interesting non- agreement. Right? And that can be, I have to be really careful about that and how I do it and especially because now like I'm a tall, white enough passing man with now graying hair, you know, and now with an impressive position at a major theater company. So I'm very aware of the fact that when I make a statement in a room it comes with a certain kind of weight that is not intended in my delivery, right? So I actually have to, I mean I'm sure I've done it here, like I do, does that make sense? Am I making sense? Like I purposefully undercut my statements so that people know that I'm welcoming their opinion and that like this statement was made to provoke a conversation not as God's word, you know, in the room which as a director you have to be careful, you do carry a certain kind of power in the room especially with younger playwrights or something. You know what I mean? Someone who has less experience. But I think that even this self-analysis to be able to to be able to articulate how you communicate is invaluable, especially to a new relationship. Certainly for directors and playwrights working on a premiere, the idea of if we haven't worked together, any clue of how you actually say what you mean, how you actually have the conversation is great because it is different and certainly earlier in my career I didn't, the way I was communicating and the way I was being communicated to weren't successful and what kind of didn't know until it was like opening night you're like, oh I need to yell at you a little bit more. I see you were only listening when I was mad or whatever, you know. I avoid those relationships but yeah I totally hear you. Yeah, you know it's a, you know what's really interesting? I'm not a, I mean as I like just talked about how I communicate, I'm also not a, this is how I work director either, especially and I think that's really important if you're a new plays director, right, you need to have a flexible enough process that you can work with different kinds of writers because writers, I mean actually that's not true, like you're a very social writer who, I think writers who come out of acting are at their own specific breed, sometimes I feel like they know how to be in a rehearsal room, they know how to speak to an actor in a way that actually pushes them forward and then there are writers that like should never speak to actors, you know what I mean, because they just like, yeah no it's just like it's not helpful because they're not, what they're looking at when they're looking at the scene is so separate from what the actor is looking at, I do have to play the mediator between the two and there are certain writers, you know, Francis Yau Chukauhig was a great example of this and I loved collaborating with her, she didn't want to have the attention on her in the rehearsal room, she wanted to as invisibly as possible observe and then in very specific moments insert herself but then again like she didn't want to be in the room in the same way, she didn't feel comfortable with that and that's personality, artistic choice, whatever it is but and I was able to do that with her and then in a way she was seeing things in ways I couldn't because I was so in the middle of it and she was just like this brilliant collaborator of like reflecting back to me what I was doing in really beautiful generous ways for a very personal play for her that we were working on, so you have to have different ways you make space in the room and you communicate in the room so that everyone is doing their best work right, like that's in my mind the director's role is like you hold the space so everyone can succeed including yourself but you know it's interesting in the sense that I do better when the writer is forthcoming I will say that, I like it when a writer says no or like says I'm not interested in that, you know what I mean sometimes Bay Area especially I find and in the American theater there's this sort of fear of conflict, like this like oh god if if I say I don't like what this person is doing then I will never work with them again, like whatever, like if the conversation is about the work and not me, it's what I'm doing, who I am right, I would rather know I don't like it I'm happy to say it but oftentimes I don't quite know what's not quite right, you know, but this is not working, is helpful, yes that's right too, yes, like don't pretend like it's working and then be mad later, especially on a production because that clock is ticking, we gotta figure it out the floor opening yeah but it's also it's kind of funny that I'm like completely going around in circles a little bit on the flip side and as a director you have an interesting internal clock to this and some writers do too that like that's going to work in a week yes right right please don't rewrite that scene yeah no no no right and I've had to do that with a lot of writers because they're like oh my god this is terrible I'm like yes it is because the actors don't know anything yet yes right and it will be okay, like it will be okay without me saying anything and this is also where the longer term relationship is the first time you've worked with a director then you don't know if it's just going to suck forever or if you're like no it's going to suck for now and then it's a process you know I trust him if he's not worried I'm not worried but it's also like you know like you all have to know like the third week run through is going to suck oh yeah right like and in a way I wonder if this is some part of the communication I try to be especially when writers come in and out of the process which is a lot of times what ends up happening you know which works really well actually like a writer in the room every day is I would assume torturous for the writer while we're like just often yes like doing horrible things to your play until we figure out what it is you know why would you want to sit through that in a way yes but at the same time when they're coming back I think making that time before they are in the room to tell them where I think we are oh that's really helpful I like that idea right like hey Lauren this actor is a mess right now I know he knows oh that's great to know I'll watch this run through that like you know to me like we don't know what's happening and if you have any ideas after you see it as to where we're off like that'll be super helpful great yes but like this scene I don't understand so I really want you to and I think it might be a writing thing but I don't know can you look at that scene really carefully like whatever that is really setting really helpful because it's just now that I write to actually I know how overwhelming it is when you're putting something in front of people yeah so unless somebody helps you like go pay attention to this you're just it's easy to be like I don't know what's wrong it's all wrong yeah when it broke my husband always jokes that like the right after tech is when I'm like nope it's over no one should see this play just cancel a cancel opening don't don't do anything yeah exactly every single play you say that I'm like nope it's real this time it's real it's real this time yeah I have a similar my husband this was like is it helpful when I remind you that this is what you do I'm like no no because I like I always do that I was like no no no this one is the true bad one I will never work again this time he's like you say that literally every play the true bad one like this is there's this is unsavable and it's like no I think it's four days before tech it's four days before tech come on I know no no you don't understand yes I think that openness is is a great idea and I do want to talk about your writing as well I will say one thing that I learned earlier in my career was to have the conversation with the director as early as possible about what any number of ways to describe the same moment which is what is the point of the play what is the climactic moment what is the gesture that we're waiting for the entire play so that as long as we both agree on that and we can say yes it's the hug it's his apology it's the stabbing it's the whatever then we can go great all the things we're working on together whether it's one actor all of them or this moment or that transition are are pointing towards the same thing then it's like then we're gonna be okay it's when those things are misaligned that you go oh I didn't realize that you didn't realize this was a love story you thought it was a political drama oh no they can be both but we need to both be on the page that they are both and not want to do it yes yes yes yeah no it's kind of interesting I totally agree when when a writer is that clear it's super helpful but it's also like sometimes the best writing can come out of they don't know either they know their play like in their bones they know something about the play that is something I can't even imagine you know what I mean different brains again like there's some and I do love working with those writers where they're like embody what the play is about in a way but they if you ask them what it's about they couldn't quite say and I love like that is a I think those kind of relationships can be super helpful too because my way of working of like this is what I'm seeing is that it this is what I'm seeing can be incredibly helpful in that kind of relationship so it's again like that's like my nightmare to not know where I'm going yeah exactly which is like you know is awesome and I do think it's you're totally right to say a writer that can't say I don't know is that's a good not a good relationship either because that's a great thing all the answers then to have somebody go well where's your climax and you can either make it up and as you're fake it so you make it kind of thing like that's never going to end up being helpful but that one of the biggest thing I learned was to say clearly what you do know and also be the first to say I do not know any ideas yes or that like we will the best idea in the room you know or we will know you know what I mean just under this belief that you can and it's it's all gut you know like that's the funny thing for it that took the longest time for me to like come to terms with career wise was I'm good at figuring it out when it needs to be figured out and if I force myself to figure that out earlier because this actor or this writer or this producer just will not let it be I will come up with a worse version of the actual solution like I'm good at solutions so I'll find something but yeah that's so interesting you know what I mean like sometimes being like can everybody just do this scene with conviction for the next week like it's working you know what I mean like yeah it's terrible like this is not working but can we just keep doing it this way until one of us has an actual aha moment rather than like instead of doing the band aid and let's just cut it let's rewrite it let's do all the other things then just like let it be because I like sometimes you need time as an artist I need to look at it a few times over multiple days with different levels of sleep the night before you know to like go oh pause here and then the scene is like because I've had that happen where the solution was literally that simple and we were not making space to just have a moment to have that idea because we were so like as you said like tick tock tick tock opening is coming that anxiety can be super helpful and also can make you fix things that don't need fixing or the solution is actually much simpler and I'm sort of very very as I sort of continue to try to develop my craft you know in this next step of my career whatever that means like that's where I'm at it's like I'm not going to fix that yet I'm trying to get better at that yeah the solution is usually simple isn't it it's usually the simpler version but I think that's really really smart the idea that because it goes back to trusting yourself and being able to say with enough conviction I got this that isn't cutting off a conversation or you know making someone feel like they're not welcome in the process but also going let me do my thing owning what you need right like and this is where like if people as a writer in a new play process ideally a lot of this especially in the world premiere is set up so it can be for you but it's not always the case right where people can feel like their job in a world premiere is to tell you all the things that need to change right right like that and it's and that's a big thing for me like I will always start a world premiere production process like the first director speech I'm like imagine this is perfect right start from there especially for actors because what is going to teach us more is an amazing actor going at it 100% and failing or asking a question they don't understand is so much more useful than I think my character would do this right now like it's you know what I mean it's just more useful and similarly for directing especially if you're interested in the type of director than I am where I'm not the holder of all answers but I'm holder of the space it's so much more useful if you just let me have a moment and that I said I tried to set up my processes so I can ask for that the I don't know it of I don't know yet yeah that's so great you know yeah yeah as we're kind of aiming towards the hour I do want to make space to talk about your writing and kind of what it is to be writer, director, adapter maybe tell us a little bit about the project and the kind of I know that it is derailed as all things are postpone hopefully postpone right not derailed postpone but yeah what is what have you learned in that what what what is that in your brilliant brain yeah it's it's been a really interesting process as someone who's held space and process for so many different types of writers all of a sudden putting yourself into that space and almost like knowing too much like all the ways in which a writer could work and it took me a long time and I'm so thankful it's a co-writing project Thousand and One Nights at Retelling which is a commission which is commissioned by Cal Shakes we're creating it was supposed to be an adaptation but it's really becoming like a new play in response to the original oh that's cool yeah and it and it really weaves in a lot of amazing it's in parallel with a community storytelling project that Rashma Razvi is leading and the women Manasa women who take part in that project are incredibly generous with their stories with us and in we thought it could be sort of like docudrama pulled in but it's turning out to be a much more artistic sort of all of these stories coming through me and Leila Buck who's my co-writer and becoming something and getting woven in so these modern stories getting woven in the play as well so we've you know set up a pretty complicated process for ourselves but it's been really interesting like having space to figure out what kind of writer I am and what works for me if that makes sense yeah I am a comedic writer that came out pretty strong not to say that's the only thing I do but I and this makes sense like I am have always been drawn to political joy and comedy as political action that's been something I've always been drawn to and my writing voice easily clicks into that I find like that's where I start and then it deepens from there so like sort of an absurdism and you know like so something's twisted so that it's funny is just naturally what comes out of me but yeah it's been really interesting to figure that out figure out when I write and how I write has been really interesting that when is that and how is that oh god well now that I have the osf job never is the answer but before that I'm still trying to figure out how this like huge job interacts with my art making to be honest I'm very in the middle of it especially at this moment in time but before then it's actually I realize that I have to do a ton of thinking before I write and then when I write it comes out complete as a complete scene right like I think and think and think and think and think and then I sit and the writing actually in itself isn't that long and that first draft isn't great or anything like it's not remotely what it is but it is actually a beginning middle end scene and then once I have that then I can I'm a very good editor in life in general which is I think why I'm drawn to new plays directing so the editing part is actually quite joyous and lovely it's just that like because I have to it has to come out complete for some reason for me it takes a little bit of time to do it it's not surprising that co-writing works well for me because I'm used to creating new work in a collaboration so having someone to bounce ideas off of and and Leila is a wonderful generous open collaborator that has such space for people in her process while being also as just like very clear about like who she is what she likes and what she doesn't like it's it we've we made a good it took us a while like it they're upstairs they're downs they're lefts and rights when as any co-creation process but I feel like we've done a good job of finding each other in that process for as far as process goes and I also you're directing that either I am which is you are okay yeah and it was really interesting because we're about to go into that yes we were about to start that process and I was like oh my god this is going to be really hard oh yeah well and we just we had a question from Twitter about writing and directing your own stuff and and it seems like you are preparing for that do you have any I did it once I did it once which was much more of an adaptation of braggart soldier which is a plaudest ridiculous like comedy farce thing that I adapted which I thought was going to be just editing and then I it's so sexist like the original so funny like I love that play but it is so like the sexism of it is so horribly rooted in the middle that you can't edit it out like you have to rewrite which I did but it was like a really difficult process and what I found with directing my own work for my for me because I'm more comfortable as a director than a writer right I'm a director becoming a writer and not the other way around my when I would see a scene like look at a scene my assumption was that the writing was the problem always and I had to actually be generous with myself and be like maybe that's not it I see right like so my solution was like oh I'll rewrite that joke it's not working rather than being like oh the timing is off interesting you know so that because you don't have that other person you are the other person so you're having to have the conversation with yourself there is something like I don't know satisfying about like getting to do it like like you're like I own everything right like you're like you know like I can make all the decisions right like there's something I'm not gonna lie it was enjoyable for my you know for myself but I must say people ask if I want to direct and it's it is I'm mostly I'm in awe of great directors not just because of their vision and compassion and control of a room and how you just all of the things but also like time management people management making decisions all the things decisiveness yeah yeah and like just not because it's not people I don't know what they assume about directors but it's not coming into a room and be like here's what we're working on today in an accent and with a scarf and everything there's so much planning and decision making and organizing and that is less my strong suit but I do always I don't always want to direct but when I do want to direct it is the actor moment it's the moment stuff it's the moment building it's the crafting of the as you were saying the timing of the joke and the the exit like no take your time with that exit versus get your ass off the stage kind of an exit but that's where these relationships directors I think when when we collaborated well and Hila was when we were able to kind of go I could see something and you could see something else and both of them together was like oh look at that that's a full thing perfect well that one was such a like I must say there is which for a long time thousand and one nights felt also pretty collagy right like it was like a multiple ideas because we were trying to bring together so many things into one play and that's something I really get off on I really get excited by creatively it's very difficult it's very easy at the beginning and then really difficult at the end right to because at the beginning it's just like you can put a bunch of stuff you love in it and it's so easy to keep writing or keep creating and then you're like wait what are we making and certainly we were like again with thousand and one nights that was the that's the period we're in we're like wait this as this is gonna have to come together in more than just like things are next to each other and that can be really challenging but yeah it's the thing that's really important I would say and this is why I love the thousand and one nights process is that there is Leila right like that there is someone else who's keeping me honest there is someone else who's like if you're writing and directing you need an outside I that you really trust in this case we're both writing so she's like an inside I right like she's which is even better but like we're both in it together but we're looking at different things so even though I'm sort of holding the directorial space to she can continue to support and question my writing yeah right and both of those things are really important till the end right so that feels super important to me that's a very good practical piece of advice whether it's a dramaturge or just a kind of assistant director whatever you know associate director whatever it is it is a it's a lot of responsibility in terms of what you're saying of like the director like director timetable is one thing and the writer rewriting timetable is one thing and trying to find enough time in the day at the right point that works for your creative juices for both is a puzzle and yeah so that it's not also just like machinery right like because I'm good at like moving a thing through so I can write that thing in an hour to fit into the thing we're doing but that's not actually good you know it just works and if you want to make a good thing which I like to think we all do it's important to have that other person who can support you and you need a really good stage manager you know those things yeah that's really smart so we're so close to our hour and I wanted to yeah what if there's any kind of last thoughts I mean I feel like I could talk to you forever probably I want to know like between the two of us we can just keep going but I will say that I I was just looking at photos of the book of will production at Oregon Shakespeare Festival a few years ago but they were just emailed to me because of something anyway and just looking at them I just burst into tears because I miss OSF so much and I love that place so much and I was so excited to see how what you bring to them and they are so lucky to have you and Nataki as well so I'm excited and we're all thinking of you I know this is hard for every company out there but OSF is such like a beating heart of this nation's theater scene and ecology that I've been thinking a lot about y'all so oh my god thank you yeah I know it's you know it's hard we're in a very very hard place we're not unique in that you know the and it's this really weird cash issue right like how much money do you actually have in the bank so that you can get to the point where you're going to start making money again you know capitalism so it's just and that's a different thing than budgeting issue and that's been a really interesting process of trying to manage to that which is why I like there's I like live in excel sheets and basically and it's also this really interesting time which I'm well equipped for but it's like you make a plan and another plan and another plan and then you have to make a contingency plan for when none of those plans are taking you know because it's such an amorphous weird you know a pandemic is is just a morphing thing and you have to be prepared for the 12 options of the 12 options that could happen for every week and that's exhausting emotionally because we are you know it's hard to plan without committing to the plan it's it's an interesting challenge but theater people myself included we are a hopeful bunch right so you know I have my moments of like oh my god what's going to happen and then the next day we somehow think it's going to be fine right and you just get out there and do the work and the thing that Nataki said this in a meeting a couple of days ago with the full come the rest of the staff that's is with us still you know like we know how to do this it's never happened before but it is still our work right and I do feel that way to a certain extent with like even the creative work that's happening right now some of it is great some of it is terrible some of it is like whatever and that's okay that's actually theater you know like we know how to do this we are like built for keeping going right so if we can just remember that and take care of each other in that process I actually truly believe we're going to be okay yeah me too you know so that that's and it's there is something really beautiful about this moment that's happening which is you know you're part of this where people who have the means and the ability and the expertise are being generous right you can do a right with me session with Susan Laurie Parks for free right like and I have this feeling that like we will never go back the sort of elitist exclusive experience that theater has been built to to serve a very specific population in the American theater and purposefully excluding others I think it can't go back to that anymore because we've seen that there's another way and that it work I agree so I hope that this horrible thing that is happening and like let's be honest like theaters are very important but people are dying you know like I'm like very aware of the luxury of imagining storytelling right now but like I do actually think we're I hope we're going to hold on to some of the joyful access that we've been able to get to here forever more so that we never not have this conversation where people can log on and talk listen to us talk if they want to you know what I mean that that's possible you don't have to pay hundred dollars to do it you know I think that's exactly right and I think that is out of crisis comes a lot of of strange new things and some of the new things are not helpful and some of them have just popped the bubble of something that you don't put the bubble back together it's out now and isn't that a great thing that much like you I've taken such incredible comfort with theaters across the world that I would have never seen and I get to feel a part of I feel it's a global community really because we are now and I exactly the single thing can touch all of us we thought that was not possible and it is so now we have to live like it is you know that's right and it's just the thing is and I'm I take great comfort that there's been a lot of talk about you know this is my first year at OSF and I'm associate obviously but like Hannah Sharif and Stephanie Barra you know all all of these Nataki at OSF these incredible new leaders are in place and there is a little sadness that this is the thing they have to deal with in their first year but I'm like so fucking glad that it's them you know yeah right this next generation of leaders who are coming from different types of experiences so that they can have a different perspective on what's possible right because I think the theaters that are not going to make it are the ones that deceive themselves into believing that there's a going back to the what used to be right if you actually are trying to just hold on so that you can do exactly what you did before I think those are the theaters that are in trouble but these theaters that are being led by actual visionaries who are coming from different kind of experiences who see this moment as a possibility I think those are the theaters that could really thrive and jump start something yeah that's my hope oh I think let's jump start it right it's time it was time anyway it was time it's been time like we've been talking about how American theater is broken for like what two decades yeah let's fix it let's fix it the cat the cat agrees I love it um thank you so much everyone thank you for inviting it feels so nice to feel like an artist for like you know this hour where I get to talk art with this not their smart artist I think I think that's one thing we can always do can't always make as much theater in the same ways but we can talk about it forever more so thank you for being such for all that you do and for sharing this wisdom with us and it was it was an absolute joy thank you for having me well good yes awesome all right bye everybody thanks so much bye everyone questions in the comments and maybe I'll if everyone has a second we'll throw him one of the questions