 PDP caucuses demands prosecution of NCC officials over Electoral Act Bill. And what legal and safety repercussions could arise from the arrest of Nnamdi Kanu and Sunday Goho? These and more will shall be examining on post-politics. I am Mary Hanical. The People's Democratic Party PDP caucus in the House of Representatives have called on the appropriate authorities to arrest and prosecute officials of the National Communications Commission NCC for claiming that the electronic transmission of results by the independent National Electoral Commission INEC was not possible in the country. Earlier NCC officials had claimed that the 2018 technical reports of the NCC showed that only about 50% of the polling units had 3G, while 49% had 2G network and below. The PDP caucus leader Kingsley Chinda said the NCC officials lied to Nigerians while on horse and as such must be prosecuted for allegedly misleading Nigerians. Well joining us to discuss this is Professor Paul Ananabahi is a senior advocate of Nigeria. Thank you very much Professor for being here. Thank you. Great. Listening to the background, I mean the whole of last week into this week it's been a row between the Nigerians and members of the National Assembly and of course it's the electoral act bill that's been on the lips of people including PIB but we're not talking about the PIB today. We're looking at the electoral act bill. Now the Senate had taken its position obviously and now the ball has fallen to the House of Representatives who are now on recess so everybody has their fingers crossed hoping that when they come back we would hear something good from them but give us your take on all that has transpired on the floor of the National Assembly on the electoral act bill. Well let me start by saying that the issue of the electoral act is so important. It's significant. It is sensitive. So the National Assembly members and indeed every Nigerian should take the issues of the electoral act much much serious. You see because governance and the political structure is based on this electoral act because that's how you elect people. Now when you look at our election trajectory over the years I happen to have been involved in elections and election petitions. It trickles down and goes back to the electoral act and then you see that at some point I see if it is now the courts that keep mandates it is out of interpretation of the electoral act and if we don't get it right from the electoral act it will be difficult in 2023. So you're telling me that all of the problems that we've had all of the hiccups that we've experienced in electoral processes is because of the irregularities of our electoral act. And that's why there's been that call that the electoral act should be amended. I'll give you an example. The violence, smashing of boxes, writing of results and all that declaring the right person or the wrong person do rest and all that are all within the electoral act. And that's why many Nigerians, particularly who experienced in elections saw the amendment of the electoral act as so important. Now when we get to the real problem in the electoral act you begin to look at the accreditation system. If you accredit and you transmit you are beginning to check over voting because over voting is excess of votes over accreditation. Now generally people thought that over voting was just having more people registered in a polling booth voting in an election. That's one part. That's not even our problem in the country. Our problem is more votes than those accredited. Now when you look at a result sheet like EC8 series you will now see that most of the time that the number of votes will be higher than the number of accredited persons. And that's why I want Nigerians to understand the issues. The transmission of the initial part which is accreditation is important. Now if you transmit and it is because previously the electoral act did not cover most of these things. So when you bring those reports believing that the tribunal will listen to you they will be trashed. Now if we have that accreditation gone in there's no basis to alter from EC8 series on that. Then the actual voting. When the actual voting takes place as a result is being collated it is transmitted. Nobody will carry a lot of books. Nobody will stop a lot of books. What are you going to do with it? Because as you are speaking the result is already in Abuja. And I go for her to say that I had advocated that the National Assembly should actually make a further provision that 24 hours after the election I make most issue certified through accreditation result and the votes. That way we will reduce the election petitions. That way you will lose election. You know you've lost it. The distractions from election petitions and all that will be a thing of the past. So it's so important in the heart and soul of our electoral process. Now when you come to hear that oh you INEC should clarify from NCC before it can transmit. I don't understand where that comes from. Because constitutionally speaking INEC has the powers to determine the elections and the appropriate mode of holding the elections. If as we have had by 2018 we had 50% coverage of 3G. We say almost 2 years. I should mean even that 2018 is it. But by 2019 we have gotten up to 74% percent. Now why should we be talking about coverage now? When we are born in the year we are not that a country that has the resources to say because this is so important. Let us increase the capacity. But have we done it? Because I think this is the argument that some of these members were making. Whether we agree with them or not. But this is the argument they were making. Is there a certainty that these areas have been covered? Has coverage been expanded to certain areas? I think I remember somebody even said on the floor that there was no coverage in his area. Although there are people from his area who also came out to rebuff him. We are a country that can afford it but have we done it? Now the point we made is can you remember the amount of money INEC has been getting? INEC gave up and put those proposals. I expect they would have done their homework. So what we are trying to say is all that is required is for INEC to give a proper budgeting that will cover even if there is none. Technology today is no longer rocket science. That any part of this country can get even some gadgets that will ensure transmission. Even for that particular day of the election. So it shouldn't even be an issue. All that has been said for me is yes there will be transmission. INEC do all that is required to ensure there is transmission. So that we can have credibility in the elections. Well INEC had come out to also say that they do not have problems with transmitting these results. Exactly. All across the country. And so of course it makes Nigerians really wonder what the National Assembly members have why they have decided to go this route. And I want to ask you the same question. You are not a member of the National Assembly. Yes I am not. Why do you think that they have decided to go this route? I am not in their minds but I know that we politicize national issues. This is a bipartisan issue. It's not a matter of political leaning. Because some of the people in PDP today will still cross-capture to APC. Some of the people in APC today will also cross-capture to PDP. Once they begin the Congress and people start losing grip of their hold on parties. They start looking for where they will get proper hold. And when that happens. So it's not even in the best interest of the person being partisan in refusing to do what Nigerians will need as of now. I think that transmission of results is so important. Without hindrance on INEC, any hindrance on that is a recipe for uncertainty in the elections. I do election petitions in many rounds and I know that it's not in the best interest of this country to continue to have high level of election petitions. There should be cases where there should be petitions. Yes. And if there is electronic recording that is very clear to everybody. Many people will be discouraged from challenging elections. And then credibility will gradually be built into our system. I think that the National Assembly see that it is still within them to try to rectify that situation. I mean we saw how the Senate rounded it off. It also amidst the hues and the cries people were kicking against it. Governors even joined their voices. But the Senate seem to have made up their mind. If the Council of Friends comes with a different version, they will need to meet to harmonise the law. Let's talk about some other important things in the electoral act that is of major concern. Let's talk about election financing. We also have realised that the cap has been raised. In fact, ridiculously for some people. I remember that in the last elections for the presidency, I think they had to pay about 27 million. And now we're talking billions. Election finances is an issue that Nigerians have been concerned about. Especially with the not too young to run bill and trying to get more people on board. Do you think that this was done on purpose to try to maybe rid people of the opportunity to run for offices? Or to just preserve these offices for a certain group of people? What exactly is the idea with this raising of? Well, speaking for myself, I felt disappointed with those provisions. Because it also goes to show that we may not be paying the appropriate attention to anti-corruption. If you give latitude for presidential election to up to 15 billion, what are you saying? You're saying that any candidate that wants to run for presidency should be able to have 15 billion or be capable of raising it from where? Those who will help in raising that money after raising it, won't it become an investment for them that they need to draw from? What are you making out of the country? What are you teaching the younger ones? So it means that once you rush and get money, by any means. And then if you want to run an election, look at governance, 5 billion. Even when it was 27 million, we were not able to control it. If you now say 15 billion, you will find that to run an election that you need over 100 billion. And that's the problem. It cuts off those who don't have the means. But who have this country outside to serve this country? So we shouldn't monetize our election. Everything is becoming a money affair. It shouldn't be so. We need people who love this country, who want to serve this country. Not necessarily those who have all the money. Because by the time I'm asking you to come and donate to my campaign, I am going to make concessions known and unknown. It will lead to, I mean, people selling the assets, it will lead to, you know, seeding some political offices to even mediocre, and less low productivity. And we'll start complaining. And what ever happened to a level playing field for, I mean, all of us, just as you have said, those who really need to want to serve, who may not necessarily have the type of backing or the monies, the finances, I mean, where does that come in? Of course, let me also throw in there that one of the positives is that we have been given an opening for those who do not necessarily need a political party. So we have independence running. That for now will exist in theory in Nigeria. Why do you think so? Because I just need to come to terms with it and be able to run it. As we speak now, most political elements in this country belong to a political party. Now, you can only... Why can't we change that culture? You can only... Over time, we're now beginning to know that, oh, really, independent candidates can't work. It's not automatic. Why do we have to wait overtime? Why can't we test it now? Now, I agree that we have independent candidates, but I'm saying when you're not coming to politics, who are the independent candidates we're having a meeting with? He will have to source everything for himself. That's the problem. Well, that's when he will be able to actually get to the people directly. Maybe the person can sort it in. I can't... And can't... You want to run... And bypass all of the parties... Yes, you want to run for presidency in this country and you are an independent candidate. Well, realistically, should you start... I mean, for an independent realistically, should you start by running for presidency? So why do we set up a situation where people are practically excluded from the beginning? You want to be a governor in a state, and then you begin to set up your own structure in a whole state. That... The 15 million will be a choice play. So these are the realities in all the East and the North in the arguments. Now, who money toss this money? This funding? Who money toss it? How it is gotten? How it is spent? We're talking about electoral offences commission. Are we ready for it? I encourage an election offences commission. Perhaps if we had that, it would have helped us in some extent. In 2015, if I'm not mistaken, that was the first time Sarah started asking questions about political party funding. In 2019, if I'm not mistaken, they took the PDP and the APC to court, asking that they make their party finances open. As we speak, it's still yet to be adhered to. And it's not that it's anything outside our laws. There is some provision for those monies to be made open. And here we are talking about monies that have gone up to 15 billion Naira for party tickets. So really, who's overseeing all of this? That's the point. And who holds these parties to account? That's the point. And I tell you, when you are looking at an election issue, and you are questioning an election based on malpractices or corrupt practices, that for example, some people committed some offences, the tribunal will tell you that you have to prove if you're unreasonable doubt. If we had election offences commission and they are timed, they will be able to conclude such and provide evidence for it for election petition. So that is why it's important to have an election offences commission. And I believe that such commission should be given powers to monitor, investigate and monitor. How independent should that be? Because I'm asking this question and you know where I'm coming from. We have INEC, which has an appendage independent at the beginning, but really is INEC independent. And then that's the detail for the ICPC and the ESCC. So if we're asking for this offence commission, who's electing them? Who's putting them there? I agree entirely with the scenario you're looking at. But you know my attitude to it is that by 2014, did we know that PDP that wanted to rule for 60 years would leave power? So you wouldn't know. So a party may think that, oh, we'll be here for 100 years. And Nigerians think otherwise. In fact, the main existence of that commission, and depending on the leadership of that commission, headship of that commission, we may begin to see a reduction in the level of offences and crimes in our elections. Because it will not just be INEC alone. INEC doesn't have what it takes to run election and to look after the criminal content. And the security agencies that are sent to support INEC do not have such their weaker even than their INEC in the independence issue. So an electoral offences commission will certainly be better. I'm really curious because again, it falls back to the National Assembly. Will the National Assembly be determining who heads that particular commission? Well, headship, like I pointed out, such offices, we may begin to try out certain things, not allowing the president to appoint such persons. We've been used to, public officers being nominated by the president or appointed or not, that I'd better say they go through a scenario. Isn't that what the constitution allows? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. This commission is not provided for in the constitution. So as we're bringing in that by law, we could try to see whether such person will have to be elected or may have to be screened even by another organization rather than go into the Senate, may have to be screened by maybe justices of the Supreme Court or Court of Appeal so that they look at it to be much more out of politics. Interesting. Well, let's talk about other issues. Mr. President obviously is yet to ascend to this bill because we're waiting for the House of Representatives to ascend to it. Do you think that Mr. President will have any reservations as to what's already on that paper? Well, Mr. President has a legal team. He has a chief law officer of the country. So I will expect that the president, this is a very important piece of legislation we want to ascend. If he has objections, those objections will be taken care of quickly because everybody is looking at that and looking at 2023. Every day we are closer to 2023. And you could see that there's been much traffic at the National Assembly. I expect the presidency to do that and that we have this law in good time so that Nigerians can understand the law. Practitioners will understand the new legal regime and possibly try it in one of these elections that are coming and then test them in the courts and tribunals and see how it goes. And you just played to my next question because I was going to ask that the fact that we've seen politics play and party sentiments come to play in some of the content of this bill, what lessons should Nigerians learn from all that has happened? Because a lot of people naturally are not interested in things like this until it's election day and then we scream and shout that ballot boxes have been snatched. So we're not really having free for incredible elections but shouldn't we be involved from this point down to the election day because we always wait until it's election day. I tell you many Nigerians are getting interested in politics some willingly and some just have to. I mean many people today when you ask them what are you doing? I'm a politician. The economy is not doing so well. So people money comes in much more from politics so people now become professional politicians and people are also getting more educated, more invested and as more people are getting educated they are beginning to know that with all your funds with all your wealth power is greater than your wealth. The occupant of a political office can put up a policy or a law that will run your ground so people are beginning to understand the relevance of political life and so it's not so easy now to see the power it's also easy now to ignore power even people on the streets even the free leaders association on the streets corners and newspapers because if you see the level of analysis and political awareness you will be wondering so we are making progress in that direction. As a professor and someone who is in the classroom more often I've always wanted to ask this question should we maybe think of photoeducation as part of our curriculum because I'm thinking that we wait for the N-O-A and the N-O-A comes alive just a few weeks before the elections and of course we can point to issues of not being empowered not being given the money that they need to do all of that. If I had my way in governance I would pay so much attention to N-O-A the earlier time Mr President was head of state of this country you remember the war against the discipline Nigerians began to do things differently now I also expect that to come up if we have a lot of emphasis on orientation it will go a long way now voter education is important it should be one of the general courses in all our universities even up to secondary school level and not just what INEC does let's catch them young when I was in primary school we used to do civics civics education it was called civics I wish that can come back let's children from their primary school begin to understand their basic rights civics against secondary school we have NECO and other why don't we have a general one unit course every Nigerian should do it civics to know your basic rights your basic duty just something close to NYS the basic duty is to go to the state what it means to be a Nigerian the level of practice is expected why you should not be ethnic biased or religious biased why you should see everyone what is the Nigerianness Nigerianness the word Nigerianness it's important I wish we had time I would have gone into all of that what is the Nigerianness that's my coinage of what should be seen in the Nigerianness Nigerianness because at the moment my understanding is that you have more of an Igbo man house man Yoruba a Jewish man and all that not everyone agrees it's a Nigerian so we should begin to talk about and we should be asking those questions Nigerianness yes because when you go abroad and you meet an American where are you from he says I'm American but in Nigeria I think we're Igbo first before you asked me a question today and my answer was yes we're all victims of the situation I mean it's a conversation for another day but before we go the average person who's been having this conversation whether on breakfast tables in beer parlours or at the food reader stand is asking what is the fear of the average member of the National Assembly why are our politicians afraid of this election electronic transmission of results what is really the apprehension let me speak like are we not supposed to make our elections full proof well you know let me speak like someone who has been involved also in politics in elections when you leave the election many of them many of those in this National Assembly remember they don't so much control vote finance like in secretive at the local levels they are highly respected they are in Abuja in the house of assembly so people who have been expecting that they will get to Abuja and come with lorry loads of funds and give everybody jobs they don't bring it so many of them are not popular at home now the only way to go is to save funds and influence the election by way of using your voice to make sure police everything to make sure they win they will not be very comfortable in my thinking to throw the election open and say whatever comes up transmission of results will make it impossible for you to write result I want to call those what they call write result they get the electoral sheets and write results and with the bill now going on if it goes on I don't no longer has powers to stop a politician that comes under the rest to be declared against declared you are not going to tribunal and Marianne when you get to tribunal you say different kind of fish you have to prove that you are the actual winner and before you can it's on the party and then before you could come out or you may not have the resources to pay the quality of lawyers who can do it the political party gets interested to make sure they don't lose the seats all kinds of things so it is better they try to win by enemies without this transmission this transmission may not be in the best interest of politicians who have not done well and it makes me really wonder where the interest of the average Nigerian comes in here but of course that's a story for another day Professor Paul Ananabah is a senior advocate of Nigeria thank you very much for being part of this conversation well we'll take a short break and when we come back we'll be discussing the arrest of Namdi Kano and Sondik Buhu and the legal insecurity issues surrounding it but first we want to find out from Nigerians what they're thinking on the streets of Nigeria okay they say this Flandersmen come in in multitude with our cadres hundreds and they cannot trace them but Namdi Kano they can trace him so I think Nigerian progress politics to me we know what we are doing but let's tell ourselves the truth if they can face Namdi Kano from outside country and Flandersmen they cannot trace them and who is fully who? first of all it's corruption which is normal in the country and it's not about Nigeria it's about Africa because it was arrested outside Nigeria which is not supposed to happen and we all know that fighting for your right or for progress or movement in this country is not possible well it's not right well there's still a lot of things to fight for in this country they just leave those two men they should free them people are cleaning this side I mean on the north side the government government are not doing anything to them so what do you think they just free them I don't think it's necessary to arrest them because they are fighting for their rights I believe they are fighting for everybody because if Nigeria is good everybody will benefit on that but if Nigeria is not good you see how the country is now if Nigeria is not good people will not be happy things will not be normal I think these people are just fighting for freedom just to make sure that things work well