 All right, so thanks for coming. And well, welcome to my bath about who is learning the Dagnan.org website. Well, probably most of you know the website already, but maybe we can take a closer look at it first. So all the guys who have internet please open the web page. Yeah. Do you? Like, you know, that's what it looks like, so you know. Maybe I, Christian Perrier, he had a request. Yes. He had a request. Yes. He wanted that you explain how to pronounce your name. Okay, well, all right. Agnieszka. Agnieszka Tarkovska. Well, these most people say it looks similar. Okay? Yeah. Um, right. So, we've been asking a few people about the website not only Davy users but also other people who I showed it to and it was quite important for me to collect some feedback. And many people did criticize a few things. So maybe before we get back to the design part, I'd just explain a few structural stuff, but at least it could be Chinese for the website itself and then we just go back to the design part. Um, so basically the first thing I've been told about this website is that it's very difficult to navigate. Um, I don't know what to tell about you, but if you can say something about this, do you feel the same or what is it for you, Davy? Yeah. Essentially, that was the main part of my website talk last year. The usability of it really sucks, but as everyone can see, nobody, nothing ever resulted from that, mostly due to time constraints on my part. But I would admit that there are big improvements possible. So will there, yeah. Yeah, sure. You told me. Okay, so any more feedback on that side? So maybe we, like all of them. I think when you go to the website now, it's nobody's fault. Right now, however, how the website is, and there is a website somewhere, it's not on the website. You know, on the site map. Yes. And it's on the site map? Yes, of course. The site map is nobody's fault, but it loves some of the part of the website. I think this is the first point to think of. Yeah, the thing is that you have to be aware of one thing. I mean, if people go to Davy's network, they see, this is the first thing they see is the index HTML or whatever, so this is the thing that people see. Mostly people do not go to the site map first to be able to navigate. So they basically would like to have the navigation kind of logical and fast to use. And I shall give one example here. When you go, maybe it puts to the camera, so if you can see. Okay, so when you go back to the website here, there's like something quite strange. First of all, we have an navigation object, right? And we have navigation in here, but the stuff is repeating. So you see, you have, you look here, you have about, and then you have here about Damian. So what happens when you click on this? What do you have in there? I mean, you have a menu here, which is sort of the main menu, and then you have another main menu in here, which is also divided into sub menus. Do you understand? Yeah. So this is not really logical. And so let's see what happens. I'm not quite, I didn't try that yet, so let's see what surprise we're going to have. See that? So this is also one thing that is quite a criticize group because you certainly lose the navigation ahead before. Actually, maybe you can go back in here. What about the other parts of the navigation? Because we really don't know which one to focus on. Do you get that? Yeah. Okay. And this is a complete different side opening here, which is not constantly designed for the rest of it. And now I just wonder, how the hell do you go back to the main navigation, for example? So okay, you press the black button, what, which? Let's do that. And another thing is, when you have like a navigation verb, this long, it is not really usable because people do not like to read. And if you have too much information on one section, it gets really exhausting for people to get over it. And if somebody would have it on a low resolution, you must have to scroll. So the main thing about building a short page is it's really to avoid scrolling as much as possible because that gets much easier for people to deal with. Well, can anybody explain, please, the logical structure of that? Because why do we have here a main menu and why do we have here the same main menu with submenus? I mean, the cost for being there is particularly historically grown. Like, the main menu on the top was there from the beginning and someone thought, hmm, you can't actually go to many parts of the website very fast. So let's, on the start page, add another menu so that you can jump to many pages directly. So that's the historical, yeah, events that led to this addition. It was even before my time, so I really don't know exactly, but it's my guess. I think it would be a good compromise so that you can really reach those things fast and really choose where your main menu, you know, that you can reach from everywhere. And then, for example, you have some submenus and you just put them separately so that people are able to navigate because in here it's just in chaos and you really don't know which one to focus. Do you understand that? Sure. I mean, if you put the navigation bar here, it's a design question, basically. So if we have submenus, you rather main menu point and then when you click on that, then a submenu could appear. You understand? Yeah. Not all the browsers support it. That's the problem. It's a big sort of thing you have to, you can program to some problem. For example, you use links. I will suggest that you have only the main menu at the main page and when you go to that part of the page, then the submenu could be at the left side. Oh, this is a little bit lazy. Maybe it's working now. I hope it's working now. Right, so if we... You see that here, right? So when I click on that, it is a submenu, you see? So it just appears... I think it's just a normal HTML thing. You don't have to do anything extra. Just CSS and HTML, basically. So this is not supposed to be a problem. Another thing which is quite difficult is you'll see those lines are extremely long and I don't know if you guys ever read a e-book or something and when the lines are very long, they get exhausted or your eyes get very exhausted after that. So, actually, you should minimize the... What is it? Wide? More growth? Yeah, same. So that people are able to read the text. If I, for example, click in the free software link, then you see like a mass of text, which is... I mean, see that? This is really... People are able to read this at once unless it goes like over half an hour and it's already tired of reading this. Besides the fact that there are still many missing in the navigation. So... Yeah, what? I connect to... No, that's the wrong one. Let's look, that looks better. Yeah. Can you pause this for a little? Sorry? Pause. Just a little break before... I don't know if you are sure. And... commercial break. Yeah, commercial break. All right. Do you have any more questions? I think the question is, do you have already some... Yes. Yeah, okay. Sure. I think that's what we're waiting for. Yes! You do, no? Okay, we're... Bleed for... I don't know, Sony. I don't know how to do it, I don't use macOS. Do you pick up the phone? No, from someone else. Who's the camera? Who is... I see. No, I don't know. Actually, it's supposed to show. It doesn't. Okay, but... I think you will be okay when I just show it around. Okay? Why doesn't this work? I don't know. Did you connect... next to the... No. Your computer. Your computer. Oh, you don't have a blue screen. It's got to be this fast, but it doesn't even last. Actually, it should recognize this screen, so... No, it doesn't work. Things can get worse. Now, I have to take my resolution back, sorry. So basically, what we're waiting for is the design set that I would have created. I just go back to my image viewer. See that. Can you expand the menu? What? Did you put any... Yes, yes, yes. So basically, the idea behind it was to... You know, because the swirl looks like kind of... You know, something very light and very... I don't know, swirling. And... I don't know. Just to create quite some looping. Which would also be capable when it's competing. Like when the test is going to be quite long and then you go to top, so there won't be any collisions. So that's why I chose the red background. Well, at least... The part of communication... Well, here's the... I just put it a little bit more logical. I put the main communication here. And you are here in an active part. And this is the sub-navigation. And you have like... You're being in this and being in that part of the sub-navigation. Can you get it? So... You maybe have a partner to do it that way. So that you have a... The main navigation you have like on top. And the sub-navigation from each... From each part from the main navigation just be here. As you can see, it's not that long. Some people really can easily navigate. Okay, this one here. I think that's a design question. We can put it anywhere. So... I was thinking maybe about putting the sitemap and put it in here. Search... Maybe here. Instead of finding a serve on the view. But these are like details which can be discussed separately. You know, because... We're quite flexible using this design. So what you have basically here is... It's a semi-transparent bar which is like on the swirls. Well, I think it transports... And you should have your problem though. And we have the same thing here too. And this line which also marks the active menu active part of the menu by just having this space in between. I think you can see that. Right? So basically I've done in here... This is the RL version. Like when you have all text with RL. All these things can also be created with CSS. So this is the problem. Which is the special color. Yes. I like it more with... Instead of four swirls, I have a swirl in the left tab. The problem is when you put it in the left and then somebody has a different resolution. It will repeat. And that sucks. But you can show only one swirl. I think it will look better with one swirl. I see too many. You actually can read the text above the swirls. Yeah. So, I don't know, from here it looks... I see the swirls but I don't see the text. I like it but with many swirls. Yes, maybe I just can put one away. This one? No. Only one. I think it's only one. More in the right of the text. No. See, if it's right right now, it's hiding all the text. What could you do to compromise this? Maybe in here I put another single transparent or something that is covering the swirls or I put it in some way. I don't know. Have you tested this because we need to have compatibility with most of the browsers? Yes, sure. Have you tested this with some other browsers? No, these are just images. Text-based browsers. Just images but this is not a problem to make it like XHD now, it wasn't sure. The place should be compared to the links. Yes, I know. Can I sign in? Can I move this way and this way? Here. Only hiding all the text. Okay. It's not so annoying. Okay, so another thing before I make some changes I can do right now because I have my illustrator open so I can just do it on the fly. Maybe just finish this. This is the idea that I have for David. Because this font as we have it right now just is not really good because it's too heavy and it's really, as he said, it's maybe the same effect that you were talking about. Everything. I think it hides this one from Swarov. How do they sign in the font? The font is actually free one. At least it's available in Linux distributions. It's called avant-garde. Mm-hmm. And I used the same font for the Debcon. It was hard enough to find at least a free font and then really it had this kind of fine line design. So I think basically it's a kind of balance between the Swarov and the font. In your design can you go back then? I don't see any footer or something like that. This is just a sample. All that stuff can be added separately. So this is just a little sample of the design because I mean this is just an image basically. Do you have any idea with the language? Because right now it's in the foot of the face and it's very ugly. When you did that it's ugly. Can you maybe do one thing like a checkbox? No. I mean for the languages that instead of a checkbox he has a checkbox. Selectbox. Sorry, I'm sorry. This is the thing I really can't discuss about. I mean I can place the things. You can put it here somewhere close to the navigation. Because when people have to do the problem we should really put it in the beginning because people don't notice that there is a full session anyway. Because most of you do not even go to it. The problem with these details are yeah I don't the problem is that many of these details you probably have to consider in design because you have to at least have a place to place them somewhere. Yeah, sure. So for that case I would like to check Ariel as the font. Shut up. Because Vardana is way too much space, you see. And this is the same font size. Which fonts are these now? Vardana is Ariel and this is Vardana. Vardana taking way too much space. Yes, yes, sure. These are normal fonts that you are using on my pages. Yeah, but that's not the problem because the browser needs to have these fonts. I mean, the font we can't really tell anyway which font the user will use. Because basically it depends which fonts he has and I mean I guess it's more the text width and it's probably good just to give a relational maximum width that the user should use and depending on the font this will be longer or not, but at least the number of characters will be at about the same. I think that's what it's all about about the number of characters not so much about the width of the text, or is it? I don't know. It is, because the font size is completely different. But I think I think people need to probably change the font. Yeah, very hard to do. Okay, so let's put the same font size away. Well, at least don't leave me with this word so it's not what I want to say. Just a big one for sure. Something like that. Can you see? Can you? No, no, wait a minute. Like the heart of the speaker. Or the swing, sorry. More to the right. You don't need to show all the spiral. You can show all the heart. No, no, no, that's not good. So I'd rather put it like this over here. So it's not completely in the center. It's not better now, but I think we can show only half. Center. Now, in the center now. And then the right side. The left side, but the thing is the width. But if you repeat, it will really suck because you have just tons of hearts. Yeah, you can. But, for example, if you use links, links is not going to support it. And I don't know. Yeah, but for this word, for this word, it doesn't matter whether links because it's the background image and links completely ignore it. I think. But you have to use your script to prevent it from repeating or no, no, no. What she meant was, I think if you do that at the background, then the background. Yeah, and what she meant was that the background image repeats automatically. But that was what you meant with repeating. When somebody has a different resolution, they will repeat. You can see and you can see no repeat. And you only have one. So you mean she should anchor it at the right and no repeat. Because in the center it's very very intrusive. If the browser supports any CSS, I think it will do. I don't know. I think the only sucky browsers regarding basic stuff like this are older Internet Explorer versions and everything down from 6.0 I wouldn't worry so much about. It's my opinion, but I don't know. And if you try to worry about Netscape 4 it's a completely different topic. I think no one should worry about that. No. That's just how it is. Yeah. And bloody. I think it was to find out why it doesn't work. No, it has to be on the computer. It has to follow the law. No, you can't do that. So I don't know. Yeah. Just have to press twice. So experiment with the computer. So you have a little bit of transparency of the source of the testing because it doesn't work. Or you need it to read the text. It's very interesting. Very interesting. Or I made a swirl on your library. You need a swim to play more fun, you know, more nice. But you want people to read the text. Yes, yes, yes. The transparency of the swim maybe. That's what I was thinking. I don't want to hear it in the middle. Okay, but what's happening if some design but there will be some since David said but not too much. Much better. Much better. Much better. And she proposed something. What happened then? There are several things about a design we need to talk about if implementing it. One thing is the menus because you need to define them somewhere or to implement creating them. So one needs a solution for that and one needs to program that. The next thing is I mean changing the layout as such should be fairly easy because you just need to change the template. What you can't forget though is that most of the sites currently will not work if you depend on XHTML or something like that because most of the body texts are HTML currently and are not XHTML compliant. So if you really want to do an XHTML if you really want to but I don't think it has anything to do with the design. No, no because the problem is just up to you. I think HTML4 and XHTML don't display differently if you will. Or today? Because I like the more because it gives a little more tension. Can we compromise or not? I don't know. It's not that... I still see two minus parts. Okay, but it's not a detail that really matters at the moment. I just wrote the layout. Because there's just one square here and then it just gives a little tension to the website. You understand? It's very swirly. It's just simple. I mean, the site itself is actually because you just have the background and the rest is just CSS. Well, decide this part. I don't know if you can do that in HTML. Just one pixel. So, the main problem with implementing a new design is really if you want to combine it with new menus to implement that part. Everything else should be fairly easy. You just need to make a patch for the template or a new template generally because patches of huge patches of HTML files don't give you anything. But, yeah. The main problem would be to talk about the menus. On which site do you want which entries and stuff like that. Well, I made a few suggestions here on the structure. I hope you could follow that in a way. This is only my conclusion of what maybe would be the way in the right direction. But I think this is basically a commutation thing and I really should talk about this. Is it still only this one? Because I think it's quite hard for me to make a platform website because you like it so simple. So, I didn't have any great ideas to do some more. I mean, I can try, but... I still have some time alone. I think it was last. He has some kind of design that was very cool. With He's not here, but Google asked him last. All right. He was very close to... He was paid. The menu here in the lab. And I don't know what it is. Well, but anyway, we have a proposal from there and you said there's more proposals. How there is a community. I want to say that they like this and let's use it. Let's program this. I mean, the main thing first is someone who can coordinate this stuff. So someone who tells, yeah, I want that we have a new design and maybe it's that, maybe it's another one, but let's see the proposals and see them together and discuss the problems with them or the advantages. Let's see how much the actual HTML actually differs. That would be another thing to see to maybe try to really get a good HTML background so that if you ever change the design again, you mostly can get away with changing the CSS. I think the structure right now of the HTML is suboptimal and you will need to change the tool if you change the design. But if you have a really clear and good structure you can do many changes just by choosing another CSS file. I was thinking what is better, and change all the page, solidly plus or step by step? If you change the design you basically change it for the whole website at once because the whole website uses only one template. You can do little changes on the template. You can go over it now. You can go either to the little changes on the template. One day I change, another day I change. Step by step. I don't know what the advantage of that would be. Because if you change all the site at the same time we are always forwarding some stuff. For example, when the last change today was changed some time ago it was from standard to understand and all it was. When we were meeting the changes, and the people who were meeting the changes was heading somewhere else. She was doing the I think the last change was doing what we would do. People were detecting the problems and fixing it. If we do a very average change suddenly we are going to have a lot of problems. But anyway we cannot do anything like a local context. Everybody likes to switch as a main logo after a time seeing all the proposals so doing something like that in order to achieve a complete redesign of the web page but it's a democratic decision. It's impossible the west side democracy decision because it's not all people are going to like it. Of course it's the same thing that happened with the law. Not everybody likes it's real not everybody. But the problem is you really should be aware of and I think that's the thing that people are taking wrong the website you're not doing it just for you guys in turn you do it for everybody else you do it for the people who see the website who maybe don't have a clue about them and you have to give them something which they can see it's professional yeah you can understand the problem. Whether it's something that looks kind of professional and serious and you cannot because this is the present for the public it is not for you guys you understand. Yeah but that doesn't change the problem that one needs to think of how the decision process should look like. Who just I talked to many people here like also and some other people as well and they were quite welcome to see changes. Yeah You just need to tell me the persons who are responsible for that Yeah but that's the problem with the whole website. I mean like I'm a webmaster so I can change pretty everything I have to write for everything on the website and stuff like that. So when there are other webmasters there are I think three active people at the moment who are the webmasters, that is me this is Joey Schulze and that is Matt Kray I don't know how they are the active webmasters but being a webmaster actually means more currently means more like being responsible for the technical infrastructure and stuff that normal CVS committers can't do because they don't have to write to so we are not really decision makers we could do that but we would get a lot of heat for that if we try to be like the leaders of the web team so I mean there are like 10 people or maybe even 20 if you don't count the translators that work on the website if you count the translators there is much more but many of them really don't care about the technical details they care about that the text is there and it's translated so the problem with that is we don't have any real leader at the moment we even lack people that are really active at the moment I mean like I'm a bit active and other people are a bit active so that's the real problem at the moment with the website you don't have someone who can decide this actually so if there is anyone who wants to decide why not just go for it yeah that's pretty much how it has to work that someone decides to decide and makes it yeah you need someone who puts in the energy to make this happen yeah you can do it on your main any of this I don't see any problem with that but that person is going to decide all that I mean someone should make a proposal so what I had in mind last year before I realized I don't have the time for it to make a proposal for the process at first then get some discussion about that and then just do it so you practically send a mail like we should do it this now and that's the steps I have in mind that we need to follow like first get some proposals but we have already some then secondly set up a test website with the proposals that we deem are good so that you can see technical problems with them and that's no problem I mean you just do a CVS check out of the website, change the template and we build it completely and we have getting hardware for that to set it up is not the problem and we decide on which proposal to take or something like that and this step needs a bit more detail obviously but you need someone to initiate this and yeah the main problem is to find people that are interested in doing it I mean there are many people interested in talking about it but you need to find people that are interested in doing it yeah but you need to find now some people that are interested in making the technical making the implementation of the background of the back-end working I mean I'm interested in that I have no time right now I will have time in my company but I just see that some people will be interested in doing that to work with I think it should not be such a problem you can't find people to do it if because have some guarantee that his work or the work is going to do to work with some of those people who do some work I mean they don't have a way to to get this work in their work it's pretty up to us really I don't think that everybody is interested so well I think so basically I guess there needs to be a really sign yeah so and we should maybe do my things like set up or announce it somewhere in the list that there's going to be something like that and maybe you can show it for both of us or for both of us somewhere I don't know who has them or where I want to talk about it any questions comments I think you should try also to well I hope it will be like that but anyway it will be good for you to bring this discussion at least your template or your design to end up with the WWW main list so more people can and it's better you don't send any money it's better you show our pay already made sorry it's better you send a mail for discussion don't send don't link any money link an HTML page no HTML I think this is not a good idea because I need you have to it's just about the work actually it doesn't work from experience it actually doesn't work because people want to already the problem is there are so many technical orientated people there and they will to try out what happens if I make the font size 300%, 400% what happens if I do that when I change my font yeah but it's really much time to program this and for that doing this for you basically the work flow goes like this then if you decide some detailed things then you come to the very the graphics for the actual website because everything else is really so much work and we will not be forward with that okay yeah so that's the thing one needs to probably then explain in detail in the mail that yes yeah I only explain the problems that will occur one has to work around that yeah oh no no but I think these are things in this class but you really before it goes to realizing that we really should wait for I mean I can't explain this my concept behind all this I guess it's pretty clear for you guys I don't know how the others look like and I don't know if people who done this are also designers so well actually the rest is planned out too whether if you find some people I could find something I want to say something from outside of the game the users maybe we see now the website doesn't at all represent what they mean at all you are a very serious movement we need you, we need to see your very great image so please do whatever you need to do but this class we see in the website and it is I think is very I don't know urgently need to do this because there's plenty of other sub-projects like Ubuntu and all these things having incredible great web pages representative ARTLs and everything and the mother of all of them has a very humble website and I think it is really something manageable to do this year this year at least have some proposals of the graphic design and then next year not much more than next year with the dummy test websites mounted with that designs just make an invention to know the real course or something and do it shooting so include some technical issues to the usability of the site because mainly for the people that are not used to the avian website because for example I sent to somebody here's the web page download the net install and for me it's easy to find it but some people get really really lost something like popular download and they don't want any new niche can you give me the link please but that's really a problem about the content also and that opens the whole other kind of worms to speak it and it's not that much of another discussion but it's another lot of work if you change the design you can change some things of that but to really increase the usability of the site even more you need to work on the content and that's a lot of work yeah but so the the procedure for this is send a mic with a chance with a patch that's pushing I mean it has to start with some discussion on the main I'm not sure how to initiate best my worry is actually really once you start discussion you can stop discussing and this is we really should be able to do and not discuss too much sometimes it just gets like you over you need a lot of time if you want to do change from inside of the game and the websites yeah the main problem as I said the main problem is that we don't have currently someone who could lead this discussion to something useful because we don't have some lead person in the web team and that we should be able to deal with this without some but it makes it much harder so it's really a social problem at the moment I would say but we should certainly try but we probably need to discuss this later more because now it's eating time yeah it's much time soon but we can certainly discuss this later today yeah sure