 Welcome to JSA TV and JSA Podcasts, the newsroom for telecom and ladies and professionals. I'm John Maxalime and joining me today is Emma Fryer, partner at Business Consulting and Services firm ERM, standing for Environmental Resources Management. Emma, thank you so much for talking to me. It's been a while since we've done an interview. I mean, first, how are you and what's this new role? Right, so yes, after 10 years at Tech UK, sitting between the industry and the external world, which was a bit like between a rock and a hard place, I've moved to ERM. It's the world's largest pure place sustainability consultancy. So in a sense, I'm working with the same people on the same issues, but now I'm under the bonnet. So I've got a different perspective on it, but yeah, very much the same kind of industry, same kind of thing. So I haven't left the industry at all. I'm still very much here. Well, it would be a massive loss if you had left the industry. So I think a lot of people would be very happy around the globe to have you still here. But I mean, speaking about sustainability and the drivers and focusing on Europe as well, what drivers are really driving the development of the sector in this old continent? Okay, so I think you've got a number, it's a bit like a perfect storm. You've got really rapid growth, not just in the traditional markets and not just in obscure trading estates and industrial parks. You've got new sites being developed all over at scale. And we're starting to see them even, you know, there's some markets where we've always seen campus developments. The UK isn't really one of those. And we're starting to see bigger developments within, you know, within communities now, they're becoming much more visible these new developments. You've got this passive growth. And also you've got a clustering effect with this growth. So data centers, you know, are, as we know, they, they, they have locational attributes, and they also are fairly demanding of resources we now consider scarce like power and water. And when they cluster, that effect is magnified and people really notice them. So we've got that growth on the one hand. And then we've got, I'd say, perhaps, you know, more external drivers to the sector, which are obviously things like policy, which is hugely impactful. Yeah, absolutely. The, you know, the European policymakers are, they used to, you know, data centers used to be captured by policy by accident by regulation. So we had things like ID and the EETS, which weren't really designed for the sector. Now data centers are absolutely in the crosshairs of the regulators, and they are called out in loads of regulation, and they're even developing data center, always data center specific policy instruments we're seeing. We've got a much better dialogue with them now, but that is that's hugely ambitious. And that's a massive driver for sort of new sustainability practices within the industry. Then we've got power provisioning. So the fact that we are struggling to find power in certain locations, I think that's going to get some to some degree forced data centers to look elsewhere, but it will also accelerate the way that we're deploying alternative energy, renewable energy sources. So I think that will accelerate that. I think we've got about an eight year lag before some of the solutions are going to be ready. And that isn't going to solve current build needs, but that's there. And then there are two others that I think are really important. One is public perception, which is, you know, as I said, they're starting to be visible within communities. And the last one is sort of partnerships and voluntary agreements. And what we've seen with the industry, you've seen the iMason's climate accord, which is looking at actually looking at the embodied energy in data centers, which is absolutely spot on in terms of time, because as we decarbonize the operations, that embodied energy is going to be more important. And the European Commission on a regulatory level is pushing for that. They've got really intense scrutiny on that. So I think that that's a that is a really important one. And then you've got things like the Climate Neutral Data Center Pact, where they're, you know, they're doing a really good job in bringing up, you know, the minimum standards for the industry. And also they have transformed the policy dialogue with the Commission. So we have a much more enlightened and sort of co-operative policy dialogue. So I think those are the big ones. They all begin with P, which is useful to remember them policy, power, perception and partnership. The famous four or five P's. I was going to ask you maybe a bit of a housekeeping general question, but and I don't want to make this about Brexit. I think we've had a lot of coverage around Brexit, but where do UK operators have to look to nowadays for legislation? Do they look to Brussels or Downing Street? They're still looking to Brussels, really. I think there will be, what worries me to some extent is that as you get divergence of legislation over time, they then just have to comply with both. So I must admit, we certainly I didn't in any way drop my attention off the Brussels policymaking machine for UK operators because they are and most of them have sites across Europe anyway. And that makes it frustrating because they'll then find that they're dealing with one set of instruments in the UK and others in in the rest of Europe. So I think it's even then, I mean, even within the the European nation-state, there's not as much consistency as you think in the way that these instruments are implemented. You know, you take something like EU ETS, it's actually regulation, it's implemented differently. So it's not really for regulation a single entity. So it's I think it's we've now just got an additional layer of complexity. Okay, but then from what you've seen, because we do see a lot more things coming out of Brussels, out of the European Commission, the European Union, and they do specifically mention data centres as well. From what you've seen, are they taking the right path? Is it the right avenue? Or it's you can see it becoming quite overwhelming? And maybe too much that can hinder a bit of the developments in the next five, 10 years? I think the direction is right, because we've got some very, very big, you know, environmental issues that we have to solve collectively. I worry a bit in terms of sometimes the implementation. So there's some very, very ambitious new instruments or the recast of existing ones where they're bringing in lots of things that companies must have a transformation plan or they must do life cycle assessment of their supply chain. But they don't say how. And, you know, that is that could be hugely burdensome for small companies. It's hugely burdensome for big companies. So, you know, this is something the sector has got to get to grips with over the next few years, because 2030, by which time we're supposed to be climate neutral is still not far away. Although what has happened is that there has been a discussion because the commission said, well, they hadn't defined what what they meant by climate neutral by 2030. And that discussion is now being held between the sector and the commission in a very productive way. So I think the direction is right. But I just think sometimes the way these things are implemented can be burdensome, specifically for smaller users, smaller providers. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And I mean, we heard this week, someone actually making the point that there's about just 30 quarters to go until 2030. Yes, I heard that too. Yeah. So and 30 quarters. Yeah, because no one has a pretty that way. It's usually like, oh, we've got seven, eight years. And 30 quarters will go like that. It's it's a blink of an eye to get there. So there's a lot of work to be done. But you also mentioned scrutiny. And I think that's very, very interesting, because this is starting to come up a lot more, especially around the public opinion. So people getting a little bit against data centers. And I guess maybe there comes a little bit to the marketing done on the data center side to explain to populations what data centers actually do for them. What's your view on the public's perception? And whether this is all going and of course, sustainability is probably the biggest pain point when it comes to public perception around data centers. I think it's a really it's certainly front of mind for operators. Certainly at the shows I've been at this week, it came up in every single session I attended was on so public perceptions incredibly important. And I think the sector doesn't always help itself by being quite secretive. There's a kind of nothing to see here, nothing to see here. There's a massive great development going on here. And people won't say what it is. And as I said, as they get, you know, with this clustering effect, particularly, you can understand then why people are thinking, well, are there going to be jobs for me? Are people just going to come in with fancy cars and push house prices up? Local authorities are going to worry about longer term things. For instance, if you end up with a very homogeneous set of businesses and employers in an area, they want a variety of employers in an area. And so if you get a very heavy custom clustering effect, they might not like that. So there's all these sorts of long term things and short term things. And I do think that what we're seeing in the sector is a complete change of mindset in how they do in how they do this. So previously, it was just something you kind of did to get your slightly planning. And now it's a we're seeing really good practice in the sector. I only know this because I'm a judge on a couple of awards, which are about social engagement, community engagement. And I see these fantastic case studies coming in. What's interesting, though, and a lot of companies are doing really good stuff after. So it's, you know, they're now doing very high quality, properly engaged activities with their communities and sort of along community development in terms of creating jobs, upskilling, retraining, all sorts of things. And again, we're not really hearing about those enough, I think we're not sharing that best practice. And the other thing that I have noticed, and this is only anecdotally, is that operators I've spoken to seem to have those two things as separate processes. So the pre build, there's one team that does community engagement, and those are now doing, you know, a really good job. And then post build, there's a different team. And I, I haven't seen that much evidence of it being a seamless process that might just because I haven't, you know, engaged enough. But it's about joining that thing up, I think. And I think, you know, I would have said a few years ago that really, all the best practice was in other sectors on this sectors, we don't really associate ourselves with like mining and oil and gas and chemicals. Yeah, because they've had 30 years of experience. But actually, we're seeing good practice in this sector now, we just need to learn from each other and share it, I think. Okay. Well, what's been like a good example, they've seen you don't need the mission names, but we hear a lot about, of course, the heat exchangers going to the communities, heats, heating pipelines. We've heard about bees, we've heard about raising fish, greenhouses, sunflowers. What's been like something that has really like, oh, this is a really good idea. I think it's when it's qualitative. So I've seen some where you actually speak to people, they find out what they need, what are their educational and employment goals. And then you help them meet that, you either fund programs, or you do outreach, or you do, not sure we do, you know, you take in people, or so I think those ones where, and there are quite a few of those now, where it's entirely informed and co-led by the communities. It's not just about, it's not just about merch, of course it's not. It's about engaging with those communities to find out what they need, what would make their lives better. And some talk about a community dividend, and I think that's a really good term. You know, it's not just about, you know, share dividends, there should be a community dividend as well. So I think those are looking at that community dividend are the really good examples. Yeah, I mean, well, the gentrification data center, the data center cannot overshadow the human capital, especially the community human capital, which is very important. But I think the other aspect is whether we've seen changing a lot in the last few years, and I guess even more of a COVID with the big, the booming construction that we had, it's around investment, because the world and the street is, if you're not green, if you don't have a green plan, you get no cash at all now. And with cash becoming more expensive, that's even more, it makes things even harder. So what's your take on the investment front? So I, that's a really interesting question, because for years, we've seen customers driving sustainability practices, we want you to buy green power, we want this one. So you see that in procurement. And I think investors have been later to that. And now they've kind of overtaken and they're being really, really demanding. But if you look at the new instruments coming in, you know, the taxonomy, TCFD, coming CSRD, then those have real teeth, and it will be impossible, I think, to get investment if you can't perform well against the criteria. I think you just gave us a podcast name, The Realty of Data Senses. I think that'll be, I think that'll be an amazing podcast. And then, I mean, I'm almost jumping from topic to topic, because there's so much to talk about this, if we don't do it this way, we can talk faster. Yeah, I already talked to you first, no one understands me. So I was going to ask you about the power provisioning, because unfortunately, we are not in the best situation right now, especially in Europe. I was going to ask you what do you expect, and I know it's a hard question, because no one really knows if we knew, we wouldn't probably go into it. But what do you kind of expect that's going to happen over this winter in European continents, and maybe a little bit beyond that? So data center developments, I don't know enough about the sort of commodity situations of whether we're really going to struggle this winter. Where I think the issues are with a lot of the power provision, particularly in the UK, and I spent years sort of banging on the door of National Grid saying, you know, can we talk about data centers? And they come back and say, well, why do you need to talk about data centers? They're all in Ireland. Well, actually, they're not. And the sector's growing fast, and we need to talk to you about capacity. And the problem is the grid is so heavily regulated, they cannot speculate of the ad capacity. They have to respond. And I think that is one problem, just just freeing up some of that more speculative approach to power provisioning by the providers. But also it's very inflexible in the sense that it's created a tragedy of the commons. Everyone then tries to buy as much power as they possibly could ever use ever. So power provisioning is all about the maximum amount you might ever use. And then once you've captured that power, there's no opportunity to, and I don't know what the phrase is, I remember talking about this earlier this week, but to sort of sublet that while you're not using it, which would actually then take a lot of strain off and we can't. So it's about fundamentally, it's about having a strategic conversation between the users and providers. And that hasn't happened yet, certainly not in the UK. And that was really about as far as my bailiwick went in terms of power provisioning. And obviously it is forcing and it will drive an accelerated uptake in renewables, but there's only so much you can do as these, you know, to get these things, most of these technologies are still piloting. And that they're not going to be deployed in a critical environment until people are really sure we think that for eight years for many of them. Okay, so 80 period. My question would be then, are you worried over the next few months? I'm not, but it's not, I'm not running a data center. So people they run data centers should be worried. I honestly don't know. I mean, I think we do incredibly well in terms of power security and backup. What, you know, what you, what we would be concerned about, I suspect is, and I'm only speculating here, is sort of second order risks. So what happens, we need to come, you know, operators need to come off load or, you know, come off grid because there isn't enough power to go around, they have to run on diesel. How do we know they're going to be able to resupply that? How long will they have to do that? What will be the air quality impacts? You know, and I know there has been a conversation with the environment agency, you know, because if they're obliged to run, because there isn't enough power, there will have to be some, some, you know, some very hard work done to make sure that sensitive receptors aren't affected by additional running. So there's, you know, it's non, it's non trivial on every level. And no one wants to run their data central diesel. No, it's even your days was not something we really wanted to do and especially now, but hopefully this will all drive the adoption of sustainability, sustainable frameworks a lot faster as well come this spring, because a lot of governments are deploying so much renewable energy systems now, especially in southern Europe. So hopefully that will all push us into a better place after this period. I think so. I mean, I think the problem with that is that you've got to then get that it's about the capacity and the network to get it where you need it. So that's going to be, I think, the biggest challenge. That's another one. Yeah. Well, we've seen friends blocking that a little bit. Let's not get political. But we have seen even even in times of crisis, some countries have blocked some of those developments to bring energy to where it's needed. Because of long term objectives. So yeah, well, yeah, well, because Portugal and Spain got very affected by something like that. And they're now looking to Italy to maybe get a pipeline through Italy as opposed to the through France. Wow. Yeah. So I mean, it's, yeah, bad periods, they always also bring things up. They focus the mind. They focus the mind, don't they? Yeah. Yeah. But I was going to ask you because I mean, you are one of the brightest minds in the sector around this topic. I was going to ask you what did I not ask you that you you think it's important right now? Oh, I think you've I think you've been very comprehensive. I think certainly at the moment I am I'm most interested in this public perception, because that is, you know, if we get that wrong, and battle lines get drawn up, then it's, you know, it all becomes ideological, it stops being a proper conversation. So actually, although we've already talked about it, that is my that's certainly my front of mind and how we do that, how we do that right. Okay, that's interesting. So the interest is definitely shifting towards another thematic, which is very interesting. And then Emma, to conclude, I was going to ask you where can people find you find more information about ERM? How can people reach out? Brilliant. Okay, so there's a ERM website, erm.com. That's quite easy one. Easy. I'm on LinkedIn. So by all means drop me an Oton LinkedIn and love to get in touch. Okay, cool. And I'm sure you always have loads of messages. So very in mind with your reply. But Emma, thank you so much for talking to me. It's been a pleasure. It's been so long as well. So it's really been a pleasure talking to you. And hope we see you soon in the flesh. As for your home, thank you so much for watching and for tuning into JSA TV and JSA podcast. And don't forget to check our social channels for more content. Until next time, happy networking.