 Hello, hello, everybody. What an exciting day today is because I get to chat with these two amazing women, Deborah and Tina, from the Dramatas Guild. The Dramatas Guild is the greatest. I warned them that I was going to just to the Dramatas Guild's horn from a personal place for a little bit because when I was a kid, I was, I mean, 15, 16 and realized how much I loved writing. That was the first place that I turned. Someone said, you know, look this place up. And I got the Dramatas Source Book, which was the big chunky Bible at that time. And I just highlighted and dog-eared and sent out my plays from that source. And that's what really started everything, what started my whole career and have gone to them several times, really in my careers with, I don't know what this contract is or it should it be different. And, and then was an honoree of theirs, Landford Wilson Prize a few years ago, which just meant the absolute world to me. So I am over the moon excited to talk to these fine folks and to introduce you for those of you who don't have a relationship with the Dramatas Guild yet. I hope you start one today. And, and yes, they have our backs. They're here for us. And at this very moment, we get to ask all the questions. So I will be checking the questions live. So send us anything you want some answers to. I already have a couple that have been sent my way. So let's get this thing started. Hi, ladies, how are you? Hey, so happy to be talking to you. Likewise. So I want to ask as a way of introduction, kind of how the two of you became the two of you? How did you become who you are? How did you get to the guild? Why theater kind of what's your, you know, short origin story? Deborah, would you like to start? So I was just one of those people that always, you know, performed in theater and loved theater and wanted to do theater and perform. I performed for many, many years, doing all kinds of things. I went to conservatory for a while. This was going to be what I was going to be on stage. And I in between went to law school because it's good to have a plan B. And I went to Cardozo, where we had, we learned about entertainment law, all things like that. But I should say, I guess the thing that pushed me to law schools, I actually had an internship with Dujanson theaters. And I was working for an attorney there. And I said, boy, oh boy, if the performing doesn't work out, I could still be part of this thing that I love doing what he does. So that's, that's how I ended up going to law school. But still knowing I was always going to do something in theater. And one day, looking through the playbill audition ads, I came across the wonderful ad from the drama skill looking for an attorney. And I said, oh, how is that to me? Like, who else are you going to find to do this? Okay, there have been many others. But so that was, and I've been there for eight years. So it's just been a beautiful marriage of everything that's meant anything to me. So it's awesome. Yay, theater and law. Everyone out there, you can always have a theater and whatever else, there's probably a position out there for you. Tina, tell us about you. How do you come to be you? I think everybody has to have a theater and right, my, but I came to, I came to theater, I started as a, as a director, and then I realized that the things that made me a bad director made me a good producer. I love, I love compromise. And I started something called the 24 hour plays back in 1995, 25 years ago. And through the 24 plays, I've met so many writers all around the world. And when this job came up at the Dramatist Guild, I'd met Gary Garrison, my immediate predecessor at the Lily Awards. And he said, well, you know, I'm going to be moving to a new position. And I'm wondering if you might be interested. And I thought, Oh, no, that will never happen. And then I am beyond thrilled that four years ago, I got to fill his shoes at the Guild. And it has been, it's just, it's glorious that it is an organization run by writers. And I have to admit, I was skeptical, starting at the Guild thinking, I don't know if an artist run organization is really going to be. And it is, it's, it's like heaven. It's like bring it to me. I, I, I love the drama. I'm like, I'm like, I'm just a fan. And I get to do it there. I feel so lucky. Likewise. Oh, yay. And I'll shut up. Gary. Oh, I love that man. So yes. So now let's start questions. I mean, this session is really about the resources and the knowledge and the wisdom that y'all have for writers out there. A lot of those folks watching are somewhere between just starting out, just graduating high school going, I love this. Can I do this? And folks who have had half a dozen productions or, you know, so I think we were running the gamut. But honestly, the more writers I talk to, the more the questions are pretty much the same. Like how do you do this? How do you know you're not being taken advantage of contractually? What are resources out there to build my career? How does, how does this kind of contracting thing, thing work? So maybe you could just kind of start with a bit of a rundown of kind of what the dramatist has for writers as far as resources and stuff like that. I would just start out by saying just for everyone to realize that we're a trade association, right? We're the National Trade Association for Playwrights, Composers and Lyruses. So that means we're not a union. There is no union for Playwrights, Composers and Lyruses. They are on their own, which means they do have to learn how to handle their business individually. While most data professionals are unionized labor, they're going to collectively bargain their employees of the producer, they get pensions, they get health care, the playwrights are not, the dramatists are not. We don't collectively bargain on behalf of our members. We can tell, you know, we talk about industry standards a lot, these are the going rates, these are the things that we're seeing. But you're independent contractors, you're owning your copyright, which is your most precious asset. And that's how you're going to make, hopefully, most of your money going forward and how you're going to fill your pensions and your health care through this work that you're creating. So when you look at it through that lens, you realize how important it is to have an organization like The Guild, because one of our biggest member benefits, I think, I guess because I run it too, is our help desk, which is where you can write in and ask every question under the sun from, does this contract look standard? Can you compare it to others in the industry? To, I don't like my agency, never returns my calls. You know, it runs again like literally anything. We will talk to you about it. And if we don't have the answers, we're going to try to connect you to somebody else. So that's sort of the business side. And part of that is also model contracts that we have best practices that we develop through our committees. We have some for festivals, we have some for working with directors. So really giving you the tools that you need to operate and to really investigate issues. And then we have the creative side as well, which is I think a whole community that you get to join into. Community, the magazine is full of great articles and kind of, you know, playwriting real talk. This is really frustrating. This is really exciting. What is this? And of course, the resources, the really wonderful website where you can, I know, because I've done it, put up your profile and a little bit about you and how to get in touch with you as a singular writer. And of course, a ton of opportunities. You can search the opportunities, what's coming up now, what's just for theater for young audiences, what's for 10 minute plays, what's for this, what's for that. And again, that's how my whole career started was looking through the, you know, the early version of that on paper. So it really is an incredible, incredible organization that is kind of a collective, collective brainpower for all of those who are interested in joining. Yeah, I think it's also important to point out that before the drama skills, the drama skills been around for 100 years. And before that, playwrights did not own their own copyright. Producers owned the work, you were paid some flat fee for your work, and then you would sometimes be paid like the third night box office returns. And that was it. And the producers owned your work, they could exploit it and they could rewrite it, they could turn it into a musical, they eventually could make it into films. And then the drama skills really shifted that for writers. And every sort of everything that we think of as being a kind of, oh, this is standard, or this is something you can expect every one of those rights that a dramatist enjoys is something that has been clawed back from producers over the course of 100 years. And then because we can't collectively bargain, those standards and values have been collectively maintained by writers, not just for themselves, but on behalf of their fellow writers. And so while I think it would be great if we could collectively bargain and get minimum standards, the fact that those standards are maintained by writers for each other is to me, it's a miracle. And it's a daily miracle at the guilt. Yeah, yeah, I think it is something we work on on a daily basis for every single member that calls that we talk to. It's about how do we make sure that you have the right to be in the room ever, whether it's a performance or a soldier casting session. How do you make sure that nobody's making changes to your work? That's done on a daily basis, individual by individual, and we are still inserting those things into contracts. So they're standard in that we, you know, generally expect them, but they're by no way guaranteed. I remember as a young writer, there was a, they changed the ending of a play. And I was like, no, you like just know one, you didn't ask to know, I would never agree to that. And then they kept pushing back like, well, well, well, and I was like, are you going to make me call the drama to skills? Right? I will call the drama skills. They, they, they got their act together. But yes, so it is true in that, in this kind of sense of having somebody to ask the question and then having the confidence and the group behind you to say, you can't treat me this way or my work is my work or what have you. Let's go into some questions like practical questions about what's going on. I'd love to talk about starting with, let's just start with the moment we're in, where of course now we are all diving headfirst into streaming, digital zoom theater, et cetera, et cetera. I know that you have amazingly prepared for this and know a lot about this. Can you kind of tell us what the drama skills kind of knowledge and perspective about this is? I mean, one of the things that we do at the Guild is, is watch the marketplace, watch what's happening. So I would say maybe four or five years ago, I started to see more, you know, things we're streaming. Broadway HD was starting Netflix shows every now and then you'd get little tidbits. Then they went into all of that streaming live shows that they did with hairspray and grease and they had all, so this kind of stuff has been happening and that's one of the great things about, you know, this organization is that we're able to watch these things. We're able to investigate at the time and start to gather as much information as we can so that we can provide that information to our membership. So I think there was a lot of panic like, oh my gosh, this is a new thing we're doing. Now they want to put, okay, maybe doing it on zoom is new. That's, that's, but the concept is something that we certainly have been aware of and watching for quite a while and, you know, we right away came out with a set of guidelines, which I don't know if they're posted publicly, but they were given to our membership. They're on our website, if you are a member, about how to conduct yourself. What should you be looking for when you're given a set of terms? For example, when does it end? How many viewings will there be? Are you getting paid? Because you still should be getting paid. I would say the one thing that's been coming up a lot is just this beautiful, generous world that we live in right now where everyone should be given free content because they're stuck in their homes. At the same time, you know, this is what we do at the Guild. You don't want to be making decisions that are going to impact your work 10 years from now out of this sort of environment that we're in now. So that's what we've been talking about. We've been talking about how do you evaluate these contracts that are coming before you? And let's, let's help you think past this emergency and let's think, let's think past the waiver of rights. And if you are going to waive a right, how can we help you to think of that in a limited way so that it's not going on forever? So yeah, I mean, I don't know if this will be a trend that exists forever or more, but you know, we're working, we're trying to get some model contracts, some model language, there's a committee that's formed to investigate more about new media. So that's something we're definitely going to be continuing to talk about develop tools and guidelines for, but yeah, I mean, it's a new world yet not one we weren't prepared for, and not one that our members can't navigate and if they need help, that's what we're there for. That's great. I think almost every playwright is being asked to write a monologue, right, you know, can we do a reading of this on Zoom or stream this, stream that. So I certainly have been thinking hard about what that is and what it is to be charitable and generous and saying, sure, go ahead and read it, you know, as long as you are raising money or awareness for something of value or because if you're making money for yourself or your theater, then you should definitely make sure that you're paying the writer, some of that as well and, you know, how to kind of navigate what feels good to be free to say, yes, please do this and what feels like, ah, that seems like you're just doing this to do something for you and that we should all, you know, benefit in a more equitable way. It's really hard because I think sometimes the playwright is put in a position where they have to say no, and then there's this bad guy who's ruined this entire experience for all these people and that, you know, you can always blame that on me or blame it on someone else at the guilt. That's why you should be a member, you can have a scapegoat. Always blame us. But it is interesting too in terms of the, there's so many artistic directors that are thinking really quickly and really creatively about not just do we do live or streaming, but how can we pivot quickly between both as this new world we're in continues to charge forward. And so I'm really curious about, you know, having what is a normal contract that could include and in the case of such and such, we pivot to the remaining shows we stream that go or whatever, you know, so I think that the more flexibility that we can have to kind of keep the art going, that's the only thing I really care about right now is take care of the artists and everyone involved and keep the art going and anything that is a kind of a no or a stop or a don't feels unhelpful, like a slow down maybe, but like a stop feels like, come on, we're theater people, we make stuff, we put stuff out there. But it's great to know that you have all of this experience and thought already. Yeah, Tina. Yeah, I just wanted to say that this, one of the things that we are noting from talking to our members and just hearing from people and as Deb points out from paying attention, is that for writers, this time is not actually a slowdown for them. Most we're not, like we're not theater purists, we recognize that a writer, a dramatic writer, is going to put together a kind of a hybrid career of which writing for the stage is just one piece. And we were just saying that you're one of the few writers who actually has it like a really big chunk of your pie is writing for the stage. But for most writers that also includes teaching and television and other kinds of writing. And we're not, because we're the drama skill doesn't mean that we think that you should only be writing for the stage, we think you should have a diversified portfolio if you want to have a long lasting career. So this is just another element. In certain ways, this is kind of business as usual for us. And for our members, you know, writers are constantly having shows canceled and the rug ripped out from under them with no guarantee that it's ever going to happen again. And in certain ways, our people are more prepared emotionally for the kind of tumult of this slowdown. And we just want to make sure that they don't that those artistic directors who've never thought about this before, don't accidentally allow writers to enter into bad agreements. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's wonderful. We had a question. We can always come back to this if there's more questions about live streaming and all the things and the things of the things. And but it's great to know that this is an ongoing and quickly iterating conversation. I think that's kind of what certainly writers need to know. Every day it seems a little bit different, like we're going back, we're not going back, we're doing this, we're not doing that, we're big, small, little big. Anyway, so one question came from somebody about world premiere status. And if there's a kind of guild perspective on that, let me actually find the actual question. Because it was basically about what, let me find it, should have been more prepared. Okay. Where was it? Oh, anyway, I'll remember it. Okay, so basically it was what counts as a world premiere. If you've had a production, but it wasn't professionally reviewed or there weren't equity actors in it. What can you still submit, say something to a world premiere contest or award? If it's had maybe one production, but it was small, but it was whatever. Does the guild have any answer to this fabulous question? Yeah, I'm actually, while you were trying to pull that up, I was trying to pull up our festival guidelines where we attempted to offer. But, you know, the thing with the word world premiere, it's not really a defined term, it's very much a marketing term. So your world premiere will hopefully be at a world premiere venue, right, which is not an amateur venue. It's going to have some professional actors or something going on. It's going to go on for a certain amount of time, probably at least 12 performances. But when you're asking that question of, well, can I submit to it? What did they say? Well, then you have to go back to two things. First of all, the people you're having that production with, did they ask you to call it a world premiere? Were they calling it a world premiere? Were their ads going out? They were calling this thing world premiere? So that part's important. And it's not something that somebody should be getting without talking to you, right? But then when you're submitting and the festival saying or the content saying, you know, only unproduced or things that we want to be able to have the world premiere, you know, when they're, you need to start to ask them to define some of those terms too. Because the terms are what they are in your contracts, what they are with these people that you're talking to. So as much as we are offering our own view of if you need a definition of this, here it is. This is generally speaking what one would expect of what should be asking out of a world premiere. It's the parties that you're dealing with and what you're agreeing to in that first instance. And when somebody comes back and asks for it for a second instance, you know, you know, I mean, and it's a term so you can be crafty. You can have a world premiere here and there if you want to divide it up. The rolling world premiere is my second favorite idea in the American theater besides the guild. But you know, what it is, it's a valuable term because it is that marketing term. It's what the producer wants that term because that's going to get more people to come and see the show. They can use that. So you want to use it at the right point in time. So you're welcome to use our definition. But I can't tell you what if yours was a world premiere because that would, you'd have to go back and check. Yeah, it seems like a conversation that you can have. And even if they called it a world premiere, you know, five years ago at the small theater that was this and that, and it wasn't actually reviewed, I'm, I bet you could have a respectful conversation with another producer saying, I really consider that a workshop premiere because, you know, I've learned so much and rewrote after and you know, so I think it's all, we're all making this up. It's a made up term. So you can kind of make it up how it serves you. Everything is negotiable. There we go. That's the lawyer version of what I just said. So let's say somebody is starting out. They have never had a production before. What are the kind of, where would you point them in terms of finding that first production? I know every playwright has a journey that diverges in different places. But how do you, how do you talk to unproduced writers who are just so ready and so craving to kind of get there, get that first production? How do you, where do you point them? Do you want me to do this one, Deb? I can start. You're talking, but I'd say you go. Well, I would say, I think the way I, the way I approach this is, I think it's really important to find your people. And as a young writer starting out, I think figuring out who actually gets your work and who can do, who can actually stage it in a way that it is what you want it to be on stage. Maybe it surprises you and you see things in it that you hadn't seen before, but really you want to find people who are going to represent your work the way you want to see it reaching audiences. And so some of that can come from going to see a lot of theaters. So I know this sounds like I'm talking around the other way, but go see things. If you're young, you can get into almost anything for free. So in your community, make sure you're going to see things, make sure you're going to readings if you're, if you have access to them. And this also right now, you have this enormous amount of information available to you online. So watch people's readings, find actors who you think, I want to hear that person speaking my words, and then see if you can connect directly with them. Before you go to a producer who's going to pay off, they have to spend an enormous amount of money, see if you can find your community first, because one of the things that we see now especially is, is we see writers who've connected with an artistic community rise with them together. And it used to be that you as a writer would get peeled off from your team at some point, you'd get sort of like plucked out by an artistic director. And with the rise of things like Hamilton, where you have an entire creative team that was allowed to stick together through every iteration of that show. I mean, that's what's really remarkable about Hamilton is that it got to keep its creative team intact throughout its sort of in fantasy, drug or not status. I really recommend for people you find, you find that group, and you see if you can't keep working, working with them as you hone your own voice. That's great. And also, I would say, you know, finding your group, but if you are literally don't even know where to go, I would say look in, to your point, look in your own community, go see plays, go notice who directed them, notice who wrote them, notice, oh, I really like all the plays that this theater does. And I always leave that theater being like, well, get it done better, you know, finding the taste, finding the the and then use that as a guideline. You could even ask that theater, they have email addresses can say, I love the work that you do. Are there any other theaters in the country that you feel are your brother and sister theaters? And then look at those theaters and see if they have opportunities. A lot of these theaters have submission guidelines. But I would, I would mostly urge folks to look at the drama skilled website for these resources and find the contests, the awards, the new play festivals, the people who are basically saying, give me your new plays, please send them here. Because there's a lot of places that have that. And looking at the biggest theater in your town who says, you know, you can send us 10 pages, and we may or may not get back to you, maybe less useful of your time than just that. That's a very, it's, it's hard. They have very small staffs. They just are not reading plays the way they used to read plays. And so a lot of things depend on you getting referred up through the system. And as infuriating as that can be, it's also an opportunity for you to meet people. So our resource directory, not to, but you're doing such a nice job describing it. If you're a member of the guild, you have a, your own dashboard on our website, and you can save all of these opportunities to that dashboard. So you can go through the calendar, you can go through the resource directory, and if you see anything that you think is interesting, you can save it. If you're have questions about something in your reading an article, say an article that Deb wrote, or you want the contests and festivals, you can save all those things in your dashboard. So you have one place on the guild site where you can keep all of that. It's like a Pinterest board for opportunities. And like the guilds, the resource directory, plus something like New Play Exchange, plus Playwright Center, plus just doing your own Googling like New Play Contest, can also, all of those can kind of triangulate into giving you a real sense of the landscape of the American theater, which is really what we're talking about. You need to know the people who do the work that you do and offer resources and opportunities for young writers and then focus on them. And then as you become more and more seasoned, then you'll be able to have more conversations with theater companies that just say, you know what, we'd like to commission you. We love your work so much. Let's commission you. And then once you get that first commission, you can take it to the guild and be like, is this sound right? Does this look good? Am I doing this right? We're having a couple questions come in. So someone asked, should you wait to have a few productions under your belt before you talk to any guilds or unions? So I guess like, what do you have to do to become a part of the Dramatist Guild? You just have to write a play or work for the stage. So we have different levels, career stage levels of membership in the guild. And so if you're an associate member, all you have to do is submit a completed work that you have written for the stage. Once you've been produced or published, and there are some sort of guidelines for what that means, it's not self published, it's not produced by your mom in your basement. But once you've been produced or published, then you move to up to member level. And then it really unlocks all of the resources of the guild. But if you want to have a question with Deborah or a conversation with business affairs, even just at the associate level, you have full access to all of that. That's awesome. So like write a play, say I wrote a play, and then go join. That is amazing. So I like the idea that it's easy to write a play. I just want to point out that lots of people think they can do that. It's really hard. It is hard. It's hard is joining the guild. But there you go. It's not a hard, yeah, it's not like, you know, you have to qualify or get so many points or whatnot. You just write your play. But I like that the bar is a bit self determined. So those of you who are like, I'm a playwright, damn it. Then you are a playwright, damn it. Like write the play, then you're a playwright, then you have can unlock all of these resources that can make this be the first of dozens of plays that you've written, which is awesome. So this it also there's another question that says, is it possible to be a member of the guild if you don't have the means to produce your work in New York, which is definitely right. Yeah, for sure. Please. We have we have 30 regional reps and 50 ambassadors around the country. Most of the really exciting work that is happening in this country is not happening in New York. I love New York. I love the work that happens there. But it is just like any other local theater community. It's parochial. And it's hard to get into if you don't know the right people. But brilliant work. Lauren, you're such a good example. You're a person who did who was able to have one of the most successful playwriting careers. You're one of the examples that we point to. Don's elitist is another really good example. Yeah, it's great. There's absolutely if you if you don't need to live in New York, don't it's full of coronavirus. You guys stay out. Our theaters are going to be the last to reopen. Interesting idea. For the first feeble future, theater is going to be more theater is going to happen outside of New York than in New York. So, wow, that's an enormous idea. It's but it's thrilling. And we're so here for that. Our members, we have 8000 members around the country. Less than half of our members are in the New York area. And and really, really thrilling work is happening everywhere. And we're here. I will say that's part of what moved me so much. That wonderful award that I was given a couple years ago. I know it was four years ago because I was pregnant with my son who just turned four. So four years old four years ago. But that was part of the the interesting conversation about it was honoring a regional a regionally based career. So that we start to shift the narrative a little bit that you have to be in New York, that you have to have work done in New York, that you have to have success work done with all the raves in New York, that the country's big, and it's full of really diverse and exciting and creative and productive companies. And you can absolutely have a career that's, you know, go to New York sometimes, but live live large in in other places. Let me see. Okay. What is your work? Thoughts and right now. I'm trying to play. Okay, let's see. So this person is asking. So this is a thought about right now in this pandemic world. I have funding for development of my play, but now on hold because of the virus. I know I'm not alone. How are you dealing? How are all of you dealing with being on hold? Yeah, what is the what is the guild's perspective on kind of stuff that is paused? And I'm sure that kind of puts a wrench in certain contracts that had deadlines attached to them. And I mean, is there like a general understanding that just everything is on pause and we're going to reevaluate or is there something that writers can do to protect themselves? I don't know if I'm just a weird spot. But I don't feel like we're on pause. Do you feel like we're on pause? I feel like I am getting contracts in every day. So people are making plans for the shows that couldn't happen, you know, either those contracts are getting extended, or, you know, not happening, but you know, you still got your advance, at least from that, you know, and you kind of move on, but I think things are happening. People are talking like I don't get this sense that people have stopped thinking or stopped looking towards creating in the near future. The lead time on play on theatrical production is so long that in a lot of cases, Deborah, you're probably looking you're looking at a contract that somebody's getting right now, a commission somebody's getting right now. There's no expectation that that work is going to be produced anytime in the right. It's not for next month, for sure. But I think a lot of people are trying to make those those plans to shift either shift or have an addendum to their contract to make something happen now or to have something at least be pushed to the next season if it couldn't happen now. That's what I'm hopeful. I think a lot of writers are hoping that these these productions aren't canceled. They are postponed. But it is interesting because there's a lot of that language can be frightening for those. I mean, I know a lot of my colleagues have just seen every single show, of course, just been wiped out, but hopeful that the relationships with those companies will prove that this will be a let's move it to next year or let's as opposed to let's let's be done with it. I mean, it didn't stop being a good play, right? Somebody wanted to one hopes, right? The play is still good. So, you know, even if it doesn't work out, yeah, it's going to be it's going to happen. It will happen. Interesting, because it's that plus I know a lot of my colleagues are also going, what does this change? What plays that if you do after we're out of this will feel bizarre because of the pandemic? Like what plays are you going to go? This doesn't make any sense anymore. And I don't know if we know at the moment. And maybe all of them will just be like, and we're here we go again. Great. But it's an interesting question creatively to go. What are we in the mood for after this? What can we just not stand anymore? I don't know. It's funny. We always say that you're as a as a dramatist, you're a small business person, right? You own your intellectual property and your business is the licensing of that work. It's a very it sounds really reductive and not like we're caring about you as artists. But really, you have to think about each of these pieces of intellectual property and when the market is right for any of them. And so there may be something in your back catalog that you'd shelved for some period of time because nobody was really interested in it. And now seems like a good time. I know Boston Court was talking about they were prepping for a big festival that was around themes of me too. And then thinking, I'm not sure if that's really where we want to go. That doesn't mean they won't return to that eventually. But if Boston Court is thinking, what goes in that slot? And you have something that you feel like, oh, I have a play for this moment. You know, it's entirely possible that people are going to say, you know what, now's a good time for revival of Mr. Burns. This is a show we really want to see right now. And I think that any time that's the great thing about about dramatists is that there's something for every occasion. And not even like canonical stuff, there's new work for every occasion. So I think people should be excited, not excited to lose their work. And this is a quick thing about the people who had work get canceled is that we've been sorting through a lot of the federal response in terms of what can you apply for, you can't apply for unemployment, you're not an employee, et cetera. But if you run your small business in a certain way, if those of you, once you've, once you've written enough work and you have your own LLC maybe, and you're using that as the receptacle for any money that you receive, you may, there may be federal funds available for you as a small business, not as an employee, but as a small business. So for those people who lost that work who had that work canceled, we're happy to talk through and connect them with accountants and lawyers that we've been speaking to, to just say, how can I, how can I, how can I possibly sort of fill this void that is left by that income I was expecting to receive? Yeah, that's a great. I mean, I was, Lynn Nottage was tweeting about some of her canceled productions and being asked for advances back and, and I think it sent a bit of a ripple through the, the writer community going, if they're doing this to Lynn Nottage, then there might be writers out there that, that could have just the rug pulled out from under them in an unfair way. So it's good to know that that's part of a conversation that, that, that writers could have with y'all if they find themselves in that, that position. It's, that's a hard one. Yeah. So a question about MFA's, does the, does the guild have a, any perspective on, on MFA? The question was how helpful is an MFA to playwriting? And I think every person in the theater has a different answer for that. Is there, is that a part of the, I know that you have student memberships, which is one great big bonus. So those students out there join. Yeah. Do you, do you have any perspective on that? Deb, do you want to go first? I mean, you know, like you said, I think that it's going to depend who you talk to. I mean, education is always good, but I, I, and this is just my complete opinion here, like not a guild opinion, but I would tend to think that, you know, get as much education as you can get as much so that you can do the right thing with what you have, but that if you have the creative matter, you know, like they say, the cream rises regardless. And, and I hope you'll have enough confidence in yourself to just continue with or without. But I don't think education and learning from great people, you do some courses with DJI. I don't think any, you know, any of these things are ever going to harm you. You know, are they, are they roadblocks? Do they prevent you? If you don't have it, is it something that was going to prevent you from moving forward? I would tend to think not if they're, not if you really wrote a great play, I feel like great play is going to, it's just going to come out. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of NFAs. I'm not a big fan of how much they can cost, but the time to dedicate to building your skill to writing those really terrible plays, kind of get those out of your system to have the conversations and read the books and see the work that you get to do in an MFA and frankly build a community. Yeah. That's one of the things that has struck so much with me is the people that I went to school with and, and the kind of shows we all got to watch and go, wasn't that terrible? Or like, that was amazing. And find the people who have your same aesthetic and interest. And then that little group starts to form. And so it's now you definitely can do it without an MFA and there's some great success stories. But there are probably more with NFAs and that may just be something that changes honestly if university changes. I mean, if we're all online and we can't see a ton of theater together, it may be a perfect time to kind of go without. But I think, and the guild is wonderful in that way too, because you do have classes and sessions that if you aren't ready to do an MFA, then there's other ways to kind of have that educational opportunity around. Yeah, I think you have to do a cost benefit analysis, which is challenging to do when you're, I think it's harder to do when you're younger. You can feel a lot of pressure to go to grad school as a young artist. There are a lot of undergraduate programs that you that feel you may be feeling you're being funneled into a graduate program. But and graduate programs can be very expensive. And the thing that I don't like is the idea that the debt that you incur as a person pursuing this pursuing a life in this art form, then prevents you from being able to pursue a career in that art form, because you have to get a day job that to pay off the debt. And I think that's the piece that you just you don't want to get stuck in that trap. And I don't I didn't I don't have an MFA. I came up through this sort of like Brooklyn and downtown New York independent theater scene. And it's a different kind of an investment. It, you know, it is still an investment of your time. It is an investment in building a community. It's an investment in developing your aesthetic and failing while there's a relatively low risk. And there's different ways that you can do that. But you're going to have to invest that time in developing your talent and your skill, developing your community. And and grad school, at least gives you the time to be able to do that. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of response and a lot of talking about the work and the why of the work and what you do in your voice. And some of the most amazing people, and that's one of the things that's so cool. Like these people you think, Oh, those are the most successful artists in America. Most of those people are teaching. And so if there's someone whose work you love, do a little googling, and you might find them at a grad school. And and it might be worth like you want to work with Paula Vogel, you want to work with Lynn Nottage, you want to work with Brandon Jacobs Jenkins or Annie Baker. They're in schools. You can do that. You can go like be in their actual class. Yeah, cool. I have a question about publishing, which maybe similar to the grad school, like not an official drama skill position, but y'all are very, very seasoned. So I'm sure you haven't been about this. So the question is about the best way to go to get published. And I would point folks to we had Peter Hagen from drama display service on last week, and we had a whole session about publishing. How do you publish when do you publish, etc. etc. So that will have a lot of answers. But is there kind of a guild? I don't know relationship with publishers contracts with publishing, or is that kind of a different, a different avenue? Well, no, I mean, we will review any contract that a writer comes across in their careers. So that includes publishing agreements. I'm forgetting exactly what the question is about publishing. But like, I mean, do we I mean, what I mean, the question was like the best way to do it. And I think that one of the things to remind folks about publishing is that usually comes after pub production. So if the question was that people don't want to produce plays that are unpublished, but that's the opposite is true of that, certainly for new work. Yeah, no, I wouldn't say that that's true. Yeah, I agree with you on that. Look, sometimes the publisher is going to come, you know, if I always say focus on and this goes for finding an agent and finding a publisher, focus on your work and getting it to where it needs to go. Sometimes it doesn't need to open on Broadway before you publish it, right? Sometimes we're getting it, you know, if it's a high school kind of market show, then maybe you want to get it published sooner than later. So those are all considerations. But I really do believe if you're focusing on the art and the work and creating and getting it out there, that it's going to organically happen. You know, they are always submissions for publishers as well. They have submission guidelines. If you look in our resource directory, you'll see how they want their submissions. But like anything else just going to be, you know, was there buzz around it? What did somebody recommend it? A lot of that it's the same conversation. But I don't think having it not published is I don't think publication is holding anyone back. I agree. You know, I mean, I think and that's again, not to just tell the the resource directory, but getting your play a finalist of this such-and-such contest and had a reading in a workshop here and is worried and had a production that, you know, got a great review or that sold out the run or whatever at this company. Having a bit of a track record for the show one proves that it's ready to be published because people bought tickets, somebody produced it. There's an interest in it. You've worked on it. It now has been through a workshop in a production process, which means all of the rewriting and the like, oh, that monologue is way too long. And all that stuff has kind of been worked out because they don't want to produce or publish a play that hasn't kind of been through the process a little bit. So I think you're totally right. Do the work. Make it the best that you can do. Start bringing people in. Do a reading at your house. Send it to an artistic director or a literary manager. Get that some feedback from them. Submit to a contest. Submit to a workshop and kind of build the play's strength. It's like you have to send the play to school. The play has to grow up for it to be ready to be sent out. And also, you don't need to wait to publish your work. The new play exchange is a really good example of a place where you can actually, you can promote your work to a theater loving audience. We have some cautions about just making sure that you're not just putting up an unprotected PDF there that can be downloaded by anybody. But aside from that, it's a really great resource for connecting with communities and making sure other people are reading work. And it's a good chance for you to read what other people are writing as well. So I do recommend that you don't... Publishers will be there when it's time for you to have a publisher. That's right. Exactly. Same with agents, honestly. Same as agents. Do not waste a lot of time worrying about that piece of the puzzle, I would say. Yeah. I think that's totally right. And a great question from Carrie Booth. Curious if your guests have any specific advice for those of us going after this career later in life versus the younger writers entering the field. So yeah. What do you have about that? I can jump into this one because one of the things that I love about the Guild is that we don't rank people by age. We really do talk about career stage. And so if you're starting out in the theater and you're 17, if you're young Lauren Gunderson, and you're 14 and you're writing your plays, or if you're coming to this as a second career, even a third career, then a lot of the advice that we're going to have for you is going to be the same. And it is really, you do want to find your community. You want to find your audience. You want to find the people you do this work with. I know it starts alone in a room, someplace writing, but it has a life with other people. And finding those people in the early stages of your career, no matter what your age is, is crucial to giving you the momentum that you need to get, propel you forward. That's great. That's great advice. And the truth is that submitting to the O'Neill or whatever new play opportunity, they don't ask how old you are. They don't know how old you are or how young you are or most of these opportunities are they try to get blind submissions, right? Yeah, it's not something you hopefully have to think about as much. But I know it's an issue. I mean, I know that I know I've talked to members who you know, they struggle, but I say just keep going. You got to keep going and following what you're drawn to do. And again, look at those. It's more about the plays that people produce and finding what category you're in, what group, what kind of type of play, so that if you're a woman who's over 60, there's some, I know of theater in my town in the Bay Area called Three Girls Theater that has a ton of their membership is amazing women and a lot of their stories are about women who are 50, 60, 70. And it's beautiful, incredible work. So that's a place where you go, oh, they get me, I get them, I will talk to them. Actually, that's so smart. That is really smart because I think what you're also talking about is joining into community. Yeah. And I think that's what makes it so hard later on because you haven't had 20, gone to school and just know these people for your whole life. And you have to join in and really see what these theaters are doing and connect into them and connect into the guild and the community that you can create that we have that's already built there. Yeah. Yeah. And I think also important to note is the difference between your personal demographic and the audience for your work. Exactly. Yeah. If you have a play that is written where the characters are, you have younger characters, you don't necessarily want to be workshopping that in a community of people like my age. And so some pieces, and that doesn't mean that's the only kind of play you're going to write. Lauren, your great example of this is that you don't write one kind of play for one kind of demographic. So if you have something, your community of writers who support you, maybe people who you feel more comfortable with, but like Carol Churchill is not out here writing shows that take place in retirement homes. You are not your demographic. Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. That's awesome. So we have 10 minutes left. Oh, here we go. Copyright question. Ding, ding, ding. So Allie writes, as a new playwright, I'm curious about the process of copywriting work when submitting to festivals and workshops with a community theater. I don't know if the community theater part matters, but basically like when you have a play, you're starting to submit it. Is there a process of copywriting or yeah, what's the kind of general perspective? I mean, copyright is created once you fix something in a tangible form. So you don't have to panic, right? You've written this play, you're going to own it. That much is clear. But what you do need to do before you start circulating it and sending it around is register it with the U.S. Copyright Office and that you can do. It's copyright.gov and you're going to fill out form PA, Performing Arts, follow the instructions. They have a helpline too that's actually, you have to wait a while to get on with somebody, but they're helpful once you're on. I think it's $35 now and you register your work. Once you've done that part, while the registration won't be complete probably for another couple of months, you're in and that's the date of your registration. So you don't have to panic if you don't have actual paperwork, but it is something you want to do before you start circulating it. From my point of view, obviously, because you're not going to be able to sue anyone for infringement until you've registered your work. That's got to happen first. So, you know, you need to do that now, but you're also creating, you're announcing to the world that this work exists, that you wrote it. It's there on that date. It becomes part of a public sort of index. So, yeah, and you want to do that before you're circulating because once you start circulating, that's when you become vulnerable. So, and you want to be able to put your copyright symbol, which you could do anyway, but beforehand, but that's sort of the process before submitting it, throw that registration in, but you don't have to panic because you are protected already. That is a fabulous question. Since we're closing in on the hour, maybe let's end on a hopeful note if we can. What are y'all looking forward to? What are y'all hopeful about? I mean, as you kind of look around at the changing everyday landscape of our field, what's like making you be like, we're going to be okay? If anything, I'm presuming a lot by asking, but I will say for one, we feel like we're going to be okay because our members, the writers are working. People are out there creating and I think some people feel and it's completely fine to not be writing right now and as at any time, like if this is not the time for you, that's okay, but it is, we're seeing an explosion of creative, innovative new work that is taking place. And so I think there's only reason to be hopeful. And yes, we're going to, this is a really challenging time for our economy. It's a challenging time for public health and there are real things to be concerned about. I think the thing I'm least worried about is that is the future of great writing in this country. I think it's one of the, it's one of the bright spots. And I hope that the access that people are getting to theater right now, the idea that the Apple Family Play, the latest Apple Family Play reached 60,000 people in four days, that the breadth of work that is now available to people like me who didn't grow up in a big theater town. And if I was able to see that, it's so thrilling that we're getting this much more kind of democratic access to theater and I'm thrilled to see where that goes. Yeah, no, on a hopeful note, there's been like three thoughts flew into my head. One is Andrew Lloyd Webber and all of his free streams that he's made available. It just makes me realize how much we need. And it's been so, it's been like a lifeline to know, okay, he's going to do it again. Okay, every week he's going to keep, because we need that. And people need theater. And just watching what has been created during this time, even 24 hour plays, I mean, there is some material coming out there that is just being posted online and it just gets your juices going. And the other part is that we need this. Theater has been around. And I think, I forgot the artistic director at the Guthrie, I think it was, I saw like, yes, he had a Facebook post, I don't know, and he was saying how theater's been around since the time of the realm, like, we need this. This is something that is part of our society. We need to be in a room with people and experience. So all of these things kind of give me hope. And, you know, I know we're going to find a way back safely into the theater as soon as we can. And that there are going to be wonderful things that come out of this time that we're going to get to continue to enjoy now and in the future. So I think we'll be okay, because we have theater to come back to. And certainly the collective trauma that we've all over the world have gone through and are continuing to go through on the other side of that. I think it will be the theater makers and the art makers and the storytellers that help us figure out what the hell that was and who we are now and what we need now. That's the kind of job of writers for several millennia have been that exact job, reminding us of our resilience and our humanity and our togetherness and all of that. So I'm certainly grateful for my colleagues out there and for y'all. So maybe you can tell us, just make sure everybody knows how to find the guild and how to join and all of that as we end. So we have a website and I direct everything to that. Our website was built largely by our director of membership, Emmanuel Wilson, who is our hero and has really been built with members in mind. And so you can go and we have opened up access to it for the next, I think month or so even non-members can sort of get to tool around in there and see what's going on. And it's www.dramatists guild. So it's got that extra s, dramatists, more than one dramatist, dramatists guild.com. And please go and then also give us feedback. If there's things you'd like to see on the site, things you'd like to see change, we are always innovating. And after you're joined, you can talk to any one of us within like what 24 hours? Yeah, we're all good. Then welcome, prepare for the barrage of question. We love it, we love it. Thank you all both so much. This was such a delight. The guild has meant so much to me and my career and I'm thrilled to make hopefully continue that the power of the guilds to the next generation of writers or for folks who are just like, I am in pandemic and I've ridden to play. Look at that. What do I do? So thank you for all that you do and for taking such good care of writers and helping us and answering every manner of question. Well, I think thanks to you and to Hal Brown for making these weekly sessions available. I think it's been a real lifeline for people. And I think it's been inspiring to people who are considering working in this field. So thank you for for doing this and keeping keeping the field alive. Go team theater. We can do it. All right. Thank you so much, Debra. Thank you so much, Tina. Thank you, Guild. And thanks everybody for watching.