 Hello, good evening, everyone. My name is Rani Panoy and I am one of the producers at the producer hub and my pronouns are she, her. I'd like to start with a acknowledgement first of the land and people we're supported by today. I'm personally calling from the lands of the Shikori, Ino, and Tuscarora people, which is colonially known as Durham, North Carolina. StreamYards, the platform that we are using today and which we love, is headquartered in what is now called Tualatin, Oregon, on the traditional lands of the Atvaladi and Kalapuya peoples. We acknowledge the lands the StreamYards resides on because the work that we're creating together now, this past year, and future, that work that we create in a digital platform does not exist in an ether or an imaginary void, but is made possible because of physical land and the indigenous peoples who steward it. And I also want to give out to a shout out to Brown Water Arts who was really part of framing this practice of naming the indigenous peoples whose lands they are stewarding that support our digital platforms. So thank you, Proudwater. I also want to start by sharing that as you might see, we unfortunately do not have ASL right now tonight. Unfortunately, we had planned to have it, but are having a little bit of difficulty reaching our interpreter. So if I wanted to let you all know that in the recording, we're gonna be working definitely to caption and we're gonna also see if we can add ASL as well to that recording as well. So just to let you all know, for those of you who are looking for it. So I'm joined at the Producer Hub by my wonderful producing partner, Sophie Blumberg, who's working behind the scenes tonight. And for those of you joining the first time, the Producer Hub is a connective space. For those working in live performance and we uplift the work of the producer, besides these webinars that are also available on YouTube at any time. We have a wide array of resources on our website, which is producerhub.org. So we encourage you to sign up for our mailing list to stay posted on all our upcoming events. And if you're watching tonight, we're thrilled to see you here. Thank you for sharing your thirsty night with us. And just on a personal note before we dive in, as we all know, hosting requires versatility and flexibility. One of the things that brings me to the lands of the Edda Felati and, or I should say the Shikori, you know, in Tuscarora people, is that I'm here caring for my mother-in-law and there was not really reliable wifi at where she lives. So I'm at a local brewery tonight hosting this webinar. And sometimes that is what producing means. So if you lose me for a minute, I will be back in a few seconds. Our amazing panelists tonight know this. So thank you for rolling with the punches of producing in this time and really excited to dig into it. So tonight we're gonna talk about mentorship. So producing is a bespoke practice, right? Everyone develops their own way of doing it. This makes learning how to be a producer tricky. There's not one book. There's no one way of approaching the work. And in addition to this, many producers often work in isolation from each other, making it challenging to build relationships and create opportunities for peer-to-peer learning. So this is why a lot of folks at every stage of their career turn to mentorship. It's been a big part of my career and a big part of my life and how I'm here running this webinar tonight. So we're really excited to talk to different organizations around the country and individuals who are developing mentorship programs, who have experienced mentorship first hand that are gonna share a bit about their philosophies and thoughts on this. And to help those of you thinking about mentorship, think about what are the questions you may wanna consider when thinking about a program or joining a cohort, no matter where in your practice you are. So with that, I want to, I'm gonna introduce the panel shortly, but first I wanna say please be sure to use the chat throughout if you'd like to ask a question to any of the panelists. We're gonna save the last 10 to 15 minutes for Q&A, but it's great to know in advance what your questions might be so that we can kind of be primed and ready to go at that point. So with that, I'm thrilled to welcome our panelists, Miranda Goh from Theater Producers of Color, Leah Harris from the Theater Leadership Project, Jamil Jude from Kenny Leon's True Colors Theater Company. So if we could get our panelists in the room, that'd be great. Hey everyone, welcome. All right. Yeah, so I'm gonna go ahead and just jump in, but please feel free after I give the kind of first prompt to take a second and introduce yourselves and whatever else you'd like to share with the full group. So our first question tonight, mentorship can be so beneficial for producers in building their practice, that it can be tricky to find that opportunity or tricky to find a good fit. So I'm hoping that each of you can share a little about three things. So A, being the mentorship programs you're affiliated with, B, being what inspired their creation, you know why this mentorship program now, and then third, how you define mentorship because I think it's one of those words that can mean different things to different people. And so Miranda, would you mind starting us off? Yeah, for sure. Hi everyone, Miranda Go, she, her, hers. I'm calling in from the lands of the Narragansett peoples, also known as Providence, Rhode Island. I am the founder of Theater Producers of Color, and that is a brand new organization that just got off the ground earlier this year in December. So the mission of Theater Producers of Color is to create greater access to education, training and mentorship to the next generation of BIPOC producers. And my reason for founding Theater Producers of Color was because as an aspiring lead producer in the commercial world, I found that it was very difficult to, first of all, learn what a producer was and how to become one. There aren't really a lot of formal programs out there that teach you about producing and those that do exist sometimes are really hard to get into, either because of cost or because you need to know someone. So I, so I wanted to address that challenge for folks, historically from underrepresented communities in getting access to those opportunities in professional development. So that's kind of a long-winded backstory, but that was my reason for founding Theater Producers of Color. And our main initiative this year was to launch 10-week Producing 101 course that introduced a group of 25 aspiring producers to the nuts and bolts of commercial producing. So this cohort was made up of folks from all different backgrounds, some folks who have worked directly in the theater, some folks who have never worked formally in the theater, but have always been fans of it and have wanted to find a way to get their foot in the door. And over the course of the 10 weeks, we met with different leaders in the industry, from producers to general managers to attorneys to speak on a different subject. So the idea was that over the course of 10 weeks, this cohort of 25 aspiring producers would kind of learn what it takes to become a commercial producer and how to get their career started. So that has been a really fruitful endeavor, especially since we've been in a shutdown this past year. I think it's one great thing that has come out of the pandemic is that folks have the time and space to kind of focus on ways to improve our industry, that we're seeing a lot of that work from Leah's work and Jamil's work and everyone at the producer hub. But I think in terms of mentorship, what's great about theater producers of color is that a group of really hungry, ambitious and curious emerging producers all of a sudden get introduced to some of the top leaders in our industry and get to hear firsthand about their journeys and their career trajectories and how they approach the craft of producing in their own lives. So I think it has been a really enlightening experience to see how folks have continued to cultivate those relationships and use it for the next step in their careers. I don't know if I missed anything from that three part question, but that's kind of an introduction to theater producers of color. I think you did it. And I mean, I think in the way that you describe theater producers of color, you kind of baked in a lovely definition of mentorship in a way. So I think you did it. Thanks, Rhonda. And Jameel, could I throw it to you next? Yeah, sorry, I have to put my glasses on so I can actually see the mute button. Hey everyone, Jameel Jews. Like Ronnie mentioned earlier, I'm the Artistic Director at True Colors Theater Company in Atlanta, Georgia, what is colonially known as Atlanta, Georgia, but I am zooming in from Atlanta, Muskogee Creek. I use the he series of pronouns. When I think about mentorship, I think about early mentorship for me came through the Alan Lee Hughes Fellowship at Arena Stage where I was really lucky to get my first experience inside of, you know, a regional theater, a predominantly white regional theater. And I recognize that that has impacted and shifted the way that I've moved through the American theater both as a now a leader of a culturally specific and black arts organization, but also prior to that as a person of privilege with that privilege, but still inhabiting a black body. I think that has been a huge aspect of the way I sought mentorship, mostly looking for other people of color who have navigated the same treacherous waters as I have and also the ways in which mentors, regardless of their racial, ethnic identity, the identity writ large have worked with me as being my mentors in some ways, not having a similar cultural experience as cost friction, but also has provided me like opportunities to analyze blind spots. It may be my own way. I love listening to Miranda talk about how the work that she's doing in this mentorship, this peer group for producers of color, like, you know, not only learning the ropes, but also providing like peer-to-peer mentorship. And I think for me that that's probably been the biggest thing that I've experienced right now, especially as a young artistic director. I'm in my second year of artistic leadership. Took over in 2019, August 1st, 2019. So the bulk of my artistic leadership time has been in the pandemic, but I've been really fortunate to have several circles of artistic directors that we've been able to provide some peer-to-peer mentorship. And I think that's where a lot of it has worked. But because of how I have been poured into, I've tried to create a space at True Colors where we are providing more mentorship for young black artists, especially for them to feel like True Colors is a place that they could own as their own. Let me try to stay away from that language, that language of ownership, but that they can feel like they are included inside of the work of that organization and that they have space and a home there. And we've created a couple of early career opportunities and I try as much as I can to avail myself and I know the rest of the staff at True Colors does similarly to avail ourselves to people who would like to know more about it, who just don't know where to start and who weren't, who didn't get that opportunity to get dropped in at the beginning of their career inside of an institution that had been doing that for 60 plus years. I hope that answers your question, Ronnie. And I apologize. No, I think you really took a holistic approach to it, which I really appreciate both in terms of how your experience of mentorship and the way that that has shaped your lens into how you look at the way that True Colors is leading its mentorship programs now, that all wraps up, I think, really beautifully. And just to say, I think that True Colors is very lucky to have you in the, you know, sitting in the lead these last two years in particular. So, yeah, what a year. So, yeah, I wanna throw it over to you next. You could speak a little to those three questions. Yeah, hi everyone. My name is Leah Harris. I use she, her pronouns, calling in from the traditional lands of the Wichita Cato people, known as Dallas, Texas. And I'm the program manager for TTLP, Theater Leadership Project. And I'll kind of start a little bit and talk about kind of the inspiration of it and then go into kind of what it is that we're doing in terms of mentorship. But TTLP was, the idea for TTLP really started with two producers, Barbara Broccoli and Leah Volek. And they came together almost about a year ago in the wake of George Floyd's murder and really started asking questions about how, you know, they can use their, you know, influence and privilege to think about changing leadership on Broadway and changing the systems that, you know, allow leaders to be in positions of power on Broadway and really just thinking about just changing leadership in general on Broadway. And so that idea has been baking over the past year and we officially launched about a month ago, a couple of weeks ago actually, and we are supportive of BIPOC leadership within the commercial space, but specifically we're looking at administering fellowships for black individuals. So our first quarter of fellows will be black individuals working across leadership positions. So we're looking at creative producing, general and company management and stage management. And we're doing that through partnerships for creative producing with the Prince Fellowship out of Columbia and with Black Theater Coalition on general and company management. And our approach at really looking at changing what leadership looks like is through sustained long-term funding and investment in these individuals. So these are three-year fellowships and the idea is by the end of it, it's a lifestyle and a career that they wanna sustain and we're looking at permanent job placement for these individuals. So by 2024, we're hopeful that, you know, that face of leadership will start to look different and just be more reflective of the world that we live in. And I think a huge part of this work since it is a three-year commitment is the mentorship and is the community of support that we have around these fellows. So we have an advisory council that are advisors to our founding producers and myself as the program manager, but also will be mentors to our fellows as well and really tap into their networks and resources. We have advisors that have a myriad of experiences across theater and Broadway and that can really tap into their networks to really make sure that our fellows have a community that they want to, again, sustain in this and sustaining this lifestyle. And so that's something we're really intentional about and really thinking about outside of the work that they're doing. What is it that we're able to provide in terms of support for a community? And what does that mentorship look like and what does that peer-to-peer mentorship look like? Our fellowships, we're only gonna be having about a fairly small number, a manageable number. That way they can really have that, they can have opportunity to build community within themselves. So that's TTLP. The third part of the question, Ronnie, sorry, remind me. Oh yeah, no, my pleasure. Basically, how do you define mentorship? Right, so for me, when I'm thinking about mentorship, I'm thinking about relationships and I'm thinking about the relationships that you're making a commitment to for your growth and your career path. I think one thing that Jamil spoke to earlier that resonates with me is that when I'm seeking mentorships, I really am seeking someone that shares my identity. So someone that is a black woman that I can really, really relate to on that level because I think it's a very specific path that black women have to navigate in theater in general, in all systems. So I really do look for my experience and my identity to be reflected in that. But really for me, it is about cultivating a relationship with someone and really going on a journey with someone and having also someone that holds you accountable and someone that is really invested in your growth. And I've been really fortunate to have people that have really been invested in my growth and that have really helped me along the way. No, that's really beautiful, Leah. Thank you. And actually I wanna kind of dig deeper in the direction you're already going with our next question, which is really what constitutes strong mentorship to you and like what is a good, if this is a question for all of you, like what is a good experience of mentorship look like for you? So I don't know, Leah, if you wanna talk about what some of the amazing mentorship experiences you've had in the past, what makes them so strong? Yeah, I think one thing that has, again, having my identity reflective has been really important, but also I have been, I feel like intentional in the last couple of years of seeking mentorship outside of theater and outside of this discipline, because that has, that I feel like has helped me just become a more well-rounded person and just really thinking about how outside of the work that I'm doing in theater, how I'm nourishing my whole self. But I ultimately think, again, I think for me it goes back to the relationship and the commitment that I'm making not only for myself, but also the relationship that I'm building with my mentor. And someone that has been committed to my growth. And I think the best thing that a mentor has done for me is, and this is so cliche, but has just told me that I could do it and has told me that this is something that I should, that I could absolutely obtain. And I mean, sometimes it really does take someone that sees something in you that you don't even see in yourself, telling you that you can do it to really make you do it. And I think that has been, that has been a huge part of my story of just how I've been able to put myself out there because I've had people that have believed in what I can do and have just been really invested in my growth. So I'm invested in that relationship as well. That's great, Leah. I mean, I really love the relationality that you're really pointing to here that I think a lot of times when we think mentorship program, there's so much focus put on the skills and like this stuff that you're gonna get. But everything you're talking about the, having somebody who believes in you, what's you accountable. I mean, all of that is so relational. So I just wanna uplift that. Miranda, would you like to share some thoughts on that question? Sure. Yeah, I love what you said, Leah. Kind of having that emotional connection to a mentor as well, who is invested in your development and really wants you to succeed, I think first and foremost, if you have that, that makes a great mentor. Thinking about my past mentorship experiences, some have been formal, some have been more informal. And I think that a lot of these programs that exist almost seem transactional at times. We talked about this in our prep call about sometimes there is a job description that comes along with the mentorship. Which can be a good and bad thing. But the mentorship programs that I've really enjoyed have allowed me to be very transparent about what I hope to one day achieve and what my short and long-term goals are in terms of my career. And if I don't yet have those figured out, someone who will help me kind of further define those but some mentorship opportunities that have been great for me, especially at the beginning of my career or those that allowed me to kind of just be a fly in the wall and to be a sponge and just absorb. I think a lot of producing is on the job learning and a lot of times either make it up as you go, as we all know, or we look at the producers in charge and kind of see how they make their decisions, how they lead a room and are kind of a representative for the project. So I think a lot of learning in the producing environment comes from just observing and taking in what you're seeing around you and seeing what's successful and what's not. So I think being able to have access to a producer's mind and how they make their decisions is really invaluable and then kind of more to what Leo was saying as a woman of color coming up through the industry. There weren't a lot of opportunities, unfortunately, for me to receive mentorship from people who looked like me, who shared my identity. But one thing that I really value is getting the opportunity to work with folks who share the same values and kind of mission that I do in my own work. So I think an example of that is when I was first, even thinking about theater and whether I had a role in it, I saw like this fantastic off-Broadway production and I quickly looked at who the producers were. Sorry, that is my mom on FaceTime. But I saw this play off-Broadway that I fell in love with and I looked up who was behind the team and I emailed them and that was my first internship in New York and I think the fact that my reason for reaching out was led by artistry and by kind of the material that I was responding to and that I saw myself in led to a really fruitful mentorship relationship and one that I still kind of look upon today. So I think all of those things make a great mentor, but... That's awesome. Yeah. Now you did it. And actually, bonus for Miranda, I think you also kind of moved into the territory of our next question, which is great because I think that this question and the next one are really closely linked, which is that, you know, and yeah, we did talk about this on the prep call of how mentorship programs can often be paired with or superseded by a job that you have to fill and there can be this tension between learning by doing and being low paid labor. So actually, Jamil, and throwing it over to you, if you wanna, I'd love to hear from you both, you know, what you experience as being strong or good mentorship and also this question about this tension between learning by doing and low paid labor because I think that that can be so much a part of that equation as Miranda kind of just touched on. Yeah, thank you for that. And Miranda, I know the tension of your mom being trying to hit you up in the middle of the event. So please, from all of us, hello, we talk to her a little bit later. I feel like a good mentor checks on you without you having to reach out. You know, I know that's so difficult, especially like, you know, for people when I call myself a mentor, just for me, just to remind myself like, hey, I haven't heard from ex in a long time, I should go reach out. But what I think that's why I think that's valuable is sometimes, you know, you think that especially in the early part of your career that like all the issues that I'm facing are so insignificant, so pointless to somebody that like I can't go to my mentor with this thing because like, you know, they'll laugh at me or they told me a story already how they've already overcome this thing. I don't feel confident that I can go to them with that, right? And then when a mentor just reaches out sometimes, it's just like, oh, hey, this other person who... Oh, did anyone else lose? Oh yeah, you're back, great. I wasn't sure if it was just me. Could you just say the last three seconds? Yeah, my headphone just came out. Let me see if I can switch it. I'm sorry, I'll try to vamp while I can. All right, am I back? Can you hear me? You're back. All right, great. Well, so I think what I'm saying is that like when they reach out to you, when a mentor just reaches out to you out the blue, man, it can just, it can give you a sense of relief. Like, hey, there is somebody else that's advocating for me. There's somebody else that cares about the things that I'm going to. I don't actually have to prejudge myself in the situation that I'm in because there's somebody else who cares and who wants to help guide me through this. And it may be, even if it's not unique to them, it's unique to me. And that can instill you with so much confidence. I think that there is a line to your point, Ronnie, about paid, low-paid labor versus invaluable experience. I think I have worked best when my mentor wasn't also my boss, right? Like, because there isn't the expectation that keeping my mentor happy or keeping my job or one in the same, that I can go to them and talk through the challenges. If your mentor is also your boss and they are the one who is, you know, maybe not creating the best space for you, how do you navigate that? I'll say, you know, I want to give a big shout out to Daniel Proxonical, who was actually my first boss and mentor, Proxonical, P-R-U-K-S-A-R-N-U-K-U-L. For you, interpreter Steve, because it took me a long time to learn how to spell that too. But Daniel actually did a really great job and I feel like he's been a better mentor to me after my time working with him. Not that he wasn't great as a boss, but it was that experience afterwards that really helped grow our relationship and it allowed that mentorship to extend beyond the work that I was doing on, hey, here's a way that you can do it better. Like, hey, here's how you can position yourselves for the things that you have going on for life. Those times where I have felt most challenged in that mentor-menti relationship have been the times where the person that I was looking up to especially in the early parts of my career happened to be people in positions of leadership and them needing me to serve a specific role and my desires extending beyond the limited scope that they envisioned me for. And that's not a fault to them because in a way they have a job to do, they have a theater to run, they have a department to run and they need certain things to happen. But as my skill set changes, as my interests diversify, as I get opportunities from organizations outside of this one that is either paying my bills or them being mentored inside of, like that rub starts to happen. It is hard to cheer you on, cheer me on. I can imagine it's hard to cheer me on in my individual success when that may mean I'm less available to you and your future projects. And you may then have to go out and replace me. That when that starts to rub up against, I think that's where we have found the most interest. And I carry that forward and I try not to put too many mentor-menti relationships with people who are directly reporting to me because it becomes very difficult to cheer for them and wish them all the best while also needing to hold them accountable for any and all work that they're doing in relationship to your company. No, I think that's really, I think you're really onto something with that, that it's, I think in a lot of formal programs, there's kind of an assumption that they're one in the same when the functionality of having a valuable experience and having a mentor relationship doesn't need to necessarily sit right on top of another and can have, there can be really some inherent challenges with that. And all of these conversations about mentorship kind of sitting in a, I mean, the themes that I keep hearing from this conversation is that it's someone who has a similar kind of experience, similar identity and someone that has a real relationship of accountability and ongoing relationship that isn't one-sided. So this kind of is a nice way into the next question, which is, what are some alternatives to formal mentorship programs? Because while I wanna kind of shout from the rooftops about the mentorship programs that we're really lifting up today and encourage everyone who is eligible to apply and take advantage of these opportunities, that's not the only way to get mentorship. And we talked a little in the prep call about how some fellowships can really be perceived as like fast tracks to success or on some kind of ladder. And holding the values of access and of dismantling the systems of oppression that are serving us, there's so many ways to find mentorship in even an unconventional places. So I'm curious if you all have advice for the folks that are listening about if you're, what are some alternatives to formal mentorship programs? And if someone is looking for guidance, where can they turn? And actually, Lee, I'd love to throw it to you first. Yeah, I mean, I kind of touched a little bit on this earlier, but I think it's really important wherever you are to look at pillars in your community and think about where in your kind of day-to-day that you interact with people, whether it's in a library or wherever that is in your community that you can really just start to have conversations, just start to build a relationship with someone. I think, I feel like as I'm getting older and ascending in different ways in my career and people are starting to come to me as wanting to have what I'm getting as like mentorship but not really knowing how to have that language. It really is just coming out as just conversations about, can you tell me what you did like six months after graduation or can you talk to me about your first job? And can you talk to me about the first time you didn't get the job? And it's like, those are kind of the things that I'm starting, that people are starting to invite me into conversations about. And those aren't necessarily just people that are in theater, in the work with me, right? And so, I don't know. And it's something that I'm also trying to do as well for myself of just, again, like I said, finding outside of the arts and theater. And I get that that's why we're here, but I think it's also important to talk about, especially as a person of color and as a black woman, I just know that I have to be whole to be able to do this work and to hold all these things. And sometimes the best way that I can fill my cup is to seek outside of what I'm already in every day, you know? And so, yeah, I would just, I would really just think about who in your communities, who in your circles are people that you can just start having conversations with and organically kind of build some sort of rapport with and see where it goes from there, you know? And I think, again, as someone that is, I feel like that's coming to me in certain ways right now and over the last year and something that I'm also seeking, I'm trying to kind of balance all of that. So that's what I would say to that. No, that's great. And my sense is too, is that there can sometimes be a perceived fear of, well, if I don't have some kind of deep relationship already with someone that I can't broach of, you know, what would it be like to be in conversation? And is this something that would be interesting to you? And I'm always amazed that there is so much more goodwill than you often, you know, might presuppose as someone who's earlier or younger in the field that folks really do want to be helpful, I think fundamentally. So it can seem a little strange, I think to think outside the box, but I think you're right on that you have to, you know, to be okay with asking the questions and doing that, that reaching out, you know? There's a real, an art to asking. And yeah, and Miranda and Jamil, anything you'd like to add or I can keep going, but I wanted to give you space to jump in if you'd like on that one. Yeah, I just want to underscore like how crucial I think it is just to take a risk and email somebody. The worst thing that you can get is a no. And the best thing you can get is someone who can be a future mentor. I know that my email gets slammed sometimes, but oftentimes, you know, like a persistent person or you know, you get me on a good time and say, hey, like maybe, especially with the pandemic, so many like, hey, I'm a student here and I want to talk to somebody and I've been able to just, you know, have a 30 minute or an hour long conversation with people. I think those things work. Also, I think let's take advantage of the tools that we have, right? Like what are our social media opportunities? Instagram, Facebook groups where those things can take place. I think oftentimes we are made to feel as if we are undeserving or that it is inappropriate somehow. Like, hey, maybe I'm, what I'm not asking for is unsolicited scripts, right? You know, or like directing resumes. Like that feels like a different thing than when you're asking for genuine advice or guidance or something like that. And I think some of that is just about what Leah said and maybe Ron, you spoke to it too. There's an art to the ask of guidance and mentorship and leader, you know, and seeking counsel. And I think you get better at it the more you do it, but there shouldn't be anything that really stops you. But maybe you don't need to be mentored by Oscar Eustis because there's somebody who is extremely talented in your community that might be a little bit more accessible to you and be able to provide you more specific information about where you are in your circumstance. So yeah, sure, shoot an email to Oscar. If he responds to yours, ask him to respond to mine. But I keep you, if you, you know, don't want to go just that route, I think there are so many other opportunities for you to ask people. Yeah, go ahead, Miranda. I completely agree. I think especially since it is so hard to get a formal education in producing, I'm a total fan of doing the cold email and making relationships that way. I've spoken to someone on the subway who was holding a play below the show I just saw and she ended up being in the midst of lead producing her own stuff. So like that is one way that I've cultivated a relationship. But I think it's gravitating towards people who are doing what you want to be doing or are going through the same thing as you are. I think there is an issue of a lack of transparency in our industry about how certain things work and what really it takes to be a successful producer in the commercial theater industry. So when I think about what has been helpful for me, I think, Jamil, you brought up peer to peer mentorship. I'm a big fan of peer to peer mentorship. You know, when you're looking at different opportunities, who can you lean on to say, I'm looking at this job opportunity. Do you know anything about the company? What's it like to work for this person? One of my mentors has more than once said, I think the pay is not good enough, but I think you're gonna be working too much and it's too low. And I'm like, you're right, but so people who are willing to be transparent with you and kind of be real with you, I think is important. And especially as producers, when you're constantly learning new things every day, someone who you feel like you can send an email to or a text to and say something is happening in the production, what would you do if you were in this position? So that's what my advice would be. No, this is amazing advice. I love it. And these conversations are making me harken back to a lot of conversations I've had with like, no, don't take that job. That salary is terrible. You know, it's really incredible to have someone who is keeping their eye out for you in the industry because it can be so hard to know what a good next step is because there is no one right path, especially for producing and there's so many decisions to make about where to put your time. So we have, I wanna encourage folks to drop any questions in the chat. I'm gonna just keep going until we get some questions popping in. So please don't be shy folks in the chat. What I would love to ask, I mean, I guess speaking about choices is, you know, we talked a little about how to find a mentor and about doing that outreach. But, you know, how would you recommend young or new producers assess what kind of mentorship opportunity is right for them, you know, at an early stage in their career? I mean, especially for BIPOC producers, you know, what are some of the questions that folks should be asking themselves because I think we all know that there is, not every opportunity is gonna be right for everyone. And yeah, I'm curious, Randa, if I can throw that question to you first. Sure. I think a good question to ask yourself is what kind of leader you want to eventually grow into? Again, I think so much of producing is learning by doing and observing what makes a particular producer successful or not successful. So for me, I've always tried to attach myself to those who share the same taste with me but also the same personal values because frankly, that's not always the case. It's more often not the case. So I think when you are looking at, whether it's a formal program or looking at a new job opportunity, looking to see who you'll really be spending time with and learning from because you absorb it, whether you like it or not. And that's kind of how you take what you need to learn from that experience. So I think when you're looking at different opportunities really finding those who share the same values as you do. Yeah, right on. And Jamila, I might ask you if you're willing to speak a little about the different kinds of pathways that you've experienced in your own life in terms of this. There is as much as we hope that there isn't the sense of the predominantly white institution, PWI path, the leaders of color, the path. There are ways that those paths intersect and ways that they don't. So for younger folks or folks new to producing, I'm curious if you have thoughts specifically in relationship to that part of your experience. Yeah, thanks for that, Ronnie. Yeah, so I perpetually felt like I had been playing catch up, right? Like not really studying theater in college made me when I got to the professional theater world like, hey, I had to play catch up. And even now as a leader of a black theater company, like I felt like there was a little bit of catch up that I had to play because my early experiences were by mentors of color inside predominantly white institutions. What I believe, well, let me say that better. Let me say it differently. What I don't want to see is more producers early career administrators, artists feeling like aligning themselves with a predominantly white institution is the only way to be successful. I say that because having looked back on the first 10 years of my career, 13 years now, I feel that there are several ways in which the indoctrination that I experienced there failed me. You know, I spoke recently about how I was made to believe something that was untrue about the leaders inside of these institutions or about the way that change happens, that change can only happen slowly and that we can only let a certain number of people in because audiences wouldn't be ready for that type of transformation in the audiences. Like there's a lot that people of color are BIPOC people, individuals are asked to assume as the truth about the experience inside of predominantly white institutions that makes them different producers. I was one type of producer when I felt like my job was making space for BIPOC artists and stories inside of predominantly white institutions to the first time when I was at True Colors and I was invited on stage and there's 320 plus black people here inside the audience to hear our story. Like I don't have to produce in that old way anymore because the old way was untrue. Oh, I was fighting for 50 seats, a 10th of the audience, you know, a small percentage of the audience. So we're like, oh no, it's the overwhelming majority of the audience and they're gonna be here every night and it's not just because the show fits any four criterion that we were made to believe inside of these other institutions. This is the long-winded way of saying as young producers, especially young BIPOC producers, I wanna encourage them that there is a mode of being, a way of being that you may have been born with and raised with and the early experiences have been needed in you through your own baking process. Try not to go far with that metaphor because I'll get lost as a non-baker but oftentimes those initial instincts get coached out of us. We are coached to be less loud, less informal, frame our emails up in a specific way that actually rents antithetical to the way in which our community wants to receive the art that we're making. So think about the space you're being welcomed in and what they want to teach you if that aligns with who you are on the inside or if you're being asked to assume a different personhood in order to survive in that environment, when that environment is definitely not, has not proven that it is built for our success. No, Chamele, thank you for saying the thing and I appreciate all of your truth and vulnerability in this discussion because that's, I feel like that's so a presence and something that just never gets talked about. So just thank you for sharing that. And I think I wanna kind of bring that into our last question for tonight, which is, we've so far tonight talked about mentorship as a relationship, we've talked about it as a way of aligning your values with folks who can be in a relationship with you over time and to be the producer you wanna be, about a way of being in terms of a, who you're in relationship with and the behaviors and that there's choices, that there's opportunities, there's choices and there's agency in this mentorship conversation and I've been really inspired to hear your thoughts around that. What I'd like to ask is the final question is, how do you all think mentorship programs can prepare the next generation, not only to exist in the field as it is now, but to make the bold shifts we need in the face of challenges, such as white supremacy, climate crisis, future pandemic. And of course, not every producer, not every theater is gonna handle all of those challenges. That's not the remit for every single producer, but I think it's fair to say that the world we're in now is not the one we wanna be in. And how is mentorship in your mind a part of that and how is mentorship, how is the challenge of mentorship kind of higher or different or needs to be looked at differently in light of those challenges. And Leah, I'll start with you. Yeah, I think it's important to name that there have been a lot of mentorship programs that have intentionally excluded folks of color, right? And so just looking at that system is really important. I feel like I've been close enough to programs that, I just think examining and just starting from a place of meeting people where they're at, because I think that there is a lot of legacy and history of certain programs get brought in and there's a certain level of criteria or understanding of what the ideal candidate of this fellowship or program or whatever that is looks like. And I think at least as a first step, just examining that of just like what an ideal candidate is and what kind of things you're centering in that criteria and how those are exclusionary practices that exclude black and brown folks. But I think like as just as a starting point, it is really about meeting people where they're at and understanding that if people are coming into a mentorship program, you have to account for their growth and you have to account for the fact that they're going to evolve and change. And I feel like I know people that have been through programs and I've been adjacent to programs where I feel like people have felt like they haven't been met where they're at, right? And that they're the person that they are entering that program hasn't really been honored. And so the growth gets a little stifled. And I think ultimately you want to step out of a program and be able to look back and say and speak highly of the experience, right? And acknowledge that there are struggles and whatever else, but you want to be able to say like because of this time, this experience, this commitment, I'm better in this way. But all that to say, I personally believe that like a first step is really just examining what it is you're centering in terms of, you know, how you get into these programs, what this ideal candidate is, but also really meeting people where they're at at the moment and accounting for their growth moving forward. That's great, Leah, thanks so much. I think that's right on in so many ways. Miranda, do you want to jump in next? Sure. It's a good question that our team behind theater producers of color has been trying to think about lately. I think a large part of mentorship is education, but the question is, how do you address educating this next generation of producers while acknowledging that some of what we're teaching has not historically been equitable or inclusive and that some of these systems are in fact kind of broken. So within theater producers of color, we're trying to hold space for conversations to occur that kind of challenge what has historically been the precedent and kind of open the dialogue to encourage thoughts behind how we can disrupt those systems in place. So that's one thing that we've learned through theater producers of color. You know, it's definitely the priority is to equip our cohort with the nuts and bolts of commercial producing and to give them the tools that they need to get to the next step in their careers but also making sure that we have space to kind of challenge those things. So that's one thing and I forgot the other thing I was gonna say, it's getting late. If you think of it, we'll come back to you, no worries. And Jamil, over to you. Yeah, I'm just thankful for what has already been said. And I really think it's about this idea of seeking and sharing, right? Like I think for the current generation of leaders, well, the people who currently hold leadership positions because that's a multi-generational thing. What we can do is that we can share out the lessons that we've learned, right? Like events like this where providing, we can create the platforms to share out what we know but I think it's also about seeking what else is out there because, hey, we may not know how to apply it but if we go out there and seek it, if we are sharing what we know and we go out there and seek out what's best here, it's like, I can take this cog here and then I can say like, hey, y'all, in the past we have done with things that look like this, this way. I'm now giving it to you and say like, hey, here's what it is. And maybe you didn't know that there was a summit of other artists that were finding it out and maybe I received an email that said, hey, there is an event happening in two weeks sending that out to the next generation, to all of the mentees sharing it out on your social media platform and things like that by sharing what you have found out there in the world and how you're just like putting people into place. I personally believe that like if given space opportunity resources, the chance to connect and the chance to breathe and think that they're not fighting for survival gigs that the next generation actually will be able to figure it out. So what is that we can do? We can make sure that jobs even if they are entry level jobs are paid fairly we can make sure that if we only can pay certain amount that we make that commiserate with the amount of time that we are requiring for people so they actually get some experimental time. And if we are providing people with the resources to connections, the information that we allow them to draw their own conclusions because it is through their new systems of thinking that are different from the ways our brains have been wired and systems, system approaches that they'll be able to address some of the newer issues. And I think there's so many revolutionary things that are already happening that we need to acknowledge and hold on to, right? Like I know that there is a lot of Scuttlebutt about the we see you at American theater but like the fact that that thing is being mentioned in every single article that comes out about change and revolution about the American theater says something. So let's not be so quick to dismiss some of the changes like the fact that Ronnie that it is practice of producers help to acknowledge for land acknowledgements, right? And that becomes something that we do more and putting our pronoun usage. Like these things like, well, let's not gloss over them. Let's just build on them. And I think we're doing the right things by putting people in place. And I think we can further lean into that by providing them more resources, be it pay, be it platforms or whatever because they'll start to draw new systems and new connections on the fertile earth. I believe we're giving them fertile earth that's out there. Well, that's amazing. Thank you so much, Jamil. And since we're at time, I'll go ahead and say, thank you so much to the three of you. And did you know this point about sharing and sharing your knowledge? Thank you for sharing the three of you for sharing your information tonight. I'm really deeply moved and just I can't say how much I believe in all of the efforts that you're doing and the places in the field where you're looking to make change, I think it matters so much. And I appreciate you being visible to the folks that are watching this to kind of see what the face of leadership, look, these three faces are pretty stunning to me. So thank you so much for your time and for your expertise tonight. So what I would like to say in closing in addition to that, thank you. Oh, and I love that comment. Yes. Thank you, Pepper. So what I wanna encourage in the spirit of thinking about resources is that the producer hub does have a free series of like a database of resources for folks at any point in their producing practice from, you know, books to read, articles. We have a list of anti-racism and decolonizing resources, a list of grants. So if you're looking for a place to build your own producing practice, it's there, it's free. Reach out to us at producer hub if there are other webinars or other resources that you need. We're really wanting to be receptive to what the needs are of producers in this moment. So that's producerhub.org. And please join our mailing list to hear about future webinars. And with that, thank you again to our amazing panelists and have a good night, everyone. Thank you.