 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is the new convert to the power of Lumeneth realm lords. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends. He has his own strange creature from another realm there Yeah, he's not small anymore It's clearly very excited to be in your lap right now. Yes Also joining us good painter elf man now. He that's right One of the great proponents of the Lumeneth for the longest time Mr. Martin Orlando. We'll go to have it back on the show buddy. How you doing tonight? It's an honor to be here Thank you for having me Yes, those who had seven minutes You win that is in fact how late Tom was today. So congratulations to the seven-minute pool You win congratulations. Well done. Well done. It was it was we got double whammy to buy Tom tonight who had both Stuff he was waiting on his wife and then had technical issues. So it was a real real good time But anyway, it's just piled right up. Yes That's that's the quality that we promise you if you tune in every week every week This is the kind of quality we'll deliver We're gonna be talking about Lumeneth realm or tonight. Oh my goodness. Do we have a show for you tonight? I am excited. Don't forget if you're watching at any point. You like this like maybe you like Tom's dog It's cute hit the like button. It's great. It helps people find the show. So but first off Let's of course start with the news Tom So how about that? That candles. Yeah, it's a it's a this is now. We're back to a death thing. This is gonna be a vampire thing Probably maybe like a new centerpiece thing Well, you know, like maybe this is a piece of their centerpiece Does that make sense? Well, what do you think Martin? So I was I'm pulling it up on so I can see the chat and everything. Oh, yeah So I said so I said it's like a checklist like on what we do in the shadows. There's a ghost checklist So you got your candles. Yes, you got your your your smoke slash ectoplasm trail Sculpted in hard plastic, of course, and you got and you got your your angular Possibly ancient candelabra. Yes, you got ghosts. I agree. This is definitely a death thing We are back to AOS here Unusual that you have All the flames the candles being that melty they did they're doing a nice job. They're really upping their candle sculpting candelabra flame game Totally agree and this is night haunt. I don't know how you see anything else, but night on here We know that a night haunt hero is coming. Yeah, true This is night on. Okay. All right. I could be completely wrong and I would accept that as well Sure, but I'm pretty sure this is a night haunt. Yeah, I love we got all these it's gonna go to the next news item, too We've got all these like single figures coming that I want to know when we're getting them like Gardis and the new Night haunt guy and what we're about to talk about which is the next news item Oh, man, let's talk about them witch hunters. Boom. Let's talk about those witch hunters So we're actually gonna start on him because he was the first one spoiled, but it's a father daughter team Tom tell us about why you're excited about the witch hunter squad It's because in the article they're like from the order of azir and I was like that's what I want to hear Sure, that's the army that I won. I mean, I'm not gonna lie I've longed for the order of azir witch hunter Warrior priestic extremists army That's why I'm excited, but they're amazing looking like this father daughter mix like I just Yeah, so obviously And they literally look like they've walked in off the streets of more time They're great No doubts. I continue to be not sure about the team's ability to paint female faces I've said before that I feel like the team should watch some makeup contouring videos and I stand behind that opinion Yeah They like I don't think she actually has a weird face I think that the paint is accentuating it in a weird way, but anyways Martin. What do you think of these two? Yeah, just to touch on that last point I think she's supposed to be much like much younger like me like late to late teens And I think the sculptors tried to go for a look that maybe the painters couldn't quite Like the heavy metal style leads to a very particular way of how the faint is the the faces are painted. It's almost like Not quite self-shading like where you get sort of like that newer anime style like You have two tones of color and then you have the hard outline where shadows might otherwise be which I think tends to lead to the Like the just the disconnect that you might have we're reading faces Yeah, this doesn't have enough softness under eyes color over eyes to separate it Yeah, like though this this paint line on her cheek is over accentuated this like these These have a name, but like whatever this is is like way too dark I mean it's like if I pull it down my face down like that. It's like that level of shadow. She's got But but otherwise like I don't know how we're getting out of well I mean shipping schedules and and everything like notwithstanding. I don't know how we get out of the next 12 months I'll say it that way without an order of a zero army I hope they are the sort of spiritual successor to Bretonnia that OBR is to Tomb Kings after a fact that's just gonna be the stormcast I'm betting on the Bretonian stormcasts That's too much of a slam dunk and it would look like the original art that was commissioned for what storm yeah Yeah, I mean, but what you could actually have is you could have a mixed human the stormcast army With the storm cast being the more nightly, right? Yeah, and then humans being Like order of a zero Correct. We don't need an order of a zero army like I do not think we're gonna get a new book You know, I don't money on the table. You're not gonna see a battle tome order of easier. Sorry. Yeah Yeah, it'll get added to it'll probably get added to cities. Yes. It'll be a sub faction in cities like Like the Darkling covens keyword or what I had like had this whole I had this whole thing planned out actually like there's like so much for that Then I was like, well, what if you add what if you added like Camelot style pageantry to sub factions that have like You see you mix sort of that that that that Merlin nights of the round table vibe with Van Helsing So instead of having your your rather Heaven and Hell sort of palette you add back in that that nightly regalia Into into your your which because everything in Warhammer is ultimately intended to have that Color-coded pageantry because it's the agency of the of the hobbyist to paint however they want Sure. So you want to create your factions with this ability to be as colorful as possible If if all of the kits that are part of the order of easier end up not really deviating too much from this 40k inquisition or or a Mordheim witch hunter vibe, which kind of has a limited color palette. Then yeah, it's not getting its own book Yeah, I mean exactly the way to do this is real simple, okay? It's a new city. It's called the order of azir is the city and they're from azir Okay, and like that's where they're from They're the representative of that and of course they can have one in four storm cast like normal In fact, maybe they can go farther like it could you could even see it where they're like two and four or something Like that can be storm cast right half your army. Yeah by count could be storm cast and You know, it'd be that easy to do this kind of thing and would they roll out new models? Sure You could see some new models for it to be easy. There's lots of there's lots of stuff like this You can do you can have some relaunched warrior priests. You can have some relaunched You know additional you've got these new witch hunters. You could have a flagellant type You could have other types of you know pseudo religious figures. Yeah, right Yeah, like the altars and the warrior priests and all that stuff Yeah, we've lost all that and so all that kind of gets rolled into its own faction and man That'll sell like and you can have a sister's a sigmar style aspect to it and it'd be great Yeah, yeah, like exactly Simple and it doesn't need to be like the Inquisition where it's I Mean it would have the same Generic vibe that is to say they're there to hunt down enemies, but like part of the thing of the Inquisition is there they're not a very They're not a very heroic group of people like I know everybody loves Eisenhorn and stuff, right? But they're all pretty terrible people Okay, I mean they get the job done. Let's be honest Whereas this well, I'm saying in 40k whereas in this you could actually have them be heroes, right? Like one of the great things about ages sigmar is that we actually can't have heroes that doesn't mean they need to be perfect They can sell out flaws flawed heroes are still heroes Right, and they would be the perfect mantle for that like humanity's best against monsters, right? Yeah fighting with these like super soldiers on their side Like look when you've got your Avengers you've got Thor But you also have Black Widow and Hawkeye, and that's fine. You need the whole team What is it like the Asians to Shields? Yeah, yeah, exactly Yeah, they are Azir's agents of Azir Yeah, this is this is this is a slam dunk folks slam dunk. Yeah, I love both these very excited to get both of these That is a heck of a crossbow They're cool. I'm sure their rules in a OS will be terrible. Okay. Hey, hey, you shut your mouth I have hope because they're in broken realms that they're gonna be good Well based on the witch hunter we're about to talk about in their aOS rules I am not sure that that's an act that hope is founded on anything. I Mean, it's it's specialist games though, right? It's a different division It's like force world getting worse roles like their war scrolls, but Are they? Continue Your next news item Tom hit me what we got Uh Well, it's the vampire war band pre-orders this week That's the next one, but that's not what you wanted to do. Let's do scrolls and points for units in per city. Yeah, they're all that is Some of them don't even have a book keyword, they're just death war scrolls like so they clearly like waiting for Something else to happen. Yeah, let's break this into two categories broadly like this show isn't about discussing the first city war scrolls But let's just break this broadly into two categories. Okay, let's talk the good guys and the bad guys simple enough framing Okay, sure the good guys All about a hundred or 110 points. I shouldn't have said they're all bad That was hyperbole the KO dude is actually interesting because he's both a skyfarer and a marine and has actually a pretty cool unique Ability to like shoot a poster and then it can't go away from him. So the KO guy. I think is actually pretty cool Right, yeah, I'm gonna stick him in a a I'm a gun hauler, okay I'm done hauler with the collapsible thing apartment. I'm gonna teleport it and I'm gonna be like how you ain't going to your Archeon You have to kill me first. Yeah, I'll do that. He'll do that. That's fine, but that'll hold him for a turn Absolutely just keeping Archeon out of the game like you joke But keeping Archeon out of the game and some of these armies for even one turn would basically mean those lists to lose the game Like yeah, because he's not an objective Yeah, then then they lose because oftentimes those like Archeon lists tend to be so centered on him Just kicking teeth every single round that they often don't score what they need to win until like round four or five So if you just literally stop him from going somewhere for a turn it can be the game So no the KO dude is good This ends the list Everybody else is like whatever So let's not yeah, I mean I think that saying it's bad. I don't think capture is actually the issue You're right, and I use you said it elsewhere. The issue is it's boring. Correct Like the tech and which is worse than being bad. Yes, because it's just uninteresting Yeah, and it could have just been if some lorem text on so many of the units. I think it's now now Here's what could save him. Okay. Here's what could save all of them if you gave me rules For Olfenkarn the city and made it a city of Sigmar Sure like post redemption like if these heroes win at the end of cursed city And we get a city of Olfenkarn, but like death is still there and maybe like somehow you can have one in four death units Or something or I don't know whatever something interesting like then you have Right like I could I could see playing these I like that the problem is that most of the scrolls are just like not only are they not Competitive which is fine like whatever that's I admit. I was being jokie right that was specifically for Doug I hope you watch this back. I'm talking to you Doug Since I know that I'll drive him completely insane that I said it that way No, I agree with you that the issue is there There's nothing they could have done interesting stuff give you a simple example because we kind of talked about this a little bit when you and I were chatting right one of the leaders could have been like You know gave a bonus to flagellants or something like plus one to head for flagellants that are within a radius round Whatever right they could have had that doesn't make That doesn't make flagellants good. No, but it creates a design thread that will pull you that direction, right? And makes me want to go. Yeah, I kind of want to run those cool because if you already like flagellants You're like neat now. I want to use this guy. I've got a cool way to buff my flagellants I make and like cities is really a power pair book Right, that's why I'm pushing that because when you look at the way cities is constructed It's like do you like elves cool take some elves and then take the guy on dragon who leads the elves those go together Well, do you like dwarves cool take the take the dwarves you like and the rune lord that makes those dwarves better, right? Like that's the nature of the city's book. It's just this power pair book Yeah, if I may just add and this is just a question like I don't know if anyone who can say has an answer Like I didn't really read any of the scrolls after I saw the pitch battle profile Well, you have to take the entire new of the bad guys that aren't bodies as one pitch battle profile now at first I thought It's sometimes these pitch battle profiles are based on the spruces you can buy like the boxes Sure, and I was looking inside the box like from unboxing that he is I don't I don't own the box and it's like well that I guess that makes sense because all of the hero spruces are kind of on their own So for tower was like that you had the individual ones, which is why they were able to be sold individually later and that was true except for the fact that Radicar is his own the sprue. Yeah, and I'm like, so I no longer understand why this decision was made and I Have a guess but continue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm almost done and the other thing was it's like I looked at the key words So it's like, okay, the zombies and the skeletons don't have updates in them updates are probably coming in the soul like battle tone That's fine, but the other ones they just have the GA death keyword. They don't have a soul light Or specifically like they don't have the lesions of great lords as the key word is what I'm looking for Yeah, so it's like I don't understand the purpose of Them having these rules Now war cries another another thing like and I'm sure that they will not like you can't take them all as one set in war cry So there might be where you get more longevity out of these models anyway, but but I Really would have preferred if you could have taken some of the stuff piecemeal because that's what most people are going to do Anyway, sure, so let's let me touch on the death side now So like I said with the order site, I feel that the missed opportunity wasn't to make them competitive I honestly don't want them to be so because I wouldn't want to see all these weird heroes locked away in a very expensive box Suddenly be like the hottest new thing you have to find that's not gonna help the secondary market any no issues there I would have liked to see them try to make other older less used units interesting through fun synergies and stuff like that For one hero like have them all do different things or interact with troops It's just kind of an interesting way because then people who do like that again, there's no competitive breaking to that It's not driving the market crazy. No one's out all we all got to get You know gels and Derek or whatever, you know, like that's not what it's what's happening But it allows for people who really want to have a cool force to have a cool force So that's order the death side. I think the answer is much simpler They wrote this stuff before the soul like Raven Lord's book was finished because originally these were supposed to come out Way not so close to each other like this this box was supposed to release in like October of last year or something like that. Yeah, right? Yeah, so it's way off schedule and Clearly there was meant to be more distance in between this and soul like grave lords So they just use the old scrolls It's the old existing scrolls and they were like well rather than worry about Trying to figure out how these things should be pointed or will fit in their current form or whatever Into the book where they're gonna basically fit into legions right now. That's where you would use them They're just like we'll just put one big price on them That'll dissuade their sort of use right now in a book. We're all about in a book We're literally about to throw in the trash anyways Right keep it. Yeah, keep it to a cursed city and then we'll be a new we'll get new points and new new scrolls in a month But so the two things I would add is this the first is that I think that they are I I Disagree with you about the heroes Because they're on their own sprues. They could have been released separately like the other silver tower heroes were sure like so If they were written with like rules that people wanted they have the freedom to actually release them in their own plan packs Yeah, well, I for a curse study. They're actually not they're a different color plastic, but they're on two sprues Oh, are they? Yeah, so Yeah That doesn't mean now Interesting that doesn't mean they couldn't put out a box of all the heroes Here is a little car the heroes of Wolf and Carn box could come out and be a single screw box like it could be done Okay, so yes, of course. They could release them of course. They could I'm just saying they're not going to release them Individually right after the box and if these rules made them real super sweet and suddenly hyper competitive It just wouldn't have been a good situation, especially when the production isn't keeping up right now I agree and actually I think that that's why we got the clustering of all the death units together My theory is that? They couldn't point they couldn't effectively point to vampire spawn at Fort or three vampire spawn at 40 points or wherever they would need to be here with without breaking list building you know if he had suddenly like The minimum cost for many armies was like in that like 80 to 100 point range sometimes it goes low 60 But very rarely You know, they couldn't point those things at 80 points because they're really not worth that and So if they did them at 40 points suddenly like they're now competing with the spare command point or endless spells And they could really find themselves in a position where they're essential to a lot of death lists Because they're just the that extra 40 points that you can throw in there And the reality is is that they don't want to force that and I think that that's a wise decision And so the way you dissuade that is you just lump them in with other stuff is one big take Yeah, I mean all in all like this isn't the point of the show So I don't want to go down this rabbit hole sure bar, but but here's what I'll close with my answer would be I agree with everything you said Tom, but We know they're like by all accounts. Let me say it this way We're getting a new zombie scroll in soul by grave lords getting a new skeleton scroll in slopes soul by grave lords Many of these leaders and stuff and units will show up in soul by grave lords And so we'll probably have a new scroll and in that we'll probably have their own individual Like their own individual prices to be taken alone, right? I doubt they'll keep them all grouped as one massive 680 point group in there Plus then we'll be months on from Kerr City and at some point They probably will do like the heroes of Ulf and Karn box or the villains of Ulf and Karn box Especially if we eventually get a city of Ulf and Karn release somehow, right? If that shows up in a later broken realms book then of course the box They would release with that like if broken realms for has Ulf and Karn redeemed or something or whatever right then All of a sudden you're gonna get that the box release that comes with that is gonna be like the heroes of Ulf and Karn Kenra, can we just pause for a moment and reflect on the reality that a Year and a half ago a year ago We were Pontificating about the desire that man. They should just release cities for every realm sure and now we're getting them Yeah, it's great and like we're getting that folks like let's celebrate that we have a death city now Ulf and Karn we have a high city from broken realms like it's gold man Like I sure I couldn't have asked for something more amazing. Yeah, we have another a new oxy city and a new and I Realm of shadow city. Yes So yeah, right on it just went all the way down And I say keep the train rolling more cities keep it keep it going. It's an endless expansion All right, what else speaking of that? I'll just hit another news item real quick Well, we're on the sure the other cursed city thing because I know this is in there is they also publish free rules for a war cry campaign Using the the cursed city stuff, which is great. Just put out the PDF They they said here you go. You want to run a campaign with your your cursed city stuff Here's the rules for work. I have a good time. I love when they do stuff like this I love when they add other rules to allow us to use our toys in more ways a plus work there Thank you for putting that together. I don't I don't it was at Sam who put that all together. I'm not sure But whomever was great stuff great deeply job, Sam. Yeah, yeah, if that was them Whomever was responsible a plus work. Please keep doing that Love it Other news as I mentioned, we have the vampire warband pre-orders dropping this week and that is exciting Oh my god, those guys are beautiful And I know they're like already people are just like, you know that it there is no speaking of things not having enough copies There is No way they will have enough copies of that vampire underworlds or man This will be like the big that like the best-selling underworlds warband of all time You mean are not vampire it's warband. Yeah, that one I mean for vampire lords in a box vampire warband I'm turning that into two separate projects on its own. Yeah, of course you are. Yeah, that makes total sense. Yeah, totally It is it is yeah, it's a kid bashers dream. You can you can get so much So much mileage will be get out of that box. I will not be surprised if it shows up in Like aos 28 pages The 40k equivalent stuff. Yeah, it's just everything you could want is in there There is no way that any of bat hair vampire lady sells Okay Like you know, I'm talking about like the new vampire lord that's coming vampire bat hair lady Okay, I know all about vampire bat lady. Why in the universe of all that is war hammer Would you be like well? I could use vampire bat hair lady. Who's fine. Like she's fine. Okay She's fine. Yeah Or I could use one of these four like ultra bad asses Like it is inconceivable to be that you would make that choice. I just I I cannot get it. Uh, but I can't I can't wait for their vampire palooza war scroll or it's four vampire lords for 400 plus points That's one pitch battle profile. You'll be talking about that next week. There you go. Can't wait Yeah, I I agree with goobs who said bat hair lady needed to come out first. Yes Absolutely, you don't you don't you don't it's like It's like an opening act versus the main band Right, like you don't you don't have the rolling stones come on stage and open for like your your local dad rock band That's not how it works. It's got to be the other way around What why do you got a hate on bat lady bands? I don't hate on her as I said very clearly She's fine That was very but The underworld war bands are all just the those bottles are amazing. They are pure leavens There is a difference between fine a perfectly good sculpt nothing wrong with it and Pure unadulterated metal, right, which is the difference we're talking about here Okay, like I'm sorry. Some things are just incredible and these are four Truly amazing sculpts. That's the bottom line That's fair. That's fair. Um So we'll move on to our last news item a big shake-up drop today A number of positions got announced at gw including a lead developer position I Given that we've spent how many weeks on design and development shows in the last four weeks three of the four weeks That's the fastest job creation I've ever seen No, I mean look Joking aside we have been talking about the need for a formal developer role for two years That is legitimately true. I went back and looked when we first started talking about it um, I I I am not sure that this Role is actually doing exactly what I would construct it to be doing I think it actually feels more like a product owner role Then then how it's construed under development That means that it seems like it's an ecosystem owner like it owns the entire Of that involves design and development. Yeah, I mean my guess is it's a development lead So don't they have that already tom? There are yes, there is that there is an overall ecosystem manager. Yes Well, well when I say eco I'm at the rules ecosystem for like they have a product manager They have a you know, like they have the other leads and so Um, but gw management is a spider web. Not a ladder. It is it is very strange in decipherable in sort of web way That being said I am beyond excited about this. I love seeing this post. This made me so happy I'm so glad that they're hiring this position. I made my my Statement that I stand behind a hundred percent. I like I quote tweeted Pete Foley intentionally Who is obviously the head over book and box games and like there's a reason I quote I quote tweeted him one because I wanted him to see my exact thoughts on it And two because my thoughts are very positive. I think they should hone this position in and make them laser focused on Execution refinement and efficiency and focusing of the system Into smoothing out the bumps what the quality of the work we have been getting Has been top-notch in almost all cases Exempting there's always these few proud nails and they can often derail a book Whether that be the points being incorrect when they come out or a unit being out of whack or having too many You know like being a bad design the the books are 95 98 percent Fantastic the problem is it only takes one rotten apple to spoil the bunch right and this role should be laser focused on Achieving a product of the highest quality Okay, as somebody who does this professionally like this is my normal day job You don't get to just say Well, this defect that would block entire workflows or cripple a user in the system is just okay Because 99.8 of the program works fine That's true But we like you cannot let the problem is there's been too many seven one and seven two defects going out the door in books And this person should be absolutely laser focused in on that Right, that's the quality that we want to see and you're so close You're so close and I for one Think this person has a big job ahead of them, but I wish them all the best Whoever whomever they may be Absolutely, I'm I'm stoked that this is going to exist and uh, I think that uh, it It's something that we've talked about a long time and I'm excited that um That it's getting the attention that it needs Yeah, yep, any thoughts you apply and Martin Um, no, I look forward to saying hi to them when I'm on vacation at warhammer world. Absolutely Uh, regardless if it's if it's someone I know on this side of the pond or otherwise Uh, yeah, I I they should let people they should let if they really want top talent for this They should let someone do it remotely They need to expand they need to relax their their be and nodding them Policy, let me just say they used to have like a u.s. Studio But this is like already almost before I was in the hobby and like when I was a kid in like the mid 2000s Like they had like he was like, yeah and but Yeah, it's Already decades ago that Yeah, so much has changed COVID should have taught them that they don't need people in the building to do this role I mean the I work with multiple teams set like who are literally all over the world And uh, we do it every day and it's just fine Technology is amazing it is really great and uh, I appreciate that Insighting insurrection Now there there is one more news item if we if we actually like I don't know if we care or not The the broken rum story Yeah Go for it Go ahead. What's I don't know. I mean, which one of the jowls. That's the last one I read. Was there a new one? Uh, the the OBR one. Yeah, the jowls take chess. Yeah, it was okay. That's fine That was it. There's my there's my read of it. It was fine. Yes Yeah, it's just Didn't that guy die? I don't remember. It's been a long time. I mean, they are dead people. So it's fine. Um, yeah, it was okay Uh The yes, so we all look forward to welcoming tom to the developer role who I'm sure will be submitting his application Uh in short order and in and in no way would have any kind of headwind against him for getting such a position I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut Okay, uh anything any other news stuff we got here tom I know I think that's it. All right news complete I gotta bring up my timestamps while we go to the next uh while we go to the next item. Sorry Okay, so Uh, let's talk uh some pick of the week guys Uh, so Martin, what would you like to share with everybody? I have two picks one because it would be just Um irresponsible of me to not plug the event that I'm volunteering to help run Um, so that would be the atlantic city open. Um tickets, I believe are almost sold out. I don't have the exact numbers I talked to a recent Uh kicker at front line like every few days to keep an eye on like where we are with numbers Um, and it's it's still like catch is catch can Uh, like it's it's tough like someone has to be like first Um, in terms of like first coming back for events. Sure. Um, yeah, we're keeping an eye on guidelines for like who can come into the state Um, but things things are definitely trending in the right direction Um, there's a link on facebook the atlantic city open specifically for age of sigmar, which I am the to for um big thanks to uh, Sean feather of the basement wargaming club out of philadelphia, who is um providing judge experience bcp help and all that jazz and my parents So we're also going to be volunteering to help out and and like just Perred cats as needed. Um, so it's june 11th to the 13th We are only going to be doing a two-day event this year like a five round sort of just standard tournament um, so unlike the 12th and 13th at harris resort in, um atlantic city Uh, there will be price support both provided by front line gaming as well as yours surely Um, we currently have the cap at 60 players again. We're close to Selling out on that. I do not have an exact number um, and I uh, if there is Sort of like an opening like if as as restrictions change possibly as we get closer to the event where people get vaccinated Uh, there may be an opening of spots. I can't can't vouch for that. So it's like if you're thinking about it um, there's generally like generous like Cancellation policies on especially on the hotel, which is going to be more than what would take a price Like I just reserved my hotel uh this evening Uh, just for so I can stay the night and and help run the event And I believe I can cancel up to 72 hours in advance, which is pretty good um, and that's my first pick was a co second pick which, um Uh, uh an artist um on twitter and instagram her name is palina um on uh twitter, um as I think it's poly poli nine and dr through well, it's just like an underscore Uh, she is Yeah, yes She is an artist out of russia and truly one of the more interesting Or hammer fan artists. I've ever seen because her medium varies So widely uh recently she did a watercolor. She scanned a watercolor picture of scag rot the lune king And you can tell it's watercolor and canvas and it just looks amazing Um, she's she's also been helping me bring my homebrew lumenath host to life as I posted today Um pictures of the uh the heroes uh that she she's done for me She actually she she's so curious about the lore because she's like she dabbles in all aspects of warhammer properties But like fantasy the fantasy side is new to her And she went when she takes like a job Uh, she asks if you can provide like a little bit of backstory and the more the better she just she just gobbles it up She's really eager and curious and um, if you're not following her work, uh, please do so She is out this week having some sort of um, I think some, uh, a surgery for her eyes She had like an eye condition um, and I hope she she recovers quickly from that and she's just doing fantastic work Nice all of the down below Yeah, all right tom What do you got buddy? Uh, I'm gonna spruke uh friend of the show aos coach um, coach did a a nice little tight video on what is a triumph And I I appreciated it and so I want you to check it out It's a lot of it is just uh coach just kind of talking about this this little corner of our game, right And triumphs are important because they actually end up showing up in like rule books as part of battle tomes first stuff like ko so, um It's uh, I appreciated it It was a nice kind of like overview video of an area of the game that not a lot of people have a not a lot of Knowledge about fantastic Uh, I'll stay on brand for tonight, which is uh, my pick tonight is going to be for the cult of paint Uh, henry and andy who uh, andy recently put up a really great video about his lumineth realm lords that he's working on Uh, and it has links out to how to paint them and stuff like that in it But that's not what the video itself is about The video itself is about the challenge of painting an army and andy is one of the best painters in the world I mean, he's an absolutely incredible artist And it he goes through the challenge. He's had with painting this army just literally sitting down and putting the time in for him somebody who paints You know, basically every day who does incredible work who wins golden demons and yet still Finds it very difficult to just put in the time to paint an army And I thought it was really awesome the way he shared kind of the challenge that he's had with it And you know the the tricks that he has and where he finds the motivation and and and the blocks that he has I highly recommend watching it if you've ever felt like you have problems Finishing your army and you're alone or that like artists of a certain level just don't have this. That's nonsense absolutely check out this video. It is absolutely illuminating I think into into how everybody at every level of the hobby Has those challenges and how you can overcome them. So there you go He also put up a bunch of good luminous tutorials as part of the call to paint youtube channel Exactly. Yeah, and that video has the links out to those So that's why this is like a really great starter video because hopefully it motivates you over your painting block And then you can just go straight to the tutorials for how to do sweet luminous if you get inspired by the show tonight Uh, all right. Awesome Uh, so let's uh, let's go to some hobby time guys All right Hobby time Martin. What are you working on man? All right, so um, I have been working on uh, some spearmen and archers That's gonna come up at least a little bit on camera Um, just like a little bit. I'm not gonna be able to finish them tomorrow because um Just want to get them painted enough that they can be glued to their Painted bases and go in my favorite case so I can use them like in games Instead of them being like on wine corks and stuff. I am taking them out to My own version of vince con Hanging out with the strength hammer himself chuck more planned games Staying safe out out at his humble abode Yeah, and just and making up for lost time as it were So that's that's generally what I've been working on and as soon as those are done I will get to Uh, the rest of my lumenath army. I have like a few lists. I want to kind of build towards Um, and I do have a deadline now of even though I'm going to be the to For summer slaughter the first event that I will be playing in Is in mid august called summer slaughter uh And uh, yeah, that's also run by the basement war gamers and I'd like to try and have a fully painted army for that event Nice nice Tom what you been working on brother? uh putting my knight hawn away and Moving back to my ko Okay, we're back to we're back to the dwarves again. That's all right. It's just I like I I have a lot of projects And My hobby add is real Sure, um And so I've been working on some ko and it's been good. Okay Uh for myself, uh, I finished up my twin souls. I've got 10 twin souls all ready to go Uh, so there's one of them right there. They're in that same Uh scheme as the rest of my mortal slanish Uh, only the I have basically the big boy left gludos to sit and back there Once he's done That's basically the last unit that I actually have right now Although I did order a unit order a unit of the uh kangaroos that I'm going to turn into slick blade seekers That I'm going to uh pervert and bring over to the land of slanesh just for a second unit of those Which I think will be just a fun little conversion project sometime I can do just for For the laughs, um But what I mean, then so got them those 10 twin souls took forever I am never going to paint them again, but I'm betting hard on twin souls Betting hard on them good solid unit at 10 Nice unit, uh, I'm just betting on them coming down like 50 points And then there'll be a good unit. I'm ready to go I'll be I'll be planning for the future meta No, but I'm working on some tutorials and stuff this week and uh, and then Then it'll be time to crack into the fat boy the centerpiece Old gludos himself Who will not gludos will not be appearing in this film. It'll be a different model, but that's okay all right so Speaking of fallen elves, let's talk about lumeneth realm large shall we gentlemen are you ready? You ready to crack about this? All right so lumeneth realm lords 2021 Before we get into the presentation. Yes, of course. We have a presentation Like of course we do come on now Right I wanted to start with some high level views martin. We're gonna start with you. You're the guest Yeah, um First of all, I would like to point. I um, I'm bad at searching through my own tweets But there was a tweet I think right after broken roms teklis was announced And it's like just a prelude before we get into parsing like the the the positives and negatives Um, I'm glad this exists There was a point in time where I thought Game's workshop was kind of washed their hands of high elves as ridiculous as Those may think given where we are now. Um, I'm glad this exists Because the alternative would be like We only have evil elves and wicked like just it's it's nice to have this sure. Um, yeah, um There there's some soaring highs and surprising unfortunate lows But I don't think that changed that this is a a robust book with a lot of good tools And um I think I think that's the best way to put just like the high notes because everything else I have In terms of my own notes on it are probably best saved for when we're Parsing certain things. I think I'll leave it at that. Let me let me do answer a question that came up in the comments That's real important Which is is this going to contain any spoilers from the lore? No No, there will be zero spoilers tonight. We are not talking about the lore Next week show is going to be about broken realms teklis the other armies And we will cover the narrative next week at the end of the show And it will be tagged and you will know what's coming There will be no spoilers or anything of that kind tonight If I may add um the lore that's um, that's unrelated to the actual narrative of broken realms that's added into Um, because like if you buy broken realms teklis, like as I have it on my phone These are like pages that are just slotted in to the full luminous tone Right. Um, it does feel like a truly robust faction now regardless of those narrative events. So, um I I think that's just the the best way to put it like you can pick up Uh, battle tone luminous rum lords and not have broken realms teklis spoiled for yourself. Right. Yep. Totally fair Okay, tom tell us about your over like high level with the second release What do you think of the army and uh, why are you now getting into the army and playing it? Um If I know that uh, a lot of my critique up until this point has focused on the aesthetics of the army sure If you'll remember back to our first review of the first battle tone one of my critiques My critique of the the reason why like the aesthetics you can fix ultimately The that's just conversions. That's just hobby. That's fine Um, my critique was that it was too like monolithic like it was too Unidirectional in how the design was you either had to spam archers and spearmen or you and all You know cows and hammers Um and neither of those play styles really interested me and so that's why I said initially it's I'm not going to do the book because it's too unidimensional Um, that is something I cannot say anymore. Sure. Um, this is one of the most robust busy And I mean that both positively and in some sense in a as a critique Of any of the battle times we've seen in recent history. Yep It's playing in every phase. It can do that in multiple ways. It's very reminiscent in that sense of like old school Like turn of addition storm cast Like moving into second edition right when we got the storm cast like the new Uh sequiturs and all the wizards and everything because storm cast were suddenly playing in every phase again right And and very much this book feels that way It's playing in all the phases. It has lots of toys lots of options lots of build permutations Um, and as a johnny style player, I love that Like so like I love having options I go out a list um Right when I got my hands on the book and immediately like I fell in love with the list and the irony is that like It has no duplicate units Right, it has like eight war scrolls or nine war scrolls or something silly in zero duplicate units Um, and I love that like I loved what it gave me and so from a rule standpoint I'll say that it's amazingly diverse um, and it's in the mental, um The mental load on the player is very high. Yeah, that would be my critique But uh, but I think that it's uh more than I think it's ever been it will be a true powerhouse competitively okay All right, I I agree with all that but I think for my summary I will say that I Think they did a mostly good job There are some elements of bad design and npe in here And I think the thing I would reiterate tom is that I think the skill floor on this army is the Highest skill floor we've ever seen and that as I'm about to say this is the first Uh Blue patrol army we've ever had so with that. Let's get into that sweet powerpoint. Shall we yeah Let's get that power point going there we go. That's what we all came for we came for that sweet sweet powerpoint action All right So because it's gonna some of my thoughts here's sort of my army overview because I like I'm the one who wrote the powerpoint. So there you go Okay, to me. This is a very high skill floor elite army that can play in all faces the first real blue control army We've seen in age sigmar things have already said Yeah, uh by that for those not familiar with magic the gathering famously blue is the color of control it is, uh It is a a blue deck wins the classic we'll talk about that in just a moment But it is an army that is all about interfering with your opponent's plans as much as it is about advancing any plan of your own Right. I get to play with my toys. You don't get to play with your toys. Correct Uh strengths it is definitely a magic dom whether it be through teclis or other potential avenues It has extremely high mobility now, which was a weakness before but that has moved over into Different column for lots of different reasons, but the hurricane being chief among them It definitely has power projection. It can between whether it be teclis or sentinels or the ballastee or whatever It can absolutely disrupt the enemy's plans. It has very strong enemy disruption. It does have solid defenses Those can be ramped up, especially if you're in something like sire It does have lots of unique tech pieces and capabilities Like there are multiple abilities in this army that no other army in the game has no other scroll anywhere has Which is interesting and you can get lots and lots of command points That was unexpected, but hey, there's that new that's new Surprise. Yeah Weaknesses it is a very complicated army And if you play wrong you can lose Right, right. Um, you don't really have any true hammer in the army Probably the closest is like 30 wardens jacked up on their their uh, their spell I mean that's pretty good hammer avalanor fully buffed up like not losing profile Like he could do some work Even those guys are still pretty easy to disrupt like yes Like the mountains can be very swingy. Yes, it is hard to get them off of their top profile You're absolutely right But there's nothing in this army that you can just go like that's definitely going to remove the thing in front of me I mean archer it's like a huge block of 30 wardens if you want to Even sentence aren't going to get there. I I study the damage Yeah, no, I I think what what he's getting at is um, someone can't look at an army list and say that's going to Um, extinguish whatever it charges. Correct. And that's yeah, sure. That's exactly what you thank you There's no there's no hearthguard berserker unit here. There's no hearthguard berserker. There's no cool king on terror geist There's no mega boss on mawcrusher or you know unit of six pigs ramped up with a with a Again go in lads get stuck in and a war chanter buff, right or whatever pick your pick your explosive unit that generally in this game Like there are units in this game that you can just Shoot at things and be like nothing will survive this right, right Like because they're so they're so pushed down to like hit on twos re-rolling ones often You know sometimes causing mortal wounds sometimes not, you know, sometimes piling in multiple times Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah all the things that make hammers hammers, right? And uh, and that just doesn't exist here. Now this is to say they can't hit hard There are certainly units in this that can hit hard. I completely agree. You mentioned the mountain You mentioned you talked about 30 wardens. They're there Right, but they're both one of the interesting things about this is those are both barely slow Right comparatively Right, okay So Both you agree with my my overview. Have I said it? I think I'm agreeing with you. Yeah, I would agree with your point. Yeah, okay I as just a quick let's we will hit on power later I think this is one of the top performing armies In the meta right now. I would put this in like the top six or so armies Okay, as far as its capabilities and what it would do I think it is powerful. It is not beyond but I would put it at like number five or six I think that things like Seraphon are still beating it Probably dock are still beating it, you know, like I think there are there are multiple armies We could get into the argument of exactly what's above it on average, but I think those would be above it Martin, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, yeah, so Um, we generally have accepted sort of Stats for for how we track like like win rates and whatnot And I think with an army like this more so than than any other It's important not just to look at win percentages is when we do return to events and because of the High skill requirement for an army like this Um, people may see the army overall at a lower end win rate But then see it put it like um reaching top tens or higher. Yeah, because because it will be I don't want to use the term drag down, but that's literally what is going to be happening No, one would expect if you looked in the data, you'd see a bifurcated win pattern Determined by players. Yes. There we go But player skill is probably way more determinative Of how this army performs than a lot of other armies Yes, I learned that's why I'm only determinative anyways tune in in two weeks to learn more Anyways, uh, stop Stop it. We'll talk about that later. Um, but uh What what I would say is that um, it's a lot. It's not like daughters of king Right daughters of king like I could just be like go Go my pretties and just push them forward and they kill everything they touched. Yeah And so but with this army, I think that it's it's really going to matter who's be who's piloting Yes, and it will respond very well to high skill players So matt in the chat asked is it really high skilled though when so many things happen for almost free? Yes a thousand percent Because this army is actually rather fragile. It doesn't tend to have a huge number of bodies Like if you if you position things badly if you use your pennies at the wrong time If you fail to catch the spells you need or in the right order that you need if you fail to sort of Have your right tech pieces acting in the way they do It will fall apart on you like that's the challenge now a highly skilled player That manipulates all of these levers in the right way Is going to play a very hard to beat symphony Okay, right like when Mozart rocks up on this piano Uh, it is going to be a really really really powerful song right Uh, and and will be robust and will be able to to take hits and all that kind of stuff, right? Because they will have already done everything They will be using all of their tools in exactly the right way to weaken disrupt and depower your army and your plans And that is why npe with a bullet is the last item Because this army will drive players insane insane Regardless of the general power I love with the new book. We've just resolved that uh That dark son of doom. I forget what it's called. Um, it's total eclipse Total eclipse is just simply A feature of the army now. Yeah, like it's not a spell on their list It's it's an army feature. Yeah, that they're just going to rotate through with two wizards. Yeah, sure Yeah, I one of the first things I did when I built a list, which I I had to I'll have to I'd have to change the list Somehow because it wasn't exactly legal But that's fine Um for for reasons we'll talk about later But you could build a very different version of it that is legal that I I shared with you tom the legal version And it's called how to lose Yeah, how to lose friends and alienate people Okay, just like the worst and and people will run that kind of thing Right, and it will be horrible to play against and they're gonna win and people are gonna hate every minute of it It'll be like when vent you walked away from the table when we matched up at an event and you're just like finish your turn Right. Yeah Yeah with a stupid play touched army. Yes Yeah, like that's the point. I arguably here's the thing even if you lose Like even if that is to say even if the opponent wins if they beat the lrl They will walk away going. Yeah. I won that game was terrible That's a real challenge in this army because that's the classic. That's why I say this is a blue deck Blue decks. Well, and that's Yeah, keep going that like blue or what what's now basically like a mid-range like I hate playing those decks because it's just boring Right, like I like because what their game plan is is to make you do nothing until they get their win condition Yeah, like that like that's their game plan and this this army is not a lot different right Okay, let's let's get into it. We'll we'll we'll we'll got a lot of slides Yeah, we sure let's let's talk about why I think there's such a high scale for this is going to directly answer that question So there is a large number of once per game abilities Okay More than a dozen sprinkled throughout the book in the war scrolls and various other things Abilities that can only be triggered once per game That is a large number of things you have to remember to use And using them at exactly the right moment holding them keeping the pieces safe until you can use them till maximal effect Requires a pretty decent amount of skill Like when you can pop a thing once and it needs to be in the right combat Or the right thing to swing the game You know get it wrong you you're you're done for right Many abilities have multiple triggered layers in addition As has been off joked is like the most commonly written two words in this book Like the number of abilities that are like it does this fairly obvious thing. Okay in addition right This other stuff also that seems completely unrelated got jacked into this rule Because we realized that if we just actually wrote them all out as individual rules It would look like every scroll had 18 different abilities So instead we just squish them together and call it in addition Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Many of your abilities are either used during an enemy player's turn during their actions Are directly affecting their actions or you know, like are they're off turn? It's classic blue deck like draw card Tap nothing your turn draw go Right like you got a lot of this type of stuff. Okay Um some units can be fragile if not protected used properly like this is the sentinel conundrum, right? Like sentinels are super powerful. No doubt about it. They're amazing But like if you don't protect them properly and you let some and you let those those even like three pigs Or six pigs come screaming into them. You can might as well just pick that unit up. They're gone And just just one pig really sure Like they're gonna get blown right off the board That's not a challenge at all. Right. They can't penny themselves out of that. Okay And so what all that amounts to is that every resource in this book has to be used at the right time for maximum effect Which is why I say Uh, a really high-skill player that is that is like, you know, really dancing on the keys of this army It's going to be terrible to play against Seem right gentlemen. I miss anything there. Um, no, yeah, I I um, it's it's a it's a mind game for both for both parties Because I've seen other reviews Constantly say well like imagine this thing in cr imagine this thing with aether court stop or something like that it's like almost the the Worst scroll you're reading is almost constantly in flux when I walk up to the table at an event and show Someone my army list they will have to understand that basically everything in the army Can have the stat or ability changes combined with interrupts Reactions and it's like it's not going it does not do What it says on the cover Right Yeah, so yeah, absolutely And and so matt said I feel like high memorization versus tedious first of all those aren't mutually exclusive You can have both like that's a full psychotomy number one Number two, I agree with you boc is a high skill floor army I actually do think beast of cast is a high skill floor army The problem is it's a high skill floor just because you have to use every piece in exactly the right way because you're on a knife edge Or you just die Right because the army has like is a bunch of people made of paper with a bravery negative four Right, um, they're made of paper until I say they're not for a little while and that could be key Yeah, this army you look at something think of the very simple choice That is literally like the Basic function of this army that's probably too good, but there it is and that's aether quartz Right, we're not even going to put it in sire. Every unit has one penny Win and what you use that penny on Using it for the right spell at the right time on your wizard or the right unit in the right phase to get the Right save to stay alive for one round when you needed to to move the numbers right knowing when you're getting attacked All of that stuff is the skill i'm talking about Okay Like aether quartz isn't a fire and forget thing It can turn the game when used properly and it can be nothing when you use it wrong Yeah Right like low skill players will rock up in this army. They'll look at their aether quartz They'll get a big charge with their wardens They'll pop the plus one to hit and be like yay, and they'll chop the crap out of something And that and that they will have killed that unit and that will be completely irrelevant to that to the winning of that game Right, right and in the end the extra like five six wounds you did because that plus one to hit didn't matter at all right Right, right because you've just misused that resource That's my point Right, okay, sorry. Yeah, it's a control army. It's blue deck wins Right, that's what this is You're putting up things that are going to disrupt their movement or or in some kind of ways you're using your units to disrupt them Using your spells to disrupt them You're using every like you're you're firing off total eclipse every round to keep them so they can't use their command points Right, right, right That's that's this army. It's a blue deck wins and panel panel needs to hit Yeah penalties to hit everywhere this army loves a neg one to hit if you're fighting lumen ethan you don't have neg One to hit. I I don't know what's going on. They're not doing their job. Yeah, right Right Line of sight that doesn't matter. You're hiding behind rocks. They're gonna shoot like They're gonna ignore the rules and do what they need to do to win Yeah So tp grants that I watched this exact thing happened at a game store last weekend a new lrl player didn't understand the army and got Rinsed. Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll believe that absolutely Right. Yep, and the The trick with that is it's like if you win, you know, we you tom you and I played magic for years and years And if you hand somebody brand new to magic or newer to magic a control deck, it's hilarious Right, you can steam this is terrible. I hate this, right Because it's just it's like you you have to know you have you have a limited number of resources And you disrupt the most important things they do, right? Right. That's what it is. It's a blue deck wins right and It is is truly resource management is how you win with this army Yep Which is why I hate it and would never play this army. This is the opposite of the army type. I enjoy I don't like play. I don't like I don't like playing against it and I don't like playing. I would never play it or pilot it Yeah Well, they have my attention. Not sure and I hope I hope I don't feel bad when we eventually have our rematch No, of course not. I'll be half martin. I would play you with any army you wanted to bring to the table But you're it's always very much fun playing you martin. So yes, thank you Me on the other hand, Vince would pass. Yeah, tom. That's a hard pass I'll play martin twice. That's it. I'll do tom will rock up and I'm like, no, go leave. I'm gonna play martin again There you go Okay So, uh All right, so let's actually get into the meat of this thing uh Allegiance abilities. So there's no new generic abilities other than the two sub factions, right? Uh, which you're a new scenario ability. I have no idea if I spelled any of these words, right? Like I think I did but I probably I checked you're good. Oh awesome. Thank you I was just I was literally doing those words off of memory and I'm terrible at that. So hey, there you go And it's not like it's not like powerpoint's gonna tell me it's wrong, right? No, good job Okay, so senari now we'll have senari are your your wizard folks like your senari kathalar and your uh, yeah those people Pain brush guy and uh, war master. Yep, exactly and and the twins the twins are So all of those four people have this ability called contemplate Wherein they can choose to not cast a spell for a round and then the next magic phase they can autocast a single spell on a nine What that should read is they will autocast total eclipse next round Next round Yeah, you just take two of these guys one of them's always contemplating one of them's not And they just total eclipse off every round And so you may get A spell you may be able to spend command points turn one But after that if you can't unbind them You will no longer be able to use command points in that game Or or at least very rarely and to not like that. Yeah, it's like you'll you'll be at double cost I'm being flippant when I say you don't you can't use them, but uh, you'll be heavily taxed So it's like death and taxes It is like death and taxes, which is a deck I played anyways Which is funny, uh at any rate, uh And then the hurricane which is your uh, your new monkey king windrider the flying foxes and the The windriders Their ability is they can pile in any direction when they pile in they get three extra inches and they can fly when they pile in Uh, a single rule that breaks three rules It's ridiculous Yeah, three rules. Um, I do not like this sam. I am uh This is Way too many rules broken. I don't mind the plus three inches in the fly I think that's what they should have stopped at Honestly, like if that had been the thing I would have been fine. That would have been correct That would have felt right like because they could jump way around things and stuff like that and the uh The but the pile in any direction opens up so much jank Like and and like we'll we'll get into the jank later of really exploring just how gross this can be But the fact that you you can just go whatever direction you want And by the way, all these guys have three inch range weapons, right? So they can always just like Come into you to complete the charge and then pile out To the three inch line. So at minimum they're like at bare men's they're completely minimizing how many of the enemy gets to fight them back Right because they can pull all back if they wanted to all back But one model at the three inch mark and make it so you can only get one to three models into that One model right and they can do that forever because they just just keep doing it every turn Uh And that's and that's a and that's a best case scenario for you It can be worse. Yeah, this is like could be so much worse Yeah, on this slide. I have my editor's note. My editor's note is That with the addition of scenario in hurrican and and now all of the individual types vanari scenario hurrican and alarith Having their own rules Okay This is the only like this that means lumeneth have a type bonus set of rules like skaven gets in boc Yeah They have uh strong generic allegiance abilities like the best books like aether quartz and Fight with two units instead of one every time they activate like very strong allegiance abilities And full sub faction rules. Yeah, they have three layers of free rules. Correct. They are the only book There's only one other book that has sort of this And they're actually missing this middle piece Okay, which is strong generic allegiance rules Okay, and that's boc Which is ironic, right? But my point being is that there are three different layers of rules Layed down on every scroll in this book Yeah, it's It's amazing. Oh, yeah from a list billing standpoint Yes, that's what I think it's it makes them unique like skaven have typified rules and pretty good allegiance abilities, but no sub factions Right, right gets sort of have typified rules under the bad moon effectively, right? Like And then they don't really have sub factions unless you're like doing an all-in goofy army, right? Like like, uh, You know maws of jork or something like that or the spider army again Not those are bad. I think maws of jork is one of the greatest armies in the history of warhammer And everybody should be playing maws of jork Um, but like my point is they nailed all three of those layers Their sub factions are good. They're basically agents are good and their typified rules are good And every one of those things stacks on every unit in the game And i'm not even talking like battalions, of course, like normally you could lay on there too, right? Yeah No, it's it's it is an impressive level of depth where they they, um I I I know it's uh Narrative is not as important to like sort of like bacon to the design, but it it It rewards you for They've taken almost every aspect of how they wrote this the society of elves and then just like so This cast does this this cast does that and then these nations have these own traits and how they perform And then you have the the um bigger umbrella beyond that of here's everything that that um Illumina as as a an army have access to right and yeah, it's um I I don't know if we want something that involved for for every like army Because I think that would probably get a little noisy but possibly baking in Um, the options in some other fashion a little bit more streamlined. Yeah, I'll give you my honest answer And then I want to hit a comment real quick. They shouldn't have all these rules Okay, they just shouldn't it's that easy They just shouldn't okay Like they overwrote this book Yes, like there's a layer that needs to not be here. I don't know what that layer is So either the sub factions or the genericals or the typified rules The typified rules the type rules one of those three layers needs to not be there And I'm and it's actually okay if they like Each book they release they want to clump these Like yeah, I think if they love to work If they move them to worse girls, I think Like some of these bonuses like especially the allureth like the allureth, especially it's like some of the stuff should just begin these worse girls because now it's Only like you metric it in general before we get to like the sub factions It's like that now only affects 10 percent of the army And some sub factions only affect that much But I think some of these rules if you just move them to This is like the mountain stance It's like you can choose to be a mountain stance that hasn't there is not another stance I mean stone mage, but like you don't they are not mutually exclusive stances You could just move those to the three worse girls that needs to be on and you're done Yeah, my honest answer is this whole army has too many rules Like right there are just actually that was that was true before too Like on stone mountain man There's that ridiculous set of rules about like if he's near a character and then the character doesn't move and or he Doesn't move and they end up in the next hero phase being x-enches away from each other Then like that somebody could use a command ability for free and i'm just like What kind of ridiculous mouse trap Rube Goldberg situation Do I need to execute on here to make this happen? Like that entire again if somebody had handed me that set of rules. I would have been like No, I got like yeah, so yeah, there you go Um now as to like somebody had asked up above like how do new players deal with this could this be a bad time for people? Yeah, but we'll talk about ways that I think this you can you can push on this army We will talk about some ways to beat it my my hope is that it's not too toxic I guess time will tell on that I it'll be interesting to do another npe show at some point, you know next year and see what it's like You know like it's it's a question. I don't know It's it's not that they're unbeatable. It's that they're probably not going to give a good game under a lot of circumstances Especially the less the players The the thing that I struggle with is that like if you're not like the mental load for LRL player is real okay That said I don't know how I've prepped my opponent for the game They're about to have sure if they're not familiar with the army and its capabilities, right? Well, what does your army do? Well A lot just a lot like so much more than I can explain to you Right, right like I could hand out a show Yeah, I could hand out an entire like cheat sheet of everything I can do in every phase And their eyes would just glaze over like so I don't know how non-specialists of this army Are supposed to expect to play it and not know that you're not cheating Right like sure. I'll use this ability and then do this other thing and also this happens and now Are now your losses and you have this penalty and it's like wait, what happened go ahead Now I was just saying perhaps that could be like a topic for a show in summer like like Sort of that pregame discussion. Yeah, like even like even at an event like it's it's I mean when I'm playing my iron jaws Right like here's the pregame discussion, right? Okay, everything in my units hits like a truck and I can be anywhere on the board. I want at any point in time That's what's gonna happen. I have unbelievable mobility and when I show up I'm gonna blow up whatever I touch so you may want to chaff accordingly Okay, these little guys make me do more damage. These guys hit real hard and go real fast Right, right, then that's about it. Like like you got it. That's what iron jaws does, baby That's the army. I just summarized the whole thing Okay, but with this you're gonna be like, okay, so these units these three Pile in an extra three inches. They don't have to pile in towards the enemy and they fly when they do that These wizards in addition everything on their war scroll can auto can forgo their spell And cast on a nine on the next turn If they didn't cast this turn and also this one can steal bravery from my units and give it to your units Then also make you take the losses because that's all the same character, right? And then all of them Can do this or this or this or this but when I do that I take a penalty to brave But when I take a penalty to brave you I can give that to you because of this character So what you're telling me is it's it's someone's job And I'll say maybe it's my job to go out there and and and find a way to summarize What Illuminat army does you're gonna have to prepare people Otherwise, what you're gonna do is you're gonna generate bad experiences. Yeah, because it's gonna be like, you know when when you were a kid and You were playing like, I don't know like army soldiers You know like the little old monopos army soldiers and like you'd set up and pow pow. Maybe it's just me And you'd be playing with your neighbor friend and suddenly you're like and then I do this And he's like wait that you're not allowed to do that and I'll be like, yeah, I am it's in the rules You know like and they're like you're changing the rules. Well, we the problem This there's an agreed upon assumption as to how the game plays and lumen f's like nah Right. No, yeah, exactly. You got to pile in towards enemies. No, I don't command abilities are used for one command point No, they don't right. Um all this kind of stuff. Yeah. So, um, somebody said can you make fun lists out of this army? Yeah Yeah, absolutely. The there are uh like a thousand thousand percent. Yes There are absolutely lists you can make with this army that aren't packed full of npe that will play pretty normal war hammer And honestly be pretty fun They'll just play very classic high elveny like stuff like those lists do exist. They can be done So you don't have to be a jerk with this army. You don't Okay But it incentivizes That type of play because of the way the design kind of points Of like if you're going to use this, this is how you should use it. Yeah, there are absolutely fun lists with this Right, right Okay, yeah All right, let's keep moving Let's talk about that terrain piece as well in the allegiance abilities because guess what it's shrine time shrine time Oh, by the way, yeah, they get a terrain piece They get a terrain piece as well. Yes uh The terrain piece is this big old floaty shrine There are FAQ questions around this thing. It is a gorgeous terrain piece I might get one just have it on my table because I think it'd look really cool. It's just a generic terrain piece on the table Um, it's set up wholly within your territory after territories are chosen one inch from other terrain six inches from objectives If you've got a person garrisoning it by the way, only elves can garrison it only one elf character can garrison it So you can't garrison their shrine take that seraphon Uh with your stupid building that the enemy can garrison Uh, you can reroll one casting unbinding or dispelling roll each turn for a hero within 12 inches of it and once turn the shrine guardian can, uh, use a uh, command ability for free I I have so many questions which is like 10 free command points over the course of the game I mean you started garrisoned in the thing You know nine if you didn't or whatever Okay, uh I have so many questions around how the footprint of this terrain works because of garrison This is the FAQ question. Can you move under it? What happens like if it's garrisoned? Clearly not because then you can't move within three inches of it or you're in combat So like that's how garrisoning terrain works normally But what if it's not garrisoned and I happen to walk under it and then somebody garrisons it like Then what happens then can I because I can't garrison the thing but they could right? I could be like under it on this side Then they jump in from over here because they started holy within six and then garrisoned it and then like now I'm technically in combat with them like what is happening here Yeah, well like you could put somebody in the middle Of the legs underneath. Yeah. Yeah You can deploy like 20 spirit under that thing Well, it's it's a lot of space under there Well, I was simply gonna say then they like you force like a six inch charge a six seven inch charge Because they have to start outside three inches of the waterfalls like the footprint of the thing itself if it's garrison Yes, and so like you could keep somebody in the middle protected Like from like short charges ever Like they would only be able to get into those people with a long charge, which is just hilarious to me Yeah, so I don't know there's a lot of FAQ questions around this trade piece They're going to need to write a like a lengthy response of like if I don't want to see that What's going to happen is that people are going to submit some really intelligent questions like martin Who are going to formulate some really smart FAQ questions and the answer you get back is going to be yes No It's going to be so good No, it's like and the thing is like because you can theoretically put a scenario in there Which comes with something where it's like well What happens with with the body guards and then it just it It it's a it's a glorious mess a glorious of the capital G like I I mean in the end like um A lot of the stuff can be resolved by players where it's like well, what's going on here And and they'll just say it probably does this and that's what's going to how it's going to end up being resolved but in terms of event play and and just just rules as written And then there's the whole thing with iliotha, which I Don't even want to go near sure because like that Are you doubling your command points because I'm cast I'm using it for free here and then does it dupe up for free again? Right. Yeah, because there are multiple There's no way around it. There are there are multiple command abilities in this army Which um are not triggered by heroes But you need a hero on the table for those command abilities to trigger right now I I've had this discussion a few times Not within the past two or three days to have the screenshots handy of of like how it's resolved I don't know if if it that specific aspect that it requires an FAQ But it could be interpreted as so long as the hero that you're electing to participate in the Like because the weirdest thing is most of the time Heroes are not using command abilities you the player are Which is how it how it gets weird because the language specifically says that the shrine guardian can use a command ability for free And that's where it just goes crazy. Well Yeah, so I mean what I would say is this Um, I wonder if we're not getting a glimpse behind the carton of third edition Oh for sure Like maybe not with this thing specifically but but elsewhere in the book. Yeah Well, maybe Maybe that that maybe that maybe command abilities will be divorced from models predominantly I don't know. I don't know but I look forward to I look forward to whatever nonsense comes with command abilities in 3.0, which they because they change it every edition Here's what i'll bet on right they're gonna change and however they change Look at 10 free a game Okay, like that's what we can say. All right. Yes. I don't want to beat this all up too bad. Let's let's let's move on from shrine it's like uh You know It is what it is Many FAQs incoming stay tuned. This will not be the last time we ask for FAQ. I Haven't mentioned. I love the diversity of rules in this army. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, sure I get it All right, let's talk sub factions new sub factions All right While I time stamp here for sub factions, okay All right, great. I like I like the alumni sub faction. It's like hey all those No alumni it's for all the alumni elf players. Yes all the old high elf players All right, so let's talk about sub faction al-Yuminia As I'm sure it'll be end up being called So sub faction al-Yuminia Its generic ability is three venari or senari units get a pregame normal move Which is your venari or obviously all your sort of shining company kind of folks And uh, you know your wardens and your Ascendals and those kinds and all your traditional high elves basically Scenari are your aforementioned casters? They get a full-on move Sure, that's pretty good. Why not seems good Your command ability is run in charge your command trait is very bad And I'm not even going to talk about it because it's not worth repeating Uh, but your artifact is once per battle. You can teleport You get a teleport of basically 12 inches. It's like weirdly phrased for no reason Um, but it's during the movement phase and you can like you pick a point and you teleport to it So it's technically kind of a 13 inch teleport or whatever ish, but it's fine. It's cool. It's teleport. It's perfectly It should be noted that that uh run in charge is Um, not limited by any ranges. This is one of those abilities that we're talking about It's not like a unit with an 18 inches of a hero No, it's spend a command point anybody anywhere on the battlefield can run in charge like one unit can run in charge Yes, that's right. That's right. So like again, this is the kind of thing that the shrine guardian could do Right, he could just be over there banging this drum for free Right, right and he in like it doesn't matter where the Where the unit he is that that he's targeting is because That this doesn't put restrictions on that unlike many other command abilities, right? It doesn't have to emanate from a hero within x inches it's just Somebody in your army gets to now run in charge go nuts Right. Yep uh Aluminia, okay. So that's the basics. Let's talk about Aluminia, what does it do? Well, uh, well, it's excellent for many battle plans to grab really objectives It's alumnia. I aluminia. I'm gonna keep saying it because it makes me laugh. But yes, it's fine It's fine mispronouncing elvish things is one of my great joys in life Okay, so please don't ruin it for me Oh, oh, trust me. Like there's there's this this whole sections and lord of the rings lord videos on pronouncing words and syllables And it's like you're all doing it wrong. Like well That was written by a linguist. I mean anyone I like anyone watching them It's like you're all all lord of the rings fans are doing it wrong apparently. It's fine Uh, it allows for that early excellent board control Uh, it's great for easy run in charge on things like wardens to get them into the fight It's absolutely amazing with the lore seeker Because you can have him drop down and then go out and send out protection units to also threaten other objectives or to help bodyguard him or whatever Uh, I really like aluminia. I really do. I think this is a super potent sub faction I think it could like The fact that what that speed especially among heavy venari armies can still be a problem Right like you are not a very mobile force. You're relying on a lot of foot slogging folks And the fact that three units can just make a full move pregame not d3 like every everybody else No, no, not like the rest of us plebs who get d3 units to pregame move. No three All three right So there you go Yeah, um, I think this is where You have a home in those fun like we were talking a few minutes ago. It's like can people still make fun armies This is a good home for your fun armies It lets you play a little faster. It lets you play a little bit more aggressively And it still gives you some like control tricks in there with that like the the lore master using the teleport item But um, yeah, it lets you play a little bit more fast and loose Like for the her long let's just go faster like yeah, I mean, I think it makes wardens I think this is a great If you like wardens, I think this is an interesting play for them right like because Wardens now get to start farther ahead or be in a better position a more forward position, right? They like they can be out there Yeah, still in shining company right farther forward Maybe in a more advanced position Which is nice like you generally want them to be out and to set the charge Getting a whole extra turns move right the beginning of the game is pretty good And if you break shining company and suddenly can run in charge That could be pretty good too depending on what you need to do with them right I mean the thing that I would add that I actually think that like is the really the most interesting play Um with that early move is using it with the calf Because like you can you can put them wherever you want on the board Yeah, 100% like dawn writers. You mean yes. Yeah, like taking and taking like a block of 10 Which are on a four up save And shoving them down somebody's throat like I think there's a real potential for like a mobile anvil You're just there early holding an objective pretty hard Which forces them to come out right because you're at like check you're going to control the objective Even if you don't have first turn right right, right? Yeah, right you can get to the point where your dawn writers have went out and claimed one thing You've got a lore seeker on another which I'll talk about him later And like where you're just holding a majority of the board before they've even gone Right, even if they go first, right? Correct Yeah, like it's crazy And I would point out like scenario units can do that too. So depending on the objective placement Some they might be able to literally like toe into the objectives and actually threaten those if they're hero focus objectives like Places or whatever Yeah Anything else on aluminium Good stuff. I like it. I it's one of my favorites. Yeah, I think aluminium is strong Uh, we'll talk about what we think compared to the existing ones after we cover the second one. So Uh, let's talk about the great nation of helan Helan uh helan Uh generic ability plus one to attack with missile weapons used within three inches of the enemy unit So it makes you a better shooter up close uh All all all win Writers need to have their bows turned sideways because they're if they're in helan because they they're in there for the kill shot The turn of the gun they turn the bow sideways. It's a kill shot. It's a kill shot Okay, uh, their command ability is they allow a unit to make a normal move at the end of combat Which is going to get insane for reasons. We'll talk about later Uh, and their uh command trade is actually quite good once again You can reroll one run reroll one charge and reroll one casting roll roll for the person who has it quite nice Um, what more three once a game abilities by the way when I was counting those I counted that as one But that's actually three distinct once a game abilities right there Uh, and then your artifact is once per game yet again Uh at the start of combat you can pick one enemy unit within three inches and they're neg one to hit and wound for that enemy That that enemy is neg one to hit and wound until the end of the phase very very very potent artifact. Holy moses That's a good artifact That's a spicy meat the ball Uh, and then they also make win writers battle line. It's like it's like I got something before I argue on Yeah, like the again so much of this army relies on Uh, using the right resource at the right time and like you pop your penny and your plus one to save and you pop the artifact And your neg one their neg one to hit and wound like Suddenly you're really really really diminishing that enemy unit's ability to move you in the turn where they needed to move you and you hold the You hold the uh the objective for one extra turn oftentimes. That's the difference between winning and losing. Okay Martin, what do you think about uh about helon? I'll flip to the what does it do? Well, but I want your take first Yeah, um, it's it's a lot. It's it's your your This is your counterpart to your metrica. This is you you want to you want to Do like all all the win writers all the time all of all of the new win toys This is this is the sub faction for you. Yeah, except for separate Sure, I mean we can get we get um, we'll get any Yeah, I was about to say like that that's sort of like that's a discussion I think is more more applicable to like when we talk about the main characters in general, but it's it's yeah, it's It really just gives you more toys For playing the stuff that you wanted to play with already if You're all in like a christian weir's like I I I want to play at least 20 of these and Here you go. Yeah Yeah, I mean it it makes for as like you can you can all read what's on the screen But I think this really makes for an extremely mobile force That is there to frustrate your enemy. It's going to be doing things like piling out Leaving combat completely walking away leaving you stranded reducing your unit's ability to kill off turn Right to to do damage where they don't want them to do damage to be in the way be blocking anything Rechapping like all that kind of stuff Right is what they're going to do now at the same time I should state that Don't underestimate that plus one attack when you're within three inches Okay You're right. Yeah, of course now It's it's not the easiest thing to trigger right because you got to like be in combat and then sort of stay there right By the time like you're shooting before you're charging normally so it's you right you're only getting it the next turn right But once it's firing off if you've got like a big unit of winriders You know they they can do significant damage or of course the the archers like there have been some gamey with some Floating around online or it's like can I get a unit of 20 sentinels? Into combat long enough for me to do this next turn. Sure. So they get two shots per bow like Fine like you you've got you you've done your thing. It's like smash bats like I I have Built towards this exact thing sure and now I'm going to do it and kill something very hard with it. Yeah Tom is grinning Here's the question. I can't wait for people to be charging with the listas to get this bonus. Okay, so Uh, you really got to go all in get the five attacks out of the ballista um The here's here's my question. Um How do these two compare to the existing nations? Um Tom do you want to go first or yeah, I mean Are are you still sticking with any of the original ones? What are you doing? Yeah, I mean for me like alumnia is like It's very like we've talked about this sub factions of four and what makes perfect sub faction It is three out of its four abilities are things that I would like write home about You know, I feel like really good um, and so it is in the conversation for me with zay track and with uh CR Yeah, I think sire is still the king honestly. I think it's just I think double penny is the most powerful thing That's ever been put in a book ever um So, I mean like it just is Because of what you can do with it and But that being said, I think I think both of the new ones compare pretty favorably I do agree with you. I think it's up there with like zay track. I think it's certainly on that level Um as like the I'm just not a a gamey gamey gamey power gamer, and I'd like to play something fun uh, so like helan and and uh, alumina and uh And zay track are all those right that that's what this reads me It's it's like it's tier two, but it's still really good It's called the level that most armies would kill to have a sub faction for format right right like I I'm gonna okay. Look. You got to give me one of these in the whole show. So here's my one thing I'm gonna say this and I'm never gonna come back to it again. I'm not gonna say it anymore I need we lost on that's fine. He'll be back in a second Uh, but I need one of these. Okay It's like here And then like this is sire and then sort of zay track and alumina and alumina and helan and everything And then that way down here Is like everything printed in the slanesh book the fact that this book came out Right on the after slanesh Okay is so deeply hurtful to me The fact that like slanesh who in my mind should have always been the army of speed kills Every story about that army is them just ripping around the mortal realms at lightning speed On chariots and riding these crazy mounts and just whoo tear it around the mortal realms Smashing into people like lunatics just crazy mad max style You know psychopaths Screaming across the realms at ultra speed. Okay. He's not done. He's not done yet. Is he no The fact that this book gave me gave put this speed in the hands of the elves that is like So much faster than like not even close To everything in slanesh Okay It's hurtful to me and that's it. I had to get it out We're done. That's I'm not going to mention it if I if I could laugh like rich evans and I think I I'm thankful. I cannot I would be right now. Sure. I mean, this is what I'll say Just let your pain out bits as as one person who Just a little over a year ago experienced something very similar. I get it I understand what you are heard. I know where you're coming from. Thank you chomp. All right Anyways, there you go. Yeah, if can can I just before we move on? I would say my my opinion is of least It's like because when we were saying it's like there are too many rules. What needs to get cut I do appreciate and like this is still the standard. I think of the sub factions like CR needs to change like I think cr needs probably needs to be redesigned But the play styles the diversity of play styles Um available to people in each of the sub factions which are out there Yeah, and that are also introduced within helan. I get it the helan must jokes. I get it Um, they're all in the chat. That's why I brought it out. Yeah, I know it sounds good Yeah, and alumnia like they take the same units And just open them up for players And I think that's just so rewarding and that is the standard we should set CR separately but like zytrec alumnia like people are still thinking about yametrica because of Like the way you can use stone guard and the mountain spirits now completely agree I agree other than sire being out of bounds. I think lumineff is actually a great example of how sub factions should be written That's why I would have said like if I if I was redoing this I would just jettison all those type rules We don't need like the binari senari nonsense like none of that crap needs to exist This army it could all be You could just like give the appropriate units if they needed them and not everyone did by the way Like archers don't need to be set up in shining company and have neg one to hit built into them. They just don't They just don't Okay, right like it just it just doesn't need to be a thing that's happening That was just what wardens did right if that was just like a warden ability fine fine Agreed right like whatever so anyways, okay. No. Yeah, I I'm yeah Uh, rock. Oh, you boy. Hey if we find a counter for for alumina. Are we gonna call it alumina foil? Yes Yes, a thousand percent. That's if you both have pregame moves Okay, where you have to roll off because when you both have pregame moves you have to roll off for who does it first, right If they beat you that's called an alumina foil right there. That's what the name of that maneuver is So there you go nailed it nailed it. Okay New units Let's get all right now that we're on war scrolls. I will be back in 20 seconds. I am getting water You go get some water while we start talking war scrolls. All right Settle in folks. Here we go. Let's get to them hot hot new units All right. Well the first one's boring. Uh, so the scenario calligrapher. This is the penman Right Poor guy. His spell is bad Uh, I don't know how I'll say it like it's just mathematically incorrect Um, it was designed wrong. Somebody didn't check the numbers You would never use its ability to marker light somebody because that's actually mathematically worse Than just throwing a d3 wounds at them twice Okay Uh, because you still got to cast the spell twice. It's not like it just goes off automatically or something um It doesn't work And their actual ability of the realm scribe can be very hard to use Because it fires off on a bonus and it has to and it's actually a tough role So like on round one it only goes off on a four up round two. It's on a three up, which is still very failable So like Let me jump in real quick. Yeah um For those that don't understand what vince is saying about the mathematically like wrong You are going to average more damage from two d3 mortal wounds than one d6. Correct Have the shoes Always it's always the right answer to throw a d3 every turn Then to throw that d6 right and d3 wounds Against against an only hero with a 24 inch range is overcosted on seven To cast right. That's the bottom line. Right. He's also a fragile hero, you know, five wounds on a five up save now, uh I mean none of that matters shrine What's that? Yes, it does say by the way it actually does d3 wounds Which I don't know what the heck that means. It's like I guess they still get saves against it even. I'm not sure Um, but even so it's about it would Well, that's even worse. Yeah, it's like it's very very bad There's an faq here of whether they met mortal wounds and just screwed up the text well if the uh, if the daughters of kane Faqs anything to be to follow then that no those are normal wounds and you're right means that uh Yeah, everybody in the chat's correct I should have stated that I was kind of assuming that it was a misprint But you're right. You're right. I shouldn't assume that Right because I mean like what they did with the faq precedent Of the daughters of kane is say no when it actually says wounds It is wound and apparently it's printed as mortal wounds on the war scroll card and in the app There you go. So again more confused. It's an faq, but it doesn't matter really because the spell is bad Regardless, so he has a he is a cheap body for the shrine Because the shrine doesn't move contrary to to everyone It's all the flavor text. Yeah, right all the flavor text all of the art of play wrote. Yeah, right um You may not necessarily want to put your cathalar Or or or the twins like on the shrine you may want them somewhere else in the battlefield So having one of these if you have them in your list Um, it is the least expensive scenario to take. Yes and uh, just having a scenario on the shrine is not a bad place to be so Like there's there's still value The the use for me to these guys I could see the use of these guys in a highly competitive force I could see taking two of them Because it's only 200 points for two of them And they're both your total eclipse casters. You take two of them. You give them both You give them both total eclipse you backboard them Just like you bury them somewhere Right and they just literally sit in the back and one of them tries to cast round one the other one contemplates And then from that point on they both just contemplate and cast contemplate and cast And it's the cheapest total eclipse engine You have you have basically because they could sit out of dispel range So nobody except sarapan could even have a chance to dispel them Right And you have guaranteed entire game or four fifths of the game at least total eclipse For 200 for 200 Which is way cheaper than doing it as you used to with teclis as as martin noted the like all the all the The signs point to the fact that the train piece used to move Like in the lore and in the article and stuff like that I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall In that meeting when somebody you know what? Looking at the entire book. This is it right here The the shrine moves we can't have that. That's way too strong Sure with like all the rest of the layers of rules that we've talked about It's just a nightmare to try to move this big terrain piece around that would be what the answer is And if you were in and if you were in combat You would pile in as the shrine and if you're a hurricane you could pile in Six inches. Yeah It would have been amazing No, I'm I'm looking something up while we talk apparently with the contemplating I think it's printed LR in different places that it can't be unbound No, it can't in the base in the book It says it that that nine cannot be modified in other words You cannot add other bonuses to it which is of course now all of those set number things work And then or penalties or penalties. Correct. Correct. It just it fires on a nine And it but it does say but it can Be unbound Yeah, specifically says that in the rules. Yes. Yes. All right. You just have to roll roll that hard 10 Can't roll that hard 10 Or less because your bonuses to unbinding still apply But yes, again, my point is if I was going to the only use for the caligree if I could really see You should take two of them you backboard amount of dispel range and you just have them sit there and go We hold the moon into place over the sun Masters of the moon Moon masters. I don't know actually what they're holding. I would assume How do they create an eclipse? Hold on If you're fighting in haish Which is the sun Of the mortal realms. It's what generates light Okay, which I have no problem with like I got it's bright going realm It generates light for the rest of the mortal realms. I'm cool with that. Okay So If it's the sun Okay How do they if they're in haish itself? Yeah, how how do they total eclipse? It has a nighttime Like it's not complete darkness. It's weird, but it does have a nighttime because it's technically yeah It's okay. I I don't understand my point is it's not an eclipse and eclipse specific meaning It is an astral body moving in there. There are there are two moons the source of light There are two moons selenar Like the the sphinx Body of teclis. Yeah is the avatar of the true moon of haish, which is selenar And then there is leoth Which is I believe like the false moon. I assume that's going to be a model in Malerian's sort of shadow army sure because it's like the trickster moon or something sure It could just be hey Selenar can you can you just like block out like all all light for a bit? And like they get on the telephone and they just call them and they say did you did you cast a spell? I contemplated so just it just happens. It's like sure. I'll be right over My point is if you're on the sun You cannot create an eclipse. You're Nothing that can be between you and the light That's no problem. Here's where here's where you're you've missed that fence. Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready I'm not asking how does it get dark? That's not what the question is the spell is total eclipse and eclipse is defined thing Not night time Go right now Here's where you step messed up You see it's a metaphor Oh, okay. Oh got it. All right. That answers the question. Thanks, Tom because Wait, all right because Enlightenment has been shrouded So the truth has been concealed And so the heresy All right, we're going to the next four scroll here we go All right next four scroll Venori banner blade, okay as an aside I love the fact that in the lore the other moon is the trickster moon sure like In search of what the other tricks to start here like we'll get that eventually Okay, giant banner man banner man banner man Uh, yeah banner guy's cool. Uh, he's got to do anything I'm glad he doesn't do what he used to do. No, he doesn't he doesn't actually do much of anything Which is unfortunate like like he reminds me of the banner man In the rewrite of the war scroll of the compendium war scrolls Hold on. I I'm sorry. I reject your answer Martin Or sorry marson in the chat has answered it They simply play total eclipse of the heart and that's how it happens and When that song is playing, of course, it would take two command points to do anything because everybody is is jamming to that obvious and eternal banger So there's no way they would heed your commands. That is the answer. Thank you. That is how total eclipse gets cast in haish Okay, I am now satisfied at any rate. Yeah, the banner blade doesn't do anything. That's a problem He's a perfectly decent enough hero five wounds on three up save his attack is like, okay and But his banner is like it's plus one bravery. Okay, whatever Like again not relevant And hey, hey it cancels out that penalty that you have sure for spending your your That you're never going to take because the cathol are you too? Yeah, I agree and um And you know what he has this once a game ability to fire off a little pulse from his banner But the problem is is that you get it is at the start of any phase, which is cool Right like I appreciate that you can do it like in the start of the enemy charge phase or something and damage their units on the way I like it's cool But you roll a die Like you get to do this once and then you roll a die for each enemy Unit within 18 inches of the model if the roll is equal to or less than the number of the current battle round Then they take d3 wounds and subtract one from hit rolls Right. So like on turn three you've got a 50 50 shot of it affecting the units within 18 inches So you're saying it's a bad night a zero slander Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. Yes And so like I mean it's bigger range, but it's much less effect, right? I I do have one I have like the find the world's smallest tin foil hat because I have a I have a tiny tin foil hat theory Um, most of the offenders of what made 8th edition warhammer fantasy As unfun as we're army battle standard bearers that gave broken abilities to units Specifically the most broken the silly one like because it's like when when bisa nergal came out and like the bisa nergal worse girl I mean like I I understand broken rums has changed it a little bit But like when they made the new plastic bisa nergal Which was one of the main things that people just like went on about as just like Oppressive and is now terrible Banner of the world dragon sure and everyone was starting to shake in their boots when they saw that it was called I believe it's called the world banner. Yeah, and just what it did and I'm kind of glad That this that this is not Doing what the banner of the world dragon used to do is this army does enough already You mean that it's just not ever going to be taken got it Yeah, I mean he's he's a nice cool. You it's a beautiful model But like he doesn't the actual main problem to me isn't even like the the Swinginess of the banner firing off where you could easily fire it off and just get nothing out of it Like you're you're not if you use it later than turn three. It's too late. The game's over, right? Yeah, but like I'm just Sorry, this is one thing in the chat just to be real quick about it banner of the world dragon was this thing that High Elbs could take it had a like two paragraphs of epic flavor text And then just broke about five or six rules with two sentences of rules Yeah, I mean most importantly gave you a two of words save against demons Yes, an entire faction the one unit got Basically immune to damage from one faction of the game It was it was super fun as a player of dean armies during the time period. It was a great It was amazing against as high a player Yeah, okay. Anyways, yeah, I did love massive silver helm charges full of those. That was great at any rate The real problem to me with this unit is actually is a pretty expensive army and this guy actually doesn't have a real defined role Right, right And so like the banner could have actually had an interesting role To supplement some units. I'm actually kind of glad it doesn't because I think there's too much synergy in this book But it doesn't and so Because of the nature of the thing It's funny. You remember when they took have you went into legends and read all of the old banners like even gives all the old army bsbs You know where there was like dedicated models and they legended all of them, right? Yep. Do you remember what all those do now? I remembered what they did before when they were good And then I also remember what they did when they changed them to be worthless for their points As a commanding scroll, I don't know what they did when they rewrote them as legends that we've never heard about since They all have a mortal wounds pop on them That's what they really. Yeah, they're this they're this rule All of them are just like They're just like pop a thing and and do mortal roll a dice. Maybe something cool happens. Yeah, they're all So they literally just imported those legends rules This is a little bit stronger and a little bit more like it's more wounds Because most of those are just like a single mortal wound but you about the same area, but they don't have the turn Counter on it. You just like do it Yeah, so yeah, it's pretty funny Yes, he is going to look awesome on a display board though Like if you've got a display board, you don't have this guy on the top of like a castle What are you doing with your life? Come on now Yeah, okay Uh cool, uh the venari lord regent the lord Maybe the most beautiful model in the range. Maybe Could be been waiting 10 years for a model like this. So gorgeous solid hero. He frees up spells for your army So let's break this dude down real quick He has a his purest aether quartz ability, which as long as he has aether quartz of any kind He gets neg one to be hit And he has plus one to cast for his spell, which is greater power of heish, which is a really good spell His uh regent sword is a sun metal weapon And so does sun metal stuff and so can benefit from power of heish and greater power of heish or whatever Well, he has the rule, which is what matters. Yes, not everything Correct, we'll talk about that in a minute. And yes, he is a wizard. He can do one spell And which is as I said with you know a single cast Uh with plus one to cast and he is greater power of heish is basically the same as power of heish Which is the your mortal wounds on sixes for sun metal weapons now trigger on fives Um, however, he can do it to d3 units Which is fantastic, uh because it means that Hey, okay Come here, they've been can yeah Inspiring the chat the dog attacks fine. That's fine. Uh, so he can free up your other units to cast right? That's the key like if you drop smells or fail to cast he can he can cover them on the backside or You can do him first Cover multiple units and then those units can be freed up to do other spells Yeah, it's so funny. You said that I would do it the other like I would do it the way Where he's the backup that covers Units that that missed their spell, right? Um, you get to go Seems like a gamble otherwise sure Yeah, uh, yeah, so it's like he is a really good mobile defensive character Um He's 150 points. There's absolutely no reason I would want to find that deeply offensive Uh, but you know, yeah, he's uh Yeah, um, well, well, I was about to say while we're doing the dog attack out dog attack There we go. Okay. Go ahead, martin Um, oh the only thing better than dog is it would be a cat butt speaking to martin screen We are not a cat family Mike horkey is sleeping on a rug out of view not going to wake her up Um, now this this is a perfect vehicle for crs goading arrogance. Yep. Um, it's first fall One of our um, and tom and I have talked about this many times One of the scenarios which hurts lumen at the most was a place of arcane power as we did not have Fast heroes and now what do we have a 14 inch three plus save? I get it. CR could be one plus save if you really want it Casting character Who can take magic items and just just be fun fast and just get there right away have trips to back them up and Yeah, um goading arrogance in particular just just I know cr was not the new stuff that we covered, but it's like that You will see this often as I cr general Yeah, I think this guy's great. He really is by the way if you like the dog and think it's cute hit like Uh, so there you go. Otherwise, you'll make the yes. Otherwise, you'll make the dog sad. You don't want to make the dog sad Uh, okay Oh, what does the dog think of the venari lord regent? What do you think of it? Wolf she likes it. I can tell. Uh, yeah, this guy's fantastic Like what a wonderful hero six wounds is actually great. Like it's it sounds silly Like I I'm surprised he wasn't seven wounds, but the fact that he's out of catapult range is what's important He can't get you like one catapult Uh bop will Yeah, I hope this herald's a change for storm cast because I'm tired of storm cast like Like immortal like it's basically the effect of like space ring heroes Having only five wounds like I would like to hope I would like to see them all get a windsbub When when they rewrite that storm cast book again Like if this is a this is an elf on a giant sort of llama cougar Um, I know it's called a light coarser steed, but it's still like a large Like mount and it's only six wounds Lord sell salston You gotta pump those numbers up Yeah, I see somebody specifically hit dislike just for the dog. That's very mean That's a very mean. That's gonna make the dogs very sad sad dog though. Yeah The the dog is sad about your dislike. Uh, anyways, yeah, I think this guy's awesome. Uh, I mean he, uh I think he'll show up. I agree with you and a lot of sire lists I think that's where he's super strong, but he's super strong in a lot of different places The fact that he's so mobile can be super defensive is covering for your other units at the same time with his spell Right It's good. He's great Yeah Yeah, uh solid value. I think I think we should do a sidebar and do a side-by-side comparison with the 150 point slanesh hero uh Which one okay, so, um, all right Elenia and elithor the twins Possibly one of my favorite war scrolls in the book. Yeah, super cool war scroll No doubt eight wound hero with a three up save and a six inch move it can be allied into anything Any sorry any order army any order? So which is neat And can give them boat it can give bonus command points if they're hanging out near your general Which i'm not sure they will be very often but still they could um the Altari or altiti or whatever his sword is Has a this interesting damage mechanic that is set to the turn Same with the so there's a lot of things in the lumeneth book that are set to the turn number for just like no I don't I don't know why the lumeneth care about the progression of the turn order, but okay unreliability and Complexity that's why Yes, uh, but yeah exactly like it just feels unnecessary like this guy could have just had a two damage weapon or something It would have been fine. Um, but sure. So his damage goes one two three four five that being said It's like you're not going to get that four and five barely ever because games don't really go to Turn four to turn four and five very often But if you get into four and five things can get messy real quick Yes, it is a two cast wizard Uh, which two cast scenario two cast scenario. Yes, absolutely true um And uh, it is a very interesting ally It does have this really complicated teleport mechanic in its sudden trans location that I really don't love Uh, just the way it works like because the way it's structured is at the end of the combat phase Roll a die if this model fought in that phase. Okay, so not a may must right right and If the roll is less than the number of the current battle round So again, like the third trigger of current battle round on this this guy, but it is less than not less than or equal to Okay, uh less than the current battle round or Less than the number of wounds allocated to this model Okay, then heal d6 wounds then remove it from the battlefield then Set up the model anywhere on the battlefield more than 12 inches away from enemy models if it's impossible They just leave but don't count as being slain What's in all that is holy it is a forced heal teleport like it can force you to literally pull them out of combat, right? They could be in combat you fought It's like turn three. You roll the die. Maybe they took no wounds Maybe they're unwounded right now, right? But you're all one or two and they're like one or two You have to pull them out of that combat and go teleport them somewhere else on the board 12 inches away from enemies Could be real good. Maybe there's an open objective. It's fantastic. Could be real bad. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead, Martin No, no, so I was saying it's like I I do actually I actually like this rule like I get it It's unreliable like that that it's it's not quite competitive like but that that's not the point So like reading their story and everything or it's like so The sword and and just like the brother can get carried away like he's he's getting too crazy in combat And she pulls it. Yeah, right, but the sister's supposed to be like the calm collected one But she also saves him in a way that is equally as impetuous as the brother. Sure. And I and I like that But yeah, I just like as comp like first of all this thing is just worded weirdly, right? Like and it almost guarantees that if you fight at all In the late game, you're going to get bailed out. Yeah, and I don't necessarily like that Um, like you could still have to teleport if like in another way, but it's it's Turn five like if you fight you're getting your almost guaranteed What what I don't like about it is that You can't hold objectives with this unit Right, sure because if somebody's gonna just like charge you fight you and then there's a high probability chance You're just like, okay. Bye If right, yeah, right, but at the same time If you get into a unit or if you're on an objective late game and somebody gets into you They may not walk away from that Yeah, sure because you're swinging around like a four damage sword Sorry, my quirky wanted permission to go upstairs for some reason. You're fine. All good Yeah, and and not just like an insignificant one like a four attack four damage short Yeah, sure like they bring 10 they they bring 10 models in on you. That may not be enough for them. Sure Yeah, it's it's it's a very interesting piece. I I legitimately don't know how to rate this thing I think it's super cool like flavor wise. This is one of the coolest Sort of units they've ever made and I think this would be a really interesting model to play Right, uh, like it's gonna do weird things that are very surprising to your opponent So this is what I was like. So I'll just open this way. I like them. I like the stock, right? Like I like the unit I'm in And in general I would try to Include this unit in every army that I build just because I like what's going on. I like having this weird late game Powerhouse because that's what it is sure Like this is this is the unit that I stick with a unit of 10 sword masters and I push up on an objective And I say I dare you to come in right um and We'll talk about sword masters here in a minute But I think that like alone. I think these twins are a liability But you stick them with a unit of sword masters and I think there's real gas in the engine I can see that. Yeah, because because the sword masters actually compliment and shore up the weakness of the twins In every way possible like in both attack profiles in in all of those things um so um a few things and it was pointed out to me that apparently um elves uh of many of many Shapes and sizes like using the turn number Like doc and idk use the turn number and some of their mechanics I think um luminous triple down on it like we're we're seeing multiple war scrolls Just like require the turn number to be a part of what they do. Maybe that's a bit too much um And is this the part where we can we can talk about? My gripes about keyword locked certain things for sub factions or do we want to wait for another named character about that? Uh, well, we covered the light. I don't have the actual named lord regent. We just passed him So yeah, it's a fine time to talk about. Yeah, we should talk about the fact that all of the name characters are keywords Yeah So so we're running into this thing now And I think it's more acutely felt in luminous than other armies excluding maybe storm cats, but maybe um with gardus on the horizon We may be seeing an end to that But there's just certain things where I feel like they should just add a rule saying that this unit cannot gain Subfaction keywords because there are things in luminous like teclis the light of a therian who can gain any faction keyword Um, but there's certain like severeth like isiometrica Um, yeah the the the ward we specifically have the warden of eumetrica and yet cannot benefit from any of the subfaction rules that eumetrica offers Sure, and it's it just it feels strange like we we have this sort of um Uh exaltation of the symmetry of the eight great nations that um, presumably will become those subfactions like the other two um And it's like why are these eumetrica? like Instead of having a rule saying they can't gain It was a weird choice to like it feels like this decision To corral the power of the unique characters away from the subfactions By locking them all to the one sub faction. They could gain nothing from rules wise Yeah, and it's not just with luminous like we see with every underworlds warband Gains the if if that army has subfactions they are locked to Like we haven't seen the war scroll yet for the obr warband But I would put money down saying that they're mortis praetorians and so on and so forth sure The weird part about this book is that it's locking like that's fine Sometimes those things get locked into subfactions where it's like, okay, they can still play they still can benefit Hagnar Hagnar Yeah, we're going to be unlocked into Hagnar is not a bad thing, right? Like I mean, it's a thing It's definitely not a bad thing It's just a thing Whereas like in this book it's weird that all of the characters regardless of like whether they seem to be more Huracan type characters or or whether they are allerith sort of stone people or whatever, right? That they're all hard locked To Yometrica to literally a sub faction and to a set of rules That they can that they just gain nothing from Right Now we should state they still keep their other type rules like as has been pointed out elonia and elithor still have our still Scenarii So they can still contemplate Right Eclipse rotation, right? Absolutely later on we'll talk when we talk about um the uh The severate about severeth right the spirit of the wind he still has huracan Right, it's just you can't put him in elumnia or helos Sorry helan and like he can't ever get the bonus attack for being in combat Or anything like that because he's always stuck to Yometrica a sub faction that again just does nothing for him Yeah, right Now it's it's um and someone said oh this might be a sign of third edition. No, they've done this like it's they've done this Since I think gardus Um excluding characters which aren't sub faction like like teclis and the light of atherian don't have faction keywords So I'm sorry sub faction keywords, but like gardus. I think is the first one the first non cameras of sigmar Special character in he's the first special. He's the first special character I think in age of sigmar to have a sub faction keyword, which is not the box art sub faction Right if they have a sub faction keyword at all. That's incredible Yeah, it's it's crazy how much we've been hardlocked to single to the sort of banner banner faction as it were. Yeah, yes, right, right Yeah, yeah Um and can I just say one more thing since we skip lyrior? I'm like, I yeah. Yeah, we didn't talk about lyrior. He's the named lord regent He's two hundred two points. He's um, I am I am just tired of the one attack weapons Um, I I think we need to break from the verisimilitude idea that that one dice roll for an attack equals one swing of a weapon Like I think because that's what I think people hooked up on on the con garkets I think it's okay for like something like that and stop me if i'm wrong after this vance because i'm talking about gargants Um to swing x times at lower damage than to do one god zilla size dice roll that still equates to zero half the time yeah, it's It's an extra thing on there. He's not really meant to be an offensive piece, but sure Right, I get what you're saying. It's completely right. It's weird to see the one lance attack when like everything else isn't structured like that. So sure Yep, okay, let's keep moving All right, scenario lore seeker Uh Best hero in the history of aos. I have that written here. Uh, let me check my notes Uh, yes, that is correct. This is the best hero that has ever been Can I jump in real quick the game? Sure try to jump I like we move by this quickly and I I want to call this out Um, yes, they have the scenario keyword alania and elithor Uh-huh They also have the venari keyword. They're the only unit in the boat that has both keywords Sure, that's fine. And so from a keyword soup standpoint from a triggering abilities from sword master guarding All like they trigger all the everything the command abilities the everything wonderful. Can we talk about this ridiculous guy now? This is the five minutes. Yeah That's fine. He's really good again best hero In the history of aos Yes This is a Six wound hero with a six inch move and a four up save He has a decently fine Ranged attack and his staff for no reason That makes two attacks on threes and threes neg two d three damage And a perfectly good sword attack with fours on two threes neg one d three damage. He's fine in combat But that is not why you take him Okay, uh He has this ability to gain a command point if our enemies with artifacts of power get killed near him. Who cares Whatever that those that should have been struck that rule should not be there. It doesn't need to be there It's silly that it's there He's a caster with no spell that is to say like he can just use arcane bolt and mystic shield and his Scenario spell obviously, but he doesn't have a war scroll spell. Who cares like like a clips Sure, sure like yes, for example He can be in your rotation as well uh, and uh This guy now, let's talk about the only thing on this scroll that matters This guy this guy Loan agent You can add one to save rolls for a text to target the model this this model if it's more than nine inches away from Every friendly or from friendly models. So he goes to a three up save if there's no other friendlies around Okay, it's fine Okay In addition That is the biggest in addition in this book Instead of setting up this model on the battlefield You can place it to one side and say that it's set up as a loan agent in reserve reserve unit If you do so at the start of the first battle round before determining who has the first turn You must set up this model on the battlefield anywhere that is more than three inches away three inches away That's it From any enemy units and not in your territory not in your territory If you set up this model within six inches of an objective that has no enemy units within six inches of it You gain control of the objective and your opponent cannot gain control of it while this model is within six inches of it Holy crap Oh, you have giants that count for as 45 models. I don't care. Cool. Cool story, bro. Yeah, I own this I own this. This is mine now. Look at me. Look at me I am the captain Okay So There are like this dude Can win games Almost on his own now. Let's talk about some things. I got a little bit. I'm gonna fly through this now I want you guys to take on it On the in the back of the book. He is marked as unique Okay, so you can only have one now. There is no tangible reason Why this guy is unique? Okay, by tangible reason, I mean it doesn't say this guy is a named character. That's what it says on everybody else Who's named? Let's look back at here. Elania and Elathor. Elania and Elathor are named characters that are a single model Okay All named characters say that All of them Okay, he does not Uh So is he supposed to be unique? I would argue. No, there's nothing Uh unique about him. Okay There is nothing unique about him. However, they realized that allowing you to take very late in the process probably Uh John Byer, they can use the their rules instead of the scenario rules And I don't want to get into that for gargants because that itself is a total nightmare But he's not using the scenario rules. He's saying I am within six inches of an objective So I own this now He's six inches of an objective where no one else is when he when he sets up. That's the trigger Okay, right. He did that. He already stapled over the scenario rules Those are no longer in play so the giants can overwrite the scenario rules all day long. He's like, haha too bad We're not using those rules. I he's like I already over ripped those. Yeah, congratulations I mean the key is that he ignores whatever claim rules are anyways right My so let's let's imagine we were in a scenario that could only ever be capped by battle line Let's say that that existed. He'd say no. This is my objective now. Correct Correct. He can already overwrite the normal rules because the way this is written He can do like this can only be taken by x. No, it can't if it can be taken by me Uh notably, right? Um On something like places of arcane power where you normally have a three inch claim zone He can just set up six inches away and take it. That's what my rules say yo I don't need to be within three inches to take your stupid thing. I'll take it at six inches Deal with that So it it is peak war hammer that so so like because this is the thing of the FAQ In the general's handbook. It says what name. Um, I'm sorry. It says what unique means Um, and the core rules it says what named character means, right? But in the description of pitched battle profiles, which took like the longest things for people to read it says These are now the same thing Where they are talking like over top of your worst roll points where it says this thing, right? And and so can this guy get a magic item or take a command trait? I don't know I probably not maybe yes. I don't know Like my point is he's not named specifically unless that text at the top of the points thing ties them together Because it says all unique characters are named characters and it effectively throws those together But right this guy doesn't have the statement that says he is a named character No, but it says that he's unique in the chart and if it says he's unique in the chart That means he is named Right, I think they just pulled this level lever instead of saying instead of writing out the text You can only include one lore seeker in your army They just say they just thought writing unique would do that for them. That is the I think this occurred so late in the process because they realized having multiples of these guys in your army Would just like you could it would become unbeatable Like if you could take multiples of these guys if that unique was a mistake, let's say the FAQ Let's imagine a world Okay, let's just imagine a world where they go Uh Oops all berries that shouldn't have said unique, you know, we accidentally misprinted it in the chart Now you can take multiple lore seekers knock yourself out. Of course. He's not unique. Right. It's not a unique guy Like yeah, you can they you can have multiples of them. Okay. Let's just imagine that happened I'm not saying I think that's what'll happen. I'm saying like let's just say that happens Dear god Fear this guy if you don't have two of these in your list, what are you doing with your life? No, there are so many scenarios. You'll just win at setup It would just be instantly gross So I pray to god. They don't do that now because You know what you do Is you do alumnia that can Pretty great. Yes, and you move your sword masters up on them or teleport them with teclis Or double move spell them or or or And then and then and bunker them with shrine of amnioc With et cetera et cetera, and they'll never that that that's silliness that was going around last week where it's like no one will do this Uh, where it's like you can do, uh, the bell and vortex and sanctum of ammum talk Um and penny and and and I mean no one will do that But it's the fact that it's possible is just Well Yeah, putting them on a bell with that's grinding and by the shrine then being ensire and double penning So you can have like plus five to your save so you're technically on like a neg to save. Yeah, sure. Yeah, and technically, uh, you could potentially also You couldn't set up on it, but if you were in your own territory, you could be on your shrine and be at neg one Because you're garrisoning and get an additional plus one to save yeah All of the well documented are the ways that you can put this guy on an objective and never lose that objective Yes, right. There are there are ways to protect him. Yes. He's only a six wound hero. Yes, of course. He's removable He's not immortal. He's not even close There's plenty of ways to kill him. He's not he is not a six wound hero. Stop If you've got blade masters near him, I understand. I know he they have blade masters He's a 12 wound hero. I understand anybody anybody masters you've got around Well, no 50 50 on average 50 50 They're going to take half of his wounds and so on average. He's going to go to 12 wins. Sure Now again, uh Here's what I will say about that about all that, right? Um The the trick with this game the Yes, this dude is removable and certainly there are some armies that aren't afraid of this at all because like They just happen to have the right like ranged power projection that they can go I see what you're doing there No, and they can like burn this guy down at such a range to just get rid of him early right Okay, fine right but But that isn't a huge number of armies honestly Okay, they can just like dump mortal wounds into him very early or hit him with enough High rent that he can't like penny his way out of it or whatever, right? um The trick with it is this game is often won by Like holding an objective for one turn longer than you should have right um And there are places where it's like can I keep the question you should ask yourself is Is there a way I can keep this guy alive until turn three? Right where it doesn't matter what bodies are on the objective with me. Can I bubble wrap him? Or whatever Right where I can just keep him alive until turn three in most scenarios If he's holding his objective till turn three and then you've got other things off doing the rest of the work It's a huge step towards victory Right So my uh So my point is is that That like first of all, I hope they keep the unique and I hope you can only take one Okay um The we just want to give him magic. I don't understand what man dollies is answering their page three of pitch battle of ghp Can only be included one. Yeah, of course. We know that I don't I don't know what you're answering there man dollies You'll have to tell me like nobody nobody was arguing you can take more of these guys I was saying imagine a world where you could right? Like where they where they where they say unique was a printed in error because he doesn't have named or anything No, people want to give him magic items because it's like yes I think you'd like it would be neat to give him magic items or whatever sure that would be fun Right because he's not it would but that open like my point is it's going to open up a new space because this would be the first unique non-named character Right that we have in the game and and the reason that He's like that is theoretically because again, I argue they they realized he was too powerful And they needed to cap him and we don't have a way to write zero to one Right Other than saying unique That's it Right, we don't have like a little entry like we used to have in our old war hammer fantasy books That said how many of the unit you were allowed to take Right Yeah, yeah uh No, but I don't have any other comments about this guy. I really like it the celestine prime is a unique named character I've seen multiple people say this go read his war scroll. I literally shared it on twitter today The celestine prime is a named character. It says it right there. His name is the celestine prime That is his name The lion of sigmar. Okay. Anyways Get out of here with that No, and to cam baby tumbo that crap. I already I've already been there. All right. Go ahead. Go ahead, martin No, I said some people say it's a lore seeker and I keep or no This is this is the the apology for the original lore master of howas and Maybe they overdid it but apology accepted I love like I love everything about like when I first wrote lists I was like I won all the lore seekers and all the blade lords and I just want all of that And I you know and obviously better judgment won over and I diversified my lists and stuff like that but like If I could just go with all that I probably would do that I just love it I love all the toys and all the fun stuff and the spells and the fighting and the magic and Yep Yeah, so at any rate this guy's real interesting like he's a fantastic tech piece and at only 160 points That's why it's not that there aren't more powerful heroes or something like that like the tech on this guy is crazy Yeah, for what he allows and like there will be w's you will put on the board Simply by this guy existing regardless of whether or not he's allowed to take magic items You know, even if he stays completely unique Even if they they ruled it like the pitch battle profile statement that occurs over top of the points This is unique things count as named and blah blah blah whatever Like that you will still put some w's up on the board solely because you've got this one guy in your list Because he will hold a point he will be blade lord guarded You'll bubble wrap him and it won't matter You know because the just your opponent will not be able to take the objective off of you I was corrected in the comment. By the way um blade lords It's on a two plus and on a five four plus so Uh 12 is not the right answer It's like You know a lot lot lot more depending on how many wounds of sword masters you have Yeah, it's it's a lot Yes Uh, he's again. I I stand behind to my statement. He is the best hero in the history of aos Uh, there you go Okay, cool. Uh, good stuff great tech piece. Uh, please stay unique Please don't break the game and fix that fix that Okay So there we go Little wind mage, uh, he's real fast You know six inch move five up save he gets a little better against shooting He can like knock arrows back at people which is funny and cause mortal wounds He makes uh, when he makes wind chargers, uh go faster if they start near him Real near him like super near him Which is cool And uh, he's a wizard. He actually has a pretty interesting spell His spell is kind of cool. This is the first spell I've seen written like this There might be another one that exists somewhere, but I don't remember any of the spells structured exactly like this So maybe that maybe the chat will know um But like the way his spell works is it has a casting value of five If successfully cast in your next shooting phase You can pick an enemy unit within nine of the cast or enroll a die on a two-up. They take d three mortal wounds That's interesting because that allows him to like cast it somewhere Zip forward 16 inches and then hit the dude. He wants to hit with it Like he doesn't have to be in range in the hero phase Yeah, but it's nine inches. No, I understand. It's it's a danger close spell Uh, but I mean it doesn't matter for reasons we'll talk about later in the combat phase when he's not engaged He's gonna go six inches backwards but like he's Like I I think it's a bad spell. I think I think I think patently it's a bad spell because it still has to double check to see if it'll fire off that d three Yeah, at too close range Yes, it's a two plus at close range at nine inches range. Like I just This guy's a five up save hard pass Uh, I think this guy goes to shows up in a ton of lists because of what he enables reasons. I'll talk about in a minute Like I agree. I agree. Like I he was like him with a set of wind chargers is in one of my lists So I I think that like Like I don't think he's terrible. I don't think I think that he shows up in lists But I think that his week. I think the weaknesses that he has inherently make him very unappealing to me Uh, let me I want to answer a question because this is an interesting conversation. This is going around So so John Byard said would anyone be seriously upset if models that were unique weren't allowed in competitive play? Yes, absolutely. I would be furious Furious beyond reason as would like a lot of people because in your head you're thinking of of you're thinking of stuff But like I'm thinking of the mask Half of my heroes in sladesh are unique The mask silask like no, I bought those things because I want to play with my toys We're not we're they're not all archae on and stuff like that the mask is a perfectly reasonable Unique named character and they're cool and they have flavor in character I want these characters in the world and I want to pilot them it's need to pilot a named character and There's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed in competitive play why we shouldn't be able to find a home and balance them That's just that's a complete overswing Like I'm not trying to call you out john I'm just like there's there's a there's a ton of interesting named unique characters in the game that aren't like Gamebreaking many of which are never taken most of them are honestly competitively bad Right, like light of authoritarian comes to mind Like there's only a few that actually are even worth putting on the table in competitive play And in a tournament I want to be able to take the mask the mask has been it is the single best unit in sladesh Period. Yeah, and it's not because it's overpowering. It's because it offers unique things It's the only freaking unit I have there's a reasonably priced for what it does Right, so it's funny. It's funny that you bring this up because Um, like there's an event that we regularly attend where you can't take unique characters, right? um, and actually like it forced me to take a double take with my lumineff because Over most of my heroes that I take in my lumineff armies that I fill Like on one of my list building are named heroes. That's not true anymore That's not that's not a true fact of that that event you're talking about Well, it was at least at one point. Yeah, but that's that's raw. That's not holy events and raw is very different Like holy events used to to not have um named characters and like that years ago four years ago. Yeah It's true. I'm just acknowledging that those events do exist. They have existed and And but the reality is is it's it's difficult if that is the rule Because it changes the entire way that many armies play 100 percent. Yeah, sure and like and so Like I may have a perfectly viable army competitively if I have a name character if it is not a name character It is not a character. I it is not an army. I can take to an event Yeah, sure. So anyways, that's so at any rate people you gotta be distracted there But let's go back to the windmage. He's cool 120 point wizard. He's fine super fast. I like his speed Um, like I'm down with him. He's cool I like what he enables I think he's fine Well as you take the wind lore if you're not if not taking tech list you uh, you have your get wind of the wind Lore here. Yeah, he's he's one of you. He's your teleport enabler, right? Because that's where the new teleport spell is in that lore Or or techless sure of course, but I think yeah, you don't go ahead No, I was saying it's like if you're not taking techless. This is your gateway into the wind lore for your army. Yeah Sure Yeah, and I my honest answer is I think this dude will show up in a lot of lists not because of what's printed on this scroll But because of the the tool is the tech he's enabling enabling the teleport Enabling the wind the wind chargers to go faster Right it like he's just doing a lot of other stuff that isn't written on that scroll And like yeah, sure he's five wounds on a five up save but in that army if you're shooting at this dumb dumb After turn one or two like okay like You know what I mean like that's that's fine And so John's point is should a model ever be so powerful that its inclusion warps the power level of affection And allows it to play in a competitive space. It's a great discussion I think that's honestly a whole show like what should be the power level of unique characters That's a great show. Well, can I can I jump in? I want to flip that question I we don't have to engage it, but I want to ask instead the question of should unique abilities ever be Exclusively available on named characters that aren't on other units sure a great thing to talk about in that show Yep. Yeah, there you go Okay, uh like there's there really is this this that that the interesting thing that the lore seeker triggered there could be like a A whole show in and of itself because the presence of named characters and how prolific they are does raise interesting questions about how they get used Okay Oh, we're here at last. We're here at last boys tuck in Severeth Lord of the seventh wind The fox spirit in every furry's moment of celebration that they have representation in this game So, uh, that's not said with judgment You live your life You do you uh so The unique one is a hero The non unique one is not a hero very important to understand I'm good. I only have Severeth scroll up because we can just talk about you can just subtract two abilities from him and get the name He is the most mobile unit In the history of age of sigmar maybe ever Martin i'ma tell you a story All right Martin, I'm sorry. Martin. I you know back in the day. I used to play 40k. Do you know that? Um vaguely, but yeah Long time ago. I used to play 40k I played during third edition. I had imperial guard army and you know what I loved in imperial guard, martin um I'm gonna say rough writers You're not wrong, but also tanks. I love tanks Tanks are cool, right? Like who doesn't want like tanks tanks are sweet. They have big giant cannons on them right And one of my favorite tanks was the basilisk and the basilisk Had the super long gun like it was the world war one looking long gun, right? Yeah, kind of looks like a world war one type tank Same kid so around today. I'm sure it is probably the same thing. No, it is it is cool It's a great kid. I I love that tank. I might go buy one and paint one sometimes just for fun anyways, it uh that gun had a range of 120 inches 10 feet martin 10 feet Yes 10 it is all it is only surpassed by the death strike, which I believe has a range of 96 feet There you go. It didn't didn't exist when I was there 10 feet 10 10 feet man, and I used to think what a funny thing that is that's hilarious I can shoot tables at the tournament next to me. I can just start artillery shelling adjacent tables right and effectively the range was just unlimited and I love that the normal fox so the normal fox spirit not severeth his maximum move If you put everything into him He can move 121 Enches, that's right. He can outpace the basilisk He can go from bell to bell Like he can go across the table back and into the midboard before he stops in a single round Right How wonderful Uh, so there you go Uh, I now that's obviously an insane thing. It's never really going to be that but I thought that was a fun little factoid Uh, there you go. People are asking you the death strike the death strike missile is a meme It's apocalypse only I believe Um, I or you can use it in 40k now you use it to shoot someone's figure case in the parking lot Sure, of course. Yeah Anyways, let's talk about separate themselves. Yeah, 24 inch move five up save 10 wounds the uh, non named version the non hero version Has eight wounds still in a five up save Does have a five up after save. Let's talk about the rules with this guy though that matter because this guy does a lot of stuff So many rules In addition He subtracts two inches from the distance enemy models can pile in to a minimum of one while they're within three of this model Uh, remember he can pile in in any direction Uh, so he can like charge in and then pull out to three inches and make it so like if he does it right The guys on the edge can only pile an inch and he can kind of cause a traffic jam But people not being able to like pile around the people he's locking in effectively Like most of these guys he does have a three inch range And so he himself can still strike people if he's just towing the line at the edge of the three inch line Uh, so that's a that's cool Uh, by the way, we haven't I don't know if we've officially announced it, but the pile in wars have begun Yeah Begun the pile in wars now Yeah Someone asked, um, how does he move on to 21 just very quickly? There's all kinds of spells and other tricks that this army has just to like double move all kinds of crap just Yeah, zero It's being under the speed of haish and then using the helon command ability and being in the battalion is the short answer Yeah, I don't feel anybody like it's true. You'll have to trust me. The math is correct. Um So, uh, when he in addition Uh, you roll a dice for each enemy unit that's within Three inches this model when it makes a charge move on a three up they take one more to wound and get neg one to hit So that's cool. So he can when he charges into people He'll also give them neg one to hit further making sure that he can kind of stay alive if he ever does go into melee Which doesn't necessarily have to for reasons. We'll talk about a second Uh, he can scour so, uh, at the start of the charge phase You can pick a faction terrain piece and roll a die on a two up. You destroy it, but then he can't charge one inch Uh, yeah has to be within an edge of him. Yep So, I mean it like sorry obr your obelisks are just dead because like I would absolutely destroy the obr obelisk Because I could probably float him up to within an edge of that thing and still keep him really safe Because of the way they always put that thing right in the center of the board, right? So like that thing's dead But you know for the most part most terrain pieces are pretty bunkered in people's territory Uh, and so it's not gonna be super often used and the fact is it doesn't like pick up the terrain piece It just removes its special rules So like who cares if they destroy your idk boat like all right again Idk boats are annoying because they're just a physical object in the way Not because they sort of might do hit you for a mortal wound one sometime uh After he makes a normal move included This I love this. Okay after this model makes a normal move begin parins Including if it moves at the end of the shooting phase close parins, which is not a normal move Like what how win that's not you can't include that normal moves is a defined thing in this game It is And then they just said and also for no reason also jack in this other weird movement. He has Like which is also an FAQ question. Yeah, which I mean they're treating that other movement as normal move Which means they they can't move within three inches of an enemy It can't like it it it adopts all the limitations of normal moves It just didn't need to be there for this but anyways, so he can float over people pick an enemy unit Uh, he rolls a die on a three up. They take d three mortal wounds. So that's cool Yeah, uh spear of the wind at the end of the shooting phase this model can make a normal move of 12 inches But it cannot run or retreat In addition, this model can't in addition says like 17 times on this roll This model can retreat and still charge later in the same turn. So that's cool Which is actually really good because if you did want to keep bouncing people as they start trying Like you're holding them at an inch pile in and they're getting stuck So he can keep floating out and coming back in and hitting them and then sneaking out So he can kind of be bouncing off of them like this slowing down holding limiting their movement things like that, right? Keeping other pieces safe like he can kind of do that And then you could have like some windriders at three inches and they can't really get to them And the windriders also have a three inch reach blah blah blah blah. There's a lot of complicated stuff going on there Again, this is what i'm talking about with skill floor because if you want to use that hurricane and stuff well You have to like understand this like razor sharp positioning be using all these pieces exactly correctly Piling into the exact right place with the entire thing then retreating out then blah blah blah and so on and so forth The severeth cannot use helon the regular Guy can use the helon ability That's who that's why I said the normal fox can move 120 inches Uh, so uh, and then in your hero phase this model is within 12 inches of a friendly windmaze. You can also heal it so cool neat um The Yeah, that's because the normal version of him by the way loses the destroy faction terrain and loses the i do D three mortals on three up when I move over people Is also two fewer wounds one less rend on the bow Yes, he has only rend neg two and eight wounds instead of rend neg three and 10 wounds Oh, you know what gentlemen and this severeth himself is locked to yametrica There you go. Okay. Yes final thing to say this dude has a bucket load of rules. He is 300 points uh What's take um, I do appreciate that it's more um, it's not a A Like avalanor and the normal spirit of the mountain Yep, the spirit the normal spirit of the mountain I'd argue is one of is the most overcosted War scroll in this faction Like just the value that I think avalanor brings to the table is light years beyond what the generic version can do I agree. I've said I think I am on record saying I think avalanor The named one needs to go up 10 or 20 points and the non named one needs to come down 10 or 20 points Okay, continue. No it needs to come down like much more than that But anyway, um severeth and the wind spirit like the value between them is much more nuanced and you you gain Like it's it's a much the tougher decision to make and I appreciate that I appreciate how they made the two scrolls relatively similar in power There's real decisions to be made between these two Units and I like that and in fact like Severeth hasn't shown up in any of my lists, but the generic fox house Yeah, so I mean we need to address the elephant in the room with this guy Tom's video froze, which is funny because he looks very contemplative now. We can still hear you fine. Tom You just your video froze, which is funny. Uh, that's amazing My guess is your your laptop's about to die because you forgot to plug it in No, I'm at 100% okay. Yo, that's where that usually happens Anyways We need to talk about the elephant in the room, which is the off-turn 12 inch float that both he and his little non-named brother have Meaning that it becomes almost impossible to charge this guy in melee Uh, we all hope together that they FAQ that of course because yes, this guy can float 12 inches in every shooting phase Not just yours That should be FAQ to only be your shooting phase of course of course but Otherwise, yes, he becomes nearly impossible to charge because somebody moves up to within three inches Then you float back 12 You're out of charge range now. It's just that that's the math folks Uh, no You could just write it may or may be charged by marauders No, because they you're still not within 12 to declare the charge But you may be within 12 to declare the charge of another unit and then you just roll the hard dice A fair point a fair point prosecutors and I think the corruptus or war hydra Yeah, the unit said the war stomper mega gargant that I always build has a 3d6 charge. I can declare out to 18 inches. Yes As it stands now if they keep that you can float in every phase if they keep that like if that's FAQ he's immune to melee He's very very Immune is strong, but it's not that wrong Like it's close right like You have to track him hopes. Yeah, you gotta start like trying to surround him and and just like Which I love the idea of like I don't hate that idea. Sure uh That's a funny question. Stephen Powell so per scale how far is 121 inches and how fast is that in real life? I wish we had that table Oh my god, that would be so fantastic if we had like because you could do the dnd You know sort of things everybody has fun doing that of like how fast you actually running Well, six inches would be 30 feet equivalent, right? If that's what we're saying if that's are we just using the dnd metric here? So six inches no five inches would be 35 inches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I guess normal humans move five inches So we're saying that's a 30 foot move, right? If we're just going to use the dnd metric, right? Right? Okay, it would be 300 feet at a hundred move Uh, well if it's five inch base then basically times that by five Right, let's just just keep it simple. Yeah, so he moves 150 feet Are you taking up? Yeah, whatever doesn't work. Yeah, it's 120 divided by five We haven't even gotten to the windriders yet times 30. That's the math Okay, so it'd be super fast. He runs real fast Yeah, so yeah, she got to go on a little fox hunt and try to trap and surround him and it's very hard uh so the um The answer is We hope they change that Competitively, I think this guy's interesting. I'm not sure like assuming they fix the float 12 inches Okay Assuming that is fixed as it should be then a Uh, that's a that's a good point. I think people people are working out the math and yeah, exactly You've started something here. Okay at any rate, uh, assuming they fix that I honestly think this guy's Probably fine Like it's weird for me to say that But he has a lot of rules Like he has a ton of weird rules but His damage is like it's okay. It's not You know, it's fine It's 250 to 300 points Like it's doing the appropriate scale damage, right even shooting For what he is. Yeah, he's four attacks on twos and threes his rend is fantastic. Yes right and He has and he does d3 damage, which is very swingy, right? Uh, which so it's it's sort of unreliable damage um Yeah, I'm not sure that You know, I I think of this guy surprisingly Somehow I think this guy's probably okay. I I think he's good. He's real good But i'm not sure he's like He's not overpowered or over the top I think that a lot like I think it's easy to look at all these ridiculous rules. He has which he does have a lot But I think that like if your army does have any kind of shooting and again if the 12 inches off turn gets fixed It's not that hard to chase down this guy and kill him because like He's got to go somewhere. His bow is only an 18 inch range Right, he does actually have to be pretty danger close to shoot at you So if like he's trying to come in and I mean, that's not true because he's gonna shoot and move So he's always gonna move to 30 inches. Yeah, I understand that like you can it might my point is the target He wants to shoot at he might not be at 18 inches for Right, but he's gonna move up 24 Shoot 18 and then move back 12. I understand that My point is if he's trying people the way people would want to use him four shots into a unit of 30 dudes It's not it's not cutting the mustard. Who cares? No, right? The way you want to use this guy as shooting heroes or something like that He's gonna remove strategic pieces. So he's on threes and threes effectively in that case, right? Yep. Yep and You know, like at that point his damage is again, it's good. It's not bad. It's good Uh, certainly against a four up save. He'll he'll resolve a decent issue amount of damage but Like then so let's say he's got to come up to like 12 inches to get your hero because you you've bunkered him six inches Behind the line, right and then he floats 24 inches away There's plenty of stuff in the game that will go catch that Sure Right. Yep. Yep So like yes, he's tough to catch And If you have shooting if you yourself have shooting This guy's in like You know, he's in danger Right Uh, like obr catapults or like destroy my Biopolis will show you foul villain Like at five up save is going to be a bad time for him when those five damage rocks start coming in Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm Uh that make the same attacks he does on on almost the same profile only five damage and no render the same twos and threes four attacks or whatever Uh, yeah, he's like despite how much this dude was hyped and I think he is good He's one guy Right, yeah, he's one guy on a five up save with a five up after save Like no, I think he is annoying Right, he will frustrate people and some armies will be much more prone to being frustrated by him So you're saying that he's gonna He's going to be a highly mobile Ranged attacking piece that will frustrate the opponent. Yeah So it sounds pretty like banging on all cylinders of him. Oh in restricting pylons To one inch sure if he wants to go get in melee, which again, is it it's he has some good features He may not he may not have a choice. Like he may be sure like somebody may come at him But all that to say that all sounds pretty MPE to me He very much could be very MPE. I think it will depend a lot on what your force happens to consist of right, yeah But yeah, I you know, he's I think he's Probably pointed correct He's gonna frust be frustrating But I think it's actually the right number of points No, I would agree with that It feels right it like I haven't played with him But it feels right just on on the read and knowing how he would play. Yes, and I agree keo will like Laugh at this guy because there's yeah, I can't he was like Oh, what do you got over there? Yeah, bring in the long guns. Let's get rid of this dude Okay, so yeah Yeah, uh, it it should be noted that he is not a monster No, he's not Um, so they can get cover And they can and they can stand on and he can stand on the shrine sure Because he is he is a hero Uh, he's not a wizard though. No, he's you've got to know. Oh, he's right. Yes. Yeah, if you Oh But he can he can stand on terrain, which is fun. He or he can garrison normal buildings That is true. He could go he could go hop in a building. Okay. Let's keep moving Huracan and wind chargers There we go. All right, battle line in helon incredible mobility Moderate range damage, but very hard to control good damage if they go all in I will point out that even outside of helon if you factor in the damage from their bow And then they charge and make their full attacks. They do more average damage against a four up save than a keeper of secrets I see no issues there. That seems completely reasonable I I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself with that one, but that math is uh fun um They their bow in melee does not get the helon bonus I want to be super clear here Okay, because like the it it will get the missile weapon when they shoot They will get it But they do not get the plus one attack with their Wind charger bow melee weapon profile because helon's ability specifically says missile weapons Missile weapons has a very discrete definition on this thing. It is this thing That's why it's under this this area called missile weapons Okay No, but now siri wants to talk to me Uh So, uh, yeah, that's fun slightly higher damage than a than a keeper of secrets for 130 points. It seems completely reasonable Uh, and they do have red donkulous movement shenanigans when you put them in the battalion. We'll talk about the battalion in a moment Uh, yeah, they're real good. We're we're not even three units yet. No, I know we're not a lot That's why we've got to keep moving These guys are good Best new unit that was introduced Super potent Again, they're damage as though even though I said it is slightly better than a keeper of secrets, which is true They their damage is still like, okay. By the way, what that is is about 7.15 or something like that all in Okay So it's not incredible just to lay that out, right Their bow does have neg 2 rend in combat because again, they turn their bow sideways. It's a kill shot That's why it's red too skill shot And uh, yeah, they can uh, they can move over terrain. Normally as they can fly they can also fly and become 16 if they start near Windmage and they can fly when they pile in they fly a lot is the point And um, yeah, and they ignore cover. Uh, yeah the Uh, the story I tell here all the time is in magic There was a creature called a wind drake Okay, and a wind drake was a 2 2 flying creature for 3 which is very unimpressive in magic And yet he became known as the wind drake And lots of different versions of 2 2 flying blue creatures for 3 got printed and they all collectively just got called windrakes Because oftentimes blue decks would win by simply controlling you and then pinging you for 2 with a wind drake every round and just slowly killing you Chinese drip torture style or whatever, right? Just good 2 2 2 2 2 and you're dead Uh, so sometimes even a humble 2 2 flyer can get there this guy I I love that in magic they were called wind drakes and it became wind drake hence win chargers Uh, there's no d on this worse scroll. My my worse scroll didn't come with a d. I don't know They don't have the d because They gave it to you so That's where This unit comes from It's after midnight we can Now um someone asked at the very beginning of the chat like I don't really have many thoughts on them They they play in a way that um, I like I really was like more of the combined arms the venari stuff like that That really hooked me this this plays in a way That just you you almost entirely play around your opponent Like the pilot the the pylon wars are currently Like they are winning the pylon wars. Sure. They pile out they they they pylon whatever direction they want instead of piling in the normal way With someone asked the very beginning of the chat like I want to say two or three hours ago Um, are these supposed to be like like mongols? It's like no, these are our allirian reveres Yeah, like they've been they've been bit by bit kind of remaking Some of the units from old high elves. These are your fast calf Yeah, yeah, that's that's allian reveres will be my counts as There you go For this unit. Yes Again one of the better units probably in the meta period right now They have everything they need to win between their their hurrican ability and their speed. These are an incredibly incredibly powerful unit Like yep to control the battlefield with their movement um, and because you know, so one of the uh, invents is like army how to You know lose friends or whatever one of hit one of the tactics that he proposed was moving up three of these units Like to to hold objectives or to screen or whatever and like you'll get into one of them But even if you charge to all three as after that activation Yeah, that's usually because You double activate the other two just leave combat. Yep And they can do that all game right like that's the key got to think about imagine I have three units of of wind chargers Okay, I've got three units of wind chargers blocking your space to where you want to come forward to the objectives You charge all three of them Okay, it's your turn. So you get to activate first. Okay. I'll activate and I'll attack this one Maybe you kill that unit of five dudes. Maybe you don't maybe I'm in seer and I double penny them. So now they're a three safe Okay, so you don't kill all of them my turn. I activate the other two wind chargers. I pile away six inches So even with your charge you can't get back into combat against them, right? You'd have to have a three inch range weapon Which most people don't have like giants could still catch them Or six inch enemy wardens or six inch violent. Yes. Most units will just be like, oh, okay, and I just I walk away unscathed And you're like, okay, are you turn is your turn done? Awesome Now I'm gonna, you know move in such a way as to be a hindrance or not, right now I just put them back and we do it again Yeah, and we do it and you charge me and I just leave. Yeah, I just leave I just spend the whole game going. Nope. Nope. Nope and pulling them back And I'm just I'm limiting you to basically going nowhere every round Right and so that one hero or that small unit on an objective You just can't get there right because there's always this unit in the way That you're going to charge and then it'll just pile back six inches and stay out of each of you all game, right? And heaven forbid separate whoever is in there Who's nearby who could reduce your pile into one inch? Yep Because like I just really want to make sure we're driving this home Like I can alpha bunker you in with these guys sit three inches off your line. You charge me Like one maybe one dies. Maybe one doesn't the other two just leave six like leave six inches Right, and then on my turn I go back to three inches away And so you're locked in combat again, right? And so like I've made your move speed of your army three inches right Right because you can go back in Lock them in combat and then as soon as they would attack, you know Like and then pile of pile back out. It's just Hope you gotta be a rich weapon It's gonna be really frustrating. Yes, like that. This is what i'm talking about. This is how you This is this is like a key strat in my how to lose friends and alienate people army Right because meanwhile what i'm doing is holding all the points behind you Right and just winning the game like I set up my lore seeker He's holding a point is he's fine You know like again if you can shoot him down great you shoot him down but for melee focused armies like Whatever What happens if I get double and you just spent two turns killing five models, right? Yes, exactly because the set you get to pick one. Okay, you double me. I go back six inches. You're three away. You charge me again Okay, right activate one you kill one of my maybe you kill one of my units Maybe you don't you get one unit activation and when that one unit activation is done I'm going to take the other two combat Right, you cannot kill more than one unit per your per combat base period yeah Unless you get into more than three units at a time right and more than three Which by the way, I would make it so you're getting into three units at a time Like ideally you just take like five units of three or something layer. Sorry, you know, I'm saying five units Yeah, right. And yeah, you just let and you just layer them so that like you can continue to stagger and delay and yeah Yes Yeah, and as we said, they're always get better range and better rend in combat because they turn them sideways It's a kill shot. That's it's written in the lore. I'm pretty sure page page, uh 742 of the lumeneth realm lords book the Wind chargers turn their bows sideways for kill shots. Okay, and may I uh ballast ease Let's talk about the ballast ease Uh decent but uh reasonable ranged output probably compares poorly to sentinels But it's an easy throw in unit at a hundred points Uh, they have two attack space. They go to three if they don't move four in the battalion I don't think you'll take the battalion very often for reasons. We'll talk about a minute Um, the shooting is okay, you know 30 inch range is good. Certainly. That's very great Um, but you know threes and threes neg 2d3 damage Yeah Yeah, they're fine Right. I mean like Yep They get a six up ward save Okay Yeah Like it's fine They they can once per battle make somebody neg one to hit so it's more neg one to hit Uh coming out of these guys another opportunity at neg one to hit which is great This is again going back to the skill floor thing, right? Like being in shining company and knowing when you're gonna get charged and then making sure you know that unit's gonna charge You know, so you hit him with the neg one to hit something when they come into your shining company You're neg two or neg three because the other thing's going on because you've also got a big stone mountain guy Hanging around and he's giving him a neg one and suddenly like now You're holding your point with a neg three to be hit and that one turn that you really need to hold it for And if you execute that at the right moment and have the units in the right position Then you just win out of hand if you do it wrong You lose right like that. So I think this will show up as a winner In a lot of lists because it's neat to have a neg one to hit Kind of on tap for when you want it and it is the cheapest unit in the book Uh, yeah, I I just I I only I only just now realizes the cheapest unit of the book I love that that was like wait a minute. He's right. Yeah It is I mean like in building lists, I kept having a hundred points left or something round about that and I was like Well, the the scenario like the one like the one scribe is hundred points. It's And I that's sure. Yes. He is the other he is the other What would you rather what would you rather have an auto Eclipse every other turn or a or a crossbow that doesn't turn sideways in melee. I'm taking other things for my for my All right, you'll find 20 more points and put in 10 more bodies somewhere. Sure Uh, so anyways, yeah, but this is cool. I I think it's fine It's it's fine. Listen. It's fine. Yeah And it it does both of our things it does both of our things. It's not like Crazy, it's not blowing up units. It's damages again. It's you know d3. So fine like okay Doesn't break rules No, it's this is just like yeah, that's why it's so weird to talk about because it's just like, okay like a ballista Sure, it shoots like three times on threes and threes at neg 2d3 damage. So it's like Fair so it's just like a it's like a ballista Like a normal artillery piece that we would expect to see it in army Yeah, okay, cool. It's like, all right cool Yeah, it's fine Venari blade lords All right. All right. Here we go. Talk about them great swords Uh, we talked about why their rules around their swords are stupid. I stand behind that I don't care that they're actually probably not the best role, but that's fine Uh, they they have sun metal weapons, but they don't actually have sun metal weapons I know on the scroll it says sun metal weapons That's a lie. I really want to know the backstory to these like was that pulled at the last moment because it was too powerful I have to believe the answers. Yes in like late stage play testing They were like, oh, it's way too powerful if these guys can swing in in chopper mode with with sun metal weapons So we got to pull that Their main role is as the bodyguard for scenario, which I think is actually really good because as mentioned they do bodyguard Scenario models on a two up they take their their wounds, which is really which is really strong Especially because you have scenario like the lower seeker. You want to keep alive They're pretty average to low average on damage But you do get them as battle line one unit of these as battle line for each scenario hero And there are 120 points for 10 wounds on a four up save That has a four up shrug against spells and endless spells Which is cool I've already talked about their weapons and why their weapons are stupid and I hate having and I hate attacking with these things Yeah Can I say my thing? Yeah, go man Yeah, I because this has already been a long show and I don't want to drag it down too much but it was like this this this like I was I was hoping this was the opportunity for us to get a true hammer like glass cannon unit sure like This game already punishes elite infantry enough Yeah, like it's going to be five to ten bases in a unit like for their max 15. They're small bases Um, there's technique. They're technically slow. I get that you can ramp that up, but like I um I would think the balancing factor is building So much around them to create the delivery system like either between techless as the umbrella to protect them from damage And then buffing their speed Would be the balancing factor of saying let them doing ridiculous amounts of damage But they are a blade of wounds for a wizard Dressed up as samurai They are I was I wanted this to actually be the killing power Like a killing unit in the army and it's not and I Yeah I wanted more I they are worth the points of for the utility they provide as that bodyguard Absolutely like it is not it is not quite a bad unit um But yeah, I did not get what I wanted out of this unit sure Tom you like these guys right? I like the stock Yeah, sure like I just I I like them I do And like I wish that I could in good conscience run more of them Like the list that I that I'm leaning towards only has 10, but I'd love to run 30 of them I just I can't in good conscience like they don't do enough As martin is kind of saying to actually have to to fill all of those other roles right so But I think 10 are great, especially Either as a bodyguard to the twins Yep Or as a bodyguard to a lore like a lore paper Gentlemen, I added a slide since I shared this with you earlier. Would you like to see a tragedy in 2x? Sure A story of tragedy in 2x which I will call the pain of testing On the top of this slide which will come onto your screen in just a moment here Is the current profile of the venari blade lords and the slancor fiend bloods I use both of these because they're both instructive On the bottom of these two scroll on the on the bottom here I have the rules for the that unit as it existed when we got a preview of it in mayari's purifiers and the dread pageant And in both cases I think both this is the one place where lumeneth and slanesh Are completely combined We stand together that it probably would have just been a better unit Had it actually just been the thing that was there in the actual preview from The underworld's warband Meari's purifiers greatsword. He's like the greatest greatsword Because he has instead of dealing with this dumb perfect strike floria blows stupid nonsense Right, okay. Yep instead two attacks views and twos Two attacks twos and twos neg one one damage, but He has sun metal right So Doesn't have the rend two of the perfect strike or the auto hit doesn't have the big sweepy thing But two attacks on twos and twos neg one with sun metal meaning they can get super choppy and get pushed to like a five up Right by somebody like the lord regent sure Same thing by the way with the fiend bloods If we if we had just got like that profile of four attacks on forest three's neg two two damage for this for the fiend bloods Instead of the joke in the scroll we got Everybody would have been happy. This is what I call a tragedy in two acts, right? We all got excited By this little spoiling of information We're gonna get these dudes are cool Like okay, that would be a I love these guys. I am in Like that martin that would have been your hammer unit you wanted. Yes, absolutely And instead we like got to the real scroll and and they lost their way Right, they were just like no, let's give him this bodyguard rule And we gotta have something to shrug off the magic and the magic flag Yeah banners and and we'll have them bodyguard people and it's uh Well, I uh Doug Doug could tell you that um You know even even in warmer fantasies sword masters were always the secret police and guardians of the mage So it makes sense that they have like a mage bodyguard rule. I just wish that wasn't the main attraction, right? Yeah, get rid of the spell thing Like I think the right answer for this unit is get rid of the spell thing move the bodyguarding to a four up So it's not as reliable, right? Yeah Uh and then turn there get rid of their dumb dual weapon profile and just give them standard sun metal greatswords And move their points up to like 140 or something like that Done yeah, there you go Now you've got a great elite fun Uh hammer sword master unit Yeah Yep Okay, but that's not what we got Okay That said I still like them like sure I oh they're in my list. It's just yeah. Yeah like um I think we're all just sad that they're not what we were hoping they were Sure You know what my big like my my two stage tragedy was I really want to talk about battalions, but sure go ahead That's fine Was knowing was like realizing what their role was in the bat on the battlefield Yep And then discovering that checklist didn't have the scenario you are Sure, sure. All right uh battalions So New battalions we can wrap these through these pretty quickly. We're almost through this folks Appreciate everybody hanging in there. Hey, thank you all for hanging in there. You know what I like all of you You know what you could like this show just hit the button. Okay. So at any rate, uh New battalions the there you go good man the huracan temple which consists of severeth Or the regular dude, uh the wind mage and one to three wind chargers Units in that move six inches in every combat phase regardless of enemies. That's not what it says It says they count as charging every round as long as they're near a hero, right? What it means is that in every combat phase yours and the enemies Every combat phase regardless of where there's enemies near I could have some wind chargers Just standing over here all by their lonesome nowhere near an enemy in the enemy turn They just move six inches Because when you charge you always are able to pile in and when they pile in they can always move six inches And they can pile in in any direction. So Every combat phase every unit of wind chargers and the wind mage Assuming they're near a hero and then the all the wind mages and severeth in the fox if he's near a hero Just get to go six inches Well, thank you john in any drug Yes in any direction This is the best battalion in the book. It is the best battalion in the book. It's 180 points worth it every time This is like the core of every list I've built out with this army when I was just playing with armies I'm not gonna play this army, but like if I was boy, oh boy, would this be my foundation every time? Uh Ridiculous I am officially trying to get rid of a boggert because this is ridiculous Okay Uh, your next one is the star shard battery, which is the caligrave mr. Penn pointy shoes Uh and three to five ballastee Uh, and they get plus one attack as long as they're kind of near each other is what has to happen And they get plus one attack and their warding lantern becomes a five up Okay, yeah Neat if you're if you're heavy in on ballista, it could be a cool strat. I mean, it's very fragile That's the problem with with ballista, right? It's like it's five wounds on a low save with a six up feel no pain or a five up feel no pain If it's done. Yeah, and blade lord host ipsum lauram blade lord host ipsum Hey, I like it Sure, like I started here. It's funny. I started with a blade lord host Uh, because I love having Uh, you know, like I can slap a hero in there and there's a lot of scenario or venari heroes that I want to take well, I uh I just want to ask something and this I think this is where the hidden value of blade lords comes in um because of the the Introduction of the lord regent. We have that fast that fast cavalry hero which can tank a little bit um And another thing like we no longer need to lower our drops as much as possible Unless we're like kind of taking techless So the question then becomes it's like you you have to have a higher level of scrutiny on the battalions in general Before you want to take them. They could just be more bodies now the question The main penalty is that you don't you know, obviously you don't have the choice of who takes top of one But that that leaves you vulnerable to your heroes getting shot And you no longer have to worry about that as much because most of your heroes will be guarded by a unit of blade lords, which is not only bodies even if it's only five bodies But it's also cheaper than every battalion in the book Sure, right Yeah, and it should say that like if you're taking a couple Of those heroes like they are making the blade lords battle lines You are filling out both like probably critical heroes you were already going to take and battle line with the blade lord host Thank you very much to john and isaac. You were correct. I that is something I misread and put in my notes Which is they don't it doesn't cause an extra plus one attack. It's a replacement text So it just replaces the other text on the thing that gives them plus one attacks. They're still at three. Thank you Thank you everyone. I apologize for the confusion and as well. I don't think it's a bad deal like honestly If you look at the numbers most of the time I wouldn't do the precise strike most of the time I would do the a you're doing sweeping blows. So suddenly you're on threes re-rolling ones. Yeah, right Again, you know if 50 attacks off of five or 10 model or you know, so many whatever many models Re-roll ones. I mean that'll begin to do some work like that's not a bad bonus to have Yeah, because Like especially if I'm getting a lot of attacks it would not be unreasonable to spend the command point and get re-roll ones Sure, and so that means that every time those units are fighting, you know, you can save those command points or something else I don't know. It's it's it's fine. If you're going in on like if you're gonna have a nari scenario heroes, which by the way you are Right like yeah, just like that. So like one of them can go in here, right? And you and if you were gonna have like if you if you like the idea of bladelords and are willing to have two units of them And you're gonna have another venari or scenario hero in your list Right then Like obviously not in this battalion, but that means that both of those bladelord units you take our battle line Yep Right. I mean there you go like you've taken the two heroes you probably were going to take like a lore seeker and Somebody maybe the twins or something, right? Yep, and then you've gotten you filled out two or three battle line right there It's not bad. Yep with a cheap battalion It is a cheap battalion, which is nice. That is it like we cannot underestimate the value of a hundred point battalion like that is cheap, yo By by the standards of like most of these battalions Okay, yep Yeah, so they're fine I think a lot of the old battalions will still be used as well and we'll like the the traditional battalion will still be used as well You could get out a lot armies You could get out of Like this battalion with under 500 points Uh, yeah, that is true. Yes, that is true I mean that's That ain't bad No, the min cost for this is 440 points Right. Yeah, like there's not a lot of battalions in the game that you can get out that sheet. Sure Yeah, that's fair It is a very good point, Tom. It is a very good point Uh, and that could be 440 points again. That's filling out like Some actually valuable stuff Yep, okay Cool. Oh, jeez summary finally gentlemen. We come to it to the end of the show the summary of Uh, and the closing of the the lumineff 2021 Uh, here's my summary, but I I want I'll go first and I want you guys to wrap us up and then we'll call it tonight The new units spells and options make this a full army with multiple viable lists The new spell lure is has some nice options including a teleport which is great Because now with a teleport one of the things we didn't mention before but it's relevant that you can return units to shining company Right if they break out you can teleport them and reset them up in shining company I'm still not sure it's something I'm going to super do but it's a it's an option which is good Uh armies can now be built with extremely high mobility effectively the highest mobility in the game The army does lack some hammers, but it can do damage But it does have to rely on synergy and are multiple combined attacks The new terrain piece could be very impactful between the command points and the ability to control board space And there are a lot of potential FAQs. We are waiting for answers on It is a powerful army probably in the top six of the game It will have a lot of npe baked into it. It is an overcooked book It has too many rules that should have been cut out Uh, it is certainly not unbeatable, but I think it will be powerful Uh, that's my summary Martin what are your thoughts? Yeah. Yeah, so I just have a quite um for anyone who's going to get this far I still don't understand the the bin versus sin argument because that tells me you have either two options A trash bin or two sin and I don't understand how one is better than the other Rob found a rhyming scheme he liked and I I did discuss it at all I completely disagree with Rob's entire framing device He was talking about some good ideas But he used a terrible framing device for it because it came up in one of his shows and he really liked the Rhyme of it. It's a bad framing device Rob And if you want it, I'll come on the show and I'll give you and like it just should be talked about differently. Anyways, go ahead Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, um, I I um, I said this online earlier this morning, um, how it's like we we The play style did not change. It is still relatively defensive reactive. You have ways to Change that a little bit, but it's mostly going to be playing around your opponent not really um, taking proactive action Plunt like aggressively with units that do lots of damage upfront um And in some ways I appreciate that. Um, there's just so many options Not only with how to build your army now, but with how to play every turn out All these different levers you can pull all these knobs you can turn Um, some of that is good. Some of that is way too much Yes, it is it is gloriously burnt uh If that could if that's put it just say lumineff gloriously burnt I'll put that on a t-shirt that to replace my mountain stand shirt. Uh, Yeah, yeah, it's uh, I I look forward to a time in the relatively near future When there are events again, um on in mass So we can really see how long people stick with the army Uh continue to either like see maybe do well or not do well I'm look I'm looking forward to to that. Yep Yeah Tom Yeah, I'm gonna reiterate what everyone else has said here. Um The only other things that I would add is that I think that this is going to be a notoriously difficult army to balance moving forward Sure because It is going to like it is a low body army High Like technical side Where a lot of things are resting on the abilities themselves of the book and of the war scrolls not on points And so what's gonna happen is is you're gonna get into a situation where all the mpe that this army generates can't be adjusted for by points, right? Um and and said what you're going to have is you're going to have a lot of Like people are going to want to adjust it with points and if you do that it'll become unplayable And so just because like it can't like there's some things that you just can't adjust for and you're just you'll get to a tipping point of having Not enough bodies to even be able to play the game and so I I am concerned about the long-term health of this army Either as a meta crushing monstrosity if if the points shift positively in its direction Or an unplayable mess if it shifts the other way and so In true blue fashion, it's really hard to balance Yeah, control has always been the hardest thing for magic to work out, right? Right Because it too is way too good. It's the best spell in the entire game Counter spell of four is trash that nobody uses in a deck, right? Like Yeah, right. And so where is that middle ground and three isn't actually the right answer It's like 2.5. Well, we can't get to 2.5. So then what do we have to do in order to make it like Too good not not too good but good enough um and so I I think that in the long run I have serious concerns about just the Literally the army of abilities that are sitting in the in the battle tome and on the wash rolls And I just don't know that there's an easy fix there um I'll say this. I love the army Um, I love the way that it plays Um, I love all the tools that it brings Like I said, I can file off numbers and do head swaps and stuff like that. That's fine Um, it actually now has it now feels like a whole army If you go and watch our other review one of my critiques and the reason why I didn't take the army was because I said it didn't feel done It felt incomplete. Um, and this is why it's because it was and now we have the whole book um at least this version of the whole book and I'm Uh, I'm overwhelmed by the options Sure I look forward to you getting your thousand points ready so we can take it to to holy havoc at the end of the year It's gonna be a great tournament and make everyone just hate us Well, last time I had slanesh so everybody hated me while you were playing fun night haunt this time I'll be playing a fun army. So there we go. It's true. All right. Well, thank you so much everybody for watching This was a long one. I hope this was helpful. I hope we got into it I hope we gave some insights and more than just, you know, reading the scrolls off the page or something We we try to really make sure we're breaking things down and give any insights We are going to have to see what happens how the faqs come out lots of undercover there martin Thank you, sir. So much for being here. You're welcome. So late on a week night all of you out there for sticking with us You're all the champions the true heroes Don't forget to hit that like button on your way out. It does make it Easier for other people to find the channel the show if you haven't subscribed already. Hey, please do We'd love to see you back next week. We'll be back Covering the rest of the stuff in broken realms that isn't luminous As well as some of the narrative So that's gonna be a lot of fun. Don't worry. We will make the narrative part a its own little spoilery part But it's gonna be fun to discuss So we hope to see you then but as always, thank you so much for watching. We'll see you next wednesday