 So today we're going to talk about how to let go move on and heal after a toxic relationship And I'm really excited to have a guest here Dear friend of mine dr. Roberta who's got a breath of knowledge dealing with people who are in Toxic relationships how to let go and move on and heal from toxic relationships. So I'm really excited to have you dr Roberta, thank you so much now. I'm excited to be here Jonathan. Yeah So really quickly for our audience, can you give like the cliff note version of your expertise? Sure, I'm a relationship crisis consultant And I had to shift from my wonderful world of Psychologists because I have clients all over the world. So I help people Recognize and recover from toxic relationships and emotional abuse Hmm. Well, we're happy you do that for the world because I do recognize that I oftentimes say Dr. Roberta the number one emotional health issue we're faced with is I'm not good enough I'm not lovable and I'm not likable And dating triggers that like nobody's business And certainly relationship So I want to start with my first question because I want to just get a clear understanding of what is a toxic relationship It's a great question because there's so many variations on it So I wrote my own and I will read it to you so that I say precisely what I want to say A toxic relationship is any adult relationship where interactions are intentionally abusive damaging Controlling or otherwise lacking in equality reciprocity and mutuality Now Okay, I really have I want to say I got triggered with something. I don't know if that's the right word, but I I I heard intentional Can people be toxic and unintentional? Well, that's another big question that gets asked so frequently. Are they ask me are these people Aware are they conscious of what they're doing? And yes, they are But not in the way that you might think always They can be very manipulative and the manipulation is always to meet their own needs So they're conscious of what they're doing But they're not maybe consciously underlying motive because it is pushed by their feelings by their needs You know, you brought up the idea of people not feeling good enough Well, when I did a survey of all of my podcast episodes and we do it like every every month We look at the top 10. There's always one in there that includes the title includes not good enough So you're spot on there So, you know coming back to intentionality because I know prior To doing a lot of therapy doing personal development work self-help and spiritual work. I certainly operated from a very Self-centric myopic point of view and and sometimes, you know, I I certainly recognize Now looking back. I was selfish. I don't know if I thought of myself As being selfish at that time. It's easier to look backward But coming back to one more time on intentionality um Is this because they're so Wounded that that causes them to be self-centric I mean, is it really a core wound that caused that or what causes people to be You know narcissistic self-centric myopic that sort of thing Well, there's a few things for a very small percentage of the population It's in their genetic makeup their DNA A very small percentage, but okay very much environmental You're going to model a hijackle parent hijackle is my trademark word for these people So we don't go down diagnostic trails Okay But you know when hijackles model In order to get the approval of a parent Or the way the parent insists on parenting and the loyalty You know There will be modeling that comes in as the brain is developing One of the things that's important for us all to recognize is we came into this world with perfectly functioning nerves But an underdeveloped brain So we take in so much in the very early years through our senses You know like something as simple jonathan is Did you feel like you could go to sleep when a parent held you? Did you feel safe? Could you just let go? Well, if you couldn't that will change your feeling of safety in the world You know, it's not quite as direct as that but you know really to understand that there are so many environmental issues How do I get my needs met? How do I get the giants who brought me home from the hospital to approve of me so I can survive? You know, it can be that basic It can be that modeling. It can be that the family system You know great-grandmother grandmother Mother all have hijackle tendencies and really important to say there are equal numbers of men and women hijackles Yes Okay, so okay, so coming back to hijackles because if I understand correctly, this is your terminology Um, can you give for our audience a little better understanding of hijackles and what that means? And because you did say a moment ago, I think it's dangerous for people to diagnose others Which the term narcissists gets thrown about quite a bit. So your term is hijackles right to share that with us Sure The reason I developed that and what I mean by day dangerous to diagnose others If you are not a professional in the field, please don't do it Because you don't understand what the terms mean and the depth of them And you have a lot of information and we can have an idea, but don't do it So I created the term hijackles so we could just talk about kind of a pattern traits Cycles of people and say, yeah, I'm with somebody who does that They do that they're hijackles and the definition of hijackles is a person who hijacks a relationship for their own needs and purposes And then relentlessly scavenges that relationship for power status and control Interesting so I have a lot of thoughts roaming in my head right now, but so I'm curious What is so attractive about those who fall into a toxic relationship? Why why do people fall into a toxic relationship with a hijackle? If you will Well, most of them don't see it coming Many of them fall into two categories Hijackles See very successful people as a challenge. Can I bring them down? Can I cut them down? Can I wear them down tear them down? That's one thing, but the other thing is hijackles are generally emotionally lazy and in my estimation So if you have As showing up in life as a people pleaser As somebody who is saying, you know, I really want you to like me and you're overly empathetic and you give people So many opportunities are the benefit of the doubt or second chances or you're always going the extra mile A hijackle says, hi live one here I can get them to do what I want them to do all I have to throw in is a few moments of love bombing every now And again and they will go. Oh Oh, they do like me and this is good. What can I do for you? Then we get into that whole dynamic again Where you're endeavoring to please the hijackle and the hijackle sitting back and saying I think I'll be she who will not be pleased Right. I will withhold giving you approval. And that's a hijackle game So now okay. Well, this begs the question. What if the person is an overgiver? How much of that is on them? Oh a lot, but you see the thing is hijackles are low on empathy and sometimes well in particularly Lethal cases and I use that term advisedly. They're empathy deficient You know, they don't really care how things affect you and if it affects you, you know, I'm sorry you feel that way You know, I take no responsibility for my part And of course nobody can make you feel anything without your permission But if I say, you know, I feel really hurt when that happens They say well, that's a choice you can make you could look at it differently And so that's what a hijackle will do instead of saying. Oh, that's not my intention Tell me more about what you're feeling. Let's see if we can talk more Got it. Okay. So now do hijackles gaslight? Oh, sure Okay. Okay. And what other terms that they're used for narcissists do hijackles do? Oh, all of them because basically underlying Anything that that looks or seems to be a personality disorder is narcissism. There is going to be I have the right To have power over you So hijackles will have all of those things and more You know, because narcissism is basic to this Narcissism and passive aggression Are sort of baked into it So you're going to have that Wait, say that one more time narcissism and passive aggressive are banked or they're linked to each other They're baked into a hijack Because they're they're Manipulative, right? Um, so, you know, what's the worst gaslighting line in the world Somebody says I know you better than you know yourself Oh Really? Well, sure. Now, I would have thought okay, you know, it's what came to my mind is Gaslighting is convincing them what their reality was different Than the other person's interpretation of reality. I thought that was kind of the Well, that's the basic classic gaslighting But I tell you That I've got you so convinced that I'm right and you're wrong And then I do the coup de gras and say I know you better than you know yourself. Give me power over you Oh, I see. Okay. That that seems to make sense. Yes so Okay, since my audience is predominantly women and we did say really quickly You know hijackles are equal to the number of men as there are women But since my audience is women and they're mostly in the dating realm How can they spot a toxic person before they give their heart away before they get in too deep? Is it even possible to catch these people ahead of time? It is It is let me give you a few of these Okay, red flags red flags You know when you date somebody and they say something like and early on they say something like You know, I've had five Serious relationships and all of those people were crazy Just absolutely crazy Wow big red flag because who was the constant in those five relationships? Right. So if somebody says that everybody they dated was crazy or in some other negative fashion Then Per cup and see that. Oh, can I before you go to the next one? Could I share with you something? Sure. Okay. I am guilty of not listening to that red flag I dated a woman and I asked her, you know, what happened in their marriage and she said well, I married a narcissist And I said, well, what happened in your last relationship? Oh, he was a narcissist and I what happened in the previous relationship He was a narcissist. So and she basically outlined like four or five narcissist and I'm thinking to myself Well, I'm not a narcissist. I'll be her white knight shining armor kind of guy Sure enough, we dated for six week and actually it was just a miserable relationship. She wasn't very expressive She wasn't very communicative Miserebles were probably too strong of a word. So I ended the relationship and guess what happened on facebook the next day You were a narcissist. I ended a relationship with another narcissist and I'm like You idiot and you do this for a living You heard the clues and you didn't even listen. So That one I'm in full agreement when someone doesn't take ownership in their part of any ending relationship That oftentimes is a is a sign or a red flag for sure Sure. It's always someone else's fault with the hijackle Everything is is someone else's fault and if you're in a primary relationship with them Everything will be your fault. One thing I want to say while we're on this topic Okay, everybody needs to recognize this in my opinion Which is hijackles paint a public picture of perfection While at home they provide a private place of paint So you see them behaving like on a stage or in a meeting Or at work or at church is not who you're going to get at home Okay, okay, so it's very important to see that so these red flags then Someone is in a big hurry to be in a relationship. I know we've only talked for three days But I love you. I think that we're really going to be something don't you Like oh Back off slow down. You know Well Okay, I've I've got to jump in here because I know when I've been enthusiastic I've been in a state of limerence I could do those same things, you know, I could get I I think men sometimes or men I'm saying this from the male perspective. We sometimes might Over exaggerate something. So where's the line between just over enthusiasm versus, you know, a red flag that there are a hijackle Action and demand, you know, we let's move in together Uh, oh, I think it would be really great to have a baby with you Um, why don't you move with to me, you know to timbuk to with me? I think it'll be great and they paint a big romantic picture All that is is an effort to isolate you so When somebody comes on too strongly about We're perfect. Let's let's move on Let's do this and you get in the whirlwind, you know Someone takes you to paris for the weekend and and they buy you beautiful gifts and they do all that And then finally you say, yes, I'll move in with you or yes, I'll marry you And as soon as the pursuit is seen as ended by the hijackle and the the prizes won They don't have any of that anymore Because that's the love bombing phase and you can tell that it is jonathan Because it is too good to be true and you know what people say if it's good to too too good to be true It probably is So by the way, and i'm guilt i'm gonna be i'm gonna share something personal this happened in 2007 I met a woman and on our third date. She said i loved you Now at the time in my life, I was incredibly insecure and she was a woman of status I mean she was the person on stage that sort of thing and I I'm be candid with you. I got sucked in and what I didn't realize she was a hijackle Um, I did use the n word before but now i'm going to say she was a hijackle and in five months My self-esteem was crushed in this relationship And it took me another three years just to rebuild my self-esteem from this relationship I'm sure that's possible and i've seen it happen because you compress compress compress The idea is if you think of a circle And you divide it in half Yeah, that would be ideal But when you're with a hijackle They get the big part and you get squished against the wall. Yes Exactly exactly. That's how it felt. So, okay, so how does okay? I know in my particular case I actually ended that relationship by the way. It took me a lot I recognized enough within myself that this wasn't healthy for me How does but and I think I just I just Said I have to get out How does someone let go move on and heal from a toxic relationship if they're in one? Well, first of all, you have to be real with yourself You have to step back and observe the whole picture Not just how you're feeling not just that you want to be loved that you don't want to second guess the other You don't want to think poorly of them. It's not nice all of that you step back and you say This doesn't work for me This is not demonstrating the three things that I say are the must-haves of a healthy adult relationship There must be equality reciprocity and mutuality And when you're with a hijack, you will never ever ever have number one. It will never be equality Right and when you begin to feel that, you know, I'm always Being knocked down a little bit degraded discounted dismissed Feeling discarded all of those things and you think oh, I should try harder Maybe it's me and then they tell you it is you Because that's what hijackles do. They'll say well, you're the narcissist here Or you're emotionally abusive and when someone starts to do that Step back look at the big picture get help if you need to to appraise that situation Let me ask you a question and let me see if how you how you react to a philosophy I have in dating I don't like The idea that men are the leaders of the relationship with a lot where a lot of Coaches a lot of people on youtube try to overemphasize that i'm a i'm a believer of Co-creating a relationship together. So when you talk about equality even in the dating process It's two people equally investing would is that resonate with you? Equally investing having equal airtime having equal respect having equal honesty Feeling safe having equal trustworthiness. Yes, all of those things Now you said reciprocity and mutuality. I want to ask you about mutuality. What is that? Because that one actually escapes me. I've not heard that before Yeah, and so I write about it in in my book kaizen for couples Smart steps to save sustain and strengthen your relationship And the reason I wrote that book jonathan is I've been talking about toxic relationships so long and someone said You know, did you write a book about how to have a healthy relationship? So I wrote that book So what's the title again for everybody is called kaizen for couples Smart steps to save sustain and strengthen your relationship Kaizen is a japanese word from industry meaning small positive steps to improvement Okay so Mutuality mutuality Okay, all right, and then oh go ahead and complete Well, I think you asked what it is. Yeah mutuality is when you get to know each other And you go through some of the layers and you feel safe And you start to know what the other person really wants what the other person really values What the other person dreams about what the other person fears and you honor these things And you're supportive of them and and you're in tune with them and you talk with them enough So we never get into the situation of well, I know you you know, you're this And then they don't let us evolve. They don't let us grow They don't let us change our mind because they know us from the minute they met us and they put us in a box Okay So mutuality is that real depth of I want to be your person I want to be the one who's fully engaged. I am here for you. I will walk beside you I will walk ahead of you when you're afraid. I will walk behind you when you lead I'm here for you So when I'm hearing this it reminds me of something I share in my videos about trust and I oftentimes say Trust isn't just about fidelity in relationship. Trust is actually Having the other person's best interest at heart Like that's that's and and to me trust and mutuality trust reciprocity equality All of those things is about saying This person, you know matters to me their feelings matter to me And I I put their feelings at equal par with my own feelings Exactly like to me. That's the the the pathway to a healthy happy relationship. So Um, oh by the way really quickly I want to just let our audience know if you have a question for dr. Roberta Please do me a favor and write the word question and then post the question thereafter We're going to be taking questions in just a moment. So if you have a question write the word question to post the question thereafter So We talked about red flags. We talked about healing And then now finding a loving relationship. Is it possible for someone who's experienced? One two or three hijackles in their life to To be in a position where they can actually find a loving relationship There is but they have work to do Okay Because they need to be able to trust themselves To find that person to calibrate that relationship and to know it's real And if you've had several hijackles in your life, you're questioning whether your picker is off, right? I I seem to be attracted to the same kind of person I That same kind of person finds me attractive How do I break the cycle and you need a lot of information? You need some deep thought Some willingness to be truly honest with yourself And probably some outside help to make it so that you can do that and people always say When I get out of the relationship, you know, and I have clients all over the world You say when I get out how long till I can date Oh I tell them at least one trip around the sun. Oh really? Yes Yes, first of all, you haven't taken a breath during the whole relationship with the hijackle You have to come back to you first. So you know who you're taking on the date Yeah, you know, can I share with you? It's not in relationship to hijackles But this was shortly after my divorce and I was on a dating site and I think it was five months in I'm in the midst of going through a divorce and I wrote this one woman And she asked me how long you've been divorced and I said, well, we separated five months ago and she says Reach out to me in 18 to 24 months after your divorce And you've had one or two transition girlfriends and I wrote it back. I'm like no. No, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready Well, then sure enough I entered into a relationship with a woman fantastic woman We had a great three months relationship and it ended very amicably But I realized that other woman was right, you know And then ironically three years later I saw that same person online and I wrote her a message and I shared with her what she told me and we Have a nice little chuckle with one another um I feel like there's an unraveling of the tapestry of Of a life that you had maybe with someone else or An experience with someone else or maybe an attachment to someone else and to unravel and come back to your sovereignty Like you said one trip around the sun is certainly a good benchmark Before someone puts themselves back out there and ideally doing healing at the same time Absolutely. It's not just letting the calendar go by it's actually self reflection learning I have changing of the paradigm reacquainting yourself knowing what You really believe what your values are what your vision for your life is catching up with yourself at a deep level and if you have some things in your past that have Really impacted you negatively take the time to figure those out. Yeah I know for we're going to take questions in a second But I'll share with you after my significant relationship and it wasn't toxic in any sense I needed time to heal and then as you know, I lost my son And because you interviewed me, you know, we talked about this there was even additional time I need to heal and that time really helped me Learn to enjoy my own company When I actually got to a place of enjoying my own company. That's when there's a picture of my sweetheart right there That's when she entered my life So uh, I just want to share dr. Roberta leaf says thanks for happening dr. Shaler on jonathan This could have saved lives valuable resources people never get back time Money and their heart the faster people identified the faster they address or run if required. Thank you leaf for that share Now we did have a question from lana It says what is triangulation and how often they use it and why What is triangulation is when a hijackle loves triangulation? So They will go to another person your best friend your parent your boss And say you want the inside scoop on who they really are You know, well, I have to tell you it's not what it looks like And they so they they start going through a third person and then then sending that little Seed message out into the world there or going to another person and doing the same But always somebody or usually someone that you have in common So the message will get back to you. That's where the completion of the triangle is Oh, I see okay Um, well, thank you for that. I hope lana got value from hearing your share. So thanks so much And how often they how often they use it jonathan whenever they feel it's to their advantage Well, you know, it's interesting because I know there was a moment in my life where I think I did something similar but that was because I was in such a weak place that I was trying to use people to help me Get the relationship back but not and and I did criticize But I don't think I did it in the kind of fashion that you just shared So thanks so much. We have another question here from lana Why is it harmful if you do not involve emotions and move on and keep friendships with manipulators or narcissistic persons? Well, that's a big loaded question Okay Because it involves two things Sometimes, you know with that old axon, you know, keep your friends close and keep your enemies closer There's a little piece of that You know, I often tell my clients who have really bad acting hijackers spouses that they're They're extricating themselves from and I have a whole course on how to do that called executing my exit and so They they will be working very hard to extricate themselves and I tell them Don't block them on everything And they say but I want to you know, I have no contact No, actually we often need to have those things. You don't need to read them You just need to have them in case you have difficulties in court So that relates to this and also um It is not wise to keep these relationships if you can possibly not because what the phenomenon of supply is Is that as I said hijackers are somewhat emotionally lazy So what they do is they belong to the axon the business axiom Which is it's easier to get a previous customer to buy again than to acquire a new customer So when they are feeling like they don't have anyone to validate them or prove of them or whatever They'll call you up and and they'll love bomb you and they'll go around and come back for more supply So if they don't have access to you That's a much better thing and if you see their name on the caller id You don't answer And so it don't involve and keep these you these are not friendships They really aren't hijackers cannot be your friend. They can be an associate. They can be a colleague They can be a co-conspirator But they're not going to be your friend because they don't have your back Hmm You know it occurs to me You know, you've healed When you can see that caller id and you're not triggered or you could even read that message and not be triggered At the same time, you know, sometimes you just have to block people or delete messages because you know what healing takes a lifetime You know, and maybe we never really get there at the same time We don't have to accept abuse if we have the capacity to shut it off. Does that Right, and if you're not in a contentious High-conflict divorce, you don't need to know you can totally get rid of them That's truly important to do because you don't want these people coming back into your life Yeah, you just don't because they they don't change We've got another question that came in from nana Or nanny nanny Question divorced first husband of 14 years when he developed mental illness and said he was fine Second husband was porn addict and this and he divorced me third was unfaithful fourth died Of cancer. Oh, I'm sorry 12 years So is there any hope? Well, how much work have you done, nanny? You know, have you looked at these things? Have you changed your view of yourself? Have you changed how you present yourself to the world emotionally? You know, what that's where the real work is Is the inner work that you have done to say who am I? How do I present myself in a in a way to the world that is in integrity and Then I I will allow myself to say no to things that don't fit my value system And then that will change Your view of dating We know it's interesting Dr. Roberta, you know her first husband of 14 years sadly had a mental illness Okay, and that's something out of his control. Okay And I think the point there Jonathan is he was in denial Yeah, but what I was about to say is second porn addiction third divorce or third unfaithful But her last person she said she was happy with so you know what it's not like Yes, she has two out of the you're two out of the four were really bad One was in denial and the other person sadly died of cancer. So it's not like she has a 90 You know a 10 success rate. She has a 50 success rate. I just want to say there is hope. Okay Yeah, there there is hope Absolutely But you know on that topic I really feel it's important for me to say that if you are getting yourself Into repeated relationships with hijackers One of the hallmarks is that you will get hooked on hope that there's something you can do to change them Yes, that you can make them feel secure. You can make them feel stable You will be the person who they turn to because uh, they're finally safe And that's not the dynamic of the hijackal relationship. So don't be hooked on hope Yes, okay our next question by the way kind of piggyback something I talk about in my coaching. So Rascal rabbit says do you think practicing radical truth helps to detect evil doers? And let me just preface something to Dr. Roberta One of the things I teach in my coaching is what I call radical honesty pre qualifying your prospect In other words ask deeper questions in the early stages And you have to almost be your own detective if you will to determine, you know Do their answers fit a narrative or does it seem like there's something misguided? So what are your thoughts about practicing radical truth? To detect evil doers Well, if you're telling the radical truth to yourself, I'm all for it If you're telling the radical truth to somebody else You're wasting your breath and you're looking for a fight in this situation Because you know move away from them, you know, I do a lot of graphics jonathan And they're at facebook.com slash hijackles with an ass and one of the more popular ones is this And it really is directionality and I hope everyone takes it to heart the quote that I I offered was You don't have to make someone wrong To know they're not right for you So if you're spending all your time saying oh this person does this and they do this and it's awful and you know, they're you're all You're giving them power. They're taking over your your life because you're focused on all the wrongs that they did You know look in the mirror and say They're just wrong for me. My needs have changed. I need to go in a different direction I'm not going to spend any more time making them wrong I've learned what narcissism is or hijackleness is or anti-social is or whatever I see it it ring resonates with me But now that I see it, I don't want anything cute. So I'm going on my own You don't have to give all that power and energy to that person over and over and over Amen at that when when I wrote my book what the heck is self-love anyway? It's intended to encourage everyone to be in their sovereignty their self-worth their self-esteem their self-power and sadly again, I dating I believe Can trigger a lot of people to give their power away. So I'm really glad you shared that We have another question from jojica that says How can we begin a new trust in other? How can we begin a new trust in other people when we've been failed many times? Well, the first thing I would say is go slowly Calibrate watch What they say don't gloss over don't say oh, this is great. I hope there's a future, you know that kind of thing is I think of it this way jonathan and for you too, jojica is When you date You are auditioning for us someone for a starring role in your life And they better live up to that and if they don't You know that when you're dating them you are dating their press agent not the real person for the first few months You're dating the person who's saying oh, I'm wonderful and I do this and I want to do that And I love you and all the good stuff. So you're dating their agent But when you really get down to see who is the actual person being sold here It takes time So give yourself all the time in the world because the time afterwards can get awfully long Yeah, so I want to share something with you before I take our next question. It's um It's a show on I think it was on any any it's now on I think discovery plus or hulu or one of those called love prison and uh love prison, okay And it's a show about people who have been communicating For six months to two months online. They've developed a relationship with one another There's a lot of love bombing between the two people. I mean a lot of flirting and a lot of text communicating for this six months to two year period of time and they're basically Given an opportunity to meet however they meet in an environment where they're basically stuck in a house on an island With very minimal, you know, it's not like being in a paradise type of thing It's kind of minimalist and they have to spend 23 hours Inside the home and then one hour outside and it's a tiny little area and it's all got these cameras Why i'm sharing this with you is while i'm sure you don't agree that people should just move in together You really don't know a person until you've spent a lot of time with them face to face To see who they really are and in the four episodes I watched three of these couples who declared their love for each other prior to ever meeting hated each other When they actually got to experience this person and why i'm bringing this up is because our next Question has to do with long distance dating, you know, a lot of people create fantasy relationships Based on text communication and telephone calls. I say fantasy relationships From my observation now that i'm in a significant relationship where i live with someone You really don't know someone until you spend a lot of face to face time with someone in a variety of different environments Right to see how they react. So our next question has to do with long distance Dating long distance. He is friends with his former girlfriend. I know he sees her but he isn't telling me I feel triggered. Sadly. I have had three failed relationships any tips Well, I think you know because you wrote that sentence I know he sees her but he isn't telling me. You don't trust this person. Yeah So if you don't trust him You don't have to make someone wrong to know they're not right for you I don't trust you I have asked every way to sunday and all my spidey senses. Tell me that You're not trustworthy. Bye. Bye See you just said the key word I think what a lot of people do is they're afraid to say N e x t Next, you know, I I've noticed a lot of people hang on to an unhealthy relationship that Whether this is toxic or not, you know, I mean, I don't want to necessarily speculate But they hold on to relationships hoping something will change when they've done nothing to try to instigate the change Right, you know, they think if I just give this person more love they will change instead of being direct Unassertive, you know, I think people get very confused. They don't want to come across as aggressive So they fail to be assertive you know, I teach a Technique a strategy that I created about 25 years ago and It came in reaction to I was doing a lot of training companies and conflict management and team building and it was very hot to do the eye message And I thought I can't teach that, you know When you do this, I feel this way. It's just failed blame and you know Not it's a better than nothing strategy, but it wasn't as Um, I wanted it to be so I created a strategy called the personal weather report And you can go to personal weather report dot com and learn all about it Personal weather report. Okay. Yeah. Um, but here's what it basically is Is coming to a place where you know that you Deserve to take up space on this earth. You deserve to draw breath and therefore You deserve to say what you think feel need want prefer remember like As long and here's the big thing as long as you do not mention another human by name or pronoun So you're only speaking about yourself. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, right? And when we get into that situation Then we are safe You know, I am I'm just saying I you know, I I don't find um That to be a comfortable situation Right. Yeah, I can say that I'm not saying you shouldn't I am saying I don't And when we get into emotionally mature relationships and we're looking for equality mutuality and reciprocity We want to be able to say Oh We think differently about that lean in and say tell me more about that. Let me learn about you So one of the things I share I wrote in my book I I call it speak your truth doing it with kindness and what I mean to say is your truth Is how you might feel about something it doesn't mean it's that truth It's just how it comes from your perspective and I went on to say When you're with the right person, you really can't say the wrong thing, you know When you're in the in a good relationship, you really if it's well actually, let me reframe that the chapter is called If it's sincere and from the heart You can't say the wrong thing to the right person and what I mean to say is if you're speaking from your heart And this person rejects you they gaslight you they do manipulate they say you're wrong Then this isn't the right person for you But if you speak from your heart that you're hurting The right person will say tell me more. How can I how can we get through this together? How can we hold hands together and get through this? So Um, and by the way, I want to piggyback on assertiveness This is a critically important aspect of any healthy relationship Is to not be assertive in a dominant way not be assertive in a smothering way not to be assertive in a conflicting way It's just stepping into your power and being expressive. It's it's asserting your power In a healthy way That's what I'm hearing from you. Is that right? Absolutely In the personal weather report I have the absolute right to say what I think or what I feel or need or want as long as I don't mention anybody else You know inside me the report is I feel extremely boxed in and uncomfortable right now Yeah Right, that's my weather report. I'm not saying you're boxing me in or feeling uncomfortable, but if The other person says well, that's stupid. What do you feel like that for what's wrong with you? Wrong relationship. Yeah, if that's the frequently engaging message your potential partner is giving you they are dismissing you They don't care and no hijack Cares how you feel And when they do care how you feel or they pretend to we call it love bombing and what they're doing is They're afraid you're leaving them or you're afraid that that And they want something and they're not going to get it So they kind of lean in and they do what they did at the beginning And then what they're doing at that time is making you feel Oh, I am loved and then you spill the beans You spill the tea about yourself and there's their ears are up going. Ah Those are your vulnerabilities. I'll weaponize those and hit you with them later Hmm Oh my gosh It's too much in some cases to take all this in. Hey, we're uh, dr. Roberta We're going to take maybe one or two more questions before we wrap up. Uh, this was an interesting one from lana that says How often is the narcissist person addicted to sex or porn besides drinking and alcohol or drug addicts? Disportionately common Is it? Yeah Yeah, particularly in narcissistic males Yeah, because it's a power over situation They're constantly watching a power over situation They want the power over situation. They prefer things that have some elements of dominance in them interesting Yeah, well now with the advent of easy access to porn. I mean when I was growing up I like it took I like before I was 21 I had to like steal playboy magazine But Yeah, exactly But today there's just so much of it I I did a I did a interview last week with an addiction specialist and we talked about that sex You know all of these alcohol sex drugs You know addictions, uh, you know even online dating now is an addiction Of some sort, you know being that dopamine head of that next person might be interested in you. So Also, Jonathan, I kind of put in here if there's a hijackle and they're lazy remember So online dating is whoo-hoo for them because they can say anything They can listen. Yes. What do you want feed it to you and you go? Ah, I found my soulmate and then they're just stringing you in You know pulling you in it's so common So you must be really really careful with online dating because they're lazy and they're there I find that especially after covet we had a significant percentage of the population that you know had Felt a sense of loneliness a felt a sense of disconnection and certainly online connections exploded even more so During that period of time that feeling of connected to another human being I'm a big as a dating and relationship coach. I'm a big proponent of two people if they connect that one they they do Uh a FaceTime, especially if it's long distance to make sure that this person is legitimately who they are I'm a big proponent of that. I'm also being yeah. What's that repeatedly? See them on FaceTime or sky? Yeah is something where you're connecting Yeah, repeatedly if it's long distance But if it's local or something like that you connect and try to meet within a short period of time Don't let this drag out. You know when things drag out For months and months and months and by the way even that show love prison There were two people lived in the same city and it took two years before they physically met I like that was insanity in my book but um Don't get so because you're getting attached to the idea of someone or the fantasy or the delusion We're coming back to what I said before You know the only way they really get to know someone is through breaking bread on a repeated basis in a variety of Different situations to see who they really are and people that get connected online Oftentimes just get attached To an idea and not the real person at least from my perspective. Well, they do they fantasize about it They make it into all the good parts and the other parts were bad days They they excuse poor behavior and You have to be super conscious when you're dating Super conscious of the whole interaction not just Your delight and having someone who wants to talk with you This piggybacks what I talk about frequently is about being intentional in the dating process and that means being You know, it's it's okay to have your heart in it But the same time you have to be pragmatic about this, you know, especially when you're meeting strangers And you know, and I'm a big proponent of finding out as much about a person Again through repeated interactions so you can get to see them in a variety of different ways Dr. Roberta, I Can't begin to tell you we have had so many comments zen gal says Lovely interview. Thank you Dr. Schaler and Jonathan. We've had a number of comments praising how much they appreciated having you on I can't begin to tell you how much I how grateful I am to being able to have this conversation with you I'm really prefer the term hijackle than the n-word that oftentimes get used and again that being a diagnosis Without professional expertise. So Anything you'd like to share before we wrap up. Oh before I forget. I'm going to share folks I'm going to share Dr. Schaler's Schaler's contact information in the link below. I invite you to follow her podcast her podcast is really amazing What's the name of your podcast? Wait say it one more time Save your sanity help for toxic relationships Help for toxic relationships everyone. I want you to start following her podcast Certainly her youtube channel as well as i'll tag you and then go to our website. It's uh, is it emerging empowering dot com Emerging empowered dot com because that's how we want to be all the time a little bit more emerging empowered Even while we're in the difficult relationship We want to be learning things about ourselves and strategies and have insights that allow us to emerge With our authentic self empowered Thank you so much last but not leaf leaf says thank you very much for your time. Dr. Roberta Thanks again for hosting this topic jonathan and thank you so much dr. Schaler. Thanks so much We're going to wrap up today and come back next week to see who we have All right. Thanks everyone. Bye now Bye. Bye