 Thanks for staying with us now. Diversity, equity and inclusion in governance is the practice of ensuring that all members of society have an equal opportunity to participate in decision-making and to benefit from the fruits of government. It is about creating a government that is reflective of the diversity of its population that is responsive to the needs of all its citizens. Now in a statement by Pekan, Executive Director Alhaji Abdul Karim, you bade the Secretary and the Secretary Muhammad Rabi'u Awal. Some APC members under the banner of the Progressive Change Ambassadors of Nigeria, as the Pekan, have said that the President's appointments are lopsided and do not reflect the diversity of the country. Today we're asking, what influence does diversity have on governance and nation-building? Now please let's hear what you have to say. Remember you can join the conversation. Send us an SMS over at episode 183-4663. So I'm going to bring in Bola-ho in a minute. I just want to hear your thoughts quickly. What do you think? It really does. It's not a moral imperative. It is a strategic approach to ensuring that we have a more resilient nation-building process. You cannot have a country as diverse as Nigeria. We all come from different places, different languages and all that. We must have some set of people who are not adequately represented to feel like they are part of that system. So for us to rise above all the cultural challenges, ethnic biases and even gender biases, we must look to ensure that we promote the strength in diversity, equity and really ensure that we include everybody in governance. You know what Iqo is always talking about? Especially the presidency and vice president. Iqo is always talking about Ibu, Yoruba and Housa. Also, you called for me to stay at home. What do you want me to do? Literally, so I mean, ideally. And that was why when President Jonathan was elected, it was like, okay, I can see myself represented. But I'm just trying to tell you people, I want Yoruba people. It's not even Yoruba Housa. There's more tribe in Nigeria than that. But if you truly want to practice diversity, you need, if you ask me and we say okay, all this because there are some laws, there are some quotas, I mean, there are some, what's it called? Parameters that you must meet for you to be elected, let's say maybe that's in your office, you know, president and vice president. If you pick somebody from, where should I say now, maybe Aouchi or maybe Ben Wasted, the person might not be able to wield that much influence. So if you say, okay, you know what, you want to really practice diversity, then you must bring down some of these rules and regulations. And just say, this year, anyhow, in a one-door, three presidents, three presidential candidates must come from Sokoto. We're not saying now, oh, Sokoto, all on this, to Sokoto. I don't know, I'm just saying. I don't want to say it's working, but because it means that they rotate it. Just if we pick from legal states, let's say, we will pick from, you know, we just go around all these 36 plus federal capital. Before, before you guess in your 36. But yes, because they're rich, they say your quota, they're exhaust. No, if you say we should practice diversity, let them move in like that. Because I don't want to say I'm a day man, the president. That's very possible. No, it's not possible the way it is now. I'm telling you. Let me bring it out, guys. The law of our lunch party is a conservative and trans professional who has spent the best part of the last 30 years in corporate Nigeria, his industry exposure cuts across professional services, investment banking and advisory services, corporate banking, print media, education, healthcare, oil and gas and telecoms. He's very passionate about issues around leadership and governance. And that's why we're so excited to have him with us in the studio. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. No, we're laughing. But I'm just telling you people, if you say you want to do diversity, I want to say I'm a day man as a president. I'm sure my village people will be happy with what I've said. But let me hear your thoughts really. It's possible to truly practice diversity, equity and inclusion in Nigeria with the current structure that the nation has. We're going to have to be deliberate about it. It's a fairly complex space. But you know, this DEI is an emerging space. It's not just government. It's also about the corporate environment. Yes, it's applicable to literally every part of our life. But I think corporate are doing well. Some... Some blunts of doing well. I went to a bank branch on our lower road a couple of years ago. And they were speaking a language from a part of the country to me. And I was wondering why? How did you assume that I speak that language? Is that the language you're supposed to communicate with in the bank? That was a bank in a high-brow Lagos. And it's still behaving as if it's in a village where you can narrow down the language that almost 90% of the people speak. And so it's still there, even in corporate Nigeria. That's the reality. It gets more complex when you go to government. So across the river, that's about 60 distinct tribes. Tell me about it. Why do we go around it? A kaduna, about 50. People speak different languages. They are different people in evolution, you know, or they go to that place. How do you get things to go around them? That is where the problem is. So a better way to solve most of that problem is that whoever finds themselves in power, should just be good. Sir, you see, when people get the things they need in life, they don't know that so much, who provides it. That is a way to solve the problem, not the way we're going to solve it. Sorry to come in here. I'll let you come in, because you know what I said? That's what I said in the beginning. It doesn't really matter. Because in the end, if you really want to say diversity, in the true sense of diversity in this country, we will not be able to go around. I don't think even in a thousand centuries... We won't be able to! So if you are done with the hell, you are done with maybe each 36 states. You now say, okay, fill me. Inside that 36 states, you say, okay, this one was from Auchi, me and Benin. Somebody else is from Okwila. So it is really difficult. But you see, when there is good governance, nobody cares. Nobody cares. So even when these people are coming out... I just feel like this is a distraction. When they pick and they are coming out to say that the president is selecting people from a certain... What's it called? As far as I'm concerned, are those people competent to do the job? If they are competent to do the job, please go ahead, do the job. And let me feel your impact that you are doing the job and it is benefiting every single citizen in Nigeria. That's what works for me. Because truly, if we start to play this diversity, equity and inclusion card... Where do you draw the lines? It's going to be very difficult. It is difficult. The real thing is serve. Serve purposely. Deliver to the people. Let them have a feel that there is government. And they won't remember where you came from. That is the reality. But for as long as... What makes people start moving towards that necessity of religion? It's because they don't feel secure. They feel betrayed by other person. I can't trust him. I would rather trust someone. Okay. In the real sense, by the time... Jonathan's administration was over. Okay. The village probably... Was known by you all. Still had no water to drink. So it's not a matter of my person is this. There was literally no road to water farm. By the time Obasanjo was done with his presidency. An open state is still one of the states that has the worst roads ever. One of the most unstable states in Nigeria, within security matter, was Katsina. They have had two presidents come from that place. President Yerega was from Katsina. Then you have President Bawari. And also one of the poorest and one of the most insecure states in Nigeria. So the question is, what is the exact benefit that comes to the table by virtue of the fact that it is my person that is there? So we need to look for people who can get the job done and do it well. And let us receive the dividends. A very good example. For the first 36 years of America's presidency, 32 out of that 36, all the presidents came from one state. Okay. And it wasn't part of the discussion. It wasn't the big deal. They didn't mind that. 32 years out of 36, nine states out of the entire United States. But as long as those people are able to deliver, give them what they want, move the nation forward, it wasn't the big discussion in American politics. Okay. It's a more diverse one. I hear you. I mean, I hear you. But, I mean, honestly for me, I think I am more, I really don't care where anyone comes from, as long as you can do the work, as long as you can deliver. That's where I stand and is reflected in how I work, how I interact with people. However, there is a reality. And it's the, I mean, we saw this on social media. We're young people. Young people who have inherited this ideology of where I come from, this religion and all. So again, I want to ask, how do we bring people together to say, you know what, let's do a way with whatever it is that you think makes you different. Let's look at the common goal, which is, you know what, let's just look at people who can serve. Because, I mean, the last election, I had, in fact, I lost friends because of it. Because my argument was, it really draws in matter. Whoever can move this country forward should just be there. But it became a, I mean, forgive my Yoruba. You know? Oh my God. You understand? That's a very strong one. Yes! I mean, you don't have, you don't have... Sense? No. It was beyond sense. It was beyond sense. You don't have history. More like. Where do you come from? Where do you come from? What's your identity? It's very hidden. Your ancestry. Yes, it's very hidden. And you can't even begin to imagine how this has deeply eroded our thinking. Really. You can't even find that for the very few people who have this ideology of, you know, well, let's just move. Let's focus on progress. There are no who are about, I need to be represented. I need to be. And their voices are louder than people who think like you and I. So how do we... So how do we move forward? Like I started with, we have to be more deliberate about this. See? I don't believe that there is a part of Nigeria that you cannot find competent people. Sure. If you look well enough. So when people are looking for those who can serve, you can... It's not an either or situation. You can also find people who can serve in that tribe that is not yours, in that religion that is not yours. Absolutely. So let that judgment be more towards merit first. And in the course of implementing merit, we are deliberate about inclusion. And if you look well enough, you will find good people in almost all the places. Sure. That is the reality of our situation. Nigeria is so diverse, but the tyranny of the majority, you can see it everywhere, is the reason why we talk about three tribes. Nigeria, I think there are only four. When some states have 60 tribes. It's the reason why we talk about Islam and Christianity, as if that encompasses everybody. So those other people that are not in those two classes, they are not existing. They don't exist. Meanwhile, the reality is that even some of those who say they are in the three primary... They are also in that primary. They are also in that primary. You are very correct. You know what? He's the first time. He's the first time. Honestly. Honestly. So if you look at... There's a book called Fighting Corruption is Difficult or something like that. It's Dangerous by Ngozi Okunjewela. Oh, I've not seen that. Oh, yeah. She wrote a book. And one of the topics she discussed was how during the genital regime, the genital was accused of nepotism. I hope you know. He was told that literally the entire finance suit of Nigeria was in the hand of a particular tribe. From the minister to the central bank of Ngozi Okunjewela, to the head of NCOE, to the budget and economy plan, everything. In the real sense, it looks like that. When you go and check the names, that was all that. When the next person came, was it different? Exactly. It wasn't different. It wasn't. And now, even with a successor to the one after Jonathan, has it changed? No. It has not changed. So largely, that is who we are, naturally. For us to change that, we're going to have to be dead. So I was going to say that, hearing you speak, there is a place of loyalty and trust. Correct. In identifying people. So for instance, now, before, if I wanted to do something, I would just do it blindly, regardless of who is there. But with time, I'm watching and I'm seeing that, there are some things that I do not trust this person to have the capacity to be able to handle it. But this other person, I trust that they were delivered on the job. So based on the fact that I've worked with these people over time. Because there's not enough for you to just have a good CV on paper. Yes. Most of these appointments and all of that are delicate positions. I remember the other lady that was appointed to the head of is it the communications one or something that they rejected her that they don't know her and all of that. But he checked track record. I mean, she's worked on the people that the president has appointed. If you checked, they've worked on that him in some way or the other. So is it possible that he's just putting a structure that he believes has the capacity to be able to make his government look good? Right? Can we put that excuse there or you're still insisting that the third thing to do is go around and see that yes, you can actually because they are actually competent people everywhere like you were saying. So is it should we make that excuse for him that it is okay to be able to put people you trust so that they can deliver on the job? It's a mix of the two and there's a place for both. President George Bush before he became president, he had a committee led by Condoleezza Rice. They were like a think tank group for him. Well, 20 of them are there about. They've been there for like a year before he became president. Everybody in that team became members of his administration because he has learned to work with them to trust them in fact they formulated his policies for him. So by the time he became president when he's looking for this remember this guy, looking for this that guy. In fact the one that was rejected by the congress he forced it on them, he vetoed it they had to appoint that guy because the guy had some funny, funny past but he still ensured that the guy became a member of the cabinet. So there's a place of loyalty. Trump was even worse when he came to that. So he brought all his family members. All his family members were all there. So there's a place for loyalty for this is the person I know this is the person I can trust this wrote. There's a place for that. But as you go into that, because we have been deliberate, in fact the tendency that you carry the way along that line, you won't even remember that there's something called inclusion and equity and this. So if you're deliberate so while you are going in that line for yourself to question you'll be ready to make interviews and just choose one person and say okay, there are three people right? Let me talk to them. And in the course of engaging with people you may find out that there's actually somebody who is better than the person that you knew. And you can see get the job done. People we think even loyalty is a moving space. Someone who was loyal yesterday might not be loyal today but some of the people that who lead us now are some of those they trust. They get there, they have their own agenda and they hijacked the place. When the former wife of the president was saying oh, they hijacked my husband's presidency. They weren't talking about external people. He was the people inside. Absolutely. Alright, thanks for staying with us and if you just tuned in we're having an interesting conversation on DEI in governance and its influence on nation building. That's diversity equity and inclusion. In case you do not know the meaning of DEI. And we have with us our very own Balao Olojade. Now please let's hear what you have to remember. You can join the conversation, send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 0818384663. So Balao Olojade so now there is a conspiracy theory out there. I'm not the one that said it. You know that pattern that the current president has when you've worked for him and of course you've been loyal to him and all of that. He always pays back. Like he always compensates and they feel like some of all of this appointments and all of that are just compensatory. That is not really that these people are actually really you know, they might but it's more compensatory. Do you agree with that theory or have you seen setting appointment that you said? No, no, no. This one is a square peg in a square hole. Of course there are some appointments that are square peg in a square hole. There are also appointments that has nothing to do with you know I'm paying you back because the people involved were not even politicians in the first instance. But then there are those that were compensations and we know that. What I think is important is that when you are talking about compensation there are certain roles that are too critical for compensation. So when you want to fill those roles you're not thinking compensation. You're thinking who is the best person. There are some other ones that you can play around with. Come and take this one you do it for a while, that's fine. After all, in a couple of years I can decide to remove everybody and replace them. And replace them. I mean if you have served for two years you won't say I didn't remember you. So it's a mix of both. Compensation and it's not just about Nigerian politics. Compensation is everywhere. But don't play with the critical roles in the name of compensation. That is what is important. I agree. Okay so I want to ask given your experience in this nation building, are there current DEI initiatives in Nigeria, I mean within the governance space, and then if there are, what are the do we have any way to measure the impact, whether good whether bad, and then is there any way we can benchmark you know against them. Just for future purpose to say oh okay you know what we tried this, we did this, it didn't work let's look towards this and then you know. There are actually some elements of you know attempt to put DEI in, even in the constitution you have a federal character. You have a situation in which each state is meant to donate to the center for ministers. So that's an attempt to include every state which they've been keeping up with. There's also a question whether we need to keep it because the constitution did not actually say it was bring from 36 states. It didn't even say that you must have 36 ministers which means, how about I have 10 ministers, and then after I I turn them from another 10 it's a possibility, but those elements are there but what you still see is that because we're still largely driven by this pre-model sentiment I would like to say it. A lot of time we find ways where there is a lacuna to convince all those ones. So apart from fulfilling those ones that are written in black and white, all the other ones that are within the body of the president to choose whoever he likes, he will choose whoever he likes, and that is where we really need to challenge inclusion. As far as minister is concerned they came from all the 36 states including the Funabuja, so inclusion has been satisfied. So in addition to what you've just said now challenging the work he has direct would I call it prerogative to just choose whoever, there are also the quota for women that they've said that this now is a global call it's not even just restricted to Nigeria that at least there should be some representation of women in leadership, governance and in all those top positions so should we begin to say that because we just want to fulfill a quota we put because so minister they've been talking about it lately I say first because I was challenging you you were so funny because like literally like that one is a joke I never know what to say because because we do we sacrifice competence or because we've said that women have to be part of it literally I've that should also challenge our sense of selection because there are actually enough women to pick from, we're not lacking women women are probably 50% of this entire population so if in our choices we make the wrong ones then it is our fault because there are real people out there with issues around women in politics there are not many of the people that would like to see who are able to make it into politics I remember attending an invitation from a presidential aspirant he wanted to speak with leaders of thought whatever he called us then so we went there he had also invited women but the meeting was overnight the meeting started about in 30 or 9 will you go? you see what I'm saying I remember I mean these are the issues at the end of the day it was a long table of men but at the end of the day we had a meeting so the participation of women is still fringe largely so making a choice within that free if you want to only look at compensation becomes a problem because only those who are participating and the people who are qualified for compensation but if what you are looking for is credible people who can get things done and it's not about compensation they are out there in millions of them so it says based on the current economic situation in the country do you think this administration can offer Nigerians anything positive? it's a big question when a very very challenging season as a country and by the way it is in order to say congratulations that we won a case today the PNID case 11 billion US dollars otherwise by now we will have actually been bankrupt literally we will be insolvent we won't be anything so I heard that I saw that thing because I saw it in passing but because I don't understand it you didn't pay attention to it can you just explain that PNID? PNID is this briefcase company that came to Nigeria over a decade ago and eventually got awarded a contract they would build a gas plant the federal government of Nigeria would supply them freely they would use the free gas to do whatever they are doing and then they would share the profits but you see this company obtained that contract by corrupting everybody that was corruptible along the pathway bribing anybody bribing of course that contract wasn't going to work anyway so at some point they said federal government has frustrated the contract by not providing us with the gas I promised to provide us therefore we are suing them for breach when was the plant used to say you were going to brib but because they could bribe everybody before you knew it they went to arbitration and there was an arbitral award about 6.6 billion dollars with an interest at 7% so before you knew it that 6.6 billion over the years has become 11 billion they want to send Nigerians literally if I like the way the Nigerian one of the Nigerian lawyers described it they said this is avarice or avarice beyond the dreams the quantum of wealth that could plunge a nation plunge a nation into insolvency to think of the fact that Nigerians themselves are involved but in such a grand front against their own nation it's unbelievable it is sad to think of the elites the way we sabotaged this nation do you understand because what you just described is what happens on a daily basis that is why somebody else from outside of this country to come into this country and do these kinds of fraud is this people said it it was as if is it non-Nigeria we can go and clean them out and they came and they came with a fat wallet of dollars and they distributed it around and they were right because somebody gave them the contract absolutely it's just a crazy I mean with them brings us back to the conversation because if we and this is why I love where we're headed with this conversation if we keep the focus on things like diver it's not like they are not important they are the diversity the equity and the inclusion they are very important but what we need now is not about all of those things it is somebody that cares enough for every single Nigerian who has a road contract you will deliver that job like your life depends on it do you understand so if we start to ask for those kinds of leaders because if we keep our focus on things like this we lose track of the real transition in fact considering this case now it's way beyond just the leaders it's the people themselves I mean because this would have gone through normal civil servants normal, not leaders you have civil servants you have said they gave me a contract but it was because I had health challenges and the guy said he was going to help me with my health blesses she has forgotten but she knows who are the major demons that we have in government structure of course it's the civil servants the people last year there were 2 civil servants one of them had about 2 and something houses another about 1 and something houses how much is the salary that one is not in any political party you shut up I'm telling you because they will tell you even with their mouth we are the ones that are the custodian of some of these corruptions that we are talking about I'm going to teach you exactly now they know now that you see the guys who were protesting against Umahi who locked him out of the office that is the nature of the kind of civil servants that we have to say that by 9 o'clock you are not in the office and the minister is saying what kind of thing is this I am already here how do we clean that system because you see this diversion inclusion and whatever I prefer to have a civil servant remove all the civil servants first remove states remove which states they should remove doubt and being honest if we want to practice this diversity and we start it inside if this legal state civil servants now we remove all of them we tell them go bono then bono come cano we just tell me how will that help they will find a way the most important thing is for people to be loyal there is a structure around corruption that's it now when they come here they will settle that I am absolutely agree with you they will it all goes back to leadership people say follow a ship yes follow a ship has a big civil servants don't have any tribe it means that they are the same everywhere it is the same everywhere I heard I won't mention the court before the war you know I am taking one of my previous employers to court the lawyer said bono you need to come there are certain things you need to sign and all of that so I came to the court I arrived at about 9.30 the place where they were meant to attend to me was an admin part of the court when I came nobody asked later a couple of them came a lady and a guy the lady that came brought out a big ball from the left at about 12 that is what she was busy with till I left several of that desk on midday 12 some of that desk were still empty they had not resumed work they had not resumed one day there was almost dying of work there was one particular one it seems as if they have known it that is the they want to die here and these are people that we cry and protest and say they want salary increase this is it is taxpayer's money so if people do not in their individual space do not think that it is fundamentally they are obligated to be loyal to this country I mean we will keep being like this people also watch their leaders I have seen leaders in an office where people used to come late they just suddenly found out that the boss is at his desk that was what umai was you see I think it is only maybe fashion land fashion land that is the only place I was going to say to you that fashion land is so well so the Lagos Homes project I always make reference to this because I was a direct beneficiary and not because I knew anybody I was just you know when fashion estate campaigning for pay or tax pay or tax I actually saw the vision and I said this guy makes sense on my own I started paying my taxes so even when I was earning income like a salary they were deducting this but they were not earning it it was the taxes I was paying from my business that counted for me so when the Lagos Homes project started and they were saying that it is only tax payers so in fact he cut off all those bureaucracies and all the things that he said yes he cut it or he said any first of all it has to be a first time buyer you don't have a property in Lagos secondly you must be a tax payer those were the only two conditions you don't have any property that they can trace to your name on the Lagos lands and you must be a tax payer I said wow I thought it was a lie till today if you go to my estate in Ogba everybody were first time homeowners both the scheme one and scheme two first time homeowners so it was people that were telling me wow go and apply it was a friend of mine that called me and said go and apply I said are you sure in these Lagos you don't need to know anybody I could not believe it it was in the comfort of my home I typed I did everything filled the form how much I was earning everything my tax ID every single thing the next thing I got a mail that I had qualified like a pre-qualification then they did a draw and I won it was literally they didn't give me the the situation that I won I was thinking are you sure you don't know something that's coming so just to tell you that so if we truly want to change the system really I focus on who are these people that are leaders because if we still want to start bringing all these the person has to be for my there will be problem there will be problem because even the women now we've seen it is not it is not a gender problem we are trying to stop but in the roots what we said but in the roots what we said in that direction we will change this country because people will learn to trust the system and trust the leader I knew someone else was my colleague who won in that fashion last scheme in fact his name you can't even pronounce it he didn't believe that it was going to happen okay what have you got to do put your name now and he won he will never forget he won thank you wow so if you tell that kind of a person tomorrow that you want a cross river he will say why as long as you have my interest exactly so we need to move in that direction I wish we can who teach people they need to move in this direction belong we are very competent me I won thank you so much we learned a lot today absolutely I don't know if they will help me break this down we will be safe from bankruptcy praise the lord that would have been a disaster praise god where will they see money to pay where will they see money to pay the world boat where they see money to pay where will they see money after subscribe see you tomorrow in diversity, simple and short. We'll see you guys tomorrow at 8 p.m. as we bring another great conversation to your screen. Ciao!