 at the University of Oregon. She has over 20 years of project management experience with the focus on land use, transportation, economic development, and strategic planning projects. In her current position, she manages and conducts technical research on the secondary impacts of emerging technologies. So please join me in welcoming Becky. All right, well, thank you so much. I can tell you how thrilled I am to be down here, and I definitely appreciate both the lovely weather. It's nice and Portland as well, where I live, but it's really lovely to come down. So, and exciting for me too, it's probably been, I think, about 18 years since I've been in Santa Cruz. So things have changed since the last time I was here. So as you said, I work at the University of Oregon, and I have this really great job where I can think about the future and there's some things that are happening that as a land planner, I find to be really quite fascinating. And it all kind of comes down to what we can do with these phones and computers that are in our pockets and how it's changing transportation. And so, as we think of the future, I think we can look up pictures on the web, and to get pictures like this, the future's going to look maybe fast and shiny, I imagine. There's a lot of architects with black turtlenecks walking around, and our cities look nothing like this. So it's obvious the future's not here yet. And so we don't have to worry, it's not gonna come for a while. But really, our phones are letting us travel in very different ways, and that technology is really coming to the cities that we have today. And it's coming to Phoenix, Arizona, where right now, if you are one of 500 lucky families that you can be testing at times vehicles that are on the road right now. And so, as planners and people who live in a community, we really have to think about how this technology that's coming on very quickly is gonna change our cities. And when you think about it, the adoption of these different types of technology has been happening at a faster and faster rate. It took about 90, excuse me, about 100 years for the telephone to be in about 95% of households across the West. And as you can see as we get kind of closer and closer to present day, the curve is getting a lot steeper, that we're adopting those technologies a lot faster. And it's all going to take about 10 years to go from zero to about 95% of folks in adopting it. And so, when I think about, say, autonomous vehicles, the very first autonomous vehicle was tested in the United States in the far past of August of 2016 when Uber started testing in Pittsburgh. The first shipment of gear was shipped in Denver by a autonomous truck, a couple months after that. And then, Waymo started doing their testing and of course, Waymo is the autonomous vehicle arm of Alamed, which is one of the Google companies. And just in this last name, they announced that they're gonna start a commercial service for autonomous vehicles in the Phoenix area by the end of this year. There's, though, definitely some work that needs to be done around trust and how safe will these technologies really be. And we've seen, I think, in the media, some real concerns. Are we ever gonna be able to trust a machine to make the decisions that people do today? But don't keep in mind one of the reasons that these companies are really promoting autonomous vehicles is because about 40,000 people die in the United States every year from car crashes. And about another two million are seriously injured and have to go to the hospital. And about 90% of those crashes are caused by a destructive driving or incapacitated driving. And so they're really trying to aim down if we can reduce that. And if people can really trust that the machines will do a better job than we can save lives on the road. So if they can achieve that safety, then there's really no reason to have them on our roads. And so, like I said, I am studying not only autonomous vehicles, but also e-commerce and the sharing economy. And I'm not studying the technology itself, but really thinking how is it going to change city form and city development? And so some things to think about, and something for the folks that I've been talking to and working with, we're seeing kind of the difference in the way that we actually access and use transportation. So historically, we pretty much had a model where we older our own vehicles. I bet everyone in this room probably has one in their household. And right now, we might still have that vehicle, but we're experimenting with all these different ways that you can access transportation. Whether it's Zipcar or Biketown is my hometown. It's not a bike share. Lion or a bird are the e-scooters. And of course UberLift, hard to go with those kinds of things. And it's really this potential change in a model of accessing transportation where at some point you might actually stop purchasing vehicles or, I might, and you might always have a car, but my kids, my daughter was in third grade, might not ever get her driver's license. She might not ever purchase a vehicle and instead she might just purchase and rent that small bit of the transportation system that she needs at that time, at that price, with that convenience and cost that works for her. And I can't wait to get the ride on the rocket. Let me pass the bill. And you don't have to just press me, but you can also start to follow the money. Companies like Ford are really investing in the smart mobility. And so they have announced they're going to be investing about $4 billion, not just in autonomous vehicles, but also mobility as a service. And they really see the future as not just building cars, but then also providing the ride. And so not only are they helping to develop autonomous vehicles, but they're also purchasing, they have a car share, or certainly a bike share company, and they also purchase chariot, which is a microtransit. So really thinking about moving around groups of people and offering that service. I would say GM also announced about a $3 billion investment and I think it was just last year, about a year ago, that 10 out of the top 11 major car manufacturers announced that they would have autonomous vehicles within the next four years. And so I think some will probably achieve that, others maybe not so much, but it's definitely a change that the car companies are investing in their betting on. And so definitely thinking about autonomous vehicles and I think you're gonna see vehicles that look very similar and familiar to what we have right now, but there's no reason they have to look exactly like that. And so we might see some real, some of the prototypes actually are getting pretty wild from I just saw something today where someone had proposed putting an office on wheels or a hotel room on wheels or a cafe on wheels. They can get you where you need to go while you do something else. I was definitely afraid to talk a little bit more about this. The way we move goods is likely to change once it's automated and then transit. And there's some things to think about and some real questions about how this is going to impact cities and communities and one of those questions is, are these gonna be all individually owned kind of like we do right now or is it gonna be owned by fleets? And one of the arguments that I would make is that it's likely to be in fleets and that companies like Uber and Lyft are likely to have a fleet of autonomous vehicles and then offer the service with your phone or you just order that service. And so one of the things that's great for me definitely as a researcher is that we can look at the city impacts we see right now from Uber and Lyft and kind of extrapolate well, what happens when you actually automate that. We think of those companies as being autonomous vehicles but with drivers. And there's some real differences that happen. Everybody has their own autonomous vehicle and I imagine a Monday morning where I get my ride to work and then the vehicle comes back empty and it picks up my son and it takes him to his school and then it comes back and it gets my daughter and it takes her and for each of those rides there's an empty amount of time. And so anything with fleets, you've got those cars that are driving around maybe are a little bit more efficient to think about is, and it's something that we see today. The difference between, are we going to be purchasing these rides just for ourselves alone so that we can have some alone time and having kids like really value that? Are we gonna share rides? Are we gonna carpool? And there's some real differences between the amount of traffic and congestion between these two options. And really if we continue with the single occupancy vehicles then some of the preliminary modeling shows that the congestion that's on our roads go through the roof. Like they give me two or three times or even more than what we have today. And it's a lot of those, I'm already ruining my next slide but because of some of those empty miles. Even if you have shared rides there's been some studies and modeling done by a consulting firm. And even under the best scenario where 75% of the rides are shared, congestion still increases by about 40%. So let that kind of sink in a little. And as I said, a lot of that is because of the potential for vehicles to be empty and be driving around without anybody in them. And as we affectionately call our zombie cars. And as we're thinking about this too, it's important to think about the role of transit and the importance of transit. And so as I'm talking about all this definitely kind of keep that in mind. But one of the most efficient ways to move people around is by dedicated transit. And one of the important things to keep in mind as well is that hopefully our public transit agencies are thinking about how do you move everybody no matter how much money they have or what parts of town they're in. There's equity related concerns. If we end up giving over the ability for people to move around and buy the companies and are they really gonna make sure that all people can get a ride. And even those companies today have a hard time moving families that might need a car seat or have a wheelchair or other need additional help getting kind of in and out of vehicles. There's real concerns that those companies will be able to provide that use. And I just want to emphasize this too because again some of the preliminary modeling of what this could look like and how many people might move to autonomous vehicles is showing that transportation use could decrease by up to 40%. And I don't know an agency as soon as it starts to go with the single digits they're starting to get kind of service and it has real financial implications. And so I don't know what transit agency survives at 40% of their service gets away. So it has a real kind of implications of what are we gonna do about this. So far I've really talked about mobility as a service and how people move around. So I'm gonna kind of switch gears here a little bit and think a little bit more about how goods move. How many of you are in some private members? Can you hear it? What did you say? Oh, how many people are Amazon Prime members or ordered something online to link to? And so we've probably seen a lot more delivery trucks in our neighborhoods and I actually saw technology in the wilds about a year ago. I was in Washington, DC and I saw this little delivery drone going down the sidewalk and it's one of those things you see and you know, oh, this is going in our presentation. So I'm getting my phone and I'm like, I'm taking a picture and there's a gentleman that's walking behind it. And so I asked if it's okay if I take a picture and what are you doing? And he's like, well, we're testing in Washington, DC. These drones have to have a handler that we're not touching, I'm not doing anything. And we're making a Chipotle delivery. So this is the new Burrito delivery service coming to a place near you. You know, on every visit, I'm probably gonna replace this picture in Future Slides, Kroger's, which is one of the largest grocery store chains in the country. Right now is just starting an autonomous service. And it's something kind of similar to that but a larger and refrigerated kind of version, smaller than a car vehicle that would then deliver groceries. And so they're starting to do tests and pilots of that. So, you know, work right now, when I need an A in case I bake cookies with my kids and I would go to my neighbor's house, you know, in the future, possibly could then just order it and say I want to deliver it right away and then have that delivery come pretty quickly. And I want to just think a little bit too about, you know, so as we are purchasing more and more things online, at the same time, we're seeing the retail environment really change across the country. Right now, about probably a little less than a third of the malls in the country are kind of at risk for closing. And we've definitely seen quite a few big box stores that have gone bankrupt for a variety of reasons, but definitely, e-commerce is not helping many or a lot of debt that haven't been able to work their way out of it. There's about 7,000 stores that closed in 2017, which was more than closed during the Great Recession. So a real kind of shift in the retail environment. And kind of what we're seeing also is this change to experiential retail. So this is a mall that's in Buritino and the proposal is to replace kind of this debt in the dying mall and replace it with a much more vibrant development. And so this one would have about 2,400 housing units and about, hope those would be affordable housing. I'm remembering my numbers correctly. I think there's another 400,000 square feet of entertainment and food places in retail. And then over 1.8 million square feet of office space. So a lot of the malls around the country, they develop about every 20 years. And these days, the improvements that are going in, at least the most common improvement is for food and drink. So people are definitely going out and they wanna have a great meal and then they might do some shopping while they're doing it. Or they definitely want program space. Some places are putting yogurt in or kids' parks. Actually, entertainment for kids is really big too. And then housing is right up there as well. And our desire for two-day delivery and eventually maybe two-hour delivery is definitely good news for people that have industrial land. And so we're seeing a real boom in the development of warehouses and that distribution network as these companies. We wanna make sure that their goods are as close as possible to the larger metropolitan areas so they can get them and deliver them faster than they can. So since roughly 2012, industrial prices have actually all doubled in many locations around the country. So as I said, I'm guessing another few have cars. And what are those cars doing right now? They're probably parked. Like my car actually looks like that in the parking lot at the Portland Airport. Our cars are parked about 95% of the time so it's a real huge investment to stay stationary. And as we're thinking about this technology, one of the things that I think is really fascinating about it is that whether it's an Uber or Lyft or an autonomous vehicle eventually, they don't even park in the same places I might wanna park my own vehicle. And so what becomes much more important is that drop off and pick up zone. And so that it goes, we're starting to see a shift in the demand for parking. Right now it's primarily at airports because more and more people are taking Uber's to Lyft State airports as well as folks that are going out at night and don't wanna drive drunk. It's much less expensive to have somebody else drive you and it's much more prevalent than it was before. And I find it really fascinating talking to transportation planners and people that give advice on parking. And so that my folks at our work have our predicting peak parking where that demand still might be going up today because we have minimum parking standards for our developments. But really they see with these emerging technologies that it's probably gonna peak and then that demand is gonna start to go down. So they are recommending to their clients to build the minimum amount of parking that you can get away with and then to really think about your developments and how you put them on the lots so that you can redevelop those parking lots at some point in the future. And so which is fairly easy if you've got a service parking lot but then if you have to do any kind of structured parking then really think about are you gonna reconstruct that at some point in the future so don't have it connected to the building itself where you've got your uses or to think about how you might be able to repurpose that. There's still the need for and right now the estimates are maybe 10 to 20% of the parking that we already have that we will still need for those autonomous vehicles or other specialized vehicles thinking about ambulances or for companies that are doing landscaping there's definitely those kind of commercial uses for vehicles as well. And they'll need a place to get charged as well as to get clean and maintained things like that. And so it's been real fascinating to think about how those uses could be those uses could be repurposed. And so if you're in one of the large cities across the country, many cities like Portland where I'm from have changed from minimum parking requirements to maximum parking requirements. And they're really allowing the market to determine how much parking is really needed. And so in that kind of a place there's not a lot of service parking right now. And most of those that house some of our best food carts are in the process of redevelopment. So we're definitely seeing that demand in kind of those central locations. But if you're in kind of a more suburban area or somewhere not in that central downtown like restroom which is on the eastern side of the Portland metropolitan area then your land development patterns look a little bit different. And you've got a lot of opportunities which is great if you've got a high demand for development but I think don't. So it might probably still pretty good in Russia but if you're in a restaurant state or in other places around the country where there's not that kind of demand then just putting more developable land out to the market is not good for your property values. It's not good for your property taxes. So it has real kind of financial implications of how things are likely to be disrupted and changed. I mentioned the possibility of repurposing some parking garages. And so some folks are really starting to think about that now as they develop new ones because there's a lot of things that have to change and most of our parking garages you can't redevelop into something else because the floor to a ceiling height is too low and you need that space for water and sewer and air electrical services, things like that and the building that has people in it. The ramps that are, if you have any floors that are sloped are not good for people that want to live on a slope. And there's other kinds of systems that even support engineering that a parking garage has not really built to be then redeveloped into office or residential or retail. So some folks are starting to think about maybe we need to invest upfront and plan for those parking garages to develop into something else in the future. So this is pretty exciting for me to really think about you know as I was saying earlier today, you know as a planner usually what we do is we look at the past and we make some assumptions that you know that what has happened in the past, you know that's kind of what the future is going to look somewhat like that. And we'll make a few, we'll fuzz around the edges here and make some adjustments. But with this new technology that our phones enable us to achieve, there's some real fundamental changes that happen. And it definitely allows, as the demand for parking goes down, it allows our kind of commercial areas and downtowns where people want to be to be much denser. It means we can put things a lot closer together and make it easier to walk and to build our streets right to bike and really to be able to get around and build that kind of mentality and interest. And it has implications too. I'm not sure how many office parks we have that might have acres and acres of parking, but a lot of those new employees might not be coming with their own personal vehicle at some point in the future so that we'll probably see some other changes even in these urban areas. And there's a real opportunity for housing and to think about what our communities need and where's their opportunities to put housing close to either transit or to schools or to closer to jobs. How can we really make some of those changes and build the kind of communities that we want? And it has real implications for streets because we've been using streets differently than we have in the past. And so transportation engineers are starting to think about how do you arrange things so that our autonomous vehicles still make it safe for people to walk or to bike or folks that are getting on and off of public transit but they're not running them over. And so I have some real questions. Are they gonna have their, you know, is an autonomous vehicle gonna have its own lane and do we need to do something different for scooters? Like what does this really look like? So the folks at the National Association of City Transportation Officials, NACDO, have done a little bit of thinking about this and I love their modeling around it and really kind of thinking about, you know, kind of what's a typical street section and what's the capacity of that section kind of at its peak. So for this example, they gave, you know, you can probably get about 30,000 people per hour through that section and to the whole car and with bus on the side. Let's think about the future and what's the possibility, say, where the time is vehicles and with some higher capacity transit? And you can get so many more people through that corridor if we can figure things differently and we can potentially do it in a much more pleasant atmosphere by building, you know, or planting trees and making the sidewalks larger and you can make it definitely much more interesting and hopefully a lot safer. So, and if our cities actually become denser like there's the potential for them to, then the only way to get the capacity of people through is by considering that high capacity transit. So it's having to be worth, you know, thinking into the future of what our cities could potentially look like and then how do you actually move them around? Like I said, folks are starting to envision what this might look like. So Lyft is partnered with a firm called Perkinsonville and they envision what Wilshire Boulevard down in Los Angeles could potentially look like. And so it's been really interesting. And again, I think it's important to really think about how we access the curve and the drop off the pickup and making sure that we get that right because if we don't, then there's a new fresh hell that's awaiting anyone who has dropped off or picked up kids from an elementary school from the recent past is probably experienced. The potential for having any of those places where everybody wants to be there at the same time and to have that kind of backup is pretty extreme. And definitely you're starting to see that kind of congestion just with the TMCs, the Transportation Network companies like Uber Lyft and some of the largest metropolitan areas to my San Francisco experience and New York, Washington DC, places like that. So on one side, I've focused right now so far really on thinking about our central cities and what our downtowns might potentially look like. But now we have, saying at a time as vehicle, the opportunity to do something other than driving when we're in there. We could actually take up an office phone call back in the 60s. They thought we would be playing a Scrabble or I mean, Bintwatch, Game of Thrones, which is one of my favorites. And so some of the modeling has suggested that people are gonna be much more willing to go even farther out and then farther away if they can still have that comfortable kind of private ride into wherever they need to go. And so if you wanna live in the woods or if you wanna live in a more suburban location, then it really allows you that ability to live even farther and farther away, which again kind of has implications for the congestion and the total vehicle miles traveled that we might end up doing on our roads. And also, I'm talking about this as being almost like a domino and you sometimes can't anticipate all the different changes that are likely to happen. But a lot of folks are starting to pay attention because autonomous vehicles are likely to be either hybrid or electric vehicles because there's so much electronics on board that have to be run. And so having a bigger battery pack is really kind of one of the things that they need, which is great for the environment. Having more electric vehicles is definitely a better way to get around than conventional fuel vehicles. And so, but of course one of the ways we fund our roads is through the fuel stacks. And so when Ben Affleck stops filling up his gas tank, how are we going to be paying for our roads? And so there's definitely some of the strategies that places from around the country are starting to think about. They're also thinking about how do we price the vehicles in the future to make sure that the user is actually paying for the services they get for the roads that they're using? It's on one hand, let's think about how we pay for our roads, but then there's also the opportunity to start paying for congestion. So if you're going to live really far out and you wanna come in right during peak, commute hours and you're adding to that overall congestion, then it might make more sense to start to price that to try to change that behavior. This is a real behavioral experiment that we're undergoing right now. We're just starting. And so it's gonna be interesting where the political will is going to come to make changes and see those levers start to change. Wow, it's so exciting how it is. All of this has implications for how we pay for public services and public infrastructure. It has implications for the environment, not only greenhouse gas emissions, but think about air quality as well as water quality, stormwater runoff. You can even think about emergency services. You know, one of the things that I often talk about too is kind of some of the unintended things you don't think about, but if these vehicles really are so much safer than our cars right now, then there's the whole crash economy. There's the police and emergency responders that won't have to respond to all of those crashes or people are killed. There's not the hospitals and the doctors and nurses that will then have to treat all of those people. There's not the insurance or the lawyers that will then be paying out claims or filing lawsuits. So it's kind of this ripple effect of a lot of different jobs start to change as well. And then finally, I think I implied, there's potentially changes on land value and land valuation as well as our tax revenues as well. So kind of those rippling effects. So I'm hoping that I'm impressed upon that 80s are not a transportation issue and e-commerce is not a retail issue. These are everything issues that really impact the way government services are provided and everyone's lives. So at Urbanism Next, the University of Oregon, we're thinking about those secondary impacts and really thinking about, again, kind of some of those different levers that can be kind of pushed and pulled dealing around land use, urban design, transportation, and then real estate and really thinking about how you design your cities, how you regulate and the laws that influence this technology and how it's actually rolled out communities as well as how you can potentially price it to get the kinds of travel behavior that are really good for your community. And it's thinking about those different levers are used and really, overall, it's important to continue to think about the overall outcomes that you end up getting from it related to equity and thinking about those most vulnerable people in your community and how this technology impacts them or doesn't. If you don't have a smartphone and there's a lot of people that are unbanked or don't speak English or don't have a credit card, and so if their transit options go away, how do they get around? There's health related issues, where if we have more and more people that are sitting in their cars, that's the last opportunity to walk a bike to get exercise moving around. The environmental greenhouse, thinking about greenhouse gas emissions. A company is gonna be a really interesting one. Both thinking about retail, the most common, often the most common job, in a community is retail related and e-commerce is definitely increasing, they're hiring people, but it's definitely in different places and not the same number. So you don't see as many people in e-commerce as you do in brick and mortar retail stores. So it's a reshuffling and definitely people are not necessarily in the same places. Almost every community has a downtown retail. There was an article that I read from a postal worker in Idaho and he was like, I knew that retail was really changing things when I delivered a plain bottle of bleach up to somebody in some rural group. They weren't coming into town to purchase it, they were just ordering it online. And so it's really kind of a fundamental change and we're likely to see. I think the estimates are between like a 20 and 28% year over year increase on online shopping, at least for the next five years and probably off into the future as well. So some real big changes. And finally, in governance. And this is where I get to work with cities suddenly in the Pacific Northwest and hopefully around the country as well, thinking about what are the policies and the programs and the pricing that you need to think about to make sure that this technology helps you achieve your community goals and doesn't create barriers for doing so. And so of course, my motto is cities that think ahead, stay ahead. We really have to think about the secondary impacts and how they're gonna impact our communities and not just enable the technology to come and to kind of drive over us. So as part of that, the University of Oregon is doing a fair amount of research. We have a blog, a blog website. And we also do research reports and we're working on a clearing house. I think I'm almost done, which looks like it's good. And there goes the technology. We have a conference. We had our first conference just this last year and about 500 people from around the country came to talk about how this technology is impacting their cities. And we're having our next one next May. And with that, I'm happy to answer any questions you might have. Thank you, Senator. Are you saying that buses have to operate at least 40% capacity to be, to get, not to make problems? No, no, that transit ridership might decrease by 40%. Because of? Because people would switch. Actually, so there's been about four or five different surveys that have been done around that country and they've asked people, if you took an Uber and Lyft, what would you have otherwise done if that wasn't available? And so about 60% of the people say, I would have walked, I would have biked, or I would have taken transit. So we're switching and replacing those, kind of, the active transportation with this kind of inactive transportation. The other 40% either would have taken their own car or they wouldn't have taken the trip at all. So it's, when you hear folks talk from those transportation network companies, they said that they're replacing other vehicle trips. And in reality, they're probably replacing only a small fraction of other single-eyed CDO trips. Take that gentleman in the green. I don't know if you've been agreed, but there's a controversial project that the city's hand crews is considering, which would build a five-story parking garage on a surface lot and incorporate part of the building to have a new library. The preliminary design by the architects was the parking on ramp design instead of flat floors and a spiral access ramp. When are the architects gonna learn what you're talking about and say, we don't build them that way anymore? I have to say, I don't not think about the particulars for this, but I am a huge fan of you having read Donald Shoe and the high-cost free parking. It's even if you're not a transportation geek like I am, he is a fabulous writer and really talks about the high-cost free parking. And like I said, the transportation experts that we're talking to are definitely recommending that you build as little parking as possible. And there's a real question, the example that I often give is in the city of Sacramento. They are helping to finance their new arena for their basketball team through parking fees. And so they have a 50-year bond and I think it's roughly $200 million that they've invested in their arena. They're counting on about $60 million worth of parking fees to help to finance that. And over the next 50 years, I can, I'm pretty confident, I'll probably be dead by then, I'm pretty confident though that they are not gonna be able to, they're not gonna see those revenues into the future. And even already, in San Francisco, there's at least one or two downtown parking garages and some of the revenues for that parking go towards parks. And they're already starting to see, like I'm gonna say the headline that I saw was like a 20% dip in parking revenues. And so it was impacting the park services that they could provide. It might take a little bit longer to come to Santa Cruz, but again, those trends seem to be, and I don't know how the city's planning on paying for it, but it seems like that parking is, if you're counting on any kind of revenues to pay for that, that it's becoming even more risky than it might have been in the past. So my question was are the architects who designed these buildings, getting the message you're talking about, because they're still designing bad parking structures? Well, it's definitely something that we're working on. And so the University of Oregon has a really great architecture program, and our conference is actually a partnership with the American Institute of Architects, the American Society of Landscape Architects, the American Planning Association, and the Urban Land Institute, so developers. So we're definitely trying to work with all of those professionals that work in the built environment to really talk about these issues. The other thing that's really challenging also is the banks and folks that finance developments, because even in some of the places where they have maximum, you can't build more than this much bad parking, but you can go, you know, you don't have to build any. Even in those situations when developers say I want to maybe build just a little bit of parking, the folks financing it say, you know, you have to build more, we don't think your development is going to be viable unless you do build more. So there's a variety of folks who really have to convince that there's a different kind of architecture. I don't think John had the hack. I'd like to refer to the parking structure. I think it's an evidence of direction from your planning department. And they kind of lead your architects. So, you know, I think we have a problem with our planning. Pan is here. With another issue that we refer to is what they call smart streets. Like we have, everywhere is going on, particularly more down in your city. But skepticism with it is that supposedly people in high density amongst street corridors are going to take mass transit, but they don't. And because they have parking. And that's what you have in a apartment. You eliminated parking and you had to cry out from the public, we don't have parking. We don't want to drive to the powerhouse. But I think we should refer to the stuff that you see. But I think we have, we're talking about all these options that people drive. And it gets down to the juggernaut that we have with Highway 117. And what's the solution to that problem? I mean, I have an idea. You know, it's all over the country, all the cities, they have tremendous congestion. They have, of course, CL2s. Absolutely, yeah. There's probably nothing that induces driving more than having parking lots. And there's probably nothing that kind of increases the overall traffic and congestion than having the parking lots. Because it always makes it the more convenient and often more comfortable way of getting around. Yeah, it just comes from your planners. They allow parking. And we have this right here at our main corridors where they call smart streets, but it's not going to work. You know, it definitely takes time for anything to change. We didn't build this over, it's taken us probably really, probably like a 40 year period to kind of get where we are today. And again, I think where I'm so excited about this and where we see it definitely in some of these larger cities is that we have a real opportunity. And I definitely see it among the changes you see in the younger generation. Like when you look at who's using kind of an Uber lift or a scooter or even the bike share, bike around, there's something a large portion of people that are younger that are doing it and they're kind of walking back to cities because they want to live in communities where it's easier to walk and bike. And if you can make that easy and convenient and affordable, then people will do it. And City of Seattle is probably one of the best examples. They've passed a number of bond measures over the last, like just given a couple of years. They're investing in their transit. They're making it much more convenient. And that is one of the places where transit use is going up and auto bill use is going down. They're putting, they're building housing and they're putting it closer to their downtown. So it makes it easier and closer and more convenient to be able to take that transit and be able to get where they need to go. So it takes, think about the billions of dollars we've invested in our roads and in our parking. So it's no wonder people are driving because we've made it incredibly easy for them. We need to make transit and biking and walking just as easy. So speaking of biking, can you speak to any efforts to make e-bikes charging more standardized and more accessible? Because today I spent about 20 minutes heading around my work place or place of plug in my bike and ended up working with, it struck me as a, as kind of an edge case. Yeah, actually there's a number of cities. Again, I think Seattle is one of the leaders that are talking about mobility hubs. And so really thinking about how kind of this new mobility environment really works together. And so how can we make sure that we build locations where you can get transit that they can also park your e-bike or you can get your new scooter or you can easily change from one boat to another. And so there's definitely more and more efforts I think to really think about that in cities. If they haven't already, a lot of them are starting to develop more of a e-vehicle, electric vehicle strategies and really thinking about the infrastructure that goes in. And so a number of places around the country, and this is I know kind of geared towards cars, but I think more localities, especially as e-bike use increases, that's relatively easy to start putting in their building codes or in their parking codes so that even if they're not requiring necessarily the charging, they'll say no, put in the conduit. So it's really easy for you to be able to just hook it up in the future as that demand starts to increase. I try to avoid the driving around the bay or as much as I can. However, when I went up to the East Bay this summer, I was very distraught that they have the high occupancy vehicle lanes. I don't know if this is happening in other places, if this is like a trend. So you could be in the high occupancy vehicle lane if you paid. And I thought, wow, that's an equity issue. Like what, the poor people are stuck in the traffic over here. And so that was upsetting. But then when, now it seems like I just read a headline quickly that now that this feature is available, the fast lane isn't fast anymore. So it's all good luck. Is this sort of a new idea that like other places are adopting or are they realizing or following? You know, there's a lot of discussion around around how we usually don't price our roads. And definitely a great place to look for more information is Joe Fort Wright and City Observatory. I think he's doing some really excellent work in this area. And one of his arguments is that the price is wrong. And his example is the Ben & Jerry's free ice cream day. And which is a lot that's kind of his comparison to the way that we price our roads. That on free ice cream day, you know, we're willing to wait in this really incredible, like long line so that we can get our free ice cream. Just like when we're driving around, you know, our roads, quote unquote, are free. And so we spend our, we pay with our time instead of paying specifically. And that has a value to it too. So I definitely want to say that you don't actually spend money on that. But it's making that realization that the price is wrong. And we haven't priced our roads in a way that really makes sense. And where pricing, I think, really works. And for those people who want that and are willing to pay for it, then you take some of that money and you make sure that the other people that don't have that financial opportunity, you start to invest in the transit or the other ways that will rape them people or disadvantaged populations can make it much easier for them to get around. So it's means pricing the roads right and then also making wise investments so that you can really help all people in your community. It's not easy. This is really hard stuff. You know, if it was easy, we would have figured it out. We wouldn't have an investor, but we have. So, there's the two gentlemen. I'll take the one with the one with the glasses right there. Yeah, actually, just on that last subject in the Bay Area, they're talking about expanding Highway 101 and how to toll, another toll lane where the cost of the toll money is going to go largely to one in the highway. So I don't know how much it's going to get to transit. But actually my question is about your comment that, you know, one or two futures where automated vehicles might be ride services and fleets of vehicles and less private ownership in another scenario where there's lots of private ownership and people are driving them far more because they don't mind. What can local communities like ours do in the near future to steer in one direction by the way? You know, what more and more of communities it's been really interesting. And I would say I have the most experience with the city of Portland that has both bike share and then these scooters and their contact and then as well as the transportation network companies. And there's definitely been this evolution where the planners there used to say, you know, we thought about all of these different modes as just being very separate and we'd have to come up with different regulations for each of them. And they're finding actually the fundamentals really start to flow across them all. And so the importance of thinking about, how does this impact everyone? So thinking about the equity related impacts. Also thinking about the kinds of data that you need because it's really hard to manage but you can't measure. And so for example, for the e-commerce deliveries, there's almost nobody who is measuring that or has that kind of information about how many deliveries are being made. So it's very anecdotal or very kind of spot by spot basis. So starting to work with those technology companies to say, you know, what kind of information do we need so that we can make wise investments in the millions of dollars we're investing in just transportation infrastructure in our communities. And then build into it that price. So when the city of Portland came up with its e-scooter policy, they built into that that the companies have to give them 25 cents for every ride that's taken on an e-scooter. And it's more important to put into that there's gonna be sun charge and you can figure out exactly what that charge might be but it's harder to say no charge or charge than it is to say one cent to $100 per charge. So building into it that ability to price at some either immediately or at some point in the future. And really, again, I would say having conversations with folks in Arizona that saw this as, you know, they really had welcomed in the autonomous vehicle testing with open arms. They're kind of anti-regulation and they saw some economic development opportunity that they were gonna give all this technology money and also they have really wide open roads and, you know, no ice or snow is, you know, it's a really great place for the autonomous vehicles to test. But, you know, really I would say be clear about what your goals are. Because if you don't wanna see more congestion, then build that in. You can cap the number of vehicles that are in your city. You can really think about, you know, what kinds of things can you do to increase shared drives and there's regulations and some promising practices because I would say this is an area that's really developing but there's definitely promising practices around that and pay attention. Again, I would say the leaders in this area right now are both Seattle and Los Angeles. There's definitely other places around the country that are thinking about all of these topics but those two are probably have done more thinking about it than any other place around the country. So pay attention to that. I'm gonna take a gentleman right next to me. Oh, thank you. So, marking structures in particular are revenue streams for cities and so just with you commenting on that aspect, city planners need to plan for their retirement and their future employment as much as anyone else. Oh yeah, City of Portland, I know, has about $50 million a year that they get in per capita and so it has a huge impact and that's just City of Portland. Guys, there's a slide that I've gotten in another presentation where you look at, they did a survey of just how much revenue was raised from citations. So either parking citations or moving violations to parking revenues, parking revenues far and away, I would say, is out of all these different other kinds of transportation related revenue streams, raises more money in the top 25 metropolitan areas than any of the other ones combined, like maybe by a scale of two or three. And so it's, and states and eventually the feds are gonna have to think of a whole new way of funding infrastructure and for paying for these things that right now are paying through these sources and there's nothing that's more fun than coming up with a new tax or fee than deciding how much parking you're gonna build. That's gonna be a winner up in the back. So my question, my thought classification on convergence and convergence is fine. And my concern is, how do we get these honest peoples out of our way so that we can respond to convergence? I don't know, there's facts in any of these stuff. Well, I was just saying, my question. Oh, okay, go ahead. We'll start that question. So, intervention of natural disaster or man-made catastrophe, if we lose technology with technology as vulnerable to crashing, how do we ensure that the autonomous vehicles that are not occupied by somebody who can drive know to get out of the way of fire truck vehicles to police car? And also know where to see people over to get out of the way of that vehicle. Because there's no real human driver there. How do they know that you can squeeze your vehicle in there and give that fire truck an uproar? Electric vehicles are great. I gotta say that I've been championing of electric vehicles and in fact, I started controlling the SUV on an electric motorcycle. It's made me stop talking, great deal. But I also live in a very remote area, very narrow roads. I don't see how an autonomous vehicle get down my street in a windstorm. I've had wires that have come down to the windshield height where an autonomous vehicle will be able to detect all the obstacles and what would the solution be to turn an employee or just shut down the spot like they currently do now? So how do we make sure that our roads can be clear in case of disaster or emergency, emergency vehicles can respond? Those are really good questions. And there are some. So I'm actually on a statewide autonomous vehicle task force for the state of Oregon. That's a legislative task force and they're working right now primarily on enabling legislation. And there's definitely roles at the federal state and the local level. At the federal level, usually they have safety regulations to make sure that their car is safe and you know, seatbelt laws are not the laws again to click it or to get, but having a seatbelt and just how the car is designed. And then at the state level is all of the, there's usually all the licensing registration and insurance liability and some of those kinds of things. At the local level it's the environment that the, that's what we really regulate. And so like I said, I know more about the secondary impacts and thinking about those than the technology themselves. It's definitely something that the car companies are thinking about and they have protocols. And when I talk to the folks at WEMO, they do training with the emergency providers and especially police because the cars can both register the sirens and they can also see and register the lights. And so they have a protocol and they will stay pulled over while the vehicle is behind. But I think that there are a few things that the responders have to do to basically signal that. So it's like, it's not, it's not like how we do it now. Well, in an emergency situation, it's like we've had problems where the road is so narrow, but we've had that through a seconds matter that people have actually pulled their vehicles up onto the sidewalk in order to let the emergency responders through. What an autonomous vehicle will know that it can pull up onto a sidewalk in an emergency. We can't have somebody trying to drive home to be able to. It's an interesting idea, but it's one that can also create greater problems too. Yeah, that's what I do not know the answer to. And then we'll go back. But I think it's one that we need to keep on asking. These are clearly rapidly evolving and challenging. And of course here in Santa Cruz, we have material and equity in our highway. People who live in some county are definitely suffering from this disproportionate level of people that live in your county in terms of how their stock feels like that's larger than the Siltan Valley, Menui, and we have, we have the rail corridor, which is a narrow corridor, is another polarization here in the town, trying to figure out what to do with that. And my question is, it has to prevent this very transitionary time. And we're looking towards the future and we would like to help people stuck in the traffic right now. We also need to think about hues, right? So it's veritable to be transit and people walking, biking on e-bikes, trying to make way to promote not just, not just making it safer now, but also making it so much safer that they'll have that 50 to 60% of people who are interested in concerns and not currently getting on bikes, actually transitioning to bikes soon. It's on the back of that one too. How are other places transitioning? So I know, I said the Siltan Valley Bikes on it, there was a young guy who was in active transportation in Seattle there, and he spoke about Seattle, probably like Portland, I'm imagining, is embracing millennials and putting in transit and protected cycling as quickly as possible. They're not doing pain under rows, they're not doing the type of bikes and stuff, they're settling for a year because they actually want to get a whole new crowd of people on bikes and they want to meet with their families and the standard population and build a city that's welcoming younger people where it feels like Sanitary is a building that's sitting for rich retirees and vacationers. So I'm just curious, how do we, how do you prioritize between making real decisions for people walking and biking and also trying to put in transit for the future? There's definitely improvements that have to be done to the infrastructure itself, so it is safer and more convenient to walk, but you're not gonna get the kind of change that you're really looking for until you really change your land use patterns. And people today are driving because they have to, not necessarily because they want to, because things are really spread out and we do have large parking lots and we make all these different uses really far apart or we are immune to jobs that are really far away or our schools are far away. And you're never gonna get to the kind of different types of behaviors that you're looking for until you really make those different types of places that you want to go closer together. And often that means it's kind of that magic within a mile or two with e-bikes and these scooters actually, that starts to be like almost like a three mile kind of radius where you're more likely to get that kind of behavior, but if you happen to have your housing close to your shops and your schools and your jobs, then you're never gonna get that uptake and bike and walk that you are really looking for in your community. It just makes it so much harder. So it's both the transportation and the land use change that has to be made. So then, far right, Dave, you're gonna? I'm not sure. One of the more unstatistical aberrations to how states would evolve that it just happened to be the man you found, that there are cats and I was around there at that time, there's kind of many decisions and just kind of just happened to work for an old dipper town that managed to modernize without the baggage that other states would have. As opposed to I know people who commute from, let's say, Gresham that you're familiar with to Lake of Sweden, and if you took care of it, and yet the image you're putting in is if everybody's concentrated around Portland downtown kind of thing. And so I'm at kind of a lot of sorts of words or thought of how to bridge those disparate pictures. Yeah, oh yeah, I mean, it's brilliant for me because I live three and a half miles from downtown and I can follow up my friend's door and onto a bus and it takes me exactly where I wanna go within usually 25 minutes. But it's definitely not that way for everybody in the Portland metro area and there's horrible traffic and there's horrendous commutes. But, and this is where Joe Carright has the numbers and I can't pull them out of my head at the moment, but on average, the average Portland person travels and I think he's roughly five miles less, something in that, I don't have it exactly right, but it's roughly in that proportion that the average American commute spends less time commuting and so they save that portion of money and it ends up being, I think millions of dollars every year that you can spend on something else. I think the stars aligned in the 70s and some really good decisions remain, but you have just as much kind of sprawl and sprawl developments throughout kind of Portland and the Portland metro areas, you have bits of both and it really tastes some hard decisions and it's hard to get everybody, or enough people to agree to make it happen. So that's a challenge we have in Oregon today as well. So I think we're probably getting close to our time. Quarity. Quarity, I'm not sure how much more time we have, but I'm happy to keep on talking. I'm gonna try to get people that haven't talked yet. I have a quick question along the equiline. See, land use patterns are well established in our community and the job centers are well established and those will take a long time to change and right now land use in our community sort of they thrive until they can afford to live and so the distance they have to travel is directly proportional to their income ability and many of those people directly relate to an option. So in terms of thinking about transit, how do we, what's forms of transit will best solve that equity problem? I realize it's, we better everybody move to the city, but until that happens, is max transit, the one solution is buses better than trains are, what's the mix? Is there a mix that addresses the equity and steps? You know, the best solution is to build a lot more housing in the places where people wanna live, which I know this will answer your question because it's, and you see it in the marketplace, it's kind of the demand and supply and you know, in the Portland Metro area, we're finally actually, there's thousands of units that have come on since the recession, since the height of the recession and we're finally starting to see with those new units coming on, like prices are starting to flat line and start to actually go down. It's, that will make such a bigger difference than not doing it and so there's definitely, you can look at the different types of transit and of course fixed rail transit, light rail is some of the most expensive kinds of transit that you can purchase, buses are so much less expensive and there's bus rapid transit, which I don't know if you're familiar with, but it almost kind of acts a little bit more like a train, they often have dedicated lanes and they do light signalization and so they prioritize the bus and anything they can do to help that bus move faster than this around the traffic, makes it that much faster and that's something else too actually to think about, especially with the Thomas vehicles because of course we could prioritize buses and bus systems and say, if you're in a single occupancy vehicle, then you have to get the right way to the buses that come through, like there's all this kind of programming that we could potentially do to make the movement through traffic more equitable and again incentivize that, which makes the system much more efficient. I didn't get it back. So, I'm not familiar with our community or our neighborhood, but it's our part of city and just a good example would be, say, somebody lives in Cremont, they work in San Francisco, which is gonna be cheaper for them to take BART by BART ticket or hire a member? And on top of that, the other thing I would consider too is without massively expanding the roadways, adding more vehicles to the roads is not really a limited contestant. You put buses on the road for our communities here, you put three or four buses on Mission Street, it's not gonna help the community at all. But everybody took the buses to the road. It's about getting to beyond our current business. The problem is, is that you've got to realize that for the person who is a blue collar worker, low in the mountains, they're thinking about every penny. They're not gonna be able to hire you, who were driving, who were driving, who were from here before. They're gonna communicate, mass transit. Certainly, you've got to get the communities that are built closer together, it is the way we should go. Housing, works, jobs, everything should be all closer together. It's gonna be Cremont. Yeah. You know, one of the things that is really fascinating as well and it's gonna like, what will our phones, our smart phones, allow us to do in the future? And there's some real kind of different financial models as well. Also, in Helsinki, there's an app called Wim and it's basically a subscription service. And so, you can do, you know, and it includes bike share, transit, kind of a taxi service and then a personal car. And so, you can just do it as you go. There's roughly a $50 a monthly subscription that gets you unlimited bike and transit and then a limited number of car, for a certain limit, either personal or shared taxis. And for roughly, I think it's the equivalent of 499 euros, which I think is just under $600 a month, you can get unlimited everything. The thing that's interesting, when you look at actually how much money we spend on our vehicles in the United States, Americans spend about $800 a month on their transportation. And so, it buys a lot of Uber trips. And it's totally depending on where it's at. We're talking about a train ticket, a low ticket. Or what kind of ticket are you talking about? A ticket that was much cheaper than a train ticket. Buses, systems can be cheaper, but in the long run, a train ticket is going to be cheaper for the distance. The distance you're going to travel, I think it's also cheaper. But the other thing to do is, slice up what you're talking about. Yeah, slice up what you're talking about. Trans, one of the things we're talking about too, is bicycling in these communities. Now, I understand in Portland, you have a thing that we don't have very often down here, it's called rain. And I'm just curious as to how many people actually do that bicycle commute on a daily basis in the rainy season? My husband does it every single day. I am totally a bare weather biker, and when it starts to get dark, that's when I get on the bus. That's totally when I switch. So it's kind of amazing how many people will, if they find a way, what works, and they're comfortable with it, but it really depends on the individual. I've noticed the longer with all the different options, and we definitely, and again, haven't priced, the people who drive, if you don't have a car, you're still paying for all that infrastructure. You're paying for your property taxes and all these other fees, and the amount of time that you're still stuck in congestion when you're on the bus. So we haven't priced it compared to the costs that it's actually incurring. And I think there's gonna be a real shift in change as these new modes become more and more prevalent. I have a lot of thoughts. Here in the county, a few years back, they did a feasibility study and they still haven't given up on it, of extending our Highway State Route 1 freeway by adding two more lanes. And then, that's gonna be something like, and traffic management features and timing on ramps and all that. It was gonna cost something like 640 million dollars. And I'm thinking, what could we do with 640 million dollars to build affordable housing where the jobs are? It could go a tremendous amount to build the housing close to where the jobs are and people wouldn't be commuting on that freeway. And study after study has shown, widening the freeway, it fills up again. In the state 405 in Los Angeles is close to that. They widen the freeway across the 1.2 billion dollars and five years of construction. And when they finished, the congestion was worse than when they started. They had lanes, they had bus lanes. Well, the question is, how do planners avoid screwing it up? Even the smartest people make bad predictions about the future. Like, in Eugene, they did a bus rapid transit system and one of the lines goes from Springfield to North Springfield and the ridership is so low they're cutting back on the service. People just want to ride it. And another place is not expanding. Yeah. So, my question is, is this about to plan for the future? How do they avoid screwing it up? It's so hard. It's really hard. And with these newer technologies, you find more and more cities that are doing pilot projects and trying to study them. So, looking at these scooters in Portland, it's a four. The companies had to apply for their remit. They had to tell them what their workforce plan was and their equity plan. They had to be able to comply with these different things and that it only runs for four months. They have to give the data to the city so the city can actually live. But what are the impacts of this? And how does it affect our community? And then they're gonna make changes to that when they're starting to learn from that and then update the regulations for the Uber and Left companies when they come in for their yearly permit. So, this has been a really fluid area. A lot of folks have said we don't have any idea how autonomous vehicles are gonna be used in the future. And so, let's do pilots and testing and do it on a small scale before we start to expand it even wider. And so, we're seeing more and more of those types of pilot projects. And then if it happens, it doesn't even have to be fancy technology. There's a lot of places that are doing road diets where they actually reduce the number of lanes. And it's usually, I call it planning with paint because it's things you can just do really inexpensively. You do the test for a couple of months or six months and then you actually measure what's the rate of congestion? Did it make it worse? Did it make it better? And it's not permanent. You always put it back to the way it was but if it's better then you can then make some of your, you can actually make the more substantial investments to make that improvement more perfect. So hopefully we're learning but it takes time, we don't replace roads every other day because it's really expensive. And so it takes time to redevelop a community. All right. This might be the last question. I'll just take a couple more. I get conflicting answers from your answer later. Everybody's asking me the answer. And I think we have to come up with our own answers. I'm not happy with a lot of your answers, particularly when we mentioned, but hey, I think the biggest problem that we have to follow is to try to figure out is again it gets down to the juggernaut of getting rid of congestion. And you're offering a lot of options. We have options. We have the bus. We, buses are not doing the job of getting people off the road, it's an option. All these bike things and all that stuff, scooters, whatever, everything that's coming out, they're options. But the problem is focusing on how we get rid of our major traffic congestion here on Highway 1 and 17. Your name answers, lady. I'll ask you, but I don't think you have the answer, but I think I do, and I like to discuss. Well, I don't know what to ask everyone if there's any other questions. Okay, I'm gonna let you answer that. Yeah, I think you have to change your lane use. I think you have to change your lane use. You can't get, like I said, you can't get to a different, you can't reduce congestion if you don't change how you develop your land. And that's your real problem. I disagree with you. I mean, I agree with you to a point, but I think there's an answer to get rid of congestion. Not just that. And we have, of course, the congestion, you have limited space on the road, you want to get rid of numbers of cars. How do you get rid of numbers of cars yet induced traffic? I stick with my original response. I think it's still the lane use, maybe the lane use, right? And then you've got to get the choice of location right with that. I'm gonna answer just a couple of more questions. So, can you speak a little bit to remote work in urbanism? Is it a meaningful influence and how cities are operated or is it not believed so much that they're occupied? Like, people that work from home? Yeah, and how it changed maybe over the last 10, 20 years. Is it a meaningful change or is it still not? You know, there's stuff like more and more people to do it, and I just don't know the most current numbers, so I couldn't really tell you the total impact on it, but yeah, so I just don't know how to really, I'd be shooting from the head. So, I prefer not to. Yeah. All right. Quick question, that would be easy to answer. Oregon is going to be an experiment. We're talking about the gasoline tax. As far as the more fuel economy and high rates, like you call that, that's not gonna be a good source of revenue. Oregon was an experiment with paper money. Yes. How did that go? Is it still doing it? Or is it going to expand for the remaining? Yeah, they are, it's Oregon is the pilot project, and I want to say it's been going on for about four years now, and it is still continuing. And I believe that they're planning on using it as part of, they've been studying in the Portland Metro area congestion pricing on some of our major freeways, and they definitely recognize that they need to do something about congestion in the Portland Metro area, and I believe that they're thinking about how do they incorporate that, especially with the different kinds of emerging technology. I think more and more folks are going to be thinking about that vehicle, like a vehicle-mile traveled tax. But the people signed up for it is adoption. Oh yeah, it's still voluntary because it's still just a pilot project. So, and I forget kind of where they are in thinking about a larger rollout, but I would say it's still very much alive, and they're kind of in the middle of the next round of it. I suppose they'll be doing some testing and continue to test different things for a while. I think it's only going to take a little while if some of the vehicles come sooner, I think that we'll start to see a lot of different, we'll see the interest really increase in that. And I think it was almost pretty safe. Yeah, by the way, for being here, I appreciate the information. I appreciate the different ideas you presented. But my question is, is many of these options that you've given us is still running around the same streets, still in the same congestions, bus lanes, same thing, buses that are still in traffic, so we have to go ahead and road and I will be relaxing on the last slide. Everybody's so dead spot. Doesn't make sense as I'm representing to have multiple tools in our toolbox. And therefore, a dedicated rail line is also very advantageous if it goes through the communities and can serve very good. CTA, the dedicated rail line is not putting more cars on the road, it's not creating more congestion and can be in this kind of plot, can be extremely important for the public transportation. Yeah, you definitely see that in Europe and in Asian countries. And it's been harder, I would say, in the US just because our communities are still spread out, the country's really big. We haven't really made it easy with our land use patterns. But isn't that all you think you're planning? Yeah, it really is. It really is. There's cars and everything else is all. Yeah, if I was in charge, it's really different. But I'm not in charge, lots of people are. And getting all those people and the stars to align is, I mean, we see the remnants of the sausage-making of policy on a pretty regular basis, and we all have to look at it, unfortunately. Yeah, I don't attend conferences sometimes. In the back, that's you. So you're speaking of the Regional Transportation Commission I believe tomorrow? The meeting was canceled, so I'm not going to be able to, but I'm maybe speaking to their staff. Oh, okay. Just a request, that it seems to me, you know, someone mentioned that there is still a latency in plans of widening Highway 1, $650 million, probably closer to a billion dollars, you know. In the line of advent of automated vehicles, it seems to me there's an argument that, hey, you might just want to hold off on that investment. They want to do the first down payment on a $100 million project very soon because they have the money for that. But if you could mention induced travel when you're talking to staff, you know, that'd be my request. I'd be happy to do that. Yeah, I don't know how much of the bills I'll have, but I'm sorry. Thank you. You're welcome. With that, one more question if you'd want, but that's, okay. You know, Highway 17, and you know what I like about land use, yeah, land use has not been doing its job, that's why we have congestion. Right. So we want to talk about. I agree with you on that. Talking about existing, getting rid of existing congestion, throw this out, and it lies with partially what we've been saying. Highway 17, unfortunately, we have too many cars and we want to take rid of the cars so that we can use the road to travel. And unfortunately, that's the conundrum that we have, the problem, the gender gap. And that's to take rid of a number of cars yet to travel. How do you even do that? Except get rid of some cars, yet travel, you're gonna travel by mass transit, but mass transit is gonna move because it's congestive. So you have two lanes, one lane dedicated to car pulling and mass transit. I think, I'm sorry, but I think that's the only solution that we have to traffic congestion. We cannot drive, like blue cars, doesn't make workers who are all stuck in it. But I would suggest that commerce is really important with the exception on car pulling for to allow us commercial license vehicles. That's it, car pulling, mass transit. We have that in both of those proposals before the County Transportation Commission at different times, they discuss it, but they turn it down. And these are plans and points, you know, so it's government. Yeah. Oh, I know one of these things, if you can talk to an economist and they say, again, we're not pricing it right. And so if we actually price for the impacts that it's having, then you just keep on increasing the price. There's actually a place back east that has variable pricing, and even San Francisco has the variable pricing for parking, to really try to shift the behavior. And it shows back east, there's a toll road and the toll ends up going to like 40 bucks to go across that place, because it really reflects that's how high you have to get it to get people to change their behavior. Not if you make it so that there's another alternative and you invest that money in something else. It takes a lot of political wealth, I'm not saying it's easy. Look, I'm trying to say it's still inequitable because the guy that's got the bucks is not paying money. And you're sloughing it off to other people to take mass transit. This plan is equitable. Everybody plays the game equitably, meaning if carpooling, mass transit. I think it's a plan. There's a lot of, and this is where I would again, urge you to look at Joe Fortwright's work at City Observatory, because one of the things he does is he actually looks at, you know, in some ways we have congestion pricing already, especially for those places where if you're driving to park and parking is incredibly expensive, then low-income people are not driving. They're not driving together because they can't pay for the parking at the end of the ride. And so the system we have right now is incredibly inequitable because we're making them pay, making them drive farther away, making it more difficult for them to spend time with their family. They're more likely to get an accident because they're putting more, you know, real time on the roads. Like it's such an inequitable system right now that actually if we priced so that we could,