 Yeah, you you are for sure the most handsome of us. We're not even it's we're not all the cameras on max I'm gonna clip over to us. We're just gonna run max's voice or face the No, I'm gonna have some fun with I'm gonna have some fun with this opening here I bet your audience is probably predominantly male though First off we're handsome as hell I can't explain it We are we're 50 I mean Justin and I bring the average up a tattoo half of a half of our audience now needs us biological male Do a half just identifies as male Way to offend 50% of our audience on a survey I love that it's half female though that I mean that that's a really good sign It shows that you guys are you know we're in touch with exhibiting traits that some would describe as feminine But which I think you know are you know perhaps encompass like Warms and empathy and things like that understanding, you know health The one thing I love about the help the topic of health of the category of health is it it's important to everybody So I can talk to anybody about it and if I do a good job communicating it male female You know Republican Democrat Christian atheist. They're interested in well improving their health The truth is I would say that we're more experts on training the human body than we are the male body Oh, I mean a female body. Yeah, did I would I say male human female? Male body Female body most clients were female. Yeah, you at least 65 to 75% of your clients are female interesting. Yeah men are way less likely to hire a personal trainer They're less likely to ask for help. Yeah, so, you know exactly. They got it. You know me. Yeah, I got it Bro, yeah, so when you think about all the decades of training all of us have under our belt I mean, we've for sure helped way more women than we have men So I think that's probably why we've learned to communicate Max. Did you hear about the organic farmer? who he got busted because he was and I believe his crops Made up about 10% of the organic market and they got found out that they weren't organic Wow got sentenced to 10 years in jail and committed suicide. Oh my god Yeah, actually, do you guys you didn't hear about this guy? I did not hear no But that he made out his crops made up 10% of the organic like a massive like a big percentage of maybe Doug can look it up when it was 10% I remember when you read. Yeah, you hear about that. Well, I mean, I don't wish suicide on anybody But what a fraud yeah, that's not crazy terrible You said you've been getting in arguments with people over organic stuff not argument and not people I mean that makes it sound like, you know bigger than it is but yeah I've gotten into tiffs on Instagram, you know when I when I yeah, we love tiffs Because you know, I like to Recommend to people that they buy organic when it's certain crops when we're talking about certain crops And I don't you know, I don't think organic is as important when talking about animal based products and things like that But you know if you're gonna eat the skin or the peel I make the recommendation to go organic I like supporting organic farming. I think it's better for the soil, but then you know some of these like evidence Nazis come out of the woodwork and You know, they'll cite data showing that it's really unclear whether or not there are any health benefits to Organic food and that it is also unclear as to whether or not organic is better for the environment If you look at certain certain metrics, you know organic farming takes more land It's less volume centric in terms of what the amount of food that's produced and it's also unclear in terms of Whether or not there's a nutritional benefit in terms of vitamins or minerals So you'll see higher levels of certain vitamins like vitamin C. I believe in organic, but you'll see I'm less in in conventional produce, but then there's like, you know, there are other vitamins and minerals that are higher in conventional that are lower in organic So the data is not fully there you do there are pesticides that are approved for use in organic They're not synthetic. However, you know, since you'll get the synthetic Pesticides in conventional which everybody knows But I'm just like less likely to give the benefit of the doubt to these huge, you know the the food industrial complex, you know We have yet to do long-term population studies, you know looking at Herbicides like glyphosate in people over the long term. It's not as studied in children It's not as studied in pregnant women. We don't have any generational studies. We don't have any generation generational studies So yeah, so I'm I'm just more You know, I'm quicker to embrace organic and in terms of the health benefits They do tend to have higher levels of certain compounds like polyphenols and things like that which You know, it would be assumed that they're gonna that those compounds are gonna be good for human health Now the data that I like to talk about when when debating organic versus non-organic studies do show That people who consume organic foods have lower measurable levels of Pesticides in their system. Yeah. Now the argument can be made. Does that matter? It's not we don't know if it's good or bad is a benign. Okay, but here's the thing It's there. It's there and they've done studies where they've taken people families and move them off of Conventional, you know produce and vegetables move them to organic and then you can see the amount of pesticides found in their system Decline over time. So that to me says, okay Well, I don't know. I'd rather like you err on the side of natural than on the side of Synthetic and you're right that there aren't a real long-term studies, especially not generational ones like glyphosates have an interesting effect on bacteria and Like antibiotics low-dose antibiotic use you start to see the effects like two or three generations later with less and less diverse microbiota and potential issues. So You know, okay, who knows that's there. That's their defense. We don't know the evidence doesn't really show anything Okay, then that means I'm gonna err on the side of safety. Yeah, a hundred percent I mean, I'm just not willing to give these synthetic compounds the benefit of the doubt another argument that would be See, I like to present both sides of the of the of the issue because I think it is complex, right? You know in those studies where they'll switch kids or adults to organic diets and they see this this reduction pesticides in their urine The question then becomes like what pesticides are they testing for are they testing for the pesticides that are approved for use in organic agriculture, maybe not But you know one of the issues with compounds like glyphosate is that they are, you know suspected endocrine disruptors and Endocrine disruptors one of the things that makes the most treacherous and I think we talked about this the last time that I was here Is that they don't necessarily follow the typical linear dose makes the poison paradigm where? You know, you might have a very high dose of an endocrine disruptor that has overt toxicity But then you might see them having an effect at a low dose, you know That's much different than the dose that I see I see and so that kind of allows these compounds to subvert Political scrutiny Scientific scrutiny and when you look at the amount of money basically that's that goes into them and the fact that again as you mentioned We didn't we don't have these generational studies You got it. I mean at a certain point you like throw up your hands and you're like what am I supposed to do? Well, I like to opt when I can for you know When it's produce where I'm eating the whole thing organic because I know that that you know the the the pesticides that they're using they they only use them when they absolutely have to and Organic farmers that I know, you know, they they're very dedicated to regenerative agriculture and and the pesticides come from natural sources and you know, some might some might say well, you know, there's no Proof that natural pesticides are any are any safer than organic pesticides well some of some of the pesticides they use are actually plant-derived and some of the Healthiest compounds in plants are actually the pesticides that they create for themselves to ward off predators and things like that. So So, yeah, so I mean that's just like You got to make a decision at the end of the day And so when it comes to the foods where the produce where I'm eating the skin or the peel That's when I that's when I buy you back to the endocrine Disruptors now that for for the audience who might not know that those are compounds that can affect or influence the Hormone system in the body. What about really low dose long? Duration exposure to endocrine disruptors you may notice very subtle effects, right? Like a little bit of feminization or More fat storage in places that you might not normally store body fat or going through puberty earlier And how do you test for that? Like how do I how do I test and show that? Okay? The average child is going through puberty now at a younger age, which is actually true That's actually happening some of that's related to fat storage, but we don't know men's testosterone levels, right? Like I don't know if I test somebody that their testosterone level is you know, 15% lower than it could have been I don't know that but we do know that testosterone levels have been declining across the board now for the last few decades It's one of those things. It's kind of difficult to To study in the traditional sense of you know, six months and see what happens because we're consuming these things for Decades and decades and decades And we do know that they do a fact or interact with that's the fact That's why they're called endocrine disruptors. They we know for a fact that they interact with the hormone system We just don't know we can't say with certainty how much or how bad with some of these things. Yeah, am I right? Yeah, absolutely. I mean the dose that we're getting That has been deemed safe by our most first of all the the It was just recently revealed and I can't cite the exact study But that you know, we have way we likely have way higher levels of these compounds in us at any given time then We had previously thought just because of updates to the testing methods and things like that And even at the dose at which we're regularly exposed to these compounds they they are likely having an effect I mean there was a study that I posted on Twitter just today where They found that in normal healthy people they gave people a dose of BPA, which is not You know, it wasn't like a mega dose. They couldn't they wouldn't be able to do that for ethical reasons So they gave them a dose at which you know a dose that the FDA says that if you're on a daily basis exposed to this This amount of BPA over the course of your lifetime, you're safe Well, what they found was when they gave that dose of BPA along with an oral glucose tolerance test They had an altered insulin response and so that's an effect. That was in fact. Yeah We know that these compounds are powerful what are called Xeno estrogens. They act like estrogen in the body There are certain cancers, you know, like breast cancer for one that is since certain types of breast cancer Certain breast tumors are sensitive to estrogen But estrogen has an effect on glucose metabolism I mean, you know, if you've got too little estrogen you develop insulin resistance if you have too much estrogen you develop insulin resistance So it's a it's just not a smart move to try to be tinkering with this system of hormones in the body Which are so finely tuned and so sensitive, you know And then we've just got these chemicals that were exposed to on a daily basis And if it was just like one compound here or there, I don't think that, you know Maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal, but we're just we're inundated Our exposures are just unprecedented like in evolutionary, you know on the human time scale Whether if it's if it's not BPA, it's phthalates if it's not phthalates It's PFAS compounds and you know and that are used to basically create like waxy the waxy linings of papers that we You know wrap our burgers or burritos with or or like the receipts Yeah, or receipts which are coded in BPA. There was a they found in 2014 that If you use a hand sanitizer Hand sanitizer basically like opens up the pores in your skin thus like dramatically making more permeable your skin to environmental toxins If you use hand sanitizer before touching one of these store receipts, which is very common like millions of people do this Then you're basically by at least an order of magnitude increasing your exposure to BPA How interesting that is to me because just in the last I want to say year maybe two years tops It's like almost standard at every grocery store as soon as you wike in they have those alcohol chemical wipes and sanitizer And that's kind of like and we never had that before in Katrina's routine. She gets soon She gets a cart she walks over the hand wipe sanitizes wipes hands and then goes in there So now hearing that I would like you more susceptible. Oh my god, dude. No fucking death trap That's great. So with your first book very popular You've been on lots of mainstream TV shows. I've seen you on The doctors and dr. Oz and you're very popular. You've got this other book that's coming out now Which you know, we've looked at and it's I think it's phenomenal I think it's gonna do actually better than your first book Are you seeing more because you talked earlier about Getting a little bit of pushback from different segments of the health space whether it's the fitness space You know because of the the macro zealots coming after you or whatever. Are you seeing more of that? Are you getting more of that like you're now somebody people are gonna fight or go after? Yeah, the thing is there's like all these different factions in our space, right? Oh, yeah, you've got the vegan community I mean, I've fucking duked it out. Can I curse? I've duked it out with them And I have nothing against like vegans in general, you know, we've discussed this but they have I mean one the other day called me a little bit in quotes called me a literal cancer Yeah, so I mean they're just angry and they come at you and I'm pretty I've got pretty thick skin I grew up in New York City, right, but I'm still human and so when things like when when people come at me, it's a You know, I feel compelled to respond Why'd they call you a cancer? Because I posted a I posted it somebody on Instagram. You like the nicest guy Any sense he's like the nicest man in the world. Um trying to help people. I'm trying to help people. Yeah so somebody posted a like it was a photo of their bookshelf like a stack of books on a coffee table and The caption was these books have changed my life I recommend everybody read these books and you go through the books and it's like a who's who a vegan Vegan proselytus doctors and whatever it was like forks over knives. It was the Alzheimer's solution It was like the China study was like all these books And so I took a screen grab because I thought it was this is what's wrong with like the world is that we we it's like We'd all we do is we seek out our own confirmation biases, right? And so I took a screen grab and I put it on my stories and I was like man if this isn't like a literary echo chamber I don't know what is You're not gonna see anything good about meat or any animal product What's whoever written about in any of these books thousands of pages of of whatever writing represented there and all just with the same message And I was like that is so messed up And then the tiki torches came out and the tiki torches. Yeah, well, I mean actually not it was just that one person It was just that one person who replied and said you're a little literal cancer You don't have the clinical experience to know the truth and yada yada yada And so and I think I even shared that on my Instagram because I was like look guys like do we do we have to be like this? Yeah, you know, yeah I think one of the one of the best possible things you can do in it with any Subject where you have an opinion that's formed is to seek out someone who has the opposing opinion who's intelligent and Compelling and see if they can change your mind Honestly be open to seeing if they can change your mind oftentimes you'll come out with new information They might not change your mind, but if they did that means of previous opinion you had was wrong anyway Yeah, I don't know why more people don't do that. Well, that's exactly I mean not to not to like pat myself in the back But that's what I that's what I try to do like the we started the conversation about the organic And I was giving all the disclaimers about because I got into an actual it got me to think differently about just like you know This the the sweeping generalization that organic is better. Well if we're talking about like beef It doesn't necessarily make as big of a difference, you know for that You really just want to look for grass-fed, but at the end of the day I think you've got to make decisions and you know and so I'll I'll offer that as a disclaimer But too few people are willing to do that to challenge I would say the the vegan segment of the vegan faction is probably the one of the more aggressive, but that's because Behind their their opinion and belief and how they eat It's not just this way of eating makes me feel but like you talked to Keto zealots and it's like this you know made me feel better and it transformed my life and they're very passionate with vegans They some of many of them firmly believe saving lives Yeah, that they're saving lives and now they're saving the planet according to them Right, so those those two of them is what causes I think than to be that way Yeah, so I would assume that that's probably where you're getting a lot most of your Opposition yeah, there is like a significant overlap between veganism and mental illness too And I'm not just saying that and the direction of causality is it's probably omni You know, it's probably multi-directional because the vegan the vegan diet I think probably attracts in many ways people who have mental health issues and Then you go on this diet that is not providing And and then they go on this diet that's like, you know, it's harder to get be 12 It's hard to get all these like nutrients that we know are very good for the brain I would say exacerbates those and I would say any any extreme belief Probably is going to attract more of that segment of the population with a little bit of you know This may be mental issues a mental health problem health problems, but in particular with veganism The way that I've talked about it with some people is that in some cases it may be misplaced empathy and what I mean by that is Because I don't doubt the empathy of someone who says I don't want to kill animals I think that they're very genuine in what they're saying, but I think sometimes it's misplaced because they'll They'll disregard the empathy for their own selves and I've seen this with clients I've had clients who are so empathetic towards animals that they will Sacrifice their own physical health like glaring at them whether we're doctors are looking at them And I've worked with them and their doctors and they're like if you don't eat You're not gonna menstruate again if you don't have meat if you don't take these nutrients Your hair is gonna continue to fall out and this is not everybody but for some people this has happened I've seen this and they will they will not empathize themselves They will not say any take care of myself They only empathize with animals and so I think that's a there's a little bit of something going on there with that misplaced Well, we also did we just did an episode that I think just went up the other day And we we looked up the top 10 Nutrient deficiencies and the common theme about all 10 of them is like the number one source of getting those nutrient Nutrient deficiencies solve was through meat. Yeah, you know, it's like and you have to really Try to find a plant source of that's just difficult like unless you're really doing your home work to supplement Yeah, it's really really tough. That's all I think that's all it is You can do it now day and modern markets allow you the ability to you could do it But you have to do your homework and my experience because of the documentaries like what the health and the Changers in game changers. You've got people like my niece who's you know 17 and you know it motivates her to and then her way of going vegan is just cutting out meats, you know I'm just now eating salads and more and it's like there's no she's not going and doing her research on oh now that I've completely Eliminated this nutrient-dense food. What am I potentially lacking in like that's not and I'm not talking to the the hard core Vegan who's doing it to save animal lives and has done all their research and falls and is healthy awesome Good for you like keep doing it. I'm more concerned about the masses and that the this general Message that's coming from these documentaries that are getting the average person who's not doing any homework Yeah, whatsoever switching over because they think they're saving the earth yet They're eating avocados in Minnesota that was shipped from fucking Mexico How do you feel about the the rising popularity of the carnivore diet now is like the counter to that Max? Yeah, I mean I think that they you know people there's no doubt that people are at least anecdotally seeing reprieve from pretty serious Autoimmune conditions on it, but I'm not I don't think that's optimal either for most people. I think you know I think that you get It's like, you know, there's the very reasonable of you Max Like I was looking for a shocking answer. No, I mean, that's why yeah I think it's I think it's you get all these like Xenohormetic compounds in plants like the polyphenols that I was talking about Yeah, that you know, I think are In many ways like the heavy hitters in terms of the health benefit that we see from plants I mean the benefits that we get from plants are not just in the vitamins and minerals the handful of vitamins and minerals That we know that we need from plants they're in the you know in the metabolites that we get from our microbiota when they ferment the fiber that we consume when we're eating plant matter where Get you know the polyphenols that are also metabolized by the microbiota and that some of them enter circulation and and are good for us the Plant pigments that we know are good for the brain. I like I love to talk about compounds like lutein and zeaxanthin which are The yellows and oranges that you'll see in the produce section that are really important for preventing age-related macular degeneration But they've also recently been shown in in clinical trials to boost brain processing speed Yeah, and your average adult consumes like I think two milligrams of combined lutein and zeaxanthin a day if you can if you consume six That significantly helps protect your eyes as you age and 12 seems to you know Even in young people provide a visual processing speed boost. So that's why I'm always like eat a big salad every day What you're what you'll find with the extreme Diets is rather than being for example rather than vegans being pro-plant. It's anti Meat and rather than carnivores being pro-meat. They're just anti plant And so that's where I start to I think you start to see the problem because you're missing out on some potential Incredible benefits, but there are those outliers that seem to do better avoiding Whole swaths of you know categories of food or whatever Yeah, it's just it's just like the irony that you've got like these these super loud and aggressive factions But you know the the the animal haters like the vegans can't prove with any good evidence that Abstaining from animal products is gonna be any better for your health and the carnivores can't prove You know with the available evidence that abstaining from plants is gonna be any better for your health So Democrats and Republicans now let's have them wrestle. So yeah now Was this the the main motivation behind the first chapter that don't fork around was this topic? Like is this how you led down this pathway because I know you talk about protein in there also Yeah, so the first so in genius foods was sort of like a you know It was a nutritional care manual for the brain But in in the genius life the nutritional guidelines are a little bit different because what I'm trying to do with my readers is get them is to help shift their bodies to a you know in terms of their body composition to a more positive state and to optimize metabolic health and to basically You know get people to understand that their hunger mechanisms are not always don't always fall within their control we like to think that we have the reins of You know of our hunger, but in the modern food environment I think that our hunger is often hijacked by ultra processed foods and by you know The the pervasive advice that for whatever reason protein is bad for us, which you know, it's not so in this book I think I put an emphasis on Just recognizing the value of dietary protein and I think you know for like that just that simple statement right there Like listeners of your podcast are probably well aware of the value of protein people in the fitness world are well aware But your average person doesn't realize that protein is the most satiating macronutrient If you make no change to your diet other than just try to eat more protein like prioritized protein Most people I think are gonna see like a spontaneous weight loss. It's one of the first Okay, so one of the things I always like to do with clients no matter what your goal is Is instead of taking things away or saying you can't have is to insert things that I know they're lacking in the Number one macro nutrient that the general pop was lacking in when I would assess diets was protein Yeah, it's just I mean if you're over a hundred and thirty five pounds Which most Americans are if you're over a hundred and thirty five pounds the amount of chicken breast that you would need to consume In a day is just not normal. Yeah, we're eating four or five chicken breast in a single day So and that's what it takes to add up to that much protein So I would see people eating 30 to 50 grams of protein a day Which sure you can live off of that and you're okay, but it's not the most optimal For performance building muscle and then also at the satiating benefits that you get so you don't end up craving all the other It can be overstated what you just said max because the biggest problem with modern Nutrition is we can look at sugars and carbs and fats and this but ultimately the biggest problem is we eat too much and So seeking things out that make you not want to eat as much is a very very good basic first step I would say and and it makes sense if you think about it evolutionarily speaking Why would protein be so satiating? Why are fats also satiating not as much as proteins but a little bit but more than carbs and why are carbs? Typically the least satiating probably because proteins and fats are essential and if you eat lots of carbs Your body's hunger mechanisms are going to continue to kick up to try to motivate you to eat those essential Amino acids that you can only find from eating you know outside of yourself You have to eat protein so it makes perfect sense But yeah as a trainer when I'd have someone bump their protein I would watch their calories naturally drop just by prioritizing that yeah Well, what are some other tips and things you talked about in that in that chapter? I talk about the value of salt and sodium One of the topics that I cover in the book across all of the chapters is the value of maintaining a healthy blood pressure Which all the research seems to be pointing to is crucial for having a brain that not only performs well But ages well which as you guys know I mean, you know maintaining brain health as we age or you know even optimizing brain health is something That's is I'm super passionate about and so this whole idea that salt is somehow this cardiovascular demon I like to remind people that sodium is a nutrient and There's actually a fairly large meta analysis that was recently published. I believe it was either 2019 Or 2018 that found that actually people who are on the most salt restricted diets have the highest risk of Death and the lowest rates seems to be when people consume about three to five Grams of sodium per day, which is about which is at least double what the American Heart Association recommends So the American Heart Association Recommends we can some about one and a half grams no more of sodium per day But you know the most people consume salt in the in by way of ultra processed foods You know or canned foods or preserved foods, which is loaded with sodium So it's not that you know your average American needs to eat more salt I mean your average Americans already eating, you know, lots and lots of salt, but because they're consuming 60% of their calories from ultra processed foods. So once you cut those foods out of your diet I think it's crucially important to make sure that you're getting adequate salt Everybody that's ever done like a or initiated a low carb diet knows that they experience that low carb flu Occasionally and I think that can be mitigated by adding more sodium into the diet because the minute your insulin levels drop your kidneys spill sodium So this is something that when you're eating an optimized You know an air quotes diet that's built primarily on whole foods Which I know that you guys advocate advocate for salt is something that becomes Crucially important eating eating more salt not only that but salt makes our food Palletable is there a hierarchy of quality in terms of like salts you'd recommend. Yeah I mean what they're showing now is increasingly around the world sea salts are contaminated with microplastics and so we already You know, I mean we're exposed to plastic compounds on a daily basis I when I'm traveling I mean, you know, I'm drinking out of a water bottle right now that is made of plastic I you know, we can't we can't always avoid it But you know in terms of the salt that we use I think you know if you can avoid sea salt in your home That's probably a good thing I'm not really a fan of these like iodized ultra processed salts They usually use like anti-caking agents some of them have like these aluminum, you know based ingredients So I yeah, I'll go for like a Himalayan like a pink salt or like a more mineral rich salt that I find like at my supermarket Yeah, cuz the sea salts they collect it from the ocean dry it out But because there's plastics and pollutants in the ocean they end up in the salt. Yeah, that's what's happening And then the Himalayan ones they're pulling them out of ancient mines, you know before we ever produced any plastic So these are pure. Yeah, so like you know an example of a company, you know real salt They you know they Redmond real salt they they their salt comes from an underground mine in Utah Which is obviously going to be pristine and untouched by pollution the other thing about that meta analysis They found that people at a very high sodium consumption They did have an increased risk of heart disease, but only when they didn't consume adequate potassium So potassium the balance the balance. Yeah, it's super important. Very interesting Yeah, so when you don't eat it and I noticed this myself when my my processed food consumption goes down My sodium drops way down naturally and I just add salt to my food So that's really the advice is hey when you're not eating lots of heavily processed food Make sure you add quality salt to the foods that you do the whole foods that you do eat Yeah, or just don't be afraid of it and salt to taste I mean, I think you know a lot of people You know grow up not enjoying eating vegetables because they're just not seasoned properly So salt is a very important. I think culinary device to get us to eat more vegetables for one And then you know certain certain things that people do cause them to lose more salt I mentioned the low carb diet certain medications. I believe SSRIs actually can cause us can act like a diuretic can cause us to excrete sodium Which you know a non-trivial portion of the population are on caffeine vigorous exercise Sweating you lose primarily salt sodium in your sweat. So Making sure that you're you know keeping your electrolytes your electrolyte intake up I think is important and then the other thing of the butt Yeah, the other aspect of the chapter that I talk about Which I know that you guys talk about all the time and we're pretty aligned is just basically letting people know what ultra process Do foods do to your hunger in the first book genius foods? I kind of talked to I introduced this concept of hyperpollutability and how these foods short circuit your your brains like reward centers But now we actually have like really good data from the National Institutes of Health There was that great study that was published by Obesity research researcher Kevin Hall who found that an ultra-processed food-based diet actually causes us to over consume about 500 Additional calories a day. Those are those a crossover study They even switch the groups and they saw when one group was eating less because they weren't eating the heavily processed foods And then they switched over to the process. They also consume 500 more calories. It was consistent across the board Yeah, you shared that study like what a few months ago. Yeah, I was crazy. It's insane. I mean we seen this as trainers You know you talk in your your second chapter you get in a circadian rhythm And I wanted to ask you how important do you think that is in in the weight loss journey? I think it's super important I mean In the in the hierarchy of you know, what you eat versus when you eat I think what you eat is probably still the most important factor, but I do think that what that that when you eat Matters in accordance with what we're learning from animal studies and from human trials in terms of You know our bodies own natural inclinations to digest and metabolize food I mean we know that our metabolites our metabolisms are ripping and roaring during the day where diurnal creatures were meant to consume food During the day peristalsis is at its fastest During the day and we know that we're at our most insulin sensitive in the in the daytime So I mean that right there would tip you off to the the possibility that That our metabolisms are influenced by these these rhythms these circadian rhythms So I talk about the value of getting good light in through your eyes first thing in the morning I think that's really important. That's one of the chief time-setters that your brain and body uses to know what time of day it is and and that Hormonally can have an effect on things like insulin sensitivity and the like like light can actually affect How insulin sensitive you are and we we know this because light one of the things that light does is it suppresses? The production of melatonin and melatonin actually makes you less insulin sensitive So when melatonin later on in the day, it's sort of the sleep hormone. It starts to rise it gets released by the pineal gland Later on in the day you actually become less Insulin sensitive so to make sure that your that your metabolism is sort of primed to be able to utilize and partition fuels You know at its most optimal Getting about a half an hour of 1,000 lux of light first thing in the morning or you know before noon I think is a really important You know sort of lifestyle thing that you could do So you think the old the old tip of don't eat past six o'clock is actually pretty good advice then I think it's really good advice now It's not that food is necessarily like I see these posts on Instagram all the time And I also see I've seen literally fitness influencers say that The time that you eat has no bearing whatsoever on your weight, and that's that's false So I mean a foo a bagel let's just take a bagel, you know if it has a hundred calories at 759 p.m. It's not gonna have you know magically 150 calories at 8 p.m. That's just not how it works But they do research in humans has shown that circadian disruption which can easily be achieved by eating a very late Night meal if you don't regularly eat late at night can actually alter the hormones that Effect the calories outside of the calories and calories out equation So eating late at night can disrupt leptin, which is you know sort of the master throttle It's the cascading effect that happens from this and this is what's tough about studies is we we take something in a Small window, and we just measure at eight o'clock. It still is 700 calories. It's in so therefore Law of thermodynamics applies it doesn't matter But the reality is we're not taking an account the cascading effect that happens the body's burning less calories like you said Yeah, the body's burning less calories when you eat it late versus when you eat in the dates Which might be a small effect. Yeah, do that over a long period of time or consistently all the time right if you're somebody Who's a midnight snacker all the time and that's got a major compounding effect a thousand percent So I'm not refuting calories and calories out But I think too often we focus on the calories inside of the equation when calories out hello That's like an important part of the story as well and so by you know by eating late at night and you know this the suggestion in the literature that we could Maybe reduce levels of leptin. I mean that's gonna have an effect on your metabolic burn And it also can affect growing which is another hormone that controls our hunger and satiety. So The next day I mean eating late at night could potentially make you more hungry and and less prone to making good food choice there has to be a physiological difference too because Very few if anybody goes to bed at 6 p.m. At night it's 6 p.m If you ate your last meal there You're still up and walking and moving around for two three hours potentially if you eat at 11 o'clock at night There's a good chance you're doing that sitting on your couch or laying in your bed And there's got to be something to do there's got to be some benefits to just from being upright and gravity and moving around That helps the digestive process too So I think there's that side of the out cycle too when we talk about the calories that you're in taking well It all makes sense again from an evolutionary standpoint you probably wouldn't be cooking a Wonderful meal in the middle of the night when all the lions are walking around and humans are basically blind You probably ate it during the day and at night you shut everything down and let's go in the cave and hide Yeah term for this right you had light was medicine and then what was the other part as far as like later in the day Yeah Detriment well the idea that light you know in in a certain context can actually act like a carcinogen And this is a powerful idea and actually this the whole the idea of light as a carcinogen. It's um, I was interviewing this brilliant woman Ellen Vora MD who's this who's a holistic psychiatrist on my pot on my podcast And I was familiar with the science, but she put it like that and I was like whoa That's like that's some way to think about like artificial light later on in the evening and the reason why? Why this could actually be the case is that? Melatonin which I mentioned, you know, it is a sleep hormone it helps us wind down But it's not just a sleep hormone. So melatonin actually is one of the most potent antioxidants in the body. It's an epigenetic It's involved in gene expression It also is a gatekeeper on the process known as autophagy Which you know is important for longevity and it's when cells clean house, you know old dysfunctional cells clean house and and And so by basically not allowing your melatonin to be expressed the way that it wants to be in the later evening hours You basically are are allowing for this Mill you in the body that could actually be pro-carcinogenic, you know without without melatonin melatonin is an important It's one of the hormones that's responsible for the reparative and restorative aspects of sleep This is why I swing schedules are carcinogenic people who work at night and go to sleep in the day They have a higher risk of cancer. This is a fact. Yes 100% so So yeah, so I mean that's like that's a hypothesis that I think warrants further testing for sure But mechanistically, you know in so far as bright light that our ancestors that you know that with that We've only really had to endure for the past hundred or so years or a couple, you know a couple hundred years You know something that our ancestors did not did not know or have access to Maybe one, you know one possible route of cancer You know etiology for some people now, what do you recommend? Do you recommend that people dim their lights at night? Turn things down where blue blockers like what are the recommendations that you have just be really? You know deliberate about the light that you allow to enter your eyes I mean, I think you know if it's if we're talking about eye level lamps that have warm bulbs What I did was I converted all of the bulbs in my apartment to very warm It was just a very warm hue mood lighting mood lighting essentially. Yeah, well It's you know to me so I live in an apartment complex in LA and when I walk through the complex I can sometimes kind of like see through my periphery inside other people's apartments, and I'm not I'm not actually looking but No, no, but You know, I'm actually surprised by how many people allow their apartments to be lit by like what are essentially fluorescent lights Oh, super bright. Yeah, super bright and they're like this like blue hue and And super bright. I mean in the kitchen or various parts of the home And so the first thing that I did when I moved into my apartment was I got rid of all the super bright Bulbs and I made them more aesthetically pleasing. I put in these warm bulbs and and Yeah, I try not to you know Like too late at night go to drug stores or supermarkets because the soup the lighting in a drug store Supermarket can easily reach a thousand lux which tells your brain that it's daytime even even when it's not And I love blue blocker glasses I think they're one of the very few like sort of products in the health and wellness space that are actually worth their money My I watch a lot of like TV like at night, you know binge watch shows at my brother's house My brother he's got this like 80-something inch TV. It's like massive So if I'm watching a show and it's like a daytime shot and it like flashes to the sky or whatever the amount of light Eminating from that TV. Yeah, I was just messing up I would think that TVs and computers are up there and your phone too like when you're staying how many people lay in bed and are like Instagram scrolling and texting like dark in your room within this bright screen on your eyes. It cannot be good Yeah, it's not I there's actually an app and I haven't tested it with a with a with a more professional device, but there's an app called lux and It's it's a cool app to install on your phone because it gives you You can use the front camera or the rear camera and it gives you a sense of the the amount of light intensity in your ambient environment. Oh, wow. So you can measure it. You can measure it You can measure it. There's all kinds of like cool testing devices for your iPhone I have something that measures the amount of decibels in the ambient environment because I'm very cautious about like, you know I want to ever lose my hearing because I'm such a music junkie So I have like an app that does that I can measure like elevation and things like that But the Lux I think comes in really useful and what you'll notice when you have it is that even on an overcast day The light is sufficient. So for people that live in northern, you know Climates that are like, well, I can't get adequate, you know, sundering the day because you know, it's like overcast and whatever It's winter even on an overcast day I mean the amount of light that you get is sufficient to anchor your body circadian rhythm We use a Himalayan salt lamps So we put these little like night lights throughout the house and then we turn the lights off when the sun goes down And that's what we use and it's a very warm glow and my sleep has been so much better And I notice it tremendous difference with my kids My kids wind down and they go to bed at a decent time versus when we're somewhere else and the lights are on real bright Above our heads and I could everybody sleep gets this I just make a habit of every as soon as the sun goes down I have three pairs of my glasses blue blockers throughout every level of my house That's so it doesn't I don't have an excuse filming my bedroom There's a pair from down in the living room with kitchen area like there's a pair I just throw them on as soon as the sun goes down and when I don't I can notice a Significant difference and how long it takes me to fall asleep. That's the biggest thing that I noticed like that I can measure it's like one of those hard things like people try it out They're like, I don't know am I getting better sleep or not? I can tell how long it takes me to fall asleep Which you know, you add that up That's if I normally toss around for 45 minutes an hour to probably fall asleep By just putting those on if I knock out within the first 15 to 20 minutes. I mean add that up over That's hours a week. Yeah, that's a ton. You also talk about I think that the name of the chapter is the vigor effect I think it's the vigor effect or the vigor trigger. There you go. And this has to do with stressing the body through measured, you know applications of certain things talk about that for a little bit like like you talk about hot and cold Therapy and those effects. Yeah, I think it's super important I mean, you know, we all know the value of physical exercise But there's another type of exercise that you know the modern human has sort of lost touch with and that is thermal exercise So getting out experiencing routine cold or even mildly cool temperatures Is to the benefit of our of our biology. I mean researchers have basically taken human subjects They've thrown them in labs. They've made them sleep there for you know months at a time and they found that even when exposed to temperatures at around 66 degrees Fahrenheit You start to cultivate brown fat, which is metabolically active. It burns calories burns fat burns sugar and And having more brown fat on your body is associated with, you know, better overall metabolic health better brain health and things like that So I'm a big fan of just routinely exposing my body whether it's through cold showers cold plunges they're now using cold plunges as You're seeing these case studies pop up in the literature of people even self-treating Depression with cold water swimming and things like that So I detail all of that research in the book and how just, you know, how important thermal exercise is I talk about saunas a lot too. I was really turned on to the health benefit of saunas By a number of studies that are coming out of the University of Eastern Finland that are showing us that saunas are just this one of the most I think Effective healing modalities that exists. I mean saunas are and I mean you guys know you have an infrared sauna Actually interestingly about infrared saunas They're not actually technically the the International sauna Association doesn't want them to be called saunas. Well, yeah, which is a really funny Thing I mean I'll use an infrared sauna because they get you to sweat and sweating is a great way to purge Environmental toxins and things like that but um, but yeah, I mean when you're sitting in a sauna you're you're getting rid of it potentially You know endocrine disrupting chemicals certain heavy metals It acts like an exercise memetic. I mean if you put your finger on the radial pulse in your wrist You'll see that your your heart rate is getting up to a BPM. That's like, you know about what you would see on a treadmill You know going at like a mile to moderate pace it Boosts blood flow all over the body which is similar to when you put like a hot compress on a swollen or on a sprained ankle or something It starts to get you know, you'll see blood flow in the area it boosts nitric oxide So when you sit in a sauna does that all of your body it boosts, you know circulation. It's great for your brain and they're seeing that that that regular sauna use is associated with a pretty dramatic risk reduction for cardiovascular disease stroke for all-cause dementia for Alzheimer's disease And things like that. So yeah, I read a study that showed a dramatic reduction all-cause mortality For people who used some for me The biggest thing was when I use the sauna regularly or when I would do like a cold shower or cold dip regularly I noticed that I got better at it So I noticed that I could stay in a sauna for 20 minutes at a particular intensity and then you know After a couple weeks I could do it for 25 or 30 or I could withstand, you know 60 seconds under a freezing shower and eventually worked my way up to you know Three or four minutes and what that tells me is that just like with resistance training when I'm lifting weights and getting stronger There's a part of my body that's adapting and strengthening My ability to acclimate to temperature is becoming stronger which tells me it was atrophied in the first place and Anything that's atrophied on the human body not as healthy What's your theory on that how it affects the immune system because one of the things that I felt was a and I don't know if This is so much causation or correlation that when I did it for consistent six months I really started to notice how resilient I would be with getting sick like yeah I used to be the guy who if one of us had a cold in here guaranteed. I'm getting sick Just there's I'm just had a weak immune system ever since I started doing a hot cold contrast I now my son can be sick Katrina can be sick I've gone two years without being sick like never in my life Have I ever been that long without getting sick or that resilient? I attribute that to that Do you believe that it plays a role in that? Yeah, it's not even believe like they're there That's been published like people who who use sauna more frequently. They get a I forget if it was the common cold or flu So don't don't quote me, but but yeah, I mean that's that's that's been a that's a documented phenomena that people You know that that engage in sauna more frequently. They less risk, you know lower risk for colds or flues one of the two But um, yeah, there's this idea that I advance to that chapter It's called cross adaptation, which I think is really cool and this notion It's this idea that when you submit your body to a certain type of stressor And so I call it the vigor trigger when you when you submit to a certain whether it's cold stress or heat stress The acclimation that you endure has a spillover effect into other areas of your life So maybe it's like immune function. Maybe it's also your ability to be resilient in the face of psychological stress You know, like if you can if you can endure, you know a cold shower and you practice I don't know. Maybe we can use the term progressive overload for these kinds of stimuli because it's like right Why not? So if you're like progressively overloading your your, you know, thermal sensors or whatever with, you know Cold showers and then, you know, maybe a more intense cold water immersion That you know conceivably is gonna have a significant spillover effect into other areas of your life I would a hundred percent agree. One of the first things clients would tell me when I train them Is they did they just felt besides physically stronger? They just felt stronger in the board room. They felt stronger at home They felt like they can handle emotional stress better and it's mental fortitude Yeah, it's just because it requires a certain level of fortitude to train yourself at a particular intensity It makes perfect sense that that would apply to you know, because it's uncomfortable being in a hot sauna And it's uncomfortable being in freezing water So it makes perfect sense that you would have that spillover one thing I found too with the cold water immersion Which I didn't know if like this is another thing that's documented or not with With with me like the the normal tendency was to when I encountered stress was to really bear down embrace And that was something that you know from sports It was something I would always do when I was under a lot of Tension or stress or even if it was from work or anything and what that does in Me actually going in and going through the cold water It showed you right away that doesn't work like you really have to release and you have to be able to breathe and calm And find that that calm state and the quicker you do that the the easier it is to stay in there Versus the other where you're just suffering the whole time. Yeah, I found I found exactly that like when I get into these cold like I do The water that I get into there There's like a place in New York in a place in LA where I can get into I can do like legit cold immersion and the temperatures about 48 degrees Fahrenheit and I I've learned exactly that that you know You're you're kind of gut instinct is to start to like hyperventilate, but if you just kind of like tune into your breath and like slow it down It becomes a lot more bearable Which makes you think that it'll carry over into all stress of life, right? No matter what would it be physical or mental emotional You just learn to relax a little bit more in a very hyper stress state which to think of the carry over I feel like I have like access to that now too and I like encounter like more stressful situations I can find that calm a little easier. Well, I mean not to go off topic But it's oftentimes our resistance to reality is what makes it so damn Difficult to begin with so you're in this cold water and you're resisting it like no that that resistance is just making it More difficult right no such thing as big problems only problems that we perceive to be big Yeah, so you just chill out. Well, I you know no pun intended, but I'm gonna just chill here and just accept the fact that Yeah, that's okay. That's a line that I've actually I used to do a lot of yoga like back in the day before I had the Messed up my lower back, but that's another story But one of the one of the best things I was able to take away from yoga is the idea that you just you know When you're in like a stressful pose just breathe into it. Yeah, you know They use that that term a lot and I really appreciate it and I find that that term you can take to any area of your life Now that the chapter that was really that's Most interesting to me personally was about all the the toxic elements and we covered a little bit I thought he was gonna say the one he contributed The chapter that I thought was best was definitely the one that I contributed to There is an exercise segment to you and it makes perfect sense obviously this book is all about a healthy life Of course, you're gonna talk about exercise But the but the the chapter that had to do with the toxic compounds that were exposed to That's very fascinating. We touched a little bit on that at the beginning of the podcast But there's other things in there that I think I'd like to ask you questions about for example, you talk about how some drugs are and I hope I'm saying this right our Anti-colon colonergic colonergic. Thank you. Yeah anti histamines in particular. First of all, what does that mean? What is an anti-colonergic compound? What does that mean? Basically a drug that blocks the The the functioning of a neurotransmitter in the in the brain and body Called acetylcholine, which is important for learning and memory It's also involved in voluntary muscle control and involuntary muscle muscle control and so, you know, you'll see certain drugs like You know to to stop incontinence, you know that have an anti-colonergic effect But also, you know, you'll see drugs that are used to treat in air quotes Conditions like Alzheimer's disease that are working, you know inversely to actually increase, you know The functioning of acetylcholine in the brain But there's this whole category of drugs called anti-colonergic and there's tons of them that, you know many of many of these drugs people take chronically and Their toxicity is well known, you know any any doctor, you know is aware of the toxicity of too much You know of too high of a dose of an anti of an anti-colonergic drug But what is unsettling and why I talk about it in the book is that chronic use of Anti-colonergic drugs is associated with a dramatically increased risk for dementia And so it's it would be impossible. I mean impossible to name all of them But yeah, some of the more common ones are over-the-counter anti histamine drugs that are that people take for allergies and also for as a sleep aid People take them all the time like Benadryl. Yeah. Wow now Could you let's say you are somebody who suffers from terrible allergy? I have I have nieces and nephews who have lots of you know allergies and and really the one of the only ways they get relief is by taking Claritin or Zyrtec on a regular basis and then when they get acute attacks at the tick of the things Can you offset some of those and those those effects by supplementing with a high? Choline diet or by supplementing with acetylcholine. Do you know that if that makes a difference? Yeah, I don't think so And that is not something that I've seen in the in the literature Okay, I wouldn't think so but I will say that there's probably Options that if you were to go to your physician, you know that are non anti-colonergic you could easily ask Okay, got it. Yeah, interesting. You talk about Microwaving food and plastics This one was something I told Adam a long time ago because he would always be warming up his food in his plastic containers What's the problem with that? Yeah, the problem is a lot of the compounds that are used to make plastic are not inert They're able to leech into our food and heat catalyzes that that reaction and so it's not the microwaving per se that is a problem, but It's it's heating or storing in a sense. We're melting plastic into our food a little bit Yeah, yeah, you also don't want to um, I know that sous vide cooking is very popular among among Culinary affixionados delicious. It's a fantastic way to add plastic to your food. That's what I thought. Yeah, I knew it They make they make a bag though now that are plastic free. They're called like silicon bags. Yeah. Yes What about silicone is there any fears with silicone leaching? I know it's one more stable, you know compounds But yeah, I don't think so but I'm not you know I don't know the product the problem with a lot of these compounds is that Consumers become aware and then it becomes this chemical game of whack-a-mole where you know There's all these like replacement products on the market and there's really no Data either, you know in favor of or against so with silicone I you know, I don't know and what I read on silicone was that it could withstand a higher temperature And that's why it wasn't leaching in so if I recall That was the big difference and that's what then that's what makes plastic so bad. It's not the microwave It's not the plastic in itself. It's that at certain temperatures it both basically melts or leaches into your food And now we're consuming some of the plastic So I think what what what the sous vide or the people that have they can't I don't remember who the brand that came up The product, but I remember when I bought the sous vide That was the first thing that I looked into was okay This can't be a good idea to put a plastic sandwich bag and throw my food in there and then boil it I mean that's got to be melting in there. Yeah, if I'm microwaving plastic is bad. That's got to be bad But the silicone I think can handle a higher temperature than you actually boil water at and that's what that's what they say, right? You talked also in in the book about the mercury to selenium ratio and fish now This is something that I recently learned recently got married and Jessica and I are going to be trying to have a baby soon and One of the recommendations is be careful for eating too much fish because of the mercury content But as you dig a little deeper you find that selenium when there's a high amount of selenium in fish It offsets that a little bit. Am I correct? Yeah, I mean that's that's the hypothesis But a lot of the the primarily the early studies that we're linking fish consumption to mercury toxicity So mercury is toxic right the studies linking fish consumption to mercury toxicity all actually initially involved the pilot Well, which is not a fish but a mammal and it has far higher levels of mercury than I see selenium But the most commonly available fish are gonna have more selenium than mercury and selenium is a well-known antidote to mercury Toxicity because murky one of the reasons why mercury is toxic is that it binds to selenoproteins in the brain that serve as antioxidants Oh, yeah, I see so you eat you eat a fish that's high in selenium or has a better selenium to mercury ratio Probably not a problem. You definitely want to avoid king mackerel swordfish shark things like that and you know if you're pregnant, you know the the Advice from, you know authorities is to limit consumption of tuna and things like that, but tuna does have a higher selenium than mercury You know ratio it does have a positive selenium to mercury ratio So I don't think there's anything wrong with consuming tuna And in fact when you look and I talk about these studies in the book observationally women who are pregnant who consume more fish and you know You have to imagine that most of the fish that people are consuming in this country are you know Probably tuna is one of the most commonly consumed if not the most commonly consumed fish Women who consume more seafood have babies that come out having higher IQs and better cognitive function and things like that So I think the benefits of consuming fish outweigh the risks and then when you look at the fish that are actually Gonna be the best for you because they have higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids like salmon and mackerel Not king mackerel, but but like the regular mackerel that you would buy there or sardines They all have you know very low amounts of mercury and then You talk about non-steroidal anti-inflammatories in there What are some of the the cautions that people should should take heed to when when using those? Yeah? I think Acute use is fine if you have like you know pain And so I try to in this chapter what I try to do is I definitely don't want to fear monger That's not my goal, but these are all the kinds of compounds that I think people just like take you know They're not very discriminating. They just kind of assume that because they're available to us that they're safe You know, I know people take them every single day. There you go. Yeah single day. Yeah So I mean that's what I try to dissuade I try to get my readers to think a little bit more critically and to dissuade them From just doing anything too much, you know, and that includes the use of these NSAID drugs non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, which You know, they disrupt enzymes that that protect the gut barrier, which is super important They are they've been shown to Negatively affect the mitochondria of cardiac tissue and they can also easily cross the blood-brain barrier And we know that mitochondrial dysfunction of neurons is one of the earliest You know problems essentially with Alzheimer's disease, you know, the brain the brain has an Problems creating energy essentially Which is a you know energy is created in the mitochondria and so Yeah, so I mean I tried to dissuade people from using them on a on a chronic basis There's no link between NSAID consumption and or NSAID and said use and Dementia or Alzheimer's disease. So I make that I make that caveat in the book But I just try to get people to think more critically and if you know If you do have a pain condition and you need these drugs and by all means use these drugs Yeah, I've seen an athletic or performance-based studies that lots of use of NSAIDs can Reduces muscle strength adaptations from exercise and yeah has been connected to increase Later on risk of tendon Enligament rupture because you know the blocking the inflammatory signal and part of that inflammatory signal is important Tells the body to repair and build so it can actually have a negative effect on performance if you consume them too regularly Yeah, and I believe there's a link with regular NSAID use and risk for Colostridium difficile infection, which is like oh see you know see that yeah causes, you know I forget how many millions of hospitalizations every year a significant number of deaths So you really especially for the elderly that's a big one. That's a lot of like that's a big thing to watch out for in These homes for the elderly is C. Diff because if that that has been known to kill people in advanced age Yeah, I mean I've had like it's better now and I've been strengthening my core and everything But I've had like chronic low back pain for the past five years and I rarely will take a medication for it I'm not saying that everybody should be like me You know if you have pain take minute, you know don't suffer But I'll do all jump through hoops to make sure that I don't have to take like pain medications You know all like anti-inflammatory like omega-3s and curcumin which there's very limited You know evidence that they can help treat pain, but you ever use can you ever use cannabis or cannabinoids? I've tried some CBD because I got hooked up with your guys. Yeah, you know, I can't say I haven't taken it for pain So I can't you know, I can't comment on that. I'm not a fan of THC So I've never used that makes a paranoid. Yeah You're too smart. That's why is that what it is. I don't know. I've never been able to analytical thinker Oh, yeah, I could definitely make your paranoid Yeah, if you have to one of the things that I enjoy talking with you though Because you do talk about some of the fringe borderline what someone would say woo-woo stuff But you do it in a very non-zellet way like it's and I agree with your the way you present it because it's like You know never in in history have we been like this where we have this many offenders You know one of these things by themselves Probably not gonna cause cancer probably not gonna kill somebody probably not a big deal The occasional introduction of it here and there But it's like you're getting bombarded by all of them And if you're just if you have the attitude of and why I don't like people that try and fight with someone like you with your message and say Oh, that's bullshit. The research doesn't support that you're fine doing that is you give people a free pass to just say fuck it and go Over the overboard with it and I know being somebody who you know, we talk about this even with like highly processed foods and things I mean I could be using some hair products some beard oil toothpaste Microwaving six of my meals all in plastic I mean that could be in a day Drinking out of it like all that like in a single day and wrapping something in the wax paper that now funny I'm touching receipts and you got to think that like all of that can't be good And if I can make some small changes like simply using glassware instead of plastic, you know Or limiting the amount of drinking out of a plastic bottle and switching like it's not like I'm I'm you know Trying to freak anybody out, but it's like why why not why not make that better easy switch I'm not asking you to spend tons extra money You just make a smarter choice and limit the amount exposure you're doing. Yeah, exactly I mean, I think knowledge is power and most people live the way that you described I mean most of the time like, you know people don't don't really have this information And so I think I think it's important to get it out there and you know, that's that's why I take issues sometimes with You know online in the fitness community, you'll see people who are like sugar apologists, you know or junk food apologists You probably see this all the time but it's like I don't think that we're considering the public health implications of You know giving this advice that sugar suddenly gets a free pass if you're you know counting your calories Because it's just you know like look at the look at the population statistic Well, that was the main debate we had with our buddy Lane. That's like how we got connected was you know His message I mean he just did another video the other day and I just chuckle and laugh and kind of roll my eyes like You know because he tries to take the opposing side that we demonize sugar And so he made did you see his video he did the other day? No, I didn't say he made him He made like this spoof video of a drug deal going down, but it was sugar. Oh, I saw that. Yeah Yeah, but the thing is he's speaking to an echo chamber essentially of like fitness people and I'm actually like not I'm you know I get to go on freaking dr. Oz show the Rachel Ray show and I'm hyper aware of the fact that I'm reaching like the masses Right, you know, and I'm like to give them a free pass to eat more sugar. What yeah, you know what well And that's how that was our big debate, you know that we had with him was that you know for two decades We changed the average Joe's you know how many competitors and pro athletes I got to train like fucking less than a percent one Yeah, the other 99 plus percent were average Jane and Joe's and those people can't be here in that message I can't be promoting to them that like yeah If you train like me and do oh so that then go ahead eat all the sugar You want as long as it fits in your macros like that message is not ideal for the for the masses and it's the Small popular and so I think that was that was our big debate with him is exactly that if you control your calories and your macros tightly Sure, you can get away with with certain things, but the average person doesn't even know what a macro is let alone exactly you know controlling it tightly and Heavily processed high sugar foods are hyper palatable and encourage you to eat more So when you take somebody who doesn't control these things super tightly weigh and measure everything and you tell them sugar is okay So long as your calories are not that high what the average person ends up doing is eating that sugar Makes them want to eat more and they underestimate me how many cows are eating anyway So now they have a lot of sugar and it's in the context of a high calorie diet Which is extremely inflammatory and just generally bad So it's just terrible advice because you have to know who you're talking to it's like you have to know your audience And this is how we communicate like artificial sweeteners. That's a great one You see people taking out their their high sugar sodas and replace them with artificial sweeteners and they don't lose any weight Is that because artificial sweeteners can't cause weight gain? No, but it's because they make you eat more So am I gonna tell my client to switch out their sugar for artificial sweeteners? No, because I know it's just gonna make them eat more and I'm working with the average person That's in a very important thing and I think you do a very good job of Talking to that person and not being in that echo chamber. Thanks, man. I really appreciate that appreciate you coming on the show again, bro Yeah, yeah, I'm excited for this book. When is it going coming out comes out March 17th It's called the genius life if you go to genius life book calm We've got some great goodies that we're giving out like free bonuses and but the book is available everywhere It's called the genius life and I'm on Instagram at max luga veer Lug avere and then I've also got my podcast called the genius life also and I know that you've been on it I love it can't wait to have you back. Oh, I love coming on your pocket We always have great discussions now Can people pre-order the book now they can peer to the book right now Okay, oh very cool And did you know you're gonna write this one when you wrote the first one? Did you write the first one that had no idea you're gonna write about? Everything like you're on this one. I did not know that I was gonna write a second book And so the first one was pretty dense But what I did was in there's like slight overlap in the second book But what I did was I expanded on those topics. So for example like I go deep into you know Exercise and that was a chapter that I was super psyched to get to collaborate with you on I Sent it to you because I was like God the last thing I need is like the fitness community catching an error In my in my text, I was like God forbid I say that you can only achieve hypertrophy in like the 8 to 10 rep range when we know You know, so I send that to you. Thank you for for a no problem like you know being serving as a form of checks and balances, but no, yeah, it's um Nutrition genius foods was like a nutritional Bible and then you know what I realized is that nutrition is just one part of the story like if you're you could be like Checking, you know all the teas and dotting all the eyes, you know in terms of your nutrition But if you're not at least conscious of the of the fact that these endocrine disrupting chemicals exist Or if you're not aware of what protein can do in terms of satiating your hunger or you know Getting adequate light in during you know in the morning or or you know giving yourself a break from it in the evening there's like all these different factors and then I go into mindset and stress relief and how to optimize sleep and all that stuff in the book because I mean these are all I think crucially important. Yeah, and the way you write is is I consider this an amazing a great guide to Improving your overall health. It's easy to understand and the way you communicate it You don't Communicate the the small and significant you communicate things in the right way like here's what you can do Realistically and I really appreciate that you did that. Thanks, man. Yeah I mean, I don't think that living a life of counting calories is a I don't I don't consider that a genius life I think that people need to people ought to know how to eat and Unfortunately, we live in a time where the food supply has become essentially toxic, you know I mean we're thrown health claims from every conceivable angle We're being implored to overeat, you know We're we're sold things and we're compelled to buy things that we don't need You know almost every single day multiple times a day and so I think sometimes it's just like the little insights the little tricks that people need to Have an actual like a market difference in their lives in terms of how they feel and their health down the down the road So I tried to pepper The genius life with just tons and tons of those sort of actionable Tips and tricks and counterintuitive things that people might not necessarily think about but that are gonna lead to big health winds Awesome, awesome. Can't wait to see a crush. Thanks, man. I appreciate you guys so much