 Hi everyone welcome to another five-side chat. Thank you so much for joining us and for tuning in wherever you are I know we've got people watching from around the world So we appreciate you taking the time to chat with us today. So today. I've got a very exciting guest I have Snehal Shinde who is a former VP of product at American Express and who is also the CPO and co-founder at Xenie Snehal, thank you so much for joining us today It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me Alan Great, so I'm really keen to dig in and ask you a whole bunch of questions But first I'd like to learn a little bit about a little more about your personal story And how did you get started in the tech and product industries? Yeah, so I basically come from a family of entrepreneurs like my dad my mom My uncle even my grandpa all of them have built businesses in the past And I've always found that super fascinating and I always dream that hopefully one day I can build a business of my own and Basically me and my twin brother Sopnil be from childhood. We have been super fascinated by Startups because of our family and especially our mom and her younger brother They used to come together and come up with a new idea and Then figure out ways of converting that new idea into a product and get the whole family Excited and get them help out with the new product and then eventually go and start selling it to customers So I feel that whole journey was super magical and Then I think in early 90s I think that is when I was introduced to computers learning a language or two. She actually went and learned well different Languages and got certifications in that and used that knowledge to actually start a computer academy and that is how we Actually got introduced to the world of Which is like they say can co-bole even any meeting And that is when we knew that okay, this is the field we have to stick stick to and Then we did our stares in computer engineering eventually and then we came to us to Los Angeles to do our masters in computer science at USC and Interestingly both me and my twin brother soap will be graduated from USC with the same GPA and Actually, it was at USC that we got exposed to What working at a pure tech startup looks like both of us intern at a startup called intact I think and that was based out of any downtown and that is where we actually landed up building the first Streaming player for hoards done and in the first week of building that layer because downloaded more than a quarter million time And I think that is what? Yeah, it was a mind-blowing experience and that is when we decided that okay This is what we want to do long-term, but we didn't actually have good amount of consumer Internet experience after graduating from USC Semantic for almost three years in the Norton antivirus division and then we decided to move from LA to barrier to Which was then the biggest internet brand and our goal was let's go Work at yahoo understand which areas how can you build products that can scale to millions users and hopefully use that experience to start our first company And that is what exactly we did in 2010 yahoo to start our first startup called Dingana Which was basically spotify for Indian music we grew 10 million unique users Streaming a service called audio and after that we left audio to start our second start of Which was it was a year power travel as a service platform acquired by American Express in 2018 and Mezina powers the concierge Within the MX flagship app by more than 50 million consumers worldwide. So that was our second startup and now we have our third startup which is then Well, that sounds like a pretty strong start in the industry Something that I think that I picked up on in that which it's something that gets talked about a lot because it's quite catchy when you say Scaling a product to millions of users and I know that's something that it always sort of like pricks up the ear of many product managers Do you think there's any really big? Misconceptions about how that's done or is there anything that you see? People doing wrong when they try to go for that goal when they're trying to really scale big Is there anything that you see that's like a repeat mistake in that endeavor? Yeah, I think it is Very important to understand that as your users start growing up like for example at Yahoo The Yahoo platform that we had built Used to scale to hundreds of millions of users every single month It at any given second we had more than like 20 to 50,000 users using that product at that particular second And I don't think you can build a product this at this scale by just throwing servers at the problem I think there are three key things to keep in mind that I think even we learned the hard way that kind of get overlooked and The first is when you're building a product make sure that from day one you're building a product that is global It is country and currency agnostic Because if you try to make an existing product global later on you will lose like an ear if not more and this is a problem That actually we faced at Yahoo where we build this platform and on top of that We had websites like Yahoo news sports entertainment all of these websites is to run on a single platform And then there was a need to actually globalize that platform and use in other countries We spent close to 18 months to internationalize that platform Right, that is how difficult it can be if you try to take an existing product and try to make it global So I think that is one key point that I think we should keep in mind And then I think the second one would be to build a product that is truly secured from day one And again, this is something that we learned after Mezi was acquired by MX Which is a public bank that is when we actually got exposed to the right way of building a secure product. We had build it Probably we had done a few basic things when it comes to security But after being part of MX we probably in the first one year with a ton of enhancements from a security perspective right and then the third thing which is critical is Making sure that the platform that you're building is like a series of microservices Right, so that tomorrow if you have a team of hundred engineers each of them should be working in silos on each of those microservices And then if you want to test out a new feature, you don't have to test out the whole platform You can just test that particular microservice push it out into production And I think that is how like we started at Jenny for the first three months We actually never built a single feature. We were making the platform global We were securing it. We were ensuring that it was built as a set of microservices So financial insights can be a microservice receipt bot can be a microservice Like sending out reports can be a microservice So if you build it this way, then you have a strong foundation on which you can continue to build awesomeness for years to come I suppose people get too excited and they want to jump in and build all of the cool shiny things first without thinking about that like Strong base. So I think that's really good advice Absolutely, so I think I think it's it's key to know that you should not be rewriting anything two years down the line So make sure you're doing it right from the one Absolutely, and um speaking of zeni, which is your latest venture the ai powered finance concierge I'm so glad I managed to say that right Uh, what led you to co-found zeni in the first place? What was the what was the main problem that you were trying to solve? Yes, so my twin mother sopnel and I we have been building startups since 2010 And I think one thing we have noticed over and over again is that there is no great solution to actually manage your startups finances At the end of every month, you have to wait for almost three more weeks to get your month-end financials until that point You're basically running blind You have no real insights into what your net burn is whether it is going up and down What your operating expenses are why is the marketing cost going up versus down? And you have to basically Use email to communicate with your accountant or your part-time cpa and that whole process is extremely fragmented It's broken you have exchange sheets flying back and forth And then the only way we figured out that to fix this problem was to for one of us to actually spend Considerable amount of time before the board meeting to get hold of our finances and still it was reactive It was never proactive So we thought given our strong technology background if we can use AI and automation to solve this Then it can be huge And that's why today is any is an AI powered finance concept that basically does two important things for our customers One is we provide you real-time insights into your finances to through a dashboard and We ensure that we do daily bookkeeping for you and second is we have a rockstar team of solid financial professionals Amazing And I guess my next question kind of links back to what we were talking about earlier about the lessons that people need to learn in Scaling products, but maybe we can sort of zoom out and think about how about building products in general What are some of the things that you've learned? About building products through buildings any and like how have you applied them throughout your career? Yeah, so I think the three things that I spoke about which is globalization security and Scaling a platform from day one. I think those three I would say are the most critical of building a product the right way from day one Amazing and yeah And as in your role as a co-founder, you're also the chief product officer Um Now job titles especially in product mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people But how do you work or how do you operate as a chief product officer? And if there's a typical day today or a typical week to week, what does that look like for you? Yeah, so I think as a chief product officer you run into the risk of becoming a single point of failure for your organization And I say that because operations can keep running marketing can keep acquiring new customers, but as As the chief product officer if you're not able to build the exact right product that your customers want Then it's very difficult for you to build a multi-billion dollar company Right and that's why on a day to day basis What I'm maniacally focus focus on is driving the product roadmap forward And most of my time goes on focusing on two things one is the Why and then the second is the what why do we need to build what and I kind of ignore the how part of the whole equation So I might be spending probably 60 percent of my time figuring out the why By talking to customers by talking to our finance experts who are also kind of our internal customers who use the product And we help automate a lot of things that they do So the goal is to figure out why you want to build what And then when you go to the second level which which are the what's then out of Maybe 100 things that you need to focus on what are those key two to three things that are absolutely necessary And that can drive 80 percent of engagement Right. So always try to focus on those 20 things that can have 80 impact on your customers So those are probably the two things that I spend significant portion of my daily time And Since you're also in a position of leadership, maybe you can share some wisdom with us on that What do you think are some of the marks of great leadership particularly in a product setting? I think I would say Trust and transparency would be the two key ones And the reason why I say that is because in a startup It is very important that every single person in your team understands the ups and downs of the startup So at zene what we do is during every month We have a board meeting and during that board meeting We share all the details with everyone in the company transparency. What our sales are how our revenues are growing What we are doing from a product front. What are the customer feedbacks that we are getting whether it is positive or negative So pretty much everyone gets on the same page at the end of that all hands And there are actually some senior execs in the company who feel that might not be the right way to run an organization because You're transparent Transparency basically sharing every damn thing with the with the employees But I think I personally believe you are able to empower each and every member in the team If you are able to do that and then the onus is on each of them to take us to the to the next level And because at the end of the day everyone has ownership in the company So that's why I think trust and transparency are the two key blocks and then I would say The third one would be to remove blocks that anyone of the team members might be facing So I think as long as we are able to focus on these three things it can be amazing for an organization Perfect. So you're an you're an advocate for sort of democratizing things like Data and finances Seems to be the way that most organizations are going nowadays Yeah, yeah, absolutely And what would you say are some of the most important skills that you've used in your career that have led you to where you are today? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I think One thing I would say is the ability to let go so as a leader as a founder. It is very important to Keep in mind that you cannot be everywhere and you cannot do everything and everything cannot be done the way you want it to be done Right. So your ability to let go and hire The right people hire people who are smarter than you to do that particular thing I think that is critical for the success of the organization long term And the second one I would say is hiring. I think I personally believe hiring is an art more than a science And if you're able to hire the right people Then eventually you will reach a stage where you're surrounded by smarter people than you are I think as a founder, it's not important for you to always be at the top But it's important for you for you to build an organization So that if you disappear for three weeks and come back Maybe the product the organization is way better than it would have been if you were there It's saying that should be a long term goal so that hiring would be the second thing And the third thing I would say is the ability to say no to a lot of things that you're doing I think it's important to have a monocle focus on your customers and tune out everything else It doesn't really matter what your customers are doing. Oh, sorry. What your competitors are doing Or what the vcs field a field is the current trend You have to tune out all that and just monocle focus on the customers and do what is right by them And then the fourth one I would say which is very unique and probably not all founders can ever have that is having clone of yourself Right. So luckily I was twin brother Sopnick and both of us compliment each other on a lot of friends So we actually divide and conquer in the best possible way possible And uh, there are times when he will come and talk to me about the issues that he's facing on the marketing and sales friends And I will give my inputs And he will give inputs on the product and technology front. So it's it's like a win-win that we have in place Perfect divide and conquer that seems like the best way to do it um, so as as product people we're always talking about learning and how Education's never finished. You're always learning new things What are some of the things that you're interested in learning about these days? And if you're making time for it, how do you do it? If you're a co-founder and And cpo, how do you make time for sort of developing your skill set and your knowledge? Yeah, so I basically do that by blocking a chunk of time on my calendar like even today I have Till 10 a.m. Is normally blocked and then afternoon times are blocked but I think one thing that I'm trying to learn or I think I'm already better at compared to probably five years back is Focusing on your health and when I say health, it's not just physical health but mental and emotional health I think every founder needs to take out time to focus on their own mental emotional and physical health Because what I have noticed is that if you do it every single day even for just 30 minutes It adds up very quickly and it has a very positive impact on the way you are running your organization Mm-hmm. Definitely. Is that something that you advocate for in your teams as well that everyone should be able to have enough space to You know decompress and Yeah, yeah, absolutely and in fact whenever anyone thinks me that hey, I'm taking a few days off I actually feel good actually tell them that yes, you should take some time off because when you come back You you're fresh. Maybe the problem you're trying to think about before you left on a vacation You might come back and say oh you were overthinking it It's always very important to simplify things. I think even from a product perspective It is very difficult to build a product that is super simple And it's very easy to build a product that has 100 features in it. So I think simplicity will win long term That's such an interesting paradox that it's easy to build something complicated and complicated to build something easy That's really funny And since you've moved into more of a position of authority, are there any new skills that you've had to develop? I know we touched briefly on hiring But are there any skills that you have to use in your day to day now that you're in an authority position more so than before? Yeah, I think I would say is the ability to sell Right. So as normally when if you look at technology startups technology startups are started by technologies right, so There will be a lot of good builders But there will be very few builders who can eventually be good salespeople as well And the ability to sell is as important as your ability to build a good product If you're not able to tell a good story around that product Then your chances of taking that to the next level is very little That's why that is why I would say Ability to sell is a big deal and I have normally seen that someone who is good Who is a good salesperson might not be a good builder But a good builder has an ability to be a good salesperson I think that is one thing definitely that I think a skill that I've gained over the past several years And the second thing I would say is The ability to come connect with people on an emotional level And this can be your customers. It can be your team members on even business partners And the way that at least I have been able to do that is just by being yourself Don't try to be someone else. Don't try to do things differently Do things that come naturally to you because when you do that, it shows up in everything everything Absolutely, I remember an old boss of mine used to say Bring your personality to work and I think that was quite valuable advice like yeah Like connect on a human level like be an actual person instead of just a role. I think it's very valuable advice Yeah A little bit before before we went live about you know the usual things that people talk about going remote and When are we going back to the office? What does that landscape look like for you? You mentioned to me that you were going into the office a few days Is hybrid something that you think that you'll pursue long term Yeah, absolutely. I think especially for zany, right because Zany we have financial professionals within the company then we have engineer and product team And that cross pollination between the two teams is very important for building the right product And the best conversations don't actually have in meetings, right? You cannot set up a meeting and then talk about solving a problem I've always seen that the best conversations happen over lunch Or over a cup of tea or when you're standing and just having water That is when you actually have the true meaningful conversations and then you have a meeting around that conversation And that is one aspect that I think we are missing And I personally feel that it is one of the reasons why that probably we are a bit slower in pushing out everything Compared to say if there was no covid scenario before So I am definitely a big advocate of going to offices maybe not five days a week Maybe three days a week But that cross pollination that chemistry that you have with your team members when you're face to face with them I think that is priceless Definitely, it's it's the people that make the job and that make the company. So having them in the room together Yeah, having like you said the chemistry. It really does work And I think that we're always talking about in the community is tools people love getting tool recommendations So I have to ask what tools are in the stack that your product team uses at the moment. What are some of your current favorites? Yes, so for project management, we use notion And we are also trying to use click up for a bit of our Engineering team, but your notion is what we have been using predominantly Then for communication we use slack for design Uh collaboration we use figma for customer feedback we use hub spot And then for getting real-time insights into how people how customers are using our product we use mix panel So those are probably the top five tools that we are using today Okay, amazing some very familiar names to everyone in there. I'm sure especially like who doesn't he's not on slack nowadays absolutely And you you've had such a successful career so far What advice would you give to your younger self when you were maybe just just leaving Formal education and embarking on your career. What what are the main pieces of advice? Yeah, I think one thing I would say is Surround yourself with people who are way smarter than you I think that way you can learn faster. You can leapfrog ahead and charge Sorry turbo charge your life I think That is something if you're able to figure out how to surround yourself. It's smarter people. It's it's like priceless. It's a game changer And I think second thing what I would do is like probably I spend like more than 10 years working for big organizations like adp and semantic and yahoo I would if there is one thing I would have to I would like to change I would cut down that and maybe just work I would have preferred to just work at yahoo for three years and that is more to do with understanding our Having an understanding about how to build an amazing culture And then how to build products that can scale to millions of users I think that would be the second thing and the third thing is I touched briefly upon that a bit earlier, but your ability to say no I think it is Super important that you don't go and start pleasing everyone around you I think it is important to understand what is must have and what is good to have and only focus on those Excellent advice there, especially about I know we've mentioned it a couple of times here about Surround yourself with people smarter than you I think it's so interesting that we spend all of this time Educating ourselves and becoming better versions of ourselves. But ultimately the goal is to be the dumbest person in the room Absolutely, and you should not shy away from just Goal messaging anyone on linkedin or going into meetups and getting hold of the right person and having five minute conversation with them I think you would be surprised how eager people are to help you out when you're getting started Definitely what a what a positive note to end on. I'm so sad that we do have to end But unfortunately we have run out of time Stale, thank you so much for joining us. I'm sure I'm sure everyone watching learned a lot. I certainly did Yep, thanks a lot my pleasure Okay, so thank you so much for joining us wherever you tuned in from and we will see you in the next fireside chat. Bye