 What's up, everyone? How's everyone doing? I'm gonna shit-sit up, sorry. Meow. Meow. Meow, meow, meow, meow. Why's it not letting me view Natsuo's request? What's going on here? There we go. Hello, Kathy. How you doing? There we go. There we go. What's up, buddy? What's up? Not much. Why is the... Get this rocking. That's weird. What? Oh, normally the people counter up there is like all lit up, but it's dimmed on my thing. Yeah, same with mine. Weird. You ever seen it look like that before? Uh-uh. Me neither. Yeah. Either way. It was something different. It was, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know if you want to wait to get started. There's only 80% or so. Yeah, there are people popping in. It's growing. It's 702. More, more, more. We bullshit for a minute, I suppose. Yeah. Before people actually hop on. You know, but it's going to be kind of a... You got any new news? Huh? You got any new news? Anything good? You can share with the public? Share with the public. Not quite yet. But not quite yet. But I mean, I am going on a... Well, I have to actually see about next week because I'm going on that adventure to... Which one? I'm going to try to find some long-lost cutting. Oh, that one. You're going on the adventure. I'm going on the adventure, I think, next week. Yeah, one of our buddies is going to be super happy about that. Yeah, I might even be able to get lunch with them or something. That'd be cool. Yeah. It would be neat. Yeah, I hope you get it, dude. I hope it works out. So, we are going to chat today about a pretty wide topic. But people have been asking a lot about it. Which is sort of like the whole hash plant topic. Right? Because it's met different things at different times. And there's a lot of old, famous hash plants. And there's a lot of breeding that got bred into those. And then there's a lot of new, modern ones. Yeah, new modern plants for hash. Yeah, I mean, not only... And by modern, I mean, like even like... You know, there was a whole new round of named cuts that got hash plant labels or different things. And now hash plant actually means something totally different. Sure does. So, yeah, we're going to kind of talk widely about hash plants. So, if you ever have any hash plant questions or anything along those lines, today's a great day to shoot them and see what's up. I got all the catalogs ready. I've got illustrations ready of said hash plants, most of them. And I even went back and... Because there was one hash plant I thought of that nobody ever really mentions anymore, but for a while in the like the 0809 era, it was pretty popular and that was the cuttlefish. So I even dug up info on the old cuttlefish hash plant. The old cuttlefish. So, yeah, we're going to go over as many as we can remember. As many as we can. So, yeah, we're going to talk about the history of hash plant. We're going to talk about a bunch of specific cuts. People can ask away about specific cuts they're interested in. Like Matt just said, he's got a list. But like maybe the term hash plant, you know, just to start, right, is kind of a weird term because all Afghans back then were pretty much bred and grown for hash. Yes. But then some strains got called hash plant and some strains got called other names. And do we know that it was Neville the first one to name a strain or did it come over that way with that name and then he used the name? I mean, I don't know. You know, the only thing that we know about like the G13 and the PNW hash plant is that Neville says he bought them in Oregon through friends of Jorge Cervantes. Yeah, yeah. And Jorge confirmed that, you know? Yeah. But we don't know the origin stories. So I assume he just called it what he got it. It was a hash plant. Yeah, I assume so too. I don't know where the name evolved. It would be nice to ask Jorge, but I don't know if he would know. But it's weird because it's like essentially like hash plant started off as basically being any Afghan. Yes. Because they were all, that's what marijuana was grown for. Yeah. Was to make hash. And so people started bringing over all these Afghans or hash plants or whatever, all these various different things over to America. And we talked about this a bunch, but crossing them with a bunch of different sativas. Yeah. Right? Yep. That's kind of the beginning of it. Right? Yes. So here's, this is, I can probably jump the gun on showing this one actually. Let's go ahead. Go ahead. I mean, it's not terribly jumping the gun. So what happened is, is that a bunch of people started bringing over these Afghans because they wanted to add bigger, chunkier buds to their sativas. And they wanted their sativas to finish earlier, right? Yeah. So Afghanistan is a super different climate than over here. So most of these hash plants or Afghans that they brought over, they just rotted. Yeah. They just, they just bred in terrible rot. So the vast majority of the seeds that people brought over ended up being not that useful. Yeah. Like people would go and get their sativas seeds from before they bred that indica into it. Mm-hmm. Right? And so they're, so early on, early on the big hunt for hash plants or the big hunt for Afghans was ones that didn't rot. Yeah. And that's kind of why I think some of these cuttings became so popular. Like, you know, because most, you know, most of the breeding that got done just got done with specific moms. Yeah. Because once you found one that did that, you traded it. Right? Yeah. That's how they did over there. That's how they did it. So, so there's an aspect where it's like Neville went and, you know, Neville even said that like, because Matt held up his catalog or whatever, all that hunting that Neville did in Afghanistan, he said regrettably like those Afghans weren't as nice as some of the clone onlys he got sent over from America. Yeah. Whether that was Big Bud or the Pacific Northwest hash plant or the G13 or, you know, some of the cuttings that he got. And so these cuttings that did well, you know, the NL5, all these different things are getting passed around. Yeah. Because they work. Right? So Neville probably, with Matt just held up, Neville probably made it really famous. This is the hash plant pier. By, he crossed the hash plant to like the G13 and the NL1. And he, and then he took a G13 NL1 and he back crossed it to the hash plant again. And that's what Matt was showing, that ugly squat thing, hash plant pier. Yeah. This is the hash plant pier, which I mean, you know, there is debate on whether the PNW hash plant that exists today is this. But looking at this and granted, you know, different growing environments, everything else, I would be hard pressed to say this looks anything like the cut indoors grown here of the PNW. It doesn't. It looks puckish though. It sure does look puckish. I wouldn't say it looks like the hash plant cut that gets passed around either. But boy, does it look like some ugly puck. It sure does. It's bud formation and all that type of stuff. And so what's weird, maybe I should say this before we move on. What's weird about what we did, right? Is someone just asked, so Afghan is hash plant now. The Afghan people grew Afghans to make into hashish. Yes. You know, they made hash. They still make hash. They don't smoke flower. So they never called it hash plants. Yeah. Right? Like it was, it was just a term that got put on to Afghans. And then people think it made it meant something specific. But all Afghan and Pakistani stuff, that's what they did with their plants. Yeah. You make hash, you know. And so, you know, and so there's an aspect where we brought all these plants over to America. Okay. And started fucking with them, whether they're Steve Murphy's Afghan that started the NL thing or the, you know, or the Pacific Northwest hash plant or the big bud story or whatever. Yeah. But we weren't using them for hash plants. No. We weren't growing fields like they were and doing anything that they were doing. Yeah. Right? So what we did, we were looking for them to blend well with our sativas. Yeah. Right? Now that's a trip, right? Right when they got to America, a completely different set of selection pressures got put into play. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were selecting for breeding. They came over here. They had been selected to work well in the Afghanistan environment to make those people hash. And we brought it over here and tried to blend it with our favorite weed to get good weed to smoke. Right? And to finish early indoors, sure. Yeah. But I mean, all these different, like they weren't trying to, they weren't, there was no indoor. I mean, we used Afghans for indoor when they came over. Yeah. But no, they, from Afghanistan or Pakistan or that region, they were always growing outside. Oh yeah. Yeah. They weren't blowing up houses in Afghanistan. No. And they didn't, they came from a cold, dry environment. So they weren't worried about the mold. Yeah. I'm just saying that like all of the farmers looking for, for, you know, you know, genetics, you know, various aspects that benefit an Afghanistan farmer was much different than a Washington, Oregon, California indoor or outdoor grower trying to fuck with some Mexicans and some Colombians and some Panamanians and some Thai and blend this Afghan into that and get what they wanted. Yeah. We had a way different set of selection pressure and we didn't really make hash for a long time except for private. Yeah. Right? Yep. So, you know, but we liked, they were short, they were squat. They were, they had a bunch of crystal, you know, and were visual creatures too. So frosty looking nugs work better for Americans, you know. And so what were the, what were the famous, what are the famous earliest hash plants? So the early ones, I mean, as far as the earliest we're going to go, you know, like, I mean, the PNW, there weren't a lot of early, early hash plants. But some of the ones early in the scene would be like, you know, there was the seed bank hash plant, which would be their hash plant pure, which would be different from, you know, the G13 or the hash plant N01, which was using the G13 hash plant N01. We have the puck, of course, aka Skelly. We have the cuttlefish hash plant, BC hash plant. There was also a champagne hash plant, which I'm not sure is different from the BC hash plant. Maybe some of the Canadian folks will know. We have hash plant 13. Yeah. And some of these, some of these aren't even necessarily from the hash plant family of strains that came from Neville, you know. Some of these were just called hash plant because of whatever reason. It became a bit, hash plant is a bit like kush in that it's a general term that applies to a wide variety of things. Yeah. You know. And why one thing was all labeled kush and another thing was labeled hash plant when the kush was destined to be made into hash. Yeah. It's just one of those language things that happened. Yeah. And then there is, there is some confusion. I guess we can go into individual ones in a little bit. So if you want to continue, I don't want to jump it. No. I mean, so that's basically like, and then it became famous because in the 80s, as, as he just showed, Neville started calling things hash plant. And there was famous hash plant hybrids. You know, and mostly Americans used it because it was a short squat, decent yielding frosty plant inside. Yeah. We weren't, you know, nobody was really making hash in America. We smoked flour mostly. Yeah. Oh, see, champagne was different from the BC. Very interesting. Good to know. And it's actually interesting, maybe if you were going to jump around, but I'm going to really jump around to like today. Okay. Go ahead. So when, when we first brought over all these hash plants, they were brought over and they had been bred to be excellent hash plants. Yeah. Right. And people like, people in Europe and in the know, and you know, Sammy and stuff have told me that they feel like a lot of modern cultivars like a really shitty hash plants. Yeah. That a lot of the traditional ones that were bred for that specifically and bred for resin are much better plants for that. Yeah. Because they were never bred for anything else. Yeah. And now with the legalization and all that and the hash revolution that's happened with all these various elements and dabs and everything, we're actually like looking, people talk about dumpers. Yeah. Right. They talked about hash yield a lot in various ways and methods. And so figuring out what plants are good hash plants is like back in vogue. Yeah. Kind of for the first time ever. Yeah. Like on any kind of like commercial scale. People have been making hash here privately to share with their friends forever. Yeah. But as far as like a major thing, it's probably, it's pretty recent, last 20 years probably. Yeah. Easily. And now with testing and people can be like, oh, this thing washes 6% or this thing washes this, people start hunting for hash plant yields. Yeah. And what is a good washer? What keeps its flavor? But we went 40 fucking years without those pressures being applied. This is good input from Archive. He said dumpers are mainly just plants with higher than average THC to turf ratio. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Good info. So there's an aspect where it's like for a long time from what most people is hash plants came over here and got mixed with other weed for breeding purposes. Because if you look at the puck or you look at that picture, some of those things were short squat, ugly. They weren't the most attractive things always. Yeah. Even Chem91, aside from hash plants, Chem91 is another Afghani not necessarily known for its beautiful qualities. Same kind of way. Yeah. Same kind of way. Yeah. But they started becoming famous because he put them in the first catalog. Yeah. And so there was hash plants. And then like he was saying the Skelly, there's some that survived from back then that became got really well known. Yeah. But they're not related. No. Not a lot. Just someone's asking me to show the hash plant pure again. So I'm going to show that again. There we go. So the hash plant pure, Neville took the hash plant clone only he got from Oregon and he crossed it to a male NL1 and then he took a male of that hybrid and crossed it back to the hash plant. And that was his hash plant pure. Yeah. And that's honestly kind of like what he did with a number of things like when he offered his Hawaiian Indica, there's a number of things where he crossed it once to NL1 and then crossed a male of that hybrid back to itself and just released it as a pure line. Yeah. That was actually a reasonably common tactic. That makes sense. Yeah. It does appear that Neville got the hash plant and the G13 on the same trip at the same time from the same people even. How would you have liked to have been able to grab a pack of that? Yeah. Original Afghan mix? Neville sold seeds that Jim Ortega had given him. Yeah. He got so many that he offered up the same seeds that he found all of the maple leaf stuff in. He sold for a couple of years as just 50 pack, 50 pack reader packs. And 150 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. Unreal. Neville was cool in that sense and that he pretty much just told you what he was crossing. There was no real secrecy behind it. Mm-hmm. But he was also first. So he didn't have to hide anything. Yeah. That helps. But yeah, you know, these hash plants, some of these hash plants have gotten famous. It's very likely that the Puck is a direct descendant of that picture, Matt. You know, that's the rumor at least that it seeds from then. And then our buddy Bodie has a pretty famous number of lines out that him and other people have used. Matt got some of those from NDN Guy, the G13 hash plant, which was another. The G13 hash plant. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of how they type it or whatever. But it's basically supposed to be from the first year that Neville released the G13 hash plant hybrid. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I mean, who knows what they were really from or what year or which seed bank or any of that. But that was the story given with them. It was 1988 since he seeds hash plant with G13 hash plant, which was what they said. So whatever it is, I mean, it's it that exists. And so a lot of people have that and people have Puck hybrids and some people still have the Puck clone. Yeah. You know, and so there's some old hash plants that exist. But you can kind of can like, and then there was kind of like another wave where people started kept using the nickname. Yes. But it was all grown for flower. Yeah. In my opinion. Nobody was really making. Nobody was really using it the way they used it in Afghanistan. No, not not in the U.S. Not in the U.S. So. But yeah, there was there was something Puck is the hash plant. You know, they think or they think it is. That's what I mean. It looks like traditional hash plant. The hash plant strain, like in that picture, it does have a lot of those similar traits. It does have a lot of similar traits, you know, and it's out there in the community and stuff like that. People breed with it. So, you know, at the very least it ties back to something old. Yeah. But that's both basically what they were doing is, is in America we were looking for like hash plants and Afghans that we could cross to other things and would bring the flowering time and the height and add some crystal and some density. But keep a lot of the other qualities from the sativa. Yeah. Those were sort of the first blends that people were after. Was they wanted structurally what the hash plant did. Yeah. And the flavors of the sativa and the high. But the flavor and the smoke and the stretch, you know. Yeah. So, you know, it's one of those, it's one of those aspects where we put a bunch of different selection pressures on it, but kept the name. Yeah. See what we got here. So one of the ones often mentioned is the cuttlefish, you know, like not often mentioned, I should say, but in the, in the like late 2000s, it was used a lot by sub pools crew. And best I could tell, I remember talking to Jill about it came from bad boy, whoever that was. One of their buddies. And it was actually a super skunk crossed a skunk skunk one. And it was like a fruity, they say skunky fruity. I'm not sure on all that, but yeah, that was what the cuttlefish hash plant was. It wasn't even a sensey hash plant or seed bank hash plant. It was a super skunk skunk one. So we, we had a bunch of people that were just asking about the G 13. So we could focus on that for a minute. Hey, Fletch, you want to come on and talk to you 13. You're from that area. So like I said before, one part of the story is that Neville said on one of his American trips, he bought the G 13 and the hash plant clone from somebody. There he is. What's up, Fletch? Hey, what's up guys? How you doing, buddy? Good. Good to see you, dude. Good to see you. Yep. What's going on? Just hash plant. Hash plant. The old Northwest favorites. I mean, I think something that people forget is that the Northwest specifically, like Washington state, is where HID lighting company came from. It's where some of the first hydroponics companies came from. Like the early 80s, this was the spot to grow weed because the climate is really good for having heat inside your house generally all year. Everybody's always like, oh, the humidity is so high up there. Well, if you know anything about relative humidity, air that's 45 degrees and 80% humidity and you bring that into like a 75 degree grow room and hit it with all that heat from all your equipment makes a perfect climate. Yeah, I bet. Humidity. So you always hear people, oh, there's mold or powdery mildew. I mean, I know tons of growers from up here. And powdery mildew never existed in anyone's garden until clones started coming up specifically from Ed Rosenthal's operation in the late 90s, early 2000s with the other lady's name that was running it. But they would like, I mean, they spread that shit worldwide. That's what you want to be known for. Centralized clone selling is really what has spread most problems everywhere. Absolutely. The dotting, the, you know, the, the viroids, the powdery mildews, bugs, all these various different types of things. When people were just getting clones from their buddy or a small group of friends, it kept most problems localized. Yeah. And it's when people start stopped maintaining their own mothers and we'll just like, oh, I'll fucking buy 200 cuts for my next run and started getting them from dispensaries and getting them from these centralized places. That's kind of when all these issues started spreading like crazy. It was because they'd get into a, a, a poorly run Ed Rosenthal situation or they'd get into a dark heart or whatever. And then they would just sell to thousands of people. Exactly. Well, let's talk some G 13. What you know, what you know. So he probably knows, but I will, I will say one more thing and then I'll shut up is that, you know, Neville says that he got it on this trip and Jorge confirmed it when we interviewed Bajornsson, right? That was like the one tidbit that we got. Was he, remember he said that the G 13 was actually called. The U. Yeah. The U. That's what his statement was. That was like literally in an hour and a half of talking. That was the one piece of weed history that he casually mentioned that like was, was any, but you know, it seems like it was one of those, like, like Fletch was saying, it was one of those things where they were collecting different clones that worked good indoors and trading them. Yeah. Right. Even up here, people were really reserved about sharing any kind of clones. That was true, you know, probably up until medical changed in like 2008 with Obama's whatever that, that announcement was where everybody basically started growing weed because it said the feds weren't going to fuck with you anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So before that, getting clones was hard. I mean, people, you know, everybody just, if you had weed, you never told anybody where it came from. So even if it was from your garden, I mean, there's plenty of people you'd buy weed from. You never knew they grew weed. Yeah. For sure. They just said their uncle got it or whoever. Yeah. And so, but the G, so what were we talking about? G13 or which one? G13. Let's do G13, U-dub, stuff like that. So U-dub and, well, G13, as far as I know, there's two, there's historically only two clones. Yeah. Airborne, which is from Ohio. And then there's Pacific, which is from out here, like West Seattle. Yeah. The Pacific was named Pacific because of the user Pacific on Cannabis World. Yeah. She, he, I can't remember. She was like in some band or, and I can't, she was some kind of, you know, modern shit of some sort. Yeah. Back then. But she had two different clones. I think that's how she liked to be referred to and was the U-dub purple or I think, didn't she call it U-dub purple, Matt? Yeah. U-dub black or purple. I don't know. People call it U-dub black now. She said shit that people made up out of nowhere. Yeah. The, the U-dub purple, I think was, and I think she would sometimes call it purple G13 up here. But that's like having been around here for a long time. I never saw the, the U-dub purple or purple that she had is the same as the purple indica, Tacoma perp family of plants that's well known up here in Washington, which is like how me and Caleb ended up becoming friends 20 years ago is because he had the oracle. I had the PI from up here. We knew that those were families of plants that were localized to our areas and we were trying to figure out, hey, are these things related? Are they similar? And me personally having now worked with the purple indica a lot and knowing its history up here, I mean, it wasn't even called purple indica when I got it up here. It was just an unknown clone that I received and I was just able to identify it as a plant from that family of purples. Yeah. Caleb and I, we got this other clone that we call the Tacoma that came from user stony puff and stuff on this world and that was a different clone but the same family of plants. I also had popped bag seeds in like 2002 of that from those bags of that same weed. I got plants, they were all almost identical to, you know, you could have passed any of them off as any of the purple weed that comes around up here. Yeah. That was kind of, that's kind of the same with urkel. You know, it's like you've got urkel. For sure. Great base. All that shit. 71, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. 20 different versions of the same essentially genotype. Expression. Yeah. Genotype, phenotype within a population or whatever. Yeah. So, and it's hard to say whether the chicken or the egg came from right. Yeah. Urkel come first or did a GDP? Which one came from which one? And unless you have, let's get the history of it, it's pretty loud. So, the G-13s, the airborne G-13 that I've seen is probably most definitely related to the lemon, aka lemon G-13 as it was also called. Okay. Both carry this trait and it's also a, I think it's a, I think it's a virus that transfers from it through seed from parent. Right? I don't have the actual data to support exactly that, but for example, the lemon peel that I have is like frost with I-99. That has a rat or virus. We have tested for that. Right? It's had it. Okay. I mean like after the second run from clone, it had it. And I've never, it doesn't transfer to any other strains at all except for lemon G hybrids. Weird. G-13. That is really weird. And so does the lemon G itself. What kind of virus is it, you know? Rat or virus. What is it? I'm sorry. Raspberry dwarf virus. Interesting. There you'd heard that. So anyways, my point is simply that there can even be, you know, stuff like that that can show you potentially a genetic relation. Yeah, for sure. But I mean, we've never sold pure lemon peel hybrids, you know, for the same... Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. I think, I think the, the airborne is the one that Pip showed us. Not so. The one that he was keeping his G-13 that he called Ohio G-13. And I think he had a similar theory that it was related to the lemon G. Well, he had the lemon, I mean, he rocked the lemon G like he monocropped it in that region for years too. He was really familiar with it. And I will say that, you know, one thing about the Pacific that makes me think that it's probably old is that it is really ugly. You know, it's not a pretty plant in my opinion. Which one? Sure. The Pacific, you know? Oh, yeah. You know, like, or Pip's very, like the, like, I mean, that's kind of like one of its things, right? Where it's like the G-13 was, like, when Neville would chat about it, like, you know, he said it was, it was kind of ugly, but it had crazy, you know, it added, it added a bunch of potency and a bunch of crystal. Yeah. Right. But by itself, it wasn't all that good. So when I did all those high times events and everything, you know, every once in a while you'd have someone come through that, and they were always old-timers, you know, like, these are more. And they would just come through and just tell you some information about a strain that you potentially have on your menu or have hybrids of. And this older lady, Kate, had come to my booth. I think it was either at Emerald Cup or one of the other high times events. And she told me, do you know what the Lemon G-13 is? And I said, well, I first had gotten it from Shrumi back in like 2005 or so. So I knew it was old. I knew it was from Ohio because he was in Pittsburgh. So it was from right across the border there. And the Lemon G was like, you know, it's a very distinct plant. You can't omit it for anything else. It smells, how it grows. It's kind of like just a really big plant with big buds, but kind of not the most resonant thing. Anyways, she said that it was the G-13, right, that's from out there, with a skunk misty from Sensi Seeds that hermied onto it. And that's what's that story. Yeah. And it makes perfect sense to me if you look at the plants, if you've ever grown, it does have skunk number one type growth characteristics of the Lemon G. That's where those long running colas came from. Exactly. If that's grown from Skunk number one from Amsterdam, you can get it directly. And then if you've grown the Airborne G-13, that weird wet, sour, bitter smell, brine, that's from the Airborne G. And so it's like, you can smell it between the Airborne and it's pretty obvious. And then, so like I was saying, between all those factors plus the dwarf virus that's self-contained to that specific family of plants, it's pretty identifiable. Yeah. I can't say for certain whether or not it's all 100% the same family. So that kind of covers the Airborne G-13. Right? Yeah. Most likely a clone from Ohio. I don't know any other history other than that. And most likely the parent to Lemon G as well. Yeah. That's what I know as well about it. I want to ask you, this is a little off topic, but since we touched it a little bit, what do you think on the purple Indica versus purple? I've grown enough, oh, that's what I was going to say earlier, I've grown enough PI hybrids that I've gotten urcal phenotypes from purple Indica hybrids. Wow. So it wouldn't surprise me in the least, especially considering how widespread that purple Indica clone or that family of clones was. I would bet money if you showed that purple Indica to Greg that he would immediately be able to identify it. Yeah. Just like every other guy I know that's been up in Seattle and northern Oregon for the last 30 years growing weed, almost every single one of them, you can pull it out immediately identifiable by them. I've never tried, I should. I'll see what he says. Yeah. What I'd like to do is go out there and bring him a bunch of samples and see if he can identify anything. You guys close. I mean, you guys are kind of close out there, yeah? I mean, relative. No. But you know what I'm saying, though, is that, like, who knows what kind of smells he could potentially identify as just being related to something just like I was talking about the lemon G and the G13. Yeah. And then the Pacific G13, I never saw anything but a couple samples of it, and it never was very impressive. Yeah. The UW purple, that purple family that we were just talking about, purple Indica, those are definitely not related to the Pacific G13. And then UW was just a name for any weed that came out of the University of Washington area of Seattle, which was, like, kind of where you would go buy weed off the streets. Yeah. You know, kind of like in Park and New York kind of deal. Yeah. Like, go down to the U District, and you could buy weed off the streets. And then you had, you know, between that, the glass blowers, which was a giant part that is often overlooked and lost over as if it wasn't an important part of it, but the glass blowing scene was a large part of the distribution network of clones around the country. Very much so. When I first got to Trinity and the snow, and a bunch of those things, that was all out of Eugene glass blowing circles. Exactly. It was all, that was one of the ways that hippies spread and communicated, and they were blowing pipes, and they had ends. Exactly. The dog shit, stain channels, try to think of other strains that were glass seen, the Superbill. I mean, there's a handful of strains up here that maybe haven't gotten any airtime, but the cough was super, travel everywhere through the glass blowing scene. I mean, the cough was like somebody just said the Quimby. That's another one, the Quimby. I heard of it. The Quimby is just another's from Oregon. It was one of those strains passed around those same circles. The green. That was one too. They even had their own four way, which wasn't like a four way from, was like a four way from Oregon. But they just called it the same thing. But it wasn't anything related to Neville's or anything from Europe. It was like Trinity by something, by something I can't remember. For sure. That was, that's my knowledge of G13. You know, it's somewhat anecdotal, but I've seen a lot of samples over the years. Hold on to say, people are saying we're not just here in facts, we're here in conjecture about G13. The reason for that is because the G13 is from the 80s, which is a long time ago, and the memories are old and some of them are legends. What we think we know for sure is that it came out of the Pacific Northwest. That's when it first popped up and friends of Jorge Cervantes gave it to Neville who took it to Europe and bred with it. I can add to it and the name supposedly came from the license plate as best as I've dug out. The license plates. And so it became traded so then it was bred in the Europe and then it was traded in the Pacific Northwest and it kind of became this legendary thing for the most part. Some of it is conjecture because you have all these things called G13, but what's their origin? One thing I'd like to mention is that when I first started growing G13 was not a really well known subject. The only thing was some interlap folklore about it and the fact that it was in the catalog back in the day. That was the only knowledge about it and no one really gave a shit at all about it until that movie American whatever came out. $1,000 out of the G13 on the American Beauty movie and everybody's like what's that G13 shit? Some shit came from the government. It's the same thing that happened with UW is like when I was buying weed UW was just a came from an area could be multiple different strains. It was like creepy or any of those other names. It was a single variety. And then once you had like the medical scene around here pop up and yet people trying to kind of stake their claim in the ground but didn't weren't really in the scene prior to that they're like I have the original UW like dude they're never even was like the fact that you're even trying to say you have the only UW is how I know you don't have it because because it doesn't this you're trying to stake a claim about something that was um that was just a name it wasn't specified to a variety. Yeah. Very much like Thunderfuck you know or even or even diesel. Yeah. Yeah. I mean my buddies who lived in New York in that era that was slang for dank weed right then was it that diesel you got that diesel I mean now it like means something much more specific. But it started off as just slang for good weed. Exactly. Exactly. And no Indian guy did not have anything to do with G13. People making up stuff. Um so it is while we have you here let's touch on another hash plant I know we've done this before but I don't think we've done it on the syndicate show HP 13. Um Yeah. I mean my only experience with it is that I went to those parties in Hawaii um back in the early 2000s and that was that's the same the Jason King Cannibal group of people and that was the only place I ever saw it and it was well known amongst their circle that it had come from New York City or from New York somewhere right um it's not from Hawaii it was brought there by it from my understanding a bunch of hippies. Okay and that's that's basically yeah I mean would you think about it I always deserve the height no well when I first and it was like jungle grown I was like oh hell no this shit right yeah and I think I got the clone later from from Caleb and um I grew it I like the Terps on it a lot but doesn't transfer to flavor well it itself um it's more one of those strains you can taste it because it smells so strong not because it converts to a really tasty flavor yeah and uh it's her me prone the lower bottoms on it always through sacks if you would have like leaks or anything like that and um it's pretty hard to breed with in my experience um but it has one of the more unique terpene profiles out so that's one thing Jason King was correct about is that the terp profile is unique yeah it's always a bummer to me when the terp profile is so strong and direct and then it doesn't translate into the smoke like bubblegum yeah like the version of bubblegum you know it smells sometimes the smell and the you know I mean that's the same thing true with hash too sometimes flavors on flour don't translate into any of the hash you make with it right yeah it's not that HP13 doesn't have a good flavor it's just like it's so strong you expect it promises to deliver more than it actually does because the smell is so potent on it right yeah um but what's what it one thing I've found with having run through so many seed plants over so many years is that there's this fine line between um there's like three different types of textures of wheat in my main textures there's really terpy stuff that's low in THC and it kind of has that soft silky feel to the resin it's not sticky it's not tacky and you can't wash with it at all right then you have like the other end of the spectrum which is like really high in THC but whatever terpenes are in it don't make it slick right it's just like alcohol and water you add enough alcohol to water and it won't freeze right so if you it most terpenes and and chemicals and everything else in it are like alcohol like compounds they have low yeah so when you mix that with THC you need enough THC to stabilize the terpenes or vice versa right so you have really terpy low THC it kind of has that soft feel and it sometimes the shit just doesn't translate to flavor no matter how terpy it is yeah they have this stuff that's like all THC but no terps and um and that shit washes like crazy but it always lacks in flavor and then you have stuff where it's really fucking terpy and it's really high in THC and it's that stick to the wall type shit and that's almost always the best wow to smoke is those that's like all the old elites that ended up testing between 18 and 24 percent THC or something and they just had that blend of terps and flavor and enough potency to get you there entourage your facts whatever you want it it was interesting for me seeing a bunch of holding a big library and then when testing first started happening and you started getting to see what your weed was like me realizing that like I mean I don't I don't know about I don't know about you flesh I don't really like most 30 percent plus strengths I kind of find a blank like the ones that work best for me like are somewhere in the in the low mid 20s most of the time I mean I don't taste really strong I don't even care about the potency of it and at the end of the day I mean that you know I used to have still have hundreds of jars available someone comes over and they can smoke through whatever and that purple indica only test like 15 to 18 percent on a good day and for 20 years no matter what everybody picked out of my pile jars to smoke they'd always say that was the most potent strain to them had the most narcotic effects so obviously THC isn't the only thing the other thing is there's hundreds of known cannabinoids we only test for like 10 of them maybe in biosays and we and we've just found like did you guys see that Italian research paper where they found that THC that's 30 times more potent than THC and they found the power so okay so if you have 1% of that that's the equivalent of 30% THC so if you have a power that's 20% THC and then have 100% of this secondary cannabinoid that we currently don't test for THCP if that's what it is that might feel like it's 50% right because you've got 30% with that extra potent stuff it's like you know it's like heroin and fentanyl yeah it is so fanny yeah absolutely and for people asking this will be up on YouTube after we're going to try to have it up in audio as well later on so that's I mean that's kind of a tangent but it's basically in my opinion there's absolutely no way you know to tell like how well weed is going to work on someone by the available testing that we commonly do today you can get a general sense of low or high THC and you can get some terpenes and you can learn some things from it but it's not comprehensive enough by any means to tell you why it works the way that it does yeah I mean you're talking about we're only testing for 5% or 10% of the potential cannabinoids most of which the other cannabinoids know what they do still and then you're talking about we test for a small portion of the terpenes and thiols that everything else produces so it's like we're going to start making assumptions with 10% of the data yeah that's bad assumptions about the plants with 10% of the data that's pretty useless science right there it's almost like phylos creating a whole system on it telling you you could have genetic relation with about the same it's also quite possible that we put the most importance on THC simply because it's the oldest compound we know of that relates to marijuana and so we've just all been preconditioned to accept that that's the big macro no you know why we're precondition is because that's the compound they made illegal yeah that's the one that was the most important compound and at the end of the day it's probably not that's kind of what my whole point we could we could know 15 or 20 years from now that this combination of cannabinoids or whatever is actually way more important to like this specific feeling than any number on that level exactly you know so and now all these people breeding for 32% THC with no turps and still smokes like fucking smoke and gravel yeah and it's all because we're using a testing system to sell stuff to consumers that isn't even in their best interest you know Fletch you said something the other day and I know it didn't like a lot of people found it controversial but I thought I could relate to it very well and you made a comment that you are done with regular seeds and it's on-defend seeds can you like extrapolate on that a little bit so people understand what you were actually saying saying I'm just making jokes most of the time I know but it's relevant right people take this shit way too seriously but I mean you know the people that always have the most to say are typically the people that are offended by it the most and what are you offended well maybe they're not so proud of what they're doing I don't know I just related to it so much trying to sell regular seeds in this market right now is very very difficult there's not as much of I don't even know if there is a big market left for regular seeds at the moment no I mean people aren't particularly especially with the compression and pricing people are not concerned with doing things the right way they're concerned with how they're going to pay their bills and make it to the next crop or keep the lights on at their facility or whatever and I mean that's why you got people that are like you know they got a thousand lights they don't know what to do with any of the product and their choices at that point are I'm going to partner with someone that's going to run the thing and sell it all for me or I'm going to start hitting up people that work at nurseries of other businesses tell their nursery employee hey I'll give you 50 grand to buy a clone from whoever right and then trying to undercut their market and it's like look you're never going to create a market for yourself by always just picking up the scraps of somebody else's that's a fact man it's a fact so you know what's the point of picking up someone else's scraps it's like you should be working on your own stuff because then you can then you can have enough burn rate on whatever that product is for yourself that you can take advantage of that and be proud of what you're doing and you know that shit won't offend you anymore that's a fact man one thing I've learned too is that all these dudes that like to knock stuff off that's what they do for a living it's all going to come to a screeching halt when a lot of the people that are producing unique shit are no longer doing it you know once those people are removed from the equation then who's going to make the unique shit no one that's cut off they're done you know exactly it's like what's the what's the point and all just chopping each other's legs off when we could all just be producing something only a generation or two removed but is now yeah because you did your work and found something cool um now the market's bigger instead of smaller right yeah all if you guys want to survive you better work on making the market bigger for everybody that's in it not smaller yeah it kind of reminds me of like the just like the the human nature aspect of all this shit you know because there's a part of it too where you know you think about it like in music or something like that when there's like something you know people come out and they just create something and then that creates a demand for it and then there's a whole bunch of other musicians who follow in their footsteps because it's easier than creating their own thing now there's like a heavy metal genre there's like a gangster rap genre there's like there's an era where like it's not named people are just doing shit right and so what's happened with the with the named you know strain game basically is that rather than people breeding a bunch of weed that they like and trying to get more weed that they like they're like oh fuck this thing from archive or matter whoever is is blowing up right now I'm going to cross everything to dosido I'm going to cross everything to Skittles I'm going to cross everything to Cushman's I'm going to cross everything to because it's popular and they're trying to put their own flavor on it but it's not like it just happens in weed that happens anywhere where there's opportunity you know and you know the other thing I was thinking of when you guys were talking about the breeding aspect was that even talking about seeds today when you know when Neville was on Mr. nice or whatever he used to talk about people would all the time bitch that they wanted all these pure indica hybrids yeah but if they didn't yield through the roof and they weren't amazing in every way they bitch up a storm and so he was constantly thinking about like what he could release and what the public would accept yeah so it made me think that even today right now we got there's a difference between what the public says it wants and then where its money talks in terms of buying seeds because it says it wants a lot of stuff that it doesn't really support exactly exactly right I think it's the price compression like everybody's looking for everyone wants something different but they all want to sell have the same sale strategy purple frosty and want to sell 100 pack they're not everybody I mean there are companies that are phenomining they're working on providing unique varieties to their business regardless of whether or not it's a hype strain and they're in all markets I mean there's you know there's a good amount of those companies that are working on it now but the problem becomes depending on how big their business is the most productive varieties typically aren't the dankest and if you're selling to a wholesale only market and aren't vertically integrated it's really hard to grow a two pound variety instead of a three pound variety or whatever the difference is and just like fruits and vegetables the big old monster tomatoes typically are the ones that taste like water yeah for sure I mean that's like one of Caleb and I's running jokes dude is that the shitty little thing in the corner that you thought about killing ends up being the clear winner in the smoke test always and you're like why is that retarded runt over there like why is that one head and shoulders above all these beautiful producing structure amazing dense buds all over it and this stressed out little thing here that almost died that's the one that everyone wants to smoke I think it's a I think the the smoke ability of a strain is a combination of two things in my opinion it's the type of and how much resin there is on the plant material then there is how the plant material smokes itself and those are two completely different things yeah that's why people like hash is because you get rid all the plant materials and now the shit that like has good turps or good trichomes on it but shitty plant material you can smoke it now strawberry banana like man the flower is completely nothing to write home about but yeah make some fresh frozen hash with it it's great it's awesome yeah you know banana smoothie so there you know there's a purpose for that but when you start talking about like mass versus trichomes if you increase the mass but there's only the same amount of trichomes inevitably probably going to continue to taste worse so whatever has the least amount of mass that smokes poorly of flower material with the highest concentration of resin good tasty resin is probably going to be your best week so to me it's just a trichome concentration versus plant mass that's interesting yeah I look at it a little differently because I talk about burnability all the time right because that's really important to me but I think that there's like an air to bud ratio you know like I mean obviously some things you put them on you know you put them on and the thing is huge but it weighs 3 grams other thing you put it on and it's the same it's the same size and it weighs 8 you know so I think like how dense things are like one of the things I like about diesels is it kind of has all those like nooks and crannies and crevices and different things the way the bud forms so it's like it's not that dense right and then I think that makes it that's what I was saying is the amount of trichomes versus the mass of the plant material the plant material yeah and it seems like that stuff washes better because there's more surface area where like the super thick stuff you almost have to chop it up into little bits to get it to wash well because there's only so much exposed exactly how much you get on x amount of mass of flour and it's things like Bubba right it's like you know Bubba doesn't have a lot of surface area to put because it's so dense with plant material yeah and why does it test low and why does one little nudge like this turn into like a joint that's fucking that fat that's why because it has a lot of plant material mass yeah I mean there was there was an aspect too where I used to have this I used to have this judge of whether I thought things were like perfect density to me like when I was breeding stuff a bunch was could I break it off in the dark and put it into a pipe and smoke it effectively and if and if you can't do that without like the snow used to be like that like you almost needed scissors or a grinder you know if you just broke off a big chunk and shoved it into a bowl or a bong or something like that it would barely burn those are dense prohibition selection standards in the dark and you know cookies cookies can be like that too it can be too dense yeah for sure it breeds a certain density what have you been focusing on and on your projects lately like is there anything you're stoked about anything you're working with lately that you're like fuck this is so unique and so different I'm going to work on this for a few years anything like that currently going on I mean man I'm just always just selecting through plants I mean I just popped like another 500 seeds the other day for me it's I just want to find new shit all the time I mean shit half the time all like I just went to California and went to all these big grows and everything and met up with everybody except me well everybody everything is on schedule but the like the one that I wasn't really particularly impressed with was the one that all the biggest growers all said hey can I get a clone what's up with that one I want to I need to make this one a strain or whatever right and it's like well I didn't even think that was that out of all the stuff I brought that's not my personal favorite you know so for me it's like I never really know what's fucking I just try to grow really good weeds and shit that I think is unique and taste really good and has that the right ratios everything we were just talking about and man everybody I let everybody else decide what's really unique to them because if you told me you know 10 years that papaya would be unique to people I tell you you're fucking crazy right that's the most run of the mill shit on the fucking planet at that time right but so only 10 years later you know Dutch skunk number one fruit terps is unique because everyone grows only gelato so yeah yeah if you had told me skunk one would have had a come back I would never in a million years have believed that exactly I mean there was a time you know in Mendo where you couldn't give a calio pound away yeah and then you know and then the nails got invented and people started dabbing and tanji became popular but I couldn't believe tanji when it when it hit I was like what are we redoing calio again what the fuck's going on here right but we forget that you know the majority of the smoking population is 18 to 28 years old so after most people turn 28 they get kids family they smoke less they're not involved and that shit whatever was old to the people that just quit smoking is brand new to the next generation I mean we had a like a 15 year downturn for perps and then it came back with a vengeance yeah totally with a vengeance there was an era a long time ago when everything purple went like crazy and then that wasn't the case for decade and a half or something and then it came back and all of a sudden you know you hear that like very 2005 statement you know like I don't know if this is purple enough could this be darker you see people extending the periods for these strains now by like adding two novel things together so you got like some kind of cookies and it's like just tangy but it's purple like the blackberry right and it's like and then people are like excited about it again you know Mendo perp same thing you know it's like people get tired of it when it's just the Mendo perp but you know call it forbidden fruit and now it's the hot shit and now it's yeah I mean I it's crazy what's crazy about the forbidden fruit is that when citrus is strong it's like one of the most it can breed one of the most dominant turps at times for sure and then it's often a one or two note turk where it's like you don't get other sense it's like when it's citrus it's just like pop it's citrus and that forbidden fruit is really weird because it smells just like it's like a one note purple it's a pretty plant super pretty super pretty and like and all that and you know but yeah it's it just it smells like if you like orange citrus and that's it I think here's an important thing to I think what we're talking about is really a product of the how easily information is spread nowadays because like you were talking about before how plant diseases were isolated to small groups of people if at all because people didn't really share plants the same thing was true with the selling part of weed 20 years ago as well is I don't know what the fuck people were smoking in Georgia or Tennessee right I just know what I can buy around me that's it so I didn't have this preconception that I can get some purple weed that smells like orange there was not choices like that everybody just basically created their own standards of quality and preference and those were localized to even just small groups of people right and I think that's why we had so many unique strains that were able to survive prohibition is because the whole market wasn't gelato or whatever because no one had a big enough grow to do that no one knew about a strain enough to do all that shit so you know every so like strains like HP 13 survived because that was the best weed that a whole group of people in the country could get and they demanded that product so that clone survived and that you know that was one of the benefits of prohibition is that it actually did help keep some of diversity alive because you have these independent markets that weren't affected from external sort of external input and now we have the opposite where everyone is so influenced by external input that almost no one keeps anything unique around anymore at all and the customer doesn't even know that they want it because it's not even available in the marketplace oh I mean that's something I trip on all the time is because like California like in some degree like or where I live might be considered kind of like a you know the forefront of certain things good and bad and one of the bad things was like the whole like named clone craze that took off where you know first it was purples and it was cushes and sours and you know but what that meant is that people kept dropping stuff and we talked earlier in the show about how that G 13 cut probably survived in Ohio because like you you you grow weed in these areas where it's good enough weed that it always sells and there's not pressure to change so they keep these favorites Ohio is are they even legal yet or no now exactly what I just meant like anywhere anywhere that doesn't fit like California pressure I mean I'll tell you so to me the first real craze was the purple craze and Mendo before that people just grew good weed and then it all sold right and then when the purple craze hit and it became about the Mendo P or the Urkel or the GDP or you know this half a dozen different purple strains there would be people that would come up from the bay and they will like I will buy every gram of this weed that I can find yeah and so that created this pressure where all these different growers were like well why do I want to grow this other shit I'm just going to turn this 40 lights or whatever into the Urkel and boom it out because these people are going to cash me out even for my odd pound of course yeah and so with every time that happens diversity gets fucked yeah and then you fast forward right fast forward 15 years from then and when the purple craze hit everybody starts hitting up like the six people that kept purple you know like everyone I knew had an Urkel or great or GDP or Mendo P cut oh yeah you know there was an era after that where like every single farmer I knew indoor and outdoor ran some sourdies but if it's not if it's not with the easiest thing to sell then they drop it you guys feel like we're in that stage right now currently with anything we're a bunch of shits getting dropped yeah I mean I'll tell you something crazy dude I had a buddy from Sohum hit me up and say that a bunch of brokers were starting to talk about wanting sour diesel this year and they couldn't they couldn't find clones of sour diesel and Sohum weird that is weird because it been three four years and everybody's been growing gelato and weird hybrids of gelato and these weird purple crosses and jealousy and you know that was the only thing that people wanted to pay for yeah it makes sense you wouldn't think sour would get pushed out but it doesn't take that long all it takes is a few seasons or one season of your broker telling you I don't want it and you're going to find something that they do want you know or they tell you oh I'll buy that but it's going to be this but if you had this I'd pay you this much more yeah they're going to go that Rob yeah definitely doesn't have the cookies appeal it all just isn't you know but it's like but everyone had sour it's just it's a global of the marketplace right you know it really it's a nationalization but California supplying is globally at this point now and um so it's just like you know kind of when you travel the world nowadays right it's like it's a lot it's not nearly as culturally diverse especially in the touristy areas that 20 years ago or in particularly 40 years ago not that I ever experienced that but um it's just where we have this information is disseminated so quickly nowadays that it's um that we're losing a lot of diversity on the planet for a lot of reasons and with cannabis particularly because it was prohibited by the governments we have probably the very last agricultural crop that had its own free independent economy and distribution system for a multi-billion dollar planet plant per year in value with absolutely zero government intervention and policies that would dictate how and why people would operate their business and now move to the whole opposite with that with globalization and nationalization with one exception to that they didn't have any control over how we set it up except for things they did would make us adapt to not encounter them so all the shipping methods all the various aspects of the business was to work around government intervention of any kind so they didn't really they didn't really dictate to us but they did influence how we responded in a way but because of that we had a much more diverse scene because everybody figured out a different way to manipulate the system to their advantage so to speak it really was Adam Smith and the invisible hand you guys familiar with that no Adam Smith when he wrote about capitalism it's like a super famous thing that he did but he wrote about basically real capitalism is like there's an invisible hand that takes the goods from where they are and pulls them to where they're wanted to be bought like there's a system that will get set up if there's a demand in some place and there's margin and profit to be made a system will be set up by people to get that profit and to bring the goods to where the people want to be and that's essentially what happened with we that's how we got spread all over America when it was totally illegal was the invisible hand divvied it up exactly the invisible hand is just no government no government making any rules it's interesting that in California especially they made a whole bunch of rules and they crashed the very successful system within five years that's exactly what we were getting at if you let the government get involved in anything they will ruin it the general rule of thumb they won war that we've waged in the last 50 years in this country where we won it whether it was a foreign war or a domestic war the war on drugs, shit drugs are more available and more plenty we don't win any wars war on homelessness, we don't win anything I'm not sure if they're meant to be won I really don't know there's no profit in solutions yeah exactly that's what I mean it's fucked up but there's no profit in collapsing an agricultural commodity that you're the one taxing like the funny part is the government's so bad at their job that they're the only ones that make money without having to spend any in this real business you know right other than just enforcing the rules that get written but they're taking in what a third of the income and the whole state are more in most of these cases and the biggest loser is them by collapsing the system around themselves because if the price of weed goes to basically non-profitable and I mean look I've talked about this for a long ass time without subsidies and or farmers unions farming in America doesn't exist you've been doom and gloom forever about it I agree yes but we're here now he's been talking about subsidies and collapsing markets and what happens with industrialization and all that for quite some time but here's the biggest benefit is because there's no union and no subsidies to get this to survive that the consumption of weeds is going to continue so a lot of people are just there's nothing to save these big corporations and these big investment firms they're in business there's nothing to save them right in the right scenario depending on how much it ends up costing a lot of these big businesses to operate and how the consumers perception and demands may change small farms might be the ones that come out winning because there isn't as we're seeing now in California and as the as every state gets its own supply set up and there's not this distribution network this demand from all over the world for export products yeah we're growing way more weed than people need to smoke so all it takes is the consumer demanding a little bit higher quality product and the consumption amount or the amount of players being too many or the amount of consumption that's occurring and the only things that may be profitable is small businesses did you guys not to interrupt did you guys see that thing in Canada where they destroyed hundreds of tons of unused weed they burned it because of overproduction and they couldn't pump it through the system and it aged out and turned brown and you know they had all these huge green houses and they did this big power play there's an aspect it's interesting that you say that dude because there is definitely a bunch of people that are trying to get into the industry by just having a better burn rate than small farmers what they're hoping to do is bleed everybody out be able to survive longer because they have more capital and then take over the bones and they end up with a bunch of market share yeah but what homie is saying is that they could actually bleed out beyond where they're willing to bleed exactly and if the price spike doesn't happen after that to like be able to recover they're lost because what they're trying to do is they're willing to lose money now but they're planning on making more later the plan is not to just light a huge pile of money on fire and watch it burn no exactly exactly but their problem is that now that people are growing weed more easily everywhere right and more quantity of it like i mean oklahoma has intercepted pick six the whole game from california in a lot of ways and that's going to continue to happen with every new state that comes online it becomes easy to grow more earth so like you know companies like truly even florida well you've got companies like jungle boys and everybody else that can come in and take their lunch from them from a business operations standpoint and quality perspective and then you've got the little small grower chipping away at you too so i mean like the market may not sustain their billion dollar aspirations that you may not be able to be that big and we're seeing that in washington already the biggest growers in washington are shutting down two thousand light operations and two hundred dollar packaged pounds wreck right thousand light grows that bring in buyers from out of state buy it from the from the license place that they deposit cash and the state knows about it and it's like the supply there's so many operations to supply the demand now i don't think there is like a rosy outcome for them to keep down the road so they might just be lighting tens of millions of dollars on fire well if they can't find more money to keep sustaining their money losing operations it's they're done for anyways i mean you know canopy grows shut down there what did they spend two hundred and thirty million dollars on a greenhouse in medicine hat they sold it for thirty five million recently just to keep the lights on i mean like you know you can't run a business like that flow conna up by me they raised a hundred and seventy five million bucks and they pretty much blew it right so where's the crown gonna come from when the economics looks the way it does now and you know and there's another aspect of it too and you know we were chatting about this i can't remember it was last week or the week before but like it is this weird thing because since cannabis is legal in some spots and illegal in others right and the line between the two is super murky there's all this there's all this stuff happening you know where most of the companies in california surviving by backdooring absolutely you know that's how they're surviving and then on top of that like you know when the hemp when the hemp implosion happened in two thousand eighteen uh... up in his neck of the woods in southern oregon and all those areas those places started growing at a level never before seen and there's all these there's all these criminal groups and cartels that started doing things on a scale that had never been seen before and daring the authorities to come catch them right and so there's massive amounts of weed that are being grown i've read in places that uh... you know Mexican import is down seventy five percent from from the good days for them right and they are going into all kinds of different businesses to make up that lost revenue right and they're going to oklahoma and they're going to Oregon and they're going to the desert in california and they're setting up these huge depths and shops trying to make money so it's like a total free-for-all in that sense it's like the level of overproduction is insane well everybody thinks that it's going to get better and it's like for just every person that's quitting right now there's another person doubling up their garden right yeah there's another glass house putting up another five million square feet this isn't going to get that much better you have to identify your own market and then supply that market whatever it is that you do whether it's edibles vape pens these cards rosin pick your pick your thing maybe it's all of them it doesn't really matter but the market can only sustain so much of that right before you start basically eating into your own profits with your overproduction so like I said as more people become operational more good operators come in more good black market operators continue producing more states um maybe it fizzles out for them you know who knows maybe it just can't sustain this ties of business that they want like these people spent three hundred million dollars building this big grow because they were planning on doing a billion dollars a year in sales but they only got to 150 million a year in sales they're not really pretty cool right so um I think that's going to be the reality for a lot of these big businesses and then if you get these really big overproduction situations like you have right now um you're going to see people shutting lights off but the thing is is like as soon as the the um like all right let's say you have a 2000 light operation and you're going to shut it down for the time being because you have two of these let's say you shut one down and you're like well we'll just wait till the price goes back up well what happens when the price goes back up you flip the lights back on fill it with plants and a year later the price is back where it was again yeah this is you know ag economics you know this is just how it goes and so the real question is how much COVID cash did we spend on grows that don't need to exist and if that's really big which I think it is this overproduction will continue for quite some time I would think I mean really it's two giants with a bunch of good weed growers getting smashed in the middle in my opinion because it's like all the like the two giants are like the all the huge black market things that have set up by the various groups and then the other giant is all the backdoor legal weed that happens and the reason why legal is so pissed that the black market is because for the first two three years they were dumping all their excess product in the black easy and that was their cash flow and now now they're getting cut off by these enormous scenes and they're pissed off about it and it's taking their price and it's making their life harder but you know so they want all the black to be shut down but they only want the black to be shut down so they could resupply the black they just lost market share they don't care about the white or black sales they just want market share they just need market share wherever they're going to get it from well they define what's white and what's black so I mean they're not hiring the lobbyists or going to be hiring the lobbyists so they don't mind what's white and black anyways I worked on some big farms down in Southern California for a couple of years and one of the things that the sales guy did that was pretty trippy is he went and he looked at a bunch of the data for all of the dispensaries and he was pretty much like you know this farm that we have down here it could probably supply like 80 or 90% of the volume needed and he was like kind of from the the real world so he was kind of tripping out by this number because he didn't know all the various nuances that we know but he was just looking at it and he was thinking about all the other bigger farms than us and all the indoors and all the depths and all the everything else and he was like well how is this working the only way that the white market can survive is if like 80% of them fail if they actually have to sell within the state of California only in no backdoor exactly. Yeah. And then the goal would be instead of like two or three huge companies that suck that percentage would be a bunch of bomb small growers that could actually give consumers what they want. Well that's what I'm getting at is that the market actually shrinks back to the size that that's actually sustainable for the state of California not including the export market. Most of these big grows are too big for that. Like they just can't get enough revenue to sustain the business model so they have two choices. They either just shut off a bunch of operations and keep their 200 million a year or whatever it is they could get or and they just hope they can hold on to that from little guys that keep chopping at their bottom line or at the top line. So you know this may go back the other direction and people don't realize that and I think if people focus on quality expanding their market instead of chopping off your fellow farmer's market the black market operators or backdoor operators or whoever you are you're going to continue to see growth in your space regardless. That's my opinion. I could even say 20 years ago the people that I knew that were running 50 and 100 lighters that were really good at their job they still bought their head stash from 4 to 10 to 12 lighters because there's just something about like a smaller space that only you know like you can there's like nobody agrees where craft ends right? Nobody agrees when it's like it's just a little too big to be called craft but everybody agrees that the bigger it gets the harder it becomes to manage perfect weed. A guy that like works on his four lighter after work and is in love with it and spends a couple hours in there every night making it just exactly perfect he probably has fire. Well I think as these as this profit margin continues to shrink and then you got these big monster grows I think you're going to continue to find it's going to be continued to be difficult for these big businesses to find employees that want to do that shit too. And then you have a lot of skilled workers from in this marketplace. And my buddy dude he jokes that like it's like a fucking factory job. It is and you're in there and the lights are on and the fans are running and the decibels are loud and you honestly should have like protective glasses and some and some that you know and some ear muffs and some good team. It's actually pretty fun because now you don't have to man it you just being that guy that's playing the the he's got the whole contraption on the plane like that. Like that what the run in operating the whole business itself is that and for some people that's the right way to do it. And if you want to control your product in your market and your marketplace that's how you do it. But these big monster grows especially when the ownership has no solar passion for the plant and doesn't have a fun ship for their employees to do in it. Yeah. I don't think you're going to find a lot of people that want to continue to do that job long term. Yeah. I mean there's there's an aspect to where and I want to say it before I forget but when he was talking about quality the other thing that I would say that is actually going to lead to like the next generation of like real elites is if people want to breed it because that's going to change soon anyway start breeding weed that you personally think is fire. Try to find weed that you and your friends love to smoke and you love the buzz and you love things about it grow better weed for yourself. The chances of that weed becoming popular is way better than you trying to create something that you think will be popular. Grow weed you like breed like my only business card and everybody that knows me is a box of jars that's what I show up with. But a box of jars right and then you can because I can tell you pretty much everything about a grower from a box of jars. Yeah you could you should be able to you know and there and there's an aspect to where it's it's I mean we haven't even talked about like if it went federally legal like the international market and how that would play into all this different stuff you know because in each new and each new state that goes legal there's a bunch of investment money hoping to like dominate make a bunch of money back and it's kind of been swinging around the country right now it's in New York and New Jersey because those are huge places that are coming online and all these people are super excited about trying to you know do that. You know Washington where he he's up you know Washington and Oregon we're ahead of California and we didn't really learn any lessons. No we just we just would shit the bed right away or just like oh let's just make a bunch of terrible rules right away destined for failure. But I mean that's that may only make sense for California with how we do stuff so. Yeah I mean it's hard I will say in all honesty it's hard because like he said this is it's agricultural which has its own weird shit to it right and it's a multi multi multi billion dollar industry already yeah it's not like they get to create the industry from the ground up and like tinker with it they're trying to bring this huge thing into the light and they have no idea how to do it what what what other thing have they ever done that way. Yeah that's a good point. What have they ever done you know that's why that's why some of this money is so excited they're like what do you mean there's 8 million pot smokers in my state already yeah that's a huge customer base most things you you make that are brand new you have to build popularity oh yeah weed is super fucking popular like it's already popular so and no one controls it so it's all tempting for the money to be like I want to control that for sure yeah you know and I agree rings yeah I think Colorado probably was falling out for Cali yeah Oregon too I mean I was just like I've been going through having to delete all my old photos to keep my shit from getting my account deleted and everything yeah and like man I was I was like seeing memes I was making in like 2017-18 when everybody was talking about the skies falling and shit in Oregon I mean yeah this is just reality for an agricultural crop and if you're not prepared for it and for being flexible with how you're going to operate your business it's not going to be it's not going to be a good time you know yeah one thing I will say too and I never really thought that I would see this but there's an aspect where like maybe for the first time like being an actual weed nerd who really loves it as an advantage because then at least you get to love what you're doing where a lot of people got into this because it was easy or because it was money or because there was a big margin or because you know it allowed them travel freedom or whatever and as it gets harder and harder they don't actually like doing what they're doing so they get a lot more frustrated as the market changes yeah this is just another job you know it's yeah it's just you know and they used to make a lot more for a lot less effort and now they're making a lot less for a lot more effort you know where and there's not there's an aspect that I see in Mendo all the time you probably see it up there too in Oregon you know where it's like a bunch of people that didn't really care about weed but learned enough to make money and run some big it and make good money for 20 years now that it's going legal they think they have this like lifetime of knowledge about weed but they really farmed most of it out and they were in it for loot and so they're really not that talented at what they do they really don't have the same knowledge base as like people that were nerdy about weed and kept wanting to learn about what they were into yeah of course so there's an aspect out there were for you know like being being like into weed helps because it's going to get rough yeah it's going to get rough the combo did go sideways but sometimes that's what's cool about it I mean we could have talked about hash plants for the last hour I suppose in sequential order you know I mean man who fucking cares yeah I enjoyed it fucking joints here what the fuck do you guys want yeah what are you fucking bothering us for I mean to bring it back to hash plants or whatever probably in the probably in the last five or six years as people started measuring returns on on plants people started making hash seriously for the first time in America on a commercial scale and trying to figure out what cultivars and actually breeding for hash which really wasn't done in the 80s 90s 2000s right nobody really people were breeding for flower for the most part you know people weren't breeding for hash I can't imagine well which is you know arguably some of the tastiest hash for sure yeah they didn't have the gear I mean Americans like it easy we don't have like a village that we can just be like alright for the next 12 hours all you families you're like bashing weed over a screen with no with no mask you watch some of those you watch some of those videos of what those guys do and I don't know how they don't have an allergy attack like every day of their life because they're just in a fucking hug oh yeah they be all shit feed allergies moved out and did something different they had to leave these are desensitized people because it's just a dust cloud you're working in all day long exactly if you can't deal with you're living in Morocco but the same thing is true too where it's like there's a big push where like a lot of popular hash strains they probably get popular because they yield great not because they're the best higher flavor yeah there's always that pressure too there's the money versus quality pressure I mean scum number one was one of the best hash plants for me ever right scum number one and it's hybrids from Amsterdam why because Sam bred the shit for making hash right as a resin farmer yeah you know like he made the money that he made by breeding a plant for 97% THC in the trichome head and then selling that as technology to GW Pharmaceuticals like that's his claim to fame right there and he's like the only one that's done that even and he did that shit back in the 90s I mean you know that it's an impressive feat regardless and nothing every breeder should be surprised with but made a lot of you know the netter hash and everything else that became popular and now is the water hash market I mean we were talking we were talking to Kamera a while ago and he was talking about how he's never even seen Sam smoke flower that he you know he breed he's a resin that's what he called him he's a resin farmer yeah I don't think he does he likes to breed for resin that's what he's after that's what he's interested in that's what he cares about you know that's pretty dope bubble man doesn't smoke flower either it's kind of the same mentality not interesting but you know I consider sour diesel in the diesel family to basically be like America's modern skunk you know a very skunkoid you know type you know plant type aromas all that it's a little different it's definitely not skunk one but it's definitely like it's in that family yeah it's modern skunk I mean even just Kim family stuff in general is I would almost say is pretty you know big tall running colas on a lot of the hybrids a little bit longer flowering hybrid plant and you know synonymous with you know good quality and commercial production yeah only women and slaves smoke flower that's one of my favorite quotes ever it is it's a really funny quote it's a really funny so it's a funny story I guess when sam skunk man was in Afghanistan looking for seeds he asked some of the muhajideen for flower because he wanted the seeds and the guy looked at him and was like only women and slaves smoke flower and he was basically like are you a woman or a slave and he had to explain that he wanted the seeds from the flower he had no interest in the flower to smoke but he wanted to make his own hash at home and he wanted the seeds and that made sense to the dude but he was literally like women and slaves smoke flower so he handed him a pair of chains I mean hopefully they're very different for sure well it's an unprocessed product you know and shit if you just if you just grow a field of seed plants and randomly pick a flower to smoke it's probably not the greatest experience no especially if the flower wasn't ever bred for smoke exactly one of the things about sativas is at least the breeding for the flower itself to be smoked I mean one thing I find interesting that everybody you always see the comment it's kind of a a misconception in cannabis breeding is that oh just go back to land race and it'll fix whatever problem someone's talking about all of these things are for me nowadays because of this and this and that you should just go back back to the land race and it's like if you've ever grown lots of land race varieties sativa indica everything in between I've grown tons of seeds from all over the world and guaranteed the vast majority of them have equal or higher amounts of hermaphroditism like you know plants when you grow them from seed and the flower seed list but it has those little tiny black like endos it's like all these little black specks on the table right I've looked at them under a microscope it sounds like you have spider mites in your flower but it's tiny those are really common do you know the rosters pick those out tiny trichome heads or tiny trichome heads and tiny calyxes I mean or bracts it's like the majority of what's in the populations is those type of plants now the residents can be really nice a lot of them it smells good as really greasy as potent when you smoke it but the flower itself is just not desirable has lots of growth problems as well yeah land race is like whipping yourself it's definitely setting it's pain it's turning back the clock if you think that's the way to fix a population or something like that it's basically you assuming that hey I'm going to turn back the clock 50 years and I'm going to do this myself from scratch and do a better job than all the people that have done it between me and now we're just like that there was a decent population of plants for all of us to start with in the first place and it's like the goal is to at least give us some of the best hybrid and select for plants that will continue to increase that quality so that the next person that does that that again will continue to improve the population better than you did and that's inadvertently how we've gotten to where we are with all the all the accidental feminized pollination that gives us our main thing else for the most part we've gotten this question a few times so I'll ask it what's up with your Malawi, what's the sourcing on that that came from the glass scene up here in Washington but by way of Oregon very cool I don't know anything about who popped the seeds or how it got here or anything super super landrace-y it's like obsolete used it I think Caleb had it at one point shot 707 Seed Bank had it for sure and ran it after years from back in the day it was one of those plants that had a really strong hazy aroma when you smoke the flower interesting somebody said more like Eugene Gold what's that I don't know when they were talking about Malawi maybe that was another name someone called it mm-hmm well we talked earlier about the weird Instagram stuff and everything that's been going on one thing we're trying to put together that I was going to talk about tonight real quick before we're done is that we're trying to put together to make it social I think Fletch you saw Flanbell's social thing he was trying to put together we're going to use that similar type platform so we can have a nerd IG for us so we'll figure it out but I wanted to at least get that out there today so people have an idea to look for it for sure anything you're dropping seeing Fletch maybe I don't know but I'm not going to plug shit on here we're just talking weed that's cool as fuck dude yeah not so no I mean we obviously had a pretty wide ranging conversation sometimes it's good I had a Malawi I don't know if it's the same one how long did years take forever to finish it was like 80-90 days probably yeah I had this one and I never could get it to I needed to like dep it starting in June you know and I never did that and I grew it inside a few times and it took twice as long as everything else that's the hard part about having sativas is you kind of need their own unique space for their life cycle yeah because otherwise you can't like clean and reset and read it you know you just got this like okay now I have three plants that are fucking forever in a day from being done you know yeah cool check out readersink at patreon go to google type it in come hang out with us on discord we shoot the shit all the time and thanks a lot thanks for coming and hanging out it's always a pleasure to it was super cool everybody enjoy your Friday night cheers