 Good afternoon and welcome back to the touchline on Y25 for Maxwell Vasika. It's my name. This time round we want to speak about a very interesting conversation with a special person in sports development in the country. The game that has showed massive potential. Among Kenyan athletes across various sporting disciplines, I'm talking about Rafael Lobonyo. Of course also Robert is still here with us. He has not vanished and good to see you all again. I thought you disappeared. No, since Shabana got promoted to FKF Premier League you've been overexcited lately. Ya, we have to renovate him. Ya, we are still celebrating. Good to see you Rafael. How are you doing? I'm doing very well and it's a pleasure to be on the show. You're keeping well? I'm doing very, very well. I can't complain. You see when I was coming to the show in the morning I have a friend of mine who keeps inquiring about how my running order looks like. So I told him I'm interviewing you and he was a bit surprised. When I questioned him why, he said he knows you very well far away from sports. How many hearts do you have? I mean I'm not a sportsman per se but all of us can contribute to sports development in different ways and so what I try to do is to support sports and people who are in sports both in terms of advocating for better policies to ensure sports development but also motivating and supporting sportsmen and women. So that's how I'm involved in sports. So I'm not signing for Manchester United or any of those teams. Ya. And it was a good guess in the midweek you getting to award Kenyan training sensation Angelo Kutoyi and even Filemono Tienogorma captain after them winning 20th Premier League title. What informed you of this move? First of all is my engagement in youth development. I strongly believe that we cannot succeed as a country unless we invest in the most important asset that we have and that is young people. So generally that's my motivation and inspiration to engage in, I mean to support people like Okutoyi and Filemono but most importantly is that sports is an integral part of development. If we invest in sports then chances are we are going to grow and develop as a country. The third reason is just to motivate the emerging stars like Filemono or Okutoyi because sports hasn't been easy. There are very few positive examples from this part of the world of people who pursued sports and succeeded because it entails huge sacrifice to the extent that people put in their own resources and many people who are even extremely talented fall off the way because they feel like there's no return on investment and so people like Okutoyi who are upcoming, people like Filemono who Gormaya captain who helped the team to win the league these are people who need to motivate so that they can also bring up other people and also see some sort of light at the end of the tunnel so that's part of what I try to do as an individual just to let them know we value what they are doing and they should keep on keeping on. Osora, I'm pretty sure you are in agreement with his guests here it's a good step in the right direction, right? Yeah, very true because you know the major problem that we have as a country is that sports in Kenya is not professional. You look at a situation where you've got Angela Yes now we're interacting with her here today and she's just one of many and after 2-3 years from now people are not getting in touch with Angela because she's going on to another level to another level of sports because she's gone That's the same way you keep chode began Yes, from now when she played Wimbledon she's now a major swimmer in Wimbledon that was the doubles but give her time, she's mature and she's getting on to the game and at the moment she's going to go to another level and people will be like but the major point is she started from an armature point and that is what people don't understand and people don't get it in that when it is called sports development and everything as a country now the conversation should move from we need to move it from the armature level to the professional level now those policies are supposed to be helping and now I will throw the hat to you when you look at our scenario when you look at our Kenyan system and the scenario is you look at a system where the hierarchy of the people who make decisions don't understand that they don't want to understand that we need to move from an armature level for sports to develop for our youth to develop in sports we need to move it from armature to professional and that's very true sorry to jump in we need to say that that's an important point that as a country we need a comprehensive plan which isn't there we can't just be celebrating a player here an athlete there one person here congratulating them what we need to do is to have a comprehensive plan more or less a master plan on how to grow and develop sports in the country we can't just be waiting for someone to win something and then we congratulate them we need to we need a policy like Osoro did point out and not just a policy if you look at Kenya we have policies but they are quite fragmented and uncoordinated so we need policies that are solid but are also compact in a way that they are well coordinated but beyond having a policy we need to enforce and implement those policies because again if you look at Kenya we have a sports policy just like we have in a couple of other countries like Ghana, Benin so are we able to develop policies which do not just create ambitions and aspirations but we are also able to do what it takes to implement this policy so execution becomes undoing yes yes yes it is a point where you get people who are given this mandate and they don't understand their mandate in development of sports and everything so you get a chance where you've got this years the Cabinet Secretary for Sports is in a policy making situation and he is supposed to do that now the people under him also they need to understand that and come in you've got the education system how is education feeding on sports how is the sports feeding on education and I think that brings us to the government role in the development of sporting sector you know as sports consultant keep saying day in day out that the role of government is not to fund sporting federations but to put in place a conducive environment that will enable sporting activities to thrive what do you make, what is your overall assessment about government input in Kenyan sports government input in Kenyan sport has been fairly this small if I was to analyze it in a very honest way because one is government needs to develop a policy not necessarily to do the actual bidding and investment in sports but you will find that Kenyan government like it is with a number of African government they want to be seen to be the one investing in sports and government does not have that capability and capacity so what they need to do is to create an enabling environment for civil society to invest in sport or engage in sport private sector how do we encourage corporates for example to invest in sports is for example providing things like tax holidays incentives putting in place the right structures for a private sector civil society to be able to support sports that hasn't hasn't happened to a large extent and for me I think government has fallen short when it comes to really supporting sports and also sports has to be seen not just as a small department or a component of our development it has to be integrated as part of the national development just look at what Rwanda has done with something like basketball sports now is bringing more resources to Rwanda than any other investment you can talk of Rwanda is now seen as a tourism tourist country or destination because of sports look at what they have done with building a basketball court Rwanda was never known for basketball now everyone else from Europe, from the US from other parts of the world are moving to Rwanda to play NBA something that we should have done we are struggling even with soca stadiums here in Kenya sport that truly we know very well that there is enormous talent so I think and we already submitted the beads we are talking about the African Nations and Transania and we are not talking about the government input there is also that aspect of administrators at the helm of our federations across disciplines football, basketball athletics there has been this argument that is never ending because when you speak to former players they say that they are the most suitable people to be at the helm but when you speak to other people they say that it goes beyond having played the game because you just don't need having been an athlete to be at the helm of Athletics Kenya because Spathik Motepe continental of African football president is at the helm of Kav but he didn't play the sport he is a mining marketer actually the people who run the major sports in the world I think we will talk about Sebko he is a lawyer he was an athlete he worked at 800 meters at 2 mile record in the 80s and now he is running world athletics that is just one of you look at Platini when he was president of the UF but he also played for France and he had that but that does not mean that you have to play the sport or you played the sport it is just that people need your expertise for that game or for that it is just going on to any other institution and you can do the job Kenya we have been in that we have put in a mechanism where people think that hey I played the sport I can be a leader but when you are given that chance you cannot do it I am pretty sure when Raphael awarded Angelo Kutui people at the helm for federations involved might start raising insecurity that this man wants to unseat them the scary part is most of our sports from the international level it comes through the olympics it comes through the national olympic committee it goes down now to the individual federations you have got tennis you have got basketball people now in these federations are the ones who need to come up with good plans to present them to government and government to appreciate that these plans can go forward now for government past the environment we need to check one another it is like a check on balances what are you doing as government and what are we doing and are we bringing in this policy or this development to help these people and that is where we failed and now the baddest thing on the one thing that where we go wrong is people now will look at the success of Filemon people will look at the success of Angelo for you to award Angelo you have to understand our story and that had to come from the sacrifice that Angelo has put in on actually Rafael tell us about what factors you had put into consideration before settling on the two first of all just building on the point that Angelo was making poor governance has really missed our sports sector in this country and we need to fix that we will not grow sports unless we fix governance and it goes beyond someone has having experience as a player or an athlete that is an important ingredient but it's not the only ingredient because it's not coaching it's more about management and administration so we really need people with vision and also with skills it's only that some of the professionals who have been given that opportunity have also done thismally so everyone doubts that maybe they're not passionate enough about sports more than I think it's just an issue of integrity so we really need to get people of integrity and visionary people because we've seen that happen in various forms of of sports now in terms of awarding I run a foundation called the Borneo Foundation and every year we normally I mean we invest a lot in terms of sports and education and so on sports we look at sports development because we truly believe that while many people focus on education as being essential for development sports can also provide and has provided ladder for development for many people you look at people like Kobe Bryant Kobe Bryant didn't even go to college he moved from high school to go and play straight into the national basketball league I mean he's gone now but he did very very well people like Michael Jordan and others there are many other people who I mean no one asks where Kipchoga went to school because I mean that is not the truck he pursued a different truck so I strongly believe that we need to inspire many more young people to engage in sports and so what do we look at we look at something like determination it's an important component how has someone struggled and put in effort to get to where they are we can talk about Okutoi now but people don't know that Okutoi started playing when she was just four years old I mean she was brought up in the ghetto she's an orphan she was brought up by the uncle look at how Okutoi has done so well for herself and for Kenya to move Kenya from position 11 to now the third position for a sport that many people wouldn't even care even when they were playing here very few people went to the Nairobi club yes Nairobi club to watch because we are not really so much informed about tennis but because of Okutoi now the world is focusing on Kenya as a tennis site you know so that is something that we need to appreciate and I saw that when I gave her this gesture of appreciation the award I realized it's possible she hasn't gotten many of such kind of motivation you should have seen the way she was excited she felt nice she was practicing and I could almost see her shedding tears Filomon is the captain of Gormaya people imagine that maybe they get quite a bit of award when I gave her the token of appreciation he called and you could almost tell that he was so appreciative because we don't appreciate these players enough we don't realize the struggles they go through the determination by these players and then the other thing I also look at is the discipline for you to succeed in sports you really need to be disciplined actually it's to succeed in everything but also in sport because you see sport is talent and talent is something people always assume that it's natural and so you can do whatever you want with it but without discipline talent cannot take you so far so determination, discipline and then the skill also how talented are they so I look at those and our way of appreciating and then urging them on and also more or less challenging people who have the bigger responsibility like government for example like private sector for example they should be moving into support these individuals but also these teams because it's a collective responsibility that we have I think in the future we should understand sports ecosystem because sports is too big with the huge potential locally and you know it's a rich employer not only globally but if we put mechanisms and structures and policies in place sport can be it won't be considered as a part time exercise like it's being done home what will be your advice to the government of the day in terms of what they should do to ensure that you know that comes to effect one is like I said have the right policies and that creates an enabling environment for other players to move in stakeholders private sector civil society two fix the governance governance issue is a big big problem let's fix support federations with the capacity they need the structures that are required and three is to look at sports as an investment not an expense so if for example maniala is going to run in some country we feel like we need to cough money again it's a budget again we don't realize that that is more it's an investment this is someone as an individual he's doing something that the entire country is supposed to be doing promoting Kenya he's doing that using his talent and skill so see it as an investment and let's put in more in it of how investment in sports has also earned them a lot of returns and lastly is just seeing sports as part of our national development let's not see sports as sports let's see sports as part of our national development you see the way we budget for health the way we budget for infrastructure the way we budget for education that is how we should be seeing our sports so that we see it as part and parcel of our national development for an exchange earners we can't just talk about tea horticulture, kofi, tourism sports has to be there in fact sports should be number one because Kenya has immense talent you look at what is happening tomorrow we've got the Nairobi City Marathon I was telling someone give it five editions it will be considered now people will be saying it needs to go to the majors we don't need it to be called something no the Nairobi City Marathon but the second edition after five editions people will be like in Africa you need to go for the Nairobi City Marathon you see what the majors do to the Boston, New York, London it's a big event that comes around just like Ipkino classic there is not advocacy for it to be incorporated into the circuit but I don't want to your point is you need education education is the key factor that can merge all this together you need people who are educated enough to go out there and preach this gospel and actually do the necessary when we go to the European countries we did the Birmingham World Athletics Championship it was in Birmingham it was hosted in a university you go to a university it has got all tennis courts all the games that are in the Olympics schedule are being in the university and that a kid knows that for me am a hockey player from the university level this kid knows that after university I am going professional so education is key and this starts even from the education ministry they are linked with the sports has to be key for them to understand that if we link education and sports it is going to be key in that when a kid is growing up don't just think of talent we want to be an Angela that's just one but if you link education and sports you look at the stats where they say if you don't get a 3-point GPA you are not going to play so you put that together and the development and the policies will flourish forever that's true and Maxela just wanted to add something small I went to a college back in the US and our college was is actually known for basketball I mean for education but more for basketball a duke university duke generates more revenue from basketball than from tuition fees this is a top-tier university but it is known that duke gets more revenue from basketball than tuition fees so people can fail to pay tuition fees but if people fail to watch attend the games the school is going to collapse so that's how important sports is that sports can help us run our education system health sector, transport so we really need to see sports as an enabler also not just as a component of the economy that takes from us sports can give so much so we need to start looking at it from that perspective what is your take regarding commercial aspect of the game because if you happen to attend a local game with someone who is passionate about sports development sports advocacy they understand policies of sports growth and you are with them at Nya National Stadium for a game let's say piting gorma and fc lepads I think when they come out they will have a lot to share because they say first of all stadium is not about just playing surface and what is outside there there is no much hype and even no kids which means the aspect of revenue generation is lacking can we do something better ya ya I think we need to be creative we need to be innovative in ways that we can generate resources for sports and with sports you look at basketball teams or even EPL those teams generate income not just from tickets get tickets they generate income from merchandise which is quite quite huge they generate income from maybe some of the activities they host so I think we really need to be creative people who have been tasked with the responsibility of taking care of our sports need to think beyond get charges get tickets because that seems to be the only my friend you attending a football game piting fc lepads and mother united we will stay at kuche kuche because there is no white cup being so outside there the only point is the only point is where the fun engagement is usually family I think you saw a picture that was trending over dad and dad is a young kid in safarali naivaja sports engagement for you to get eyeballs you have to curate it for the family you can't just curate it for just a gentleman going on to the game but if you curate it in a way that I'm comfortable to come with my kid and my wife to watch the game they will buy a ticket for my nephews to come and watch the game with me you will get eyeballs and the commercial sector that is what they want they don't just want just someone coming on to the football they just want to see if these are family events that they can curate for the commercial sector to come into the sport you have to look at the larger picture in that if I can get eyeballs and family family engagement to come into the stadium then the commercial sector will come on to that game at this point I was almost going to say Osoro for one of these federations no no maybe that's not our thing I think Osoro should do Osoro can be good in campaigning especially after drinking a little bit of frothy liquids and the idea part of the problem is also that people with capacity capability and vision sometimes keep away from taking over some of these governance structures and I think it's very very important that we get more able, visionary passionate people to run these federations and sports in our country because otherwise will keep leaving them to people who are not passionate people who just want to take from it and they are not giving anything those people but they are reluctant to contest for this because they think delegates are pre manipulated even before the voting day someone who is capable of delivering in what they seek to do probably they need delegates to understand what they are capable of doing not necessarily by forking money that's true and of course that is now asked to blame as lovers of sports but generally just elections I think we need to start electing leaders based on their policies and based on their manifestos that's the only way we are going to get the right leaders because sports is suffering because of exactly what you say that sometimes we don't see people for who they are but we see them for what they give and that way we sacrifice people who have the right vision and the right capability so if Osoro has the right vision and the right skills and capability to run a federation and he doesn't have resources or he has resources but not to bright people chances of him winning will be quite meaningless when I ordered filamon why for a federation so I was like not really because like you say in those guys don't listen to your ideas and visions and policies they want to know when I say mazindikisha seran has caught your policies put down to what you said about governance and that's where everything goes now down to the wire here at home people use sports as a benchmark for something else you want to be a chairman of something after that you want to move somewhere we don't look at sports coming in as a custodian when you are a leader you have achieved something in the private sector you have achieved something when you come in to run for a sports federation be a custodian and not even in sports actually in leadership when you look at our legislature these guys are not here for us you need a legislature someone who is coming on to a legislature position to be a person who is going to be a custodian in that what you are going there as you are going there to the legislature as a custodian it's a public service and if our leaders and everyone can think in that way we will be going somewhere else that's why we get to a scenario where politicians are buying football clubs locally they run away because it has to be attributed to the overwhelming passion you have for the game not necessarily to rise in terms of your political ambition because someone like Ambrose Rachel probably if you have a conversation with him he will open up and tell you that whatever he uses that belongs to him personally is so huge but it's because of the love for Gormaya the passion he might have overstayed and the people who are reluctant of unseating him because they know it comes with the expectation it's a huge responsibility and a huge investment for individual at the top because if a team is supposed to turn up for a game or tournament or wherever and no government support no corporate support it is you as an individual they are going to look at you're the chairman man yes and I think in which country overseas before you express an interest of vying for a sporting seat you have to show what you have on the table your wealth status it's in the Bundesliga in Germany for you to be a chairman of a football club you have to own you can stand in for a depth of 15% of the club if the clubbers are dead you go in and you say 15% is on it so they know you get him by being dead so at the end of the day you can know in that they know that you have already made that money and you will look at it's standard practice all over the world in that someone is coming in to be a chairman of something you are wealthy enough that you don't need this you are custodian of this but for us now that mindset has to change that mindset has to change because you don't need someone to be a head of a sport which he doesn't know doesn't care about for him what he wants is for him he just want to come in and just lynch it just get the money off it and that one doesn't work for us so Rafaina someone who is widely traveled you might have come across people who whenever they get to know you are a Kenyan and they know of Shudja they know of Elud Kipchoke they know of Faith Kipyagon and talking about Shudja Raghbi our Kenyan National Raghbi Sevens team got relegated from HSBC World Seven series and now they will be working their night to see whether they can leapfrog and bounce back what do you think that was a big failure on our side even as stakeholders of the game not doing much that could be done to ensure that Kenya retains its place because our late friend Benjamina Imba when he wakes up and see Shudja is not at HSBC Seven series where they can probably defend Singapore Sevens he won with them in 2016 think that will be something else quite disappointing what we don't realise that in this part of the world and Kenya in particular these players succeed not necessarily because of the support given to them but just because of their individual passion and determination and it shouldn't be like that I think they are already giving so much by offering their talent providing their skills to be in the field I think we need to provide an enabling environment and to motivate and support them because most players truly in different sports they don't get that kind of support the other day I was reading the other day I was reading Omanyala in the papers Omanyala was saying how he travels sometimes alone no nutritionist no coach no physio and imagine you travel and that means what he did say and on arrival is supposed to be on the pitch running what a huge sacrifice shuja isn't it the same team we saw some time back fundraising for air tickets through social media to go for a tournament to represent this country and bring glory back home and not just glory market it to an extent that people will know Kenya now you go to places and if you say you are Kenyan the first thing you ask Kenyan or do you know Okutoi or do you know so and so it means that sport is marketing Kenya in ways that are unimaginable or we haven't realized so it's a failure on part of the government but it's a failure also on part of all the stakeholders including the federations including corporates including civil society all of us as individuals because we are supposed to really invest in these sports when you go to the stadium it's also about growing sport so that's why we need to find a way of instead of sometimes like you are saying kupigashere elsewhere without mentioning Osoro you need to be in the stadium because that contribution that ticket that you see is 100, 200 or 500 shillings is going to go a long way of course if those resources are well managed to support these teams we need to sacrifice for Kenya rugby to get to where they were a few years ago because unless we put in the right mechanisms and infrastructures to support these players to support these teams it could be very very difficult so we really really failed as a country and various components of this country I think it was also a major and doing on the side of Kenya tourism board and general minister because they are also supposed to use our sportsmen and women for advertising the country internationally you remember that now Mekam Bel Noise yes yes and when we have the likes of Angelo Kutui, Victor Wanyama Eliut Kipchoge I think going forward probably this country will do better because we've seen the commitment shown by president William Ruto in rally the other day alongside former PM and the two topmost leaders embracing the game can we treat that as a statement? Yes you can treat it as a statement but the understanding of it can be connoted differently in the people understanding it but from the ministry perspective of how you are going to market the country as a sports destination I think it has worked you look at we got the safari rally coming back into the country that was a good will from the government we've got the European tour the golf European tour coming on to the country we've got the Nairobi city marathon going on we've got the Kipkeino classic going on now it is about now how the government can maximise on that to get the best profit the best benefits of those sports events that are coming on to the country and for them to come into that they now need to understand these conversations that are happening inside their sport they need to be there when you land at JKIA you don't see a billboard of value you don't see a billboard of faith Kipkeino remember in 2012 when Rudisha broke the 800m record in London in London when they landed in Kenya at JKIA they thought that Rudisha is really massive big person in Kenya but they landed at JKIA and they don't see when a post then they get surprised kumbe kumbe more far is bigger than Rudisha I saw that in Boston where they normally have Boston marathon the late 1-0 if you are in Kenya and you don't know 1-0 you will be chased but yet here there is nothing to show that he is when they did that mural of elu people saw that mural of elu that mural of faith now people will start appreciating that now the tourism and everything appreciate those figures put them outside there for people to see in that I don't think there is a marathon that Kenya has not won you go to Paris, you go to New York you go to Boston, Chicago, London, Berlin elu does one Berlin and everything the moment you land in Berlin and you talk of elu is a big thing but here at home people know how massive elu is outside there for us to appreciate we can have even until evening hours of the day because it can never come to an end when we talk about sports policies structures, mechanisms that are aimed at getting our game to another level and it's been a pleasure doing this with this gentleman in the studio Rafael, less than a minute your patting show your final submissions what should we do let's invest in sports let's make sports part of our national development let's fix poor governance let's have the right policies let's appreciate what our sportsmen and women are doing let's inspire them, let's motivate them and let's give them the support that they need to continue doing what they are doing that is so important and these calls for collective responsibility individuals in whichever way and form you can support it, please do civil society, media most importantly private sector and government we really need to give sports the backing that it requires good staff Rafael Obonyo joining us this particular afternoon to share his excellent insights regarding sports development in the countries reputable public policy, analyst and where many hearts indeed so much away from sports which my friend told me this particular morning but I think I'm just learning something different that he also has got overwhelming passion and love for the game and it's been a pleasure doing this every Saturday 1, 2, 3 Tashline, Maxwell Waseek alongside my long time ally Robert Osoro and of course the conversation continues even as we come to an end of this program ashtag Tashline Y25 at Waseek Maksul at Mirumbi Osoro I think I've gotten it right to everyone who got involved in making this as access led by Beatrice Abdul Razak Faith Stacey Mandy I think the list is endless it's been a pleasure doing this with these people have a nice weekend and indeed a sporting one tomorrow is Nairobi County Marathon I think we will stay tuned to it don't go away enjoy the weekend