 will not stop abortion, will not end abortion. It's a very provocative statement by Charlene Chang. Charlene Chang is with democracy and color. Did I get that right? That's right. And she has a multiple, multiplex life in many areas, but it's all around that. And she helps Steve Phillips write his books, including a book I'm going to show you right now. It's how we can win this civil war. That's right. Also, he wrote Brown as the new white, and Charlene has helped them and works with him in democracy and color. Welcome to the show, Charlene. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Let's talk about Roe v. Wade today. I must say that, you know, full disclosure, I'm nauseous about it because I see I'm a lawyer, right? And I was raised and trained and my practice was always to, you know, hold those guys in great, great esteem. I no longer hold them in great esteem. I'm sorry. And it's probably not reversible for me. I'm finished with them. One of my buddies here in Honolulu resigned from the Supreme Court, sent him a letter of resignation. He was a member of the Supreme Court bar, you know, sworn in in Washington, and he resigned. That's the way I feel about it, too, although I haven't actually resigned yet. Mentally, I have. How do you feel about the Supreme Court? Well, the Supreme Court that our country currently has is clearly it's become heavily politicized and heavily right and doesn't represent what the people want, the majority of the people. And talk about being viscerally affected by what's happening in terms of the most recently leaked draft opinion, you know, penned by Alito is that was leaked to the media. I feel I felt a visceral sickening and grief and anger and just a disappointment. A disappointment is putting it lightly about what has happened up and down our political system. And, you know, having grown up thinking that the Supreme Court is supposed to be this very, you know, unbiased body that represents, you know, has sound judgment and is fair. And it's it's not anymore. What doesn't it reflect on being the devil's advocate? Yeah, Doesn't it reflect the people in this country, you know, a substantial plurality of which are in the same place? And they feel very strongly about it. And they have their reasons, which I feel are completely irrational. But they have their reasons and the Supreme Court is marching along with them. So it doesn't reflect if you know, if you are an ordinary person walking down the street of Budapest, how do you feel about America? Well, America's turning right. And America's going autocratic. America is forgetting about civil liberties. America is forgetting about women. I mean, America is in trouble. That's how I would feel in the streets of Budapest. We have lost our light on the hill, you know, our city on the hill. So I mean, that's one of the questions I want to ask you. But but my first question is, doesn't what the Supreme Court has done and is doing? This is not the only off the wall case. Isn't that consistent with a substantial number of people in this country who feel strongly, although without good reason, just as strong as you and I? Yeah, just just to be clear, I'm not a legal experts. I don't want to I know this is the law segment of your show. But I do. I am part of a organization called Democracy in Color, and we work at the intersection of electoral politics and essentially putting on analysis on today's politics with a race conscious lens. And so I always call it the juncture of electoral politics and social racial justice. And our stance is that if you look at the numbers and if you can do math, there are more of us than them. This has been proven, you know, during the Obama years. And I would say I would say during this last election, which is real frustrating to us that people tend to when I say people, especially like pundits and media, not not wrapping you into that, but to kind of get caught up in a different narrative of, well, they're the majority or and we're the losing side. We did win the last domestic election. And we did flip Georgia. And we did in the runoffs win two Senate seats in Georgia, which in past years, nobody would think that our side could win a place like Georgia. And the way we were able to do that is to get more people on our side to turn out and vote, including the increasing demographic revolution of people of color and voters of color out there. So in our sort of our constant messages, in terms of the numbers, we are larger in numbers. Now, the question is whether or not the Democratic Party and system sort of institution can drop what they've been doing forever and tune into that and inspire and motivate more voters of color to well run for office. Yes, but also more voters of color to turn out and vote. Well, you know, we can touch on all the problems, but I would like to sort of center our discussion around what exactly can be done. What you can do a democracy in color with people are sympathetic to you, what they can do. Because I have trouble finding that path. And maybe you can help me help us with what what the path is, what the what the steps are for organizations like yours. And for ordinary people like me to get there, to change things, to make the country right again. So I shouldn't use that expression. That's a bad expression. Well, I, you know, we I'm a I'm a wordsmith. So I get sometimes nitpicky about words. This phrasing of make our country right again. I didn't say white. No, no, I know. No, even right. Or like, you know, I mean, I took it back when I said right. Yeah. No, or even there's a concept of that there was a time in our country where our country was better is a kind of begs the question for whom. But that I don't want to get too off topic. But let's, you know, let's just, you know, I like to kind of have people sometimes think about that a bit. But in terms of your question, it seems really simplistic, but our message always fundamentally goes back to a obviously vote, right? We have in this country still a great privilege and right that many people in other countries don't, which is the right to vote. Is our democracy perfect? No. Is it under threat? Our electoral system? Sure. But we still can vote and encourage other people to vote and to mobilize and get involved. Like put, you know, put on some shoes and get out there now, especially now that it's a little bit easier with the pandemic numbers going down and, you know, people having more of ability to go out without, you know, it's not what I call deep pandemic. This is this election cycle. We have six or months left. You can go anywhere to your local, you can go anywhere in everybody's local communities and get involved on some level and then contribute to organizations that are are supporting the causes you believe in. At democracy color, we lately were suggesting people put their donation dollars 50 percent to Stacey Abrams gubernatorial race, no matter where you live. And if you'd like, I could tell you why. But what but very just in brief that what Stacey Abrams is doing is laying out a blueprint for how to win in the rest of the country in places where there are battles going on, where it's, you know, what we call purple or blue, but the purplish blue or reddish purple. Like, in other words, places that we can use what Stacey Abrams has done in Georgia to permanently make places blue and then start to, you know, have these key places become what used to be battleground states, our states, and then use that. If we can solidify that, we can solidify wins going forward. You know, you're not the first person to suggest that. Wherever you live in the country, whatever state, whatever your, you know, your local activity is give your money to Stacey Abrams. And that's very interesting. You should you should say that. But you think a black woman can can win for president? A black woman can win for president. I absolutely believe it can be done. I think, you know, following what we call this sort of we call that the liberation battle plan and Stacey's blueprint is part of it. The map is there following it. I absolutely do in terms of when that's going to happen and when everything will fall into place. I'm not a fortune teller, but I think we're getting closer all the time. You know, probably these battleground states is that the Trumpers have have loaded loaded them up with these crazy statutes that allow people to indiscriminately turn over an election, which is I mean, it's a deep breathing exercise. They wrap your mind around that the people vote and these officials have the power in a number of states to turn that over, to disregard the popular vote completely. This is very, this is very troubling to me because we can all, you know, send money to Stacey Abrams and see what she can do in Georgia and beyond. We can, you know, support candidates we think have a vision to correct the problems in the country. And after all of that, we could win in certain places. But then we find that, A, these legislators, legislatures have allowed voting officials, have brought in a new crop of voting officials, not like Raphansburg or at all, who will turn it over. And then B, we have the Supreme Court. And in the middle, we have a bunch of judges who are unqualified at a federal bench. So how optimistic are you that that would work? I feel like I have to remain at least somewhat optimistic. You know, as you can see from some of the drawings behind me, I do have a child in my house, a mother to a 10 year old girl. And for an obligation to provide your 10 year old child with a country that she can enjoy, I do feel that way. I do feel like, you know, I'm I'm human and I'm I'm experiencing much of what you're experiencing. I've been around and not only that, but my bread and butter is to read as much news and politics. It's easy to feel, especially over the past four plus years, to feel like giving up and moving out or something. You know, but this is my country. This is her country. I I love so much about it. I believe in it. I think if you look at its short history, much progress has taken place. My parents came here as immigrants. They were born in China, raised in Taiwan. They came to this country to pursue their education. And they they did in their own way, get their American dream. And that could not have happened without the progress that happened during the Civil Rights Movement and the 1965 Immigration Act. My husband is white. There was a time not too long ago when we could not be married. So many of us have, if we just take a moment to pause, real evidence that progress in this country can happen. It never happened without essentially blood, sweat and tears. When you had mentioned going back into a bit of the weeds, like what are we going to do about these elections? You know, just sort of, you know, people in position of powers who can just shut it down. I do want to people to tune into one of my favorite topics, which is the secretary of state races, which are super unsexy and very few people know about them, but there are some key secretary of state races this year for people to either donate to or check out or encourage their friends and family to vote in. One is in Georgia, be when is running for secretary of state there. And the other is in Arizona. There's a primary there. I'm quite impressed by Adrian Fontez in Arizona. He's got a really good experience in Mariposa County. And those are the kind of people that we should tune into and making sure that even though it's a down ballot race that people are voting for their secretary of states, because as we saw in Georgia in 2018, what Brian Kemp did, yeah, they have power to, you know, manipulate the elections in their party's favor if given the chance. We punctuate our discussion, not to dwell on it, but with what FDR said way back when that the thing we have to fear most is fear itself. And I think now the thing we have to fear most is complacency itself is the sense of giving up that this is not going to work too hard. We can't do it. It's the same notion, isn't it? You know, that's what we have to fear and we can't do that. And the Democratic Party needs the kind of leadership that will take it across that and that will talk. We'll have a lot of people talking like you. But in the meantime, we have to suffer through some hard times. You know, you wanted to talk about how the overturn of Roe v. Wade isn't going to work. It isn't going to work in this country. It's not going to end abortion. Even now, as Mark said yesterday about Mexico, Mexico establishing virtually overnight a huge industry to provide abortions for Americans who cross the border. This is really interesting. And there'll be other countries, too. I mean, there's only 24 countries in the world that outlaw abortion. And we are one of them. We're cruising back at high speed into the 12th century. You can thank Samuel Alito for that reference. In any event, my concern and I'd like to hear your thoughts about it is that is that we'll still have abortions. We will still have abortions just that we had abortions before Roe v. Wade with coat hangers and, you know, hospitalizations and terrible things happening to women because it's still going to happen. Yes, absolutely. And Jay, I'm so glad you said that. I think there is a simplistic simplifying narrative right now that abortion is going to be banned and there will be that it won't be taking place. And I think it's important for people to remember that just like what you said, it will be taking place and increasingly, you know, countless girls and women and their lives and people, as I say, people who can get other people who can get pregnant, other people of uteruses will be placing their lives in grave danger and jeopardy. There will be more women and girls would die. And the question is, do we care? And why, you know, why are we, you know, we cannot afford to lose this moment in letting this happen? The also part that I question and wonder is, do people know? Do people understand that the disproportionate number of those girls, women and people who get pregnant, who will be putting their lives at risk and will be dying, will be black and brown women, Native American women who are disproportionately in this country affected by low income, poor working class, but also have the least access to affordable and quality health care and things like education. And now we're talking about things like transportation costs, right? How are you going to get to Mexico? How are you even going to get to your other, you know, neighboring states where it may still be legal? That's all well and good for a certain class of people and certain groups of people who can afford that. And let me just say the average woman who gets abortion. I read this is that it has already at least one child. And so now you have to find childcare and maybe bring somebody, find some other adult who can come with you because it's a medical procedure and it's a health issue. Many, many women and girls and people who can get pregnant and cannot find all of those, you know, resources and and supports to to get the get any kind of quality care. And so they will, you know, find maybe other methods. And I don't even want to think about what being in their position. Well, that's what Janet Yellen said yesterday. She said, you know, overturning Roe v. Ways going to affect the economy is because all these people, you know, will not be able to be productive and the people around them won't be able to be productive. It's going to disrupt us. You know, we have been disrupted with this issue. It's just amazing. You know, there's so many things happening in the world and I'll start out with climate change. You know, there was an article yesterday about how we can expect them, you know, industry to become much more difficult after 2026 because of the, you know, increase in Celsius, 1.5 more by 2020. Holy moly. This isn't, you know, the existential threat we've been talking about for 30 years is actually happening. Why? Because we haven't paid attention to it. Instead, we pay attention to Roe v. Wade. Really, really, we have better things to do in our time, collectively. Anyway, you know, to extend on your thought, the comments about the court and the right wing also suggest that the next target is going to be contraception, which I find very interesting. So let's get right to the root of it, you know, we don't want anybody doing anything to stop, you know, the birth of lots and lots and lots of children, especially the people that can't afford the abortion or can't afford the contraception. Unbelievable. And so what happens and this, I want to pose this to you because this show is about consequences, consequences. So, okay, let's say they have their way. First of all, there's a lot of Republicans that are going to suffer by this overthrow. There's a lot of Republicans, you know, poor Republicans. Republicans can be poor also. Honestly, absolutely. I mean, millions of them. Yes. Anyway, so, OK, so you have lots and lots and lots of kids, lots of kids, unwanted kids. OK, that affects the economy. And it certainly affects the social society to have a lot of unwanted kids around. This is already the case in many places in the South, lots of unwanted kids and they're not good for the society because it costs so much time and attention and usually they get in trouble and they don't turn out to be productive citizens and unwanted kids are not a good thing. But here, what these guys want to do is they want to be racist. It's all about that. I mean, it goes to the, what was her name yesterday? Who was nominated for the Federal Reserve Board? And they, they, they, she only got through because Kamala Harris broke the tie. She was black and they abused her and every single GOP member of the Senate came in to vote against her every single one. Now that's racism. Just the way they mistreated Katanji Brown Jackson, it's racism is what it is. Well, and yeah, this whole thing about Roe v Wade and contraception, that's racist too. And I think the core, the base, if you will, and base has multiple meanings. If you're a wordsmith, you know, the base wants to do this on a racist basis, but they don't realize though, maybe they do it's crazy. Let's have more unwanted black and brown. And for that matter, Asian children, let's have minority children, let's populate the whole country with unwanted minority children. Where does that take us? Is this better in some way? It's extraordinary. These are the very people that the base would like to be racist against. So they are effectively creating more minority children. What's, what's the benefit of that? And if you stop Roe v Wade and conception in the thought that it's, it's going to be an expression of your racism, that you wind up having more people to hate. Well, is that backward? Am I getting this right or wrong? Is that, is that crazy or what? I think that, you know, the thing to keep in mind is that we are in a war and they know it. They're playing like they're in a war. So they're just playing for control and power to the degree that they're thinking about, well, the, the consequences, they're just trying to fight for control now. Right. So what, what eliminating reproductive rights does is it controls women. And by the way, females make up 51% of the country. So first and foremost, they're like, well, we have, you know, this way we can seriously control a significant part of the population. And then I'll, you know, the, the organization I work with is Demox and color founded by Steve Phillips. He has a new book out this fall called How to Win the Civil War. And so that frames up all of it as part of war tactics. And if there's collateral, which is some of their own folks, so be it, because that didn't stop them in the real, the original civil war either. So this is a civil war. They're fighting as if they know it, they know it, our side doesn't our side is bringing a paper clip to the civil war. And our side is, yeah, at risk of losing, but there's many ways that, you know, I mentioned before, if we just stick to following the people who know how to win, we can win. Yeah. Um, you know, it's not a new civil war, my personal opinion. It's an ongoing war that never ended. Never. And some people feel the revolution never ended, but that's another show. Yeah, this is the same civil war never ended. We never got it out of our system, so to speak. And, um, okay. So let's get back on the main track, aside from, you know, helping Stacey Abrams and people like Stacey Abrams, and there are, there are logistical issues I want to discuss with you. I hope we have time. Um, what else do we need to do? You know, I see one of those things is we have to find, as I alluded to before, let's find leadership in the democratic side of the equation. We have to find people we can attach to, who we can listen to and trust, who we can take advice from. Um, I'm not sure we have that right now. We have, it's all fragmented somehow. Uh, if we had, for example, a DNC person, uh, who everybody knew the name, who everybody followed, who everybody, you know, wanted to, you know, emulate, um, that, that might help. But what else can we do to come together on this? What else can we do to, to call it out and win the civil war finally? I know we're up against the clock. So I will just briefly, if you don't mind, just plug like the podcast that I'm the co-host of is called Democracy in Color with Seafields podcast. And we highlight interview a lot of what we call hidden figures. Listen to our podcast, listen to these hidden figures. These are the exact people we should, that you're saying who should we look to and listen to? These are the people. They are, um, there are signs of hope and people out there doing amazing work right now. This very minute that are going unnoticed and unwritten about, and you're not reading about them, but they are leading the way and they know how to win. Okay. Um, be more specific. What do I do? Okay. Wake up in the morning. What do I do? You know, to me, this is an existential thing. I feel that if we don't do something, and I say we the right thinking, sorry, I said that, the right thinking people in the country don't do something. You know, this election, 2024, some people speculate what will happen if Trump gets back in power and it's, it's awful nightmare type of scenario. So we have to attend to it. And I worry about it. A lot of people do. Uh, what, what am I doing to wake up in the morning? Tell me specifically. Three organizations to learn about and consider contributing to them because they're in three states that are key. Texas, Texas organizing project. Georgia, New Georgia project, and Arizona, Arizona wins and Arizona won. And, um, again, if you go to our website, democracy color, you can learn more about them, but we all agree. Those are three key states. And so if you want to know how to help organizations on the ground who are, have over the past 10 years worked hard and secured wins and continue to, those are three organizations. Okay, we'll put, you know, we'll, we'll write that out and, and put it on this video. So when the video circulates, those names will be there. Great. Yeah, those, you can't go wrong. And if you read about the people who are working there, you will get a lift of hope. And it's important to seek out those stories because on your regular scrolling of the social media, you're not going to see them. Yeah, correct. They're out there. Put them on for 10 seconds. We'll, we'll have them on there a long time. So, Charlene, you know, just coming back to the immediate, if you will, we've been talking about sort of jumping over this and wrapping our minds around the larger issue of the Civil War and Steve Phillips book and all that. But, you know, what about Roe v. Wade? I mean, it's pretty sure with the exception of that 13th century person that was quoted in the draft opinion, which I think that'll come out. They can't, they can't possibly be accept that kind of embarrassment about the opinion. That'll come out, but the opinion will be published. I'm not sure where Roberts is going to be. Really not sure. Ordinarily, you know, he'd be leading the charge case, a big case like this, but he may actually write a concurring or dissenting opinion that's different than the one we saw. But what if anything can be done about that case? It's coming out, Charlie. It's coming out. You know, as I wrote, you had responded to me because I wrote a brief kind of like essay. And I do, I believe that we should expand the court. I know it's very controversial. But I think the most, you know, we just can't afford to wait and worry about, you know, what, you know, what the other side will do afterwards. But I that's one. One belief I have. And, you know, other than that, I think, you know, we we just I also kind of am trying to sort of say, let's wait and see. But yeah, and just all the things that I mentioned is that it is part of their strategy. And then we just need to have our strategy to and also to just keep hopeful. There are incredible organizations on reproductive rights fighting on the front lines, support them. They need all the support they can get. And we we just have to continue, you know, fighting the ways that we can. So I'm turning and voting out those, you know, Democrats who, let's just say, are not are not, you know, fighting on our side, clear. It's true. You know, there are some Democrats that need to be voted out. They sure are. We assume that if they're Democrat, they're OK. But some Democrats are not OK. What was it? Animal Farm? Some animals are more equal than others. You know, some Democrats are not really Democrat to speak of Joe Manchin, for example, and his friend, Cinema. So OK. So question is right now today, probably, Charlene, as we speak right now, they're having a vote. OK. Yes. And that vote is going to fail. Yes. Can you tell me whether you agree that there should be a vote on such a thing on codifying Roe v. Wade? Can you tell me the significance of the vote? Can you tell me, you know, what, if anything, is the aftermath of that vote? I think I think you're right. It is probably going to fail. I still I personally think it was still meaningful and important for them to go through with it. Some people have said, well, why bother just to get certain people on the record? Like the very thing we're talking about, which is to continue to show who, in particular, is just, you know, holding up our ability to to fight and win. And also it's meaningful, I think, for those, like I said, those of us who are feeling this visceral moment of complete, you know, sense of this is happening. Nobody is trying to do anything. I don't think they could have just stood by and done nothing. So, yes, it was a gesture for me personally. It does mean it's meaningful, even though I knew it was going to most likely fail. But it's it's a step. It's a measure and it, you know, it's meaningful to me. And so we'll see, you know, what happens next. And like I said, I am my work now, you know, hold all of this in a historical context and try to keep in mind that our country and our democracy is young. And I just still keep in mind all the the really tremendous progress and change that has happened over the lifetime of this country. And it's just hard for us living in the moment. But we just have to stay hopeful and get involved, get involved. This is this is where I'm supposed to close the show. But I have I have a couple more things. You know, I'm not sure I feel the same way about American history. I mean, we have been mean to a lot of people. Oh, yeah. And it isn't, you know, think of the struggles we have had and and the the battle between the capital and the people. And we've had some really terrible experiences, violent experiences, mean indecent experiences. And you wonder why so many countries in Europe, for example, not all of them, but in Europe are ahead of us. And so we need to have a culture change. This is not so easy. But you have, you know, you you've dedicated yourself to this. And you're obviously passionate about it. And I I'll make a wild guess and say you don't do it for the money. You should see my mansion. I'm just not sure I'm just not showing it to you, Jay, because I don't want you to feel bad. I understand it and I don't feel bad. But, you know, let's let's roll it forward 10 years, say 10 years or 20. What is Charlene Chang going to be doing? Is she going to be as passionate? Is, you know, is this a lifelong commitment? How do you see it unfolding for you? Because, you know, I know a lot of people just like you and they're so dedicated to try to make things work again. How does it look for you going down the road? You think you're going to be in the military industrial establishment in 10 years? I think that I will have a nice I'm hoping to grow a nice little white streak right here. And I think I will I knowing myself, you know, my first life, life career was as a journalist. And then I got into nonprofit communications. And then I got into this world of communications in politics and so at the intersection of social racial justice. I love the work I do. It helps me channel some of the hard feelings that I get after reading the news and any feelings of hopelessness. It helps me channel and feel like there's I'm putting myself to use. And I think I'll just keep doing that. And for as long as I find myself being able to contribute my skills in whatever way. And I think I'm excited about the new generation, especially of I'll tell you, black women coming up in this country. It's very exciting. We have next this this week tomorrow, actually a new episode with Summer Lee, who's running in Pennsylvania and listening to a young woman compared to me and how passionate she is about why she keeps fighting. She's in Western Pennsylvania up against all odds came, you know, from definitely you know, challenging childhood background in terms of social economics. She's the future. Women like her. And I'm very excited. I want to be part of it because I didn't grow up with with women of color role models in making social justice change, not not to the degree to not in the large, relatively large numbers that we see up and coming. So for me and my daughter, I want to, you know, have, if not a front row street, you know, somewhere in the crowd, I want to have a seat and be involved. I'm touched. I'm going to keep the face. That's where I am too, Shirley. No, kids like my daughter, you know, make her just like you. Yeah, the majority of kids today are 18 under our kids of color that are country. This is what exactly this war is about and fighting again. They cannot fight the tide that this what we call the new generation, the very, very soon, the next generation of young adults are majority people of color. They can't stop that. They're trying to know, but they're they're trying to disempower them, but they can't stop their presence. They are already here. Those kids have got to get on this train, though. They can't be a sideline and they can't be wallflowers and they can't be complacent. They've got to go and and vote and think and read. Yeah, not just tick, tick, tick all the time, tick, tick, tick, talk or yeah, but you know, unless it's tick, talk that inspires them to get voting. But I know there are I mean, I try not to knock younger generation. I also work. I'm heavily involved in my daughter's school and school district. Of course, I live in Berkeley. It's very, very progressive and activated. But young people are doing amazing things. They are so activated. All this reminds me of a quote that I can't remember who said this. OK, but it just seems totally appropriate. It's be useful. Be useful. And you are, Charlie. I appreciate it. You too. Oh, well, I know you're trying to pull off the jaded uncle, but you run this show and I can tell you still feel like you care and you you want to make a difference. Well, when you get a chance to talk to Steve Phillips, OK, tell him he can be just a little more useful if he will come on our show also. I'll do that. I'll be useful that way. Charlene Chang, this democracy in color, thank you so much for joining us today. It's a pleasure, Jay. Thank you. Aloha. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.