 very special edition of the Hyperledger Technical Steering Committee. Everybody is welcome at this meeting and likewise everybody is welcome at all of our working group meetings and everybody is especially welcome to contribute code to our projects under Apache 2 license. If you are uncertain how to behave in any of these settings we do have a code of conduct which you can go take a look at which I can summarize for you very briefly as be respectful of those around you. We do have a very full agenda this morning so I'm going to pretty much jump right into things. You can read the event reminders yourself. Do we have on the call a representative from the caliper project? Victor perhaps? Okay so we'll keep that in mind. If we don't hear from the caliper project as we're getting going this morning we might go ahead and use up that time slot to extend the supply chain proposal if we need to. Hello. Hello. Oh great. Hi. I'm so caliper wonderful all right well we will come around to your agenda item in about a half an hour probably and then do we have somebody from the fabric as well? Yeah so Chris was planning to give the update I don't know if we have Dave otherwise I could give it if they didn't I suppose okay but otherwise Chris said he would not going to be able to join me for the half hour so he was wondering if you could actually move the supply chain discussion to later in the agenda maybe we can start with the reports. That's what I was going to suggest as well because otherwise if we could start on the supply chain stuff we're likely to not get to the updates and exactly I think time-wise it might be easier to manage. Yeah I did think of that we had some availability though from constraints from a few of the participants including the supply chain proposal so my hope is that we can either way we're going to have to cut off some of the discussion so I hope that we can contain the discussion effectively and then from the sawtooth project I believe we'll have Andy available. Yep I'm here. Wonderful. Hey it's Chris sorry I'm late. Oh great so Chris is here nonetheless. All right so with that I would like to introduce Dave Checkie he's a director of data engineering for Cargill it's one of the cosponsors of the supply chain proposal to walk us through the proposal and talk about it. Hey Dan before that starts how would people feel about setting a time limit on how long we discuss supply chain today and if we need to we'll continue the discussion another time just so we can get to the other updates and things that need to happen. Yeah thanks Mark I was planning on allocating about a half an hour for the supply chain discussion and then 10 minutes each for each of the scheduled updates. Does that work for everyone? Works for me that looks good. All right great Dave Checkie are you on the line? Yes I am can you hear me okay? I sure can. Great always an achievement when the AV works. Definitely is. Okay well we just start I'm not familiar with protocol and how these we we transition here but yeah so in the chat session for chat.hyperledger.org under the TSC channel I have just pasted the link for the proposal but that is also in the meeting agenda that was sent out to the TSC list. Yeah and so you're free to proceed as you like you can either share your screen or just ask people to guide through the the proposal themselves. Yeah and so like I don't know that I need to share a screen but I'll have it up here and people can move people can move through it. So thank you for the opportunity it's a privilege to get to present a proposal like this to this to this group and it sounds like there's a healthy level of interest in discussing this topic and that's candidly very exciting to see I come from Cargill I work at Cargill we're a large agribusiness company we often say we're the biggest company no one's ever heard of but that's okay and we've been exploring and are very excited about open source blockchain solutions and where they will apply to our various business processes industries and markets we started on this maybe 18 months or two years ago and have been working with like-minded partners to again explore prototype and pilots and use cases based on hyperledger among other things but primarily on hyperledger solutions. As we've as we started to build out these solutions like our approach has been like let's build reusable frameworks reusable building blocks that we could then assemble into solutions to to provide velocity quality and really all the other reasons that someone would build reusable frameworks and it is honestly surprised surprised us as we as we started to move into this and maybe it shouldn't have been just based on broad maturity of the solutions in general but it surprised us about the lack of structure or the lack of available frameworks that existed in the open source community. For example like even things like primitive data types weren't weren't well-defined and available to just include as part of a project every single project that wants to start in the open source community has to like define what data types they support and as engineers I'm sure we all can look at that and say feels like we should have a little bit more available for reuse. In addition to that we've seen most of our personal use cases have anchored around supply chain and various supply chain type applications and so these reusable frameworks or building blocks really are we see being used across different apps or different types of solutions and as we're building those out and working with others to think about how those should work it became a conversation about like where should we put these and as as most of our foundational blockchain stuff at least is done with hyperledger our direction became why wouldn't we consider just giving these back to the hyperledger community for the purposes of supply chain use cases and so that that's really the background for this proposal and so really what this would consist of is a set of components frameworks models what have you that help people build higher quality solutions applications products or what have you with hyper ledger tools so this is not a this is not an application in of itself you would not download install and run the hyper ledger supply chain or whatever it ends up being called you would use that to build your own products we really see this as exciting for a lot of reasons I think like personally again I think as an observer of how hyperledger works like it feels like it's on a fragmented path in some respects and like how can this type of project help unify thinking for enterprise blockchain use cases when it comes to the things like wasm for example when it comes to things like identity when it comes to things like other maybe more specific not industry I don't want to say industry but more specific reusable standards and frameworks and so hopefully we can enable some of that as well the uh so that's effectively kind of what we're proposing uh I don't I don't know how how else or like where else we would talk through this like is it go to q and a now or does it go to comments or or what but I mean fundamentally I want to be clear that like it feels like there's a gap in the open source community around providing reusable frameworks and tools to enable applications to be built efficiently and with quality and like every every software product out there has the has libraries and has modules and how do we how does hyperledger thinking about that because like cargo's ready to come to invest and to commit to providing these capabilities to the community and being part of the community and and so where does that stuff go all right well thanks Dave and and yeah so uh I guess with that as some further background to the proposal that's been circulated we'll open it now to q and a with an emphasis on clarifying questions around the proposal and and once those are satisfied we can get into a bit broader discussion about the scope for the technical community is this we lost audio here did you guys that then we lost you okay I'm trying to speak in a very crowded area so I kept keep putting myself on mute so that anyway I really support this because I think it's time we started talking about building solutions rather than uh you know getting in the weeds of the uh DLT itself and that's very important and I was wondering whether about two things one is whether the proposal follows the template that we have proposed that we have in the you know we have in our documents a template for project proposal the second is could there be more details on what exactly are the generic components that you're building you mentioned two wasm and and identity but I believe there are you know in supply chain use cases that there are some primitives that would help other use cases as well and I think you know like we started developing the privacy and confidentiality working group on the architecture with the supply chain use case for factoring you know invoice factoring and I know that some of the production systems that are out there like monatago's system in India is based on invoice factoring so there are these components that take finance provenance various other other types of interactions that are part of the supply chain use case so were you thinking of concentrating on certain sections of it or are you interested in the whole value chain and the primitives surrounding them yeah so I mean certainly it's a really it's a really thoughtful question and I want to be clear that like the motivations for cargo submitting this are supply chain centric absolutely like I can envision that components from this type of supply chain type framework or frameworks may have applicability to other market models like to me that somebody else like the finance thinks that there's also used for permission schemes that are similar to how permission schemes operate in supply chains that is awesome let's let's let's convene and talk about how to refactor and reuse in in appropriate ways so I'm not attempting to overreach you know into like finance domains so there's another part of there's another part of the pin's question which is supply chain supply chain is a really really general term sure and it's a huge amount of stuff from tracking and logistics planning querying all the way to the invoicing and managing of the financial side of it how are you constraining maybe maybe a better question is when you talk about finding or supply chain what is your definition of it and do you have a specific set of capabilities because I didn't see that listed in the paper it's a very very general description and I have a hard time figuring out exactly what it is you would build yeah I think that's fair and I think I think if we look at initial supply chain use cases which are certainly broad in scope although I would argue that like the financial like no one like supply chain does not consist of AR and AP and some of the things that you talked about there are potentially bridging into other parts of the business domain but we are looking and the proposal does speak to this somewhat but I mean typical use cases that we see do have to do with logistics do have to do with track and trace type scenarios and do have to do with really what are what we see as multi-party distributed supply chain business process enablement and and like all of these things are underpinned by certain constructs that are very similar like there's software that does this stuff and has for decades and so it's not it's not new concepts like we don't right now intend to like prioritize demand forecasting or detailed scheduling in our production facilities but that's also part of supply chain in the broad umbrella like what we're looking for is to solve distributed supply chain problems and just saying hey as we as we develop maybe an opinionated data model for something like product and we enable products to be stored on hyper ledger we're happy to give that back and like candidly I'm a little surprised it doesn't exist already like why isn't there some like all these consortiums that are getting together like they all ask the same question how should we store products and like having an initial opinion from hyper as on hyper ledger that doesn't mean you have to take it but but like where should we put it hi this is hi to me like that like that stuff is like just the building blocks the fundamental building blocks for a location or a product or a party that all feels very reasonable and those can enable a lot of different use cases hi my name yeah my name is george holster you you made a point saying you're surprised that there aren't already these products or tools out there my research shows that there are blockchain based supply chain vertical solutions on the market yeah I'm talking in the open source community in particular hyper ledger just to be clear like I know there are commercial products that solve this but like we're proposing bringing this back to the open source community I have a suggestion sorry it's a Thomas from MIT so so a couple of things uh so yes supply chain is very general but I'm seeing multiple use cases that talk about supply chain everything from signed you know firmware for chipsets you know in the do d space you know all the way to the music guys you know doing open music would it be useful if hyper ledger could define a transaction format that's generic enough that could be used in any of these environments because I gotta believe they have you know all of these have commonalities right just you know is it is it a format that has the sender and receiver addresses with a bunch of you know back pointers links you know what is it and I think you know it would be awesome to have this because it saves so much time yeah and that that actually is the fundamental intent here and and I want to emphasize that like those problems like have been thought about and worked on and in many ways solved outside of blockchain and so this is a matter like bringing you know businesses have been transacting digitally for a while and like four data formats have been agreed to now maybe there's opportunities to refine that but like how do we how do we just enable those types of use case so just to get back to a little bit about the project so there are are a couple things that that kind of constrain that that scope I think pretty naturally one is you know that that uh the the things that we're we're putting in are in some way blockchain related which constrains uh the the types of things that that we would put into the project um the other is that we're really looking for reusable components and and so as we as we get to um into into really specific use cases um there there may or may not be patterns there that that that are interesting to implement uh so they can be reusable um and then the third is that as a platform the components all have to work together which will naturally uh I think drain uh the types of things that like that we did um hi this is this is Silas um so I'm I'm maybe also having a bit of a hard time with the the potential breadth of supply chain as an umbrella um so a couple of points on that I wonder what what code currently exists are there any concretions that you can describe that might give a bit of color to this and what if this was uh put into incubation what what would land on day zero if anything um and then another remark is a lot of this seems to be uh perhaps centered around business process are we sure that the idea of the supply chain as the as an umbrella project is what we want here are there smaller projects that we could see the shape of first no if you're talking about standardizing around transactions or the nouns of things or if you're talking about standardizing uh running like business process models on a chain um do we need to go in with supply chain to start with yeah I mean if it's a semantic question about the name like we can talk about that but to get to the concretions like the nouns in particular and we spoke to this a little bit earlier but uh you know things like customer or things like like counterparty or party somehow some sort of construct like that uh constructs like product or material uh that that might be used process true process enablement and business rules uh to me feel like an application right we're talking about we're talking about reusable components that can be assembled into into a into an application and the specific this logic would be implemented at an app layer that would tie these these primitives together in ways that you know business business process modeling is not an app level thing you know if you look at standard like bpmn that's kind of what I had in mind yeah yeah I mean help me understand though why why wouldn't existing standards for supply chain apply I type you know I I mean there are a number of industry standards that are already existent they're implemented in most of the supply chain solution space that we have today why wouldn't why wouldn't we just why wouldn't a supply chain solution just reuse those things um I mean it's not like people are coming along and doing another ISO you know 2020 or 2022 they're not they're just using that can I throw out an example I'm working with a company that does raw raw material aggregation uh to uh to enhance the ability to negotiate with the suppliers multiple tiers down so there are very siloed solutions and this particular company does not have blockchain yet but they're interested in taking a look to see how it could apply when you're trying to get your suppliers to purchase from the same uh that that material raw material from the same supplier uh so there are very specific supply chain vendors siloed that can be looked at to see if they are willing to work in an open source environment to blockchain enable their solution right but but and I don't know if that was like honestly the ISO comment if that was supportive or objecting to the proposal but like the proposal absolutely to me is like yes these standards exist why aren't they implemented in open source and available in hyperledger already so if you want to use like existing like we all align like at cargo we align with industry standard data models and why isn't there just a hyperledger implementation of a g10 backed product or an eac backed product product that we can plug into with a smart contract that allows me to push and pull those off a blockchain but like if we build it why can't we contribute it like because we're gonna it's just a matter of like like where does it go so just just to clarify is there any existing code right now yeah sure there's some code and I think like we started to I mean it's internal in a lot of cases and we've been debating about where to upstream it and but like it's not production ready but I think this is a proposal for an incubation although we do run some of it oh yeah well just to spend on this yeah there's also existing code that I linked in the proposal that came from a track and trace usage so there's stuff about telemetry and so forth that's already built but I know I'm definitely interested in facilitating Cargill's contributions to expand on that existing code I want to make a few comments this is Mohan with chain yard so you know one of it is like we have been also trying to do something similar but for our own projects so we've been doing supply chain projects in manufacturing retail supply of collaborations and but we noticed that in each one of these scenarios just you know even within the same scenario the object that we designed does not map to a new organization that joins the network or wants to join the network so you we have been trying to see what is that bare minimum set of attributes that can be reused and we've been progressing in that space now coming back to Chris's comments you know there are like standards like Rosetta net ebxml you know edi standards and supply chain one of the things that I noticed is that you know the blockchain is yet another addition for the purpose of trust and it's in many cases people you know I noticed that solution developers are using it as though it's a transactional system we actually have been seeing it as more as a system of trust you know in the past it used to be mdm master data management but master data management has been very siloed so the blockchain could serve as a trusted mdm so that's the direction we've been progressing in most of the projects but I'm happy to discuss with you all whenever you have sessions on this and if this proposal really moves forward I'm done sorry thank you for that so I had a question that I asked can can you all compare the so the most the most direct comparison that we have in existing projects is probably composer can you all compare the the scope of this project with sort of composer um yeah I can maybe get us started because I might be more familiar with composer than than Dave would be but I would I think of composers as a tool that was meant to help people get ramped into blockchain and then do code generation on their behalf and letting them try to turn their ideas about what the business processes were or the uh business considerations into blockchain code I think some of what we want to do with with this supply chain project is to not necessarily do code generation in the way that composer would have but to still facilitate uh encoding those more business level concerns that you would eventually want to do in delivering an application would it be possible for you guys to maybe add a little bit about this in your project proposal because this really wasn't clear for me when I read the proposal yeah Dave have I misconstrued that at all no I don't think so and we can revisit the proposal I mean if that if that's the process as we refine the proposal like yeah typically we'll yeah typically we get feedback in these meetings and then there's usually some suggested edits we can refine the proposal to add clarifications or or otherwise the one most important thing I'd like to see would be a non-generic name for the project I think it's very important to give it a cutesy bizarre and completely unmarketable name um there's no risk of either people confusing this as the only supply chain project uh that would ever be hosted at hyperlature nor as the official one you know that sort of thing of course yeah we know that the the name the baby process is is fun but also time consuming so a bunch of names in the hat and pull it out and yeah to be clear like we're just trying to get like we didn't cargo did not have an expectation around naming one thing that would be interesting to me would be to have some references to the to these existing standards and references that you might see this as an implementation of or implementing parts of just for my own understanding and and perhaps as a way to further constrain the project and that might provide a nice way of also sort of sequencing what the expectations are for deliverables sure and that makes sense I I do think there's a notion of uh and I think this is maybe a circular conversation and I want to respect the time boxing but different different types of supply chains might have different types of industry models that are relevant and like where would those be housed is maybe an interesting question for this group as this thinking evolves so for example in the food and ag space there are there are existing data standards around things like traceability and importing and exporting of commodities cross borders and like those are the existing data models and and and consensus driven or consortium driven standards and so like we can enumerate a bunch of those here but that is by no means exhaustive and somewhat like the some semiconductor supply chain might use some other standard that like cargo has no insight into and that this shouldn't necessarily constrain this project to implementing only a certain list of standards if that makes sense yeah this is this is James Mitchell I think it's really hard to draw a box around that feature list I think it's much easier to rally around a guiding principle for what makes sense as a reusable component and you know the governing principle there is you know general common reusability abstraction things that are going to be broadly applicable to a number of different application developers and so as Dave mentioned right the the intent here is this could be a rallying point for lots of different contributors to a common open source implementation of some of these concepts so when we talk about things like product and like maybe the mutation of that products that goes through a manufacturing process you know those feel like really fundamental concepts and it really would be a shame a if there were an open source solution for for that that that that concept and be if everyone went and built their own in silos and so it really feels to me you know very much the promise of you know kind of hyper ledger to say let's let's create a place where the community can come together and and help collaborate on some of these solutions that can benefit everybody so do we see if this became a project do we see it being limited to this specific vertical or would it encompass you know the different verticals as you mentioned I guess yeah I feel like those those are governance questions that would have to be addressed by the hyper ledger group as things of all immature well I guess I would say that there isn't a specific vertical called out here so Cargill definitely has probably their own vertical interests and so on and so forth but I don't think that this well I know that this proposal isn't specifically around food or silicon or any any individual industry specific concern I'm very confused isn't it you sort of said both in the same paragraph there I'm not quite sure right I understood the question well this is one of the things that's interesting to me is it seems like there is kind of a generic tokenization of assets in a privacy or confidentiality for doing with it's very blockchain centric and important not as a specific vertical that this project seems to touch on but we're trying to figure out which part of it is kind of the in support of a SIG a first supply chain versus which part is kind of the generic tools constructs yeah I think generic tool tools is maybe an interesting word it's really we see it as more component or implementation of a of a shared resource like a shared library so like product is a really good example of that right so like if we if ever effectively every use case that we've explored we end up trying to define how we're going to store a product that's moving through the supply chain or transform a product as it moves through the supply chain and so internally we've built out concretions it was the word somebody is but let's say implementations of how to how to get a product on and off of a hyper ledger solution and so like bringing that framework to hyper ledger and contributing it back to open source to say this is the spec compliant implementation of this of product if you want to conform to this iso model or this other agreed upon standard we've implemented it like having the community do that feels feels very natural to me right and so like we're like that would be part of this this month now that doesn't solve that doesn't implement a business process that doesn't solve an application that doesn't enable an industry model it provides a building block or component that someone could use to go do that right but that's a very that's a very specific thing and I don't think I mean in fact I think there's actually some things going on in the labs that are sort of along those lines where somebody says here's an interesting thing you know we've developed it it's based on this and you're free to use it and that's a wonderful thing it's a very different thing to try and establish something as a top level project here and not have it get into specific solution domain in this particular context at least I don't I don't see how that works out right I mean and I'll just say like as a participant that really feels like semantics and so like where this group or where the governing board like sees where the proper semantic place for these reusable components is like totally I can defer to that but I mean that that just feels like like when you say like that feels like a top level prior to not a thought like whatever man like where does the library go that we're gonna like all share well and and just just to be clear I think you know again you know we invest in marketing and so forth around our top level projects and and we give them a lot of focus and a lot of support from infrastructure and so forth and and it's you know it's it's different than people who just want to share something under an open source license that's consistent with everything else we're doing here and and not looking for you know you know so the the added yeah sorry to to cut in we'll give you more less the the last word on that Chris or we will have and we'll have to cut over now to the caliper update so I appreciate Dave making time to join us here new contributor into this meeting and we can follow additional conversation in chat and the mail list switching rather abruptly to caliper do we have the presenter still available there hi dan this is victor hi victor thanks for joining us again yeah because we I didn't have the chance for from last meeting so I will always be here waiting yes and I'm sorry that we weren't able to manage our time better last week please feel free to jump into it I've pasted the link to your update into the tsc channel in the in the chat hyperletcher.org so do you need to open the link I'm not sharing my screen we'll trust for people to follow along on their own screens you're welcome to share your screen if you wanted to guide us through it otherwise we'll just let you speak to it while we look at it ourselves I've sent the the update link in the chat box so everyone can look into it when I'm introducing so first for project hails actually we the caliper project has made some problems in last quarter for we lost two major developers because they shifted their work so the project has been started for some time and we have some pending peers and answered the questions and I think at the monitor meeting I have talked with many community experts and they really gave me a lot of good advices so in this two weeks caliper team has took multiple means to improve the project house and we have reviewed and merged and closed most of the pending peers we only left several peers still on the development unclosed and we need some time to recover so we introduced new contributors and containers and we started having online meetings and to discuss and we should make some rules for the project development to be more formal and complete some missing missing things in our previous development procedures so I think the project is recovering and it will become active again so for issues I have talked a lot about issues so there is no new issues at this time and releases caliper is still under development so everybody works on master branch no release yet and though the project has been silent for some time we still did a lot of work in the past quarter because we have active user using caliper and they are pushing us to implement a lot of features so so there are some features like caliper awareness has been greatly improved and during our long time running test we found some memory leak and other issues so they are all fixed and now caliper can run up to 24 hours on the board and we added a lightweighted development network and added an event subscription subscription approach for sotus and thanks for the assistance and caliper client has been split into two one for sending transactions and one to listen for the events in the past it was done by one single client and there are two features has been implemented but it's not uploaded or upstreamed to caliper yet one is using c++ to rewrite the transaction sending process and which greatly improves transaction sending rates for one single client so in the past we have distributed clients to use multiple clients to sending transactions but this is focused to enhance the single client and we added a we enhanced the resource monitor in the past we use a process or docker resource monitor and this time we integrated standalone resource monitoring tool grafana and it provides a better UI and collects more metrics so that's great one question i see for you victor on on chat from heart is what is the current level of communication between caliper and the performance and scale working group uh well i think we also made a plan that uh for at least forever performance and working as a credibility working group who meeting at least one representatives from caliper team will be there that's great to hear um and then uh i'll ask to you to go ahead and coordinate with mark Wagner to make sure that the the time zones for that are as manageable as possible for for all the participants yeah we've had a tele from budapest has been joining the call in the last couple calls he's one caliper he's one of the caliper maintainers now great all right um if there's further questions or uh comments i'll ask you to take those again to chat or the mail list and we will switch over at this point to the fabric update and chris mentioned that he is ready to prepare that and i'll go ahead and drop that link into the hyper ledger chat thanks again victor thanks dan so um dan's pasting the link in i guess into the tsc chat um so in terms of the fabric update we continue to i think to grow and mature um where we just delivered last week our 1.3 release um a little bit late but there was this small matter of a hurricane and uh that whacked north carolina pretty heavily and that's where most of the sort of the system level testing was was being done and so we had to um we had to push that off a little bit um but we're on track i think for 1.4 release um uh the the just sort of the tldr version of this is that we did increase the percentage of uh there are the ratio i should say of you know ibmers versus non ibmers um it bumped up about six percent again it's not that many individuals we didn't actually lose non ibmers we actually gained a couple of um ibmers in the in the mix there's a bit of transition going on with some people moving around but um i think uh you know we also got some pretty good feedback at the member summit and at the hackfest about some things we can do to try and and uh you know continue to increase the diversity of the project we continue to see a good mix of questions on you know email and chat stack overflow you know that continues to rage and there's a there's a good population of people that are helping to answer a lot of these questions which is a good thing um uh we again you know the members of we had a lot of discussion around you know issues that sort of inhibit new people from coming on board um the the one theme that seemed to really stand out was the the the the you know the the plethora of chat channels that we have certainly for fabric and it's sometimes daunting for people to figure out where where they should answer ask a question or maybe they'll ask a question but you know then it's a little bit of cricket sometimes depending on when they ask it or you know whether anybody was paying attention because there's so much traffic um and it sort of spins off and so sometimes questions go answer unanswered because they've already scrolled past the you know the window of what's in your display and um and and people aren't going back so um i i've actually you know proposed that we try and reduce the number we got a little bit of pushback i think we still have some discussion to go to figure out how we can you know improve things in that regard and um certainly i'm trying to participate in the sort of the community health discussion around you know what tools can we use to improve our ability to conduct conversations that are not quite as ephemeral as you get with chat but sometimes you want to have you know things pushed out to email for instance so that others can share in it um and so we're we're looking at some of those things to try and improve some of the the communication uh and and and trying to figure out how do we again how do we onboard new people and how do we grow you know new maintainers in the community uh over time um you know so we're in terms of releases we're continuing down the sort of the quarterly release cadence um our 1.4 releases due out in December um and we're expecting that to be our first long-term support release which we'll support for a year back porting bug fixes um as appropriate for a year while we continue to move on with uh you know sort of quarterly release cadence of new features and functionality and so forth um that's that's basically that's basically it you know again we continue to plan uh on our JIRA dashboard uh we try to make it a little bit clear there's actually now a single JIRA dashboard that I've linked in from here that shows all of the epics that we're tracking for the next um set of releases to make it a little bit easier to figure out exactly what's going on at any given time but you know because there is so much sometimes it's just um it is daunting and we're trying to figure out how do we how do we improve that comments questions anyway there well I guess I'll I'll fill a little bit of violence there I noticed uh the same tension in the the uh the channels that I monitor on chat that uh there is that tough balance that uh more narrow channels allow for deeper discussion in specific topics but uh I think I guess in in aggregate there's only so many messages any one person can can try I mean I got a lot of that stuff in my uh rocket chat I just don't I don't have the time to go back and even read sometimes I just clear it out um because there's just there's too much yeah yeah and I think that's something we discussed in Montreal and the community health aspects that I think it's a generic problem for hyper ledger not something each individual project should should need to solve on its own yeah and that's what I say I'm I'm working with Tracy and Dave and and rye on some thoughts about tools that we might use uh you know um you know we have Tracy did a little bit of research to come up with like tools that we could use to sort of capture meetings in rocket chat um and then archive that off and then we can use it to actually put it out into an email or something like that that could then you know have a follow on conversation and email which is a little bit easier to track than looking you know trying to search back in in rocket chat history um we also have the problem that none of the stuff is threaded unfortunately um you know slack threading sucks too maybe even I mean in some ways I think it's worse but um chat is hard and I think you know mark to your point generally open source really hasn't come to grips with how chat is supposed to work for open source most of it is you know I think if you go back to the IRC days the IRC was just a it's just a place to hang out it was like the water cooler you know and sometimes there was you know quick hey you know where's this or is that kind of a thing um but for the most part it's the water cooler and um and and all conversations were held in email and now everybody's expecting to do chat and have immediate gratification of their questions because there's chat and I think you know Brian to your point um that it's not the greatest thing when you're going back and forth having a discussion about how something should work or whatever maybe it's not the best so yeah it's definitely a good topic for community health development uh thanks for the update Chris and we have our remaining seven or so minutes for Andy to walk us through uh the sawtooth update Andrea Gunderson is joining us in this meeting for the first time as well so welcome Andy hey guys um all right so sawtooth um we're doing good uh we are preparing for our 1.1 release this month um and there's a good list of new features that um we've developed over the last quarter um those include pdf t consensus raft consensus um continuing work to uh report to rust um there's also continual work on saver our smart contract and lazum um specifically around smart permissions which if we have time I'll talk about a little bit more later um we also have some more documentation and support for running sawtooth in kubernetes um documentation updates and as we had mentioned we were going to do last update we have split out uh most of our SDKs um the sides python and rust into their own refos um also sawtooth next directory is pretty active which is cool um as far as issues go most of the ones we had mentioned before we've given our the updates any of those issues but we do have a new issue whereas our community grows um we have dropped our sprint planning meeting and there's now no single meeting that gathers all of our maintainers together um as far as releases we were able to get our 1.0.5 bug fix release out we had mentioned that we were going to do a 1.0.6 but we've decided to cancel that in favor of focusing on our 1.1 release um we also have a branch out of what our 1.1 release is going to look like um but that's not going to be its own release um so the next release will be 1.1 the thing I want to highlight from the activity overall activity is we have added our asia friendly time slot for our application developer calls um and then yeah current plans getting a 1.1 out which includes the consensus engine um multi language consensus support um raft enhanced documentation and a lot of that rust conversion um for performance enhancements um as well as poet 2 and pbft are still going under some work so as those are completed they will be a part of that as well um currently working towards getting saver again our wasm smart contracts into a 1.0 state as well as adding um smart permissions which I'll just give a very quick overview of what that is um we are providing usable contracts within saver um one is going to be called pike um and that allows you to define agents and organizations and the roles that those agents are allowed to provide um the roles that those agents have within organizations and then that mixed with saver allows you to upload what we're calling smart permissions or wasm codes to the blockchain and then within a smart contract you can um provide organization specific permissioning around different functionality within the same transaction processor um so I tried to go over that quickly so if anyone has more questions about that let me know um but besides that we're continuing to work on converting sawtooth to rust um and then also uh Dan had brought up that there was interesting conversation Montreal around um evolutionary test nets um to be able to identify more stability issues as well as make them more security centric um maintainer diversity is good it's uh about equally distributed between bitwise al car gill intel and two mobile yeah any questions hey andy just uh um I get two for you um one is what's the status of the rust conversion and um how much is actually going in the one one release um I believe there's conversation about this on rocket chat yesterday where it looks like we're about 40 percent conversion um so if you look in specifically what was already converted I think was mentioned in um sawtooth release channel on rocket chat okay I go back I got that then um second question um is you know okay it's the test net question um this seems to come up every time we talk about um potentials for long-term testing um uh is there a plan or is this just something we're going to continue to discuss so I can take that one because we had some face-to-face discussion in Montreal um and the loose plan that we came up with there was let's get um some starter test net going where we're we're raising nodes in different organizations that are interested in sawtooth and we'll be doing just some some of the the basic integration testing style transactions that we do in our integration networks but now across some different organizational boundaries and once we learn some of the things that we'll need to do in order to scale that out across additional organizations then the idea is to get to more what you had initiated a couple years ago Mick with the game and look at more security focused use of the test net where we're trying to incentivize people through some sort of game to steal tokens or something of that nature okay and and again my you know the the game stuff aside I think we've had discussions about how to make the migration from you know things like bug bounties and others how to actually get real-world testing of the applications and and so my my real my real underlying question is how are we evaluating um long-term security at both application and platform level um on on sawtooth and others but I think that's a bigger question than than um than this so you know the test net is just one expression of that I think for me yeah I think this is a good reminder for me to pick up the conversations that it started in Montreal with the the stakeholders who expressed interest and actually get some of these first test nets launched now there had been a discussion on the mailing list a month or two back about test nets in general at the hyperledger level not just at each project level is is that something we're still going to pursue or is that going to be up to each project to come up with our own test net can I jump in here um this is Dave Hughesby so we're putting together the budget for 2019 and I was actually just queuing up emails to send out to people to ask about this because I'm going to try to come up with some numbers around what we were willing to spend on doing test nets because I keep hearing it from a lot of people so um yeah I was considering putting it in the in the budget and making that a thing next year so Dan can we queue up the discussion for next tsc that sounds like a great topic and that does also bring us to the end of the time so we'll we'll look at that and a few other topics for next week thank you for everybody for joining thanks all thanks everybody