 Of course. Okay. Thank you, Alex. Hello delegates. I hope you are doing well. Today we welcome our third speaker, a civic hacker and Taiwan's digital minister in charge of social innovation. Audrey is known for revitalizing the computer of languages, Pearl and Haskell, as well as building the online spreadsheet system, EtherCalc in collaboration with Dan Bricklin. In the public sector, Audrey served on Taiwan National Development Council's Open Data Committee and KTOV Curriculum Committee and led the country's first e-roll marking project. In the private sector, Audrey worked as a consultant with Apple on computational linguistics with Oxford University XCO Graphy and with social text on social interaction design. In the voluntary sector, Audrey contributed to Taiwan's GOV, a vibrant community focusing on creating tools for the civil society. Okay. So now can we all give a big round of applause and welcome our speaker, Audrey. Okay. Before that, so we can secure code on the screen. If you have any questions, please scan and pose your questions there. Thank you. Audrey, Ms. Tang, can you, can you give me a hand? Yes. Yes. Hi. I'm really happy to be here virtually with all the people to talk about whatever you want me to talk about. You see the agenda is determined by you. So please scan the QR code. And if you cannot scan the QR code for whatever reason, please visit this website, slido.com, that's S-L-I-D-O.com, and then enter the code 804. And once you are in the chat room, in the Slido chat room, you can ask pretty much any question there and a question that you see other people ask that you would also like to ask, simply press like. And a question with the most number of like will float to the top. And I will begin answering questions once we have a few questions starting from the top. And any given moment, you can ask more questions and the newest one will appear at the bottom right. And so this will go on until 5 to 10, type of time. And then at which point, you know, if there's questions left unanswered, apology in advance, but I'll re-demo. But if we do not have any new questions, we may actually end the session before time. Well, this has never happened, but anyway. So yeah, so please think of some questions. And then the organizer tells me that I need to mention our digital social innovation encounter coronavirus effort at least once. But don't let that limit your questions. I will somehow weave that answer into the answer of your questions, fulfilling the organizer's ask. So that's it. Please start asking questions. So first of all, Diana would like to know, from my experience, can I explain the link between the coding language and spoken languages? How interconnected are they? This is a great question. So I think I'll begin with this simple idea that when we first started programming, the programming language, we're inevitably shaped by the language that we first learned. My first computer language is logo, and logo is a very interesting language that basically moves a small cursor that's nicknamed a turtle on the screen. And the language has a very simple vocabulary that you say turn left, the turtle turns left. You say move forward, the turtle moves forward while leaving a trail. And then you can go backward as well. And it has very simple loops. And like you can say repeat something once, twice, five times. And so it's very easy for it to start drawing geometric shapes like a tree or pentagram or whatever. And so that's really interesting because the computer language, the coding language that I learned I was eight years at a time correspond almost perfectly to an intuitive understanding like you tell the turtle to do something. So this is my first experience with computer languages, which is making sure that I can shape the interaction, the reality, if you will, on the screen of people's interactions because many people can look at the same logo, the same turtle at once. And so it's in building me a sense that by writing program, what used to only be in my mind can be a shared space for everybody to interact. Not unlike how Slido currently and WebEx of course defines the way that we interact. And so I think the link between the coding and spoken languages are then two-vote. First, when I write code, it is also for other programmers to read. And when people write code, they don't start from scratch, not even if they're programming in scratch, but rather they almost always remix other people's works. And so in that sense, it's not unlike any written language. On the other hand, the machine would take the written language and interpret it just like a performer of an instrument will perform the musical notes written by the composer. But instead of a kind of melody that fulfills people's spiritual needs, this is a melody of interaction that defines the reality or at least a little bit of reality of how people interact. And so the interconnection is very strong. As I think the just one famous programmer said, the more you can use your native language, natural language, the better you're a programmer. A programmer of the programming language's ability is kept only by the fluency of which they can use the normal language, the natural language. On the other hand though, the programming languages has another property, as I said, a normativity that if people's projection of what they think are the best way to interact is joined by many people just as we currently joined on Slido and it shapes what's transparent, what's opaque, what's possible, for example, upvoting, what's not possible, for example, pressing reply. And so that will also shape the social reality in a way that is may not be conscious as with the legal normativity because if you follow a legal rule or regulation or whatever, there's also always room for interpretation and appeal. But for algorithm, that is for programming code, there is no such room. And so we need to use the programming language, I think, even more carefully and with even more participation and accountability than spoken languages. I hope that answers some of the questions. Feel free to ask follow-ups. So two people would like to know, in my experience, how is civil activism more and more closely tied with the internet? Another really good question. My first experience with the World Wide Web was in, I think, 93. And at that moment, I thought the World Wide was just places where people can share their academic papers or to share whatever hobbies they have. I joined my first club that I joined in the World Wide Web with a club of people sharing tips on how to memorize pi, that is the pi ratio to 100 decimal places, which is a very harmless hobby. But anyway, so none of this qualifies as civil activism. But then I also observed that people come to trust each other very swiftly, even over harmless things like memorizing the decimal places of pi. And then people start to identify with this imagined community. That's why, or maybe because, that we have never met face to face. And so when the Blue Ribbon campaign started, that's the Communication Decency Act passed in the US that has a clause that basically said, any bulletin board system administrator need to make sure that they censor their speech by making sure that everybody who can post is either an adult, and I was just 13 years old, 14 back then, or that they're shielded from possible indecent material. Now, of course, the pi club has nothing to do with violence, graphic violence, or pornography, but people feel that they're a collateral because they have to start censoring, start doing age checks, start doing real name checks or whatever of the community. And I, as someone who lives in a very different country, and definitely not an adult, will then pay the price by having myself excluded from many forums and many communities. And so people felt very strongly about it actually and started the Blue Ribbon campaign. And suddenly all the websites that I frequently visit, a lot of them start turning their pages black and starting to feature this hyperlink, the Blue Ribbon, so that you can click and learn more about the Communication Decency Act. And so this is the first civil activism that I encountered on the World Wide Web. And it very quickly educated a lot of us about how the First Amendment works, how the US Constitution is designed, how the Bill of Rights works, and so on. So I got this US politics education really in this Blue Ribbon campaign when I was 14 years old in time one. And so, and it was successful. I mean, eventually the Supreme Court wrote that part unconstitutional. And we left with a internet that is largely self-government rather than government government for the next decade or so. And so I think whatever we learned during that very horizontal is almost like a hashtag, right? Just like a hashtag, Blue Ribbon, the Blue Ribbon icon. You can use it without asking anyone's permission. That starts to weave with the very new post-presidential election Taiwan that is starting from 1996 when President Lee Dong-hui first started to basically open up openly contested presidential elections. People who campaign online would then start to learn from the Blue Ribbon campaign and other campaigns in a way to invent catchy phrases, memes, hashtags, and so on for their presidential candidates. And that started in 1996. So quite unique in Taiwan, democracy and internet for us are not two things. But rather they are interwoven together because before the internet, there was no democracy to speak of in Taiwan. We were still under the martial law. And before the war, there was no direct presidential election. Now fast forward to the age of mobile phone and people discover that instead of being confined in computer classes or on their desks, they can now go to the street while being connected to the internet. So we have one of the first largest flash mobs in Taiwanese history, that is the Hong Zhongqiu event or the so-called Silver Cross event. When people protested of the administrative defense lack of transparency when it comes to a Hong Zhongqiu incident. And so a quarter million people occupied the Cataclyne Street bouvant and there was this overhead photo of a people holding up their mobile phone in the night and the silver light basically permeated on the street. A lot of my friends were there in 2013 and because they were just holding a Coast Cup, a conference on open source coders, users and promoters. And while they did join that parade, that protest, they discovered that the mobile internet simply doesn't work because at the time we're still in 3G network on the street. So their mobile phone could be used as a light torch, I'm sure, but that's also because nobody could actually connect to the internet on the street with that high A density. And so for the next six months, we would work on a collective document that tries to imagine if we have a half a million people on the street and many more online, how to connect it to. And so at the end, it culminated to the sunflower movement with indeed half a million people online, but we were prepared. We used the at the time very new Ymax network, which will serve its purpose and be replaced by 4G network. But it's a bootstrapping network that we can use to make people on the street still connect to the internet online with a lot of Wi-Fi repeaters and people who occupy the parliament can then for the first time, instead of just guessing what's happening in the occupied parliament, they can see through walls in a sense because we set up the projectors on the street so that people can see the occupied parliament. There's even a stenographer, a team of stenographers, court reporters that types whatever being deliberated in the occupied parliament. So it serves as truly a parliament for Poglet for deliberation and more than 20 NGOs on the street use the same horizontal network to connect themselves together to deliberate about all aspects of the cross trade service and trade agreement, including whether in the new 4G network, we need to allow PRC, people's Republic China regime components or not. The answer was no on the street. And after three weeks of Occupy, I think people who are online who look at a live stream and participate to the parliament helped keeping this non-violent because everybody's watching keeps the police force honest because they counter-surround the police all the time and ultimately deliver the set of four demand, not one less, the consensus of the sunflower that was then ratified by the head of parliament. So the Occupy was a success. And so there's a very brief short glimpse of how the internet-led civil society activism can link to the street by having the internet connectivity right there on the street. And so we would of course later on help people around the world who want to have this form of organization online and help them with the logistics and so on and export so-called sunflower technology. Five people would like to know what inspired me to join politics rather than solely focusing on my research. What you see in my research is on social interaction design. And so the burning question that led me to the internet community in the first place was the question of swift trust. Why would people place trust in each other? Because of psychological projection, gestalt, imagined community, there's many different hypotheses back in the late 90s of why people online can collaborate so much easier than people who meet face to face. And that is by my research question. And so that would lead me, as I mentioned, to the Blue Ribbon Campaign, to the World Web Consortium, to the Internet Engineering Task Force, and to the Pearl Community. And all of them have in common this open innovation model where the political apparatus is basically meritocracy. Anyone who have a good point and an email address could be invited as code makers, that is to say law makers, in the Internet Engineering Task Force. Moreover, when everybody started to think along the common lines and nobody has the coercive power of stopping new innovation from happening, rough consensus and running code, that is to say, we agree on something that we broadly have an idea and we can live with it. We don't have to sign a treaty or a fine consensus, but rather there's just something barely enough for the coders to start doing their work. That sort of political process became far more superior than the old top-down way of dictatorship or voting, which is majority rule or whatever previous political systems that came before it. It's a new political system enabled by the internet and used to govern the internet even to this day. And so that's political. And so I was immersed in this political system for, I think, five years before I even cast my first vote legally. And so that's kind of my indigenous political system that's always shaped my thinking. And so I'm basically currently doing is projecting what I've been learning since I was 15 years old and my research that's rough consensus, civic participation, and the idea of radical transparency in my daily work as a channel from this new way of policymaking to the common people, to the common ground. And bringing, empowering, as I learned on the internet, the people who are the most innovative are the actually people who use the technology the most, not the people who code the technology. And so open source, the term is invented as a fork, as a rebranding of the free software movement to emphasize that if all the people can co-create code instead of treating users as users, we can treat users as fellow citizens that have good ideas of how it may work. And so open innovation model around the late 90s was the main topic in my entrepreneurship, making tools that people can collaborate together like the collaborative spreadsheet that I worked with Denver Clean, inventor of spreadsheet or like Google Docs and things like that. And it will also culminate into a suite of collaboration software that is then packaged together as a cyber security software called Sandstorm at sandstorm.io and it's all free software, everything is open source and everybody who have an idea saying, let's collaborate on ordering lunchboxes together, they can very simply write a software and put it into the secure sandbox for everybody to share in the same sandstorm platform. And that's what I brought into the cabinet as the digital minister. So the lunchbox ordering app is actually one of the most popular one across the ministries. And any public servant can then serve the public by sharing their favorite tools like hack and dee from the civil society and bring it into the public service. And so I would say that I'm a politician only in the sense of the internet politics. And I'm still doing the internet politics is just with a lot more people to collaborate together across the public service around the world. Five people would like to know what do you think of the future of digital innovation will look like and what challenges will there be? Excellent question. So I think digital innovation is just the first two letters in our DG plus plan. The DIGI plan starts with digitalization and innovation, but it also complemented with governance and inclusion. So DIGI very easy to remember. And so I think in Taiwan, the governance and inclusion of digital innovation is the most important value. We need to make sure that when we're pushing out, for example, 5G, that that's a core digitization technology and the innovation that could be enabled by 5G technology. For example, a very low latency interaction, co-presence, virtual and augmented reality, self-driving vehicles and so on, that it benefits people across the country, not just the people in large municipalities. In fact, the idea of what we call the more remote, the more advanced says that we need to first deploy such technologies in the places that are suffering the most from the lack of transportation. And so on health and on education and so on. And that's inclusion. And then governance also important. We need to make sure that people understand, as I mentioned, the norms that's being shaped by those new technologies, and that to make sure that people can broadly agree in a sandbox, that is to say, a limited time, limited risk experimentation field of how to interact with, say, self-driving vehicles. What kind of social signals do this vehicle need to share with the people in the surroundings? What kind of accountability account they need to give when they make a decision? Should it yield first to the elderly or to the children? In Taiwan, it should first yield to the elderly. But in Boston, the consensus whether it should yield to the children using different social norms and so on. And so all of this is governance technology or RACTAC that we need to develop in tandem with the disruptive or quote unquote disruptive technology. And so the challenge is always that the people would not be interested enough to participate in the norm shaping. And that is why we make sure that the interesting conversations that we post, for example, there's a polis conversation going on right now actually, at polis, that's P-O-L-I-S, that's G-O-V-T-W slash ocean. And we ask people to share their norms around now that we have 5G, people can do much more work in the seaside, in the oceans and so on, while being connected to broadband internet. And what new future will it bring to us and how can we make sure that ocean is collectively governed and instead of just basically saying that you should not go to the oceans and you will be kept safe by the sea guard, that was the old stance and we're opening up the oceans. But how exactly that is for collective intelligence to inform us and for us to have a livestream deliberation on not only the information system but also on the legal code that regulates the ocean use. And so that's for me, the future of digital innovation is not just internet of things, it's internet of beings, oceans, mountains and so on, have a voice by people who care about them and that's plurality for me, not singularity. Brian and six other people would like to know, what do you think Taiwan has remained a more cash-based society compared to other places like the US and do you think there will be a push towards mobile payments? Well, cash is very easy and readily available in Taiwan because pretty much all the convenience stores have an ATM and the convenience stores is very densely packed in Taiwan, more than 12,000 of them. And so in all the ATMs, because it's so easy to withdraw and nowadays to deposit cash, it's not considered difficult to get cash and so the mobile payment needs not only to be more convenient than the easy card or credit card payments which is already quite difficult if you add to it a QR code or a fingerprint or a retina scanner on your phone, for example, that's already taking longer time than the easy card. So not only it need to be easier than easy card, it also need to be easier to access and more featureful than the ATM and convenience store which is already very featureful. And so I think this is great because then it makes the innovators innovate truly on the ways that are very convenient to people. For example, I finally switched to mobile payment most of the time when the Android system that I use finally switched to not requiring any fingerprint or password or QR codes. I can just unlock the phone or if it's already unlocked, I don't have to do anything and I just put the phone to the post system and that's like maybe half a second and that's finally a shorter time compared to the easy card or cash and that's great. And we also mess with innovators for example that do this post payment on their watch or even on the ring. But if it's a ring, you have to move very close to the post system because at the time the regulation said that the maximum distance is I think 1.25 centimeter up to three centimeters at most for some devices. So if you move your fingers very close to the post machine you will actually hurt your fingers and then we of course adjusted a regulation so you can more easily like five centimeters away already do the payment for these class of devices. So our work is to make sure that the new innovations do not get hampered by regulations but they really need to compete with really convenient access to cash, almost no fake money and also a very easy to use easy card. And so yeah, there's of course going to be a push to our mobile payment but it's never to the exclusion to cash and easy card and credit card payments. They need to innovate also. So all the different payment methods would innovate and race to become more convenient to people and we do not legislate or regulate based on the device but rather we regulate and legislate based on the convenience it offers to the people. And that's opposed to other jurisdictions of course because other jurisdictions may have a preference of particular forms of payments and because of course their access to cash or access to easy card wasn't that easy to begin with but that's particular to that jurisdiction it's not something linear that we compete. John would like to know as a unschooler myself what's my take on modern higher education? Excellent question. So I quit junior high and to start a company but also to attend graduate level classes in universities and many of my professors, I call them my professors even though I don't have a enrollment or a degree because I think there are really people who collaborate with me on my research. And so if you have a research question university student or not degree or not universities higher education will always be your community. I still publish to open access journals on V-Taiwan on the social archives or archive.org even after becoming a digital minister. And so I think universities serve of course the dual purpose right as a research community academic community as well as a school for people to get a degree. I personally have zero experience of the second part but I think the first part is as vibrant as ever and nowadays with ideas like university social responsibility or USR people in universities get a degree or do a research program based on how they can serve as think tech of their local community and solve structural problems based on the sustainable development goals. And so you can see a lot of social entrepreneurs working closely with higher education and their products. And I promise this is just what I see close to my desk. This is not prearranged and definitely not a product placement. But this is I think from the eastern part of Taiwan and they roll out this rice, black rice that revitalizes the land and working with the university social responsibility programs they collaborate with the three of the 17 sustainable goals and with a QR code for people to understand the story. And the reason why they can work so well in such a short time as young entrepreneurs winning a lot of awards is that they work closely with the university, the higher education people that specialize in agriculture technology in food safety, in participatory accountability for organic farming and things like that. So I think the university give rise to new ways of giving rise to new ways of agriculture on the community. A lot of students just get their research program fulfilled and nowadays they can even get a graduate degree based on the social impact that they make to the community. I think that's one future of modern higher education is for everyone inclusive, lifelong and cross-discipline. Five people said do you think we should do more experimental education in Taiwan? Definitely. In Taiwan, experimental education is like the research arm of the education system is not only legal up to 10% of school children actually all the way to university now can basically ignore the curriculum, the national curriculum and writes their own personal or institutional or group curriculum and say okay we're going to try it out. And because the previous batch like the past three to five years of reports from the experimental education we already included them into the K212 curriculum last year. And so a lot of this autonomous learning interaction common good competence base instead of literacy base that is to say make sure that students are producers of media and data not consumers of media and data only and so on these were education experiments ideas but now they're firmly in the curriculum. So the more experimental education in Taiwan now start to explore more horizons. For example, the new situation that Taiwan now have more than 20 national languages most of which indigenous and so people will start experimental schools in the for example, Amis region of the indigenous lands and start teaching like math, physics, whatever in Amis and then teaching English from Amis and basically ignore Bupamofa altogether. And so that's experimental because that's outside of our curriculum but more and more people are trying out these different cultural perspectives so that instead of saying, you know we need to catch up on the municipal education grade. They will say no, we start with Amis culture and we will talk to the international culture from our perspective. And that is I think one of the new horizon for experimental education is to empower the other national languages in a transcultural fashion. Five people said to be continued for those that are interested in cultivating our minds similarly, can you share your reading habits and how you choose what to consume? From several interviews I learned that you most likely educate yourself broadly and deeply to be the foundation of your ideas. You see, you know, this followed by that also works as your original intended order. Anyway, so yeah, I'll just take these two as the same question. My reading habits is really simple. I flip scheme books right before I go to sleep without pronouncing it aloud in my mind. So I do a quiet scan of the book. So the book that I read this way before going to sleep last night was from Postner and it's called the Demogogue. The Demogogue playbook, Demogogue's playbook I think. So the idea is that he starts from describing the US constitution, how Hamilton and other people, or I say Hamilton and other people because I'm a fan of the musical and the people who founded the constitution, the federalists designed the system so that it would not be captured by populists. They designed this slow moving Senate to keep a check to the faster moving house and so on. And then they outlined how through the party system which none of them imagined would happen, can capture the populist imagination and then basically interact with the political system through a different idea, basically anti-establishment, anti-institution idea. And so that's the gist of the argument and there's a lot of anecdotes from the early founding days of the United States and the US, I think National Bank assuming state debts and things like that. And so as you can see, I only remembered the key ideas and keywords but because I read on e-book. So for each keyword I will be able as I wake up, if I want to know more, the kind of constellation in my mind is already there. So I just have to search for the keyword in the e-book and then to expand on the details. So I didn't quite read all the words. At least I didn't remember them verbatim but I remember the structure, the core argument, the main idea and it's very time saving. It only took me maybe half an hour or less, maybe 20 minutes to skim a entire book this way. But I think that's only possible again, using digital technology. If it's a paper-based book with no full text search, this way of kind of a fractal like reading would not be possible because it makes sure that yeah, 20 minutes for the entire book because I don't pronounce it in my mind. I'm not limited by the words per minute that I can speak. I just get in the visual stimuli and process the comprehension while I sleep. So I have to sleep anyway, right? So I might as well use some of those sleeping hours as a word comprehension time. And so yeah, so that's I think my reading habit. So and how do I determine which book to read? I really don't have a method. I just follow interesting people and then these people, once they share the book they read, I read those books too. And books will lead me to more people. Like when I read the book Radical Market, that will lead me to a bunch of people, including Vitalik Buterin, who I already met anyway, but so Vitalik Buterin led me to Radical Market, a book, Vitalik being the creator of the Ethereum. And that will then lead me to Clain Weil and Danielle Allen. And Weil would lead me to the Radical Exchange Foundation, which I'm now a board member, Simon Slashy, digital minister by day and board member of such innovation organizations by night and well, or by date in New York where our foundation is formed. And that will lead me to Posna and the junior. And then Posna will lead me to Weil's new book, which the demo books play back. So that's this particular branch. So it's just like any social object, a social object leads me to people. People lead me to more social objects, to more people, to more social objects. So that's also a way to, for me, I guess, to learn more about my collaborators in the Radical Exchange Framework. Five people, I would like to know. Many schools around the world switch to their in-person classes to fully online courses due to pandemic. Do you think it will bring negative effect on children? Well, first of all, in Taiwan, we never had a large-scale experience of that. I mean, the school did delay for a couple of weeks, but that's because we need to make sure that all of the schools have the medical mask thermometers, the well soap, always the most important soap and sanitation sprays, and plastic shootings for lunch places, and so on. And that's people understand how to use mask properly. You use a mask to protect yourself from your own awash hands. That's also a critical piece of meme that's necessary to go with medical mask. So we prepare all that for a couple of weeks, and then the school open as usual. And the school semester ended again two weeks after originally scheduled around mid-July, but we never had a lockdown. And so I don't have any first-time experience of negative effect on children for fully online courses. On the other hand, though, as a researcher in fully online courses, I think we can mitigate most of the negative effects by having small study clusters. Like in a social innovation lab, my office really, we deliberately set up outdoor places, but with like transparent glass ceiling that protects from typhoon, of which there's a recent one that didn't quite go here. And then also people can still study there with very good Wi-Fi connection, 5G nowadays. And with projector, with everything that I need for an immersive experience, and with seatings arranged so that it's exactly one meter from each other, so that people don't have to wear a medical mask. And so with sufficient amount of satellite studying group like this, people can enjoy both in-person connections, as well as cloud connections, peer-to-peer connections across different spaces. And when the Minerva School, for example, visited Dr. Tsaiyuan, our president, again, we used their own forum software, but also with their ambassador, really, in a presidential office to serve as a bridge with me and the president, and so on. And so I think the fully online courses need to be complemented with at least some way to bring your surrounding, your vicinity, your ambience to the online space. If you have virtual reality like the XR space headset, that's the best because it doesn't need a controller and you can control using your hand. It's very light, you can wear it for like three or four hours and that's fully immersive, that's the best. But if you don't have a portable light VR device, I guess you can also substitute it with, for example, in Microsoft Teams, Geron Lanier, so-called father of VR, recently introduced in that software a mode where people can sit together. So instead of small squares like we currently are in WebEx, in together mode, each of us will be a person sitting next to each other on this auditorium looking into a very large mirror. And so we will have environmental cues like who is sitting to my left and to my right. And eye contact will actually make sense. And that's a very difficult thing to do in WebEx. At the moment, I have to place all of you on this row on top of my screen and mount the cam directly above it and look into the line between the top of my screen and the camera to maintain eye contact. And that's not a natural thing to do. But with together mode, you can much easier do it. And even if you do not have access to these technologies, there's also a new software that I use a lot recently called high fidelity that I own. And high fidelity avoids the problem of eye contact completely by portraying the classroom as a top-down view of a kind of same city or whatever, but a top-down view. So everybody is just a dear, dear head like a cup and a facing direction. And everybody wearing headphones can navigate in breakout groups or go to the pool or sofa or whatever and the acoustic attenuation that is to say, the sound that you hear is entirely dependent on which direction you're facing in the virtual space and the distance of people as compared to you. And you could play poker card games in that place collaboratively. So even if you do not have a high quality camera, you can still participate in virtual reality with audio only to have an immersive experience. So whether it's extended reality devices, whether it's together mode with a high end camera or whether it's high fidelity with audio only, I think the co-presence that together feeling is still very important for deliberation for facilitation. And the fully online classes can deliver some of that, but only if the teacher, the space designer is intentional in designing that otherwise, if it's WebEx only, I'm afraid that it will lose a lot of the immersion that people could feel as compared to they're in the same place. On the other hand, I mean, like the Q&A format, the slide format, that's fine because we're only sharing knowledge, we're not quite deliberating our common future as a class, right? So we're basically in the exploratory stage in design thinking terms. We're not quite on the define or deliver the convergent phases. But for convergent phases, you probably really need some sort of immersiveness, the co-presence feeling that I just alluded to. Four people would like to ask, will Taiwan be a leading force in cyber policy? If so, how? And if not, why? Well, Taiwan, of course, is already a leading force in cyber policy. Our counter-spun method requiring no legislation and our way of a arm's length organization to prevent abuse of, for example, children in online spaces without requiring a draconian takedown rule, a basically multi-stakeholder forum called IWIN that, again, is also exported to many countries. And our disinformation, counter disinformation ways, which is, again, multi-stakeholder, requiring no special law, but a norm that people would say, oh, in elections, we always publish the raw data of the campaign donation and expense. And when large social media platforms, I'll just say Facebook, we see that a lot of those advertisements go through Facebook without declaring its origin or its purpose. We sat down and had a talk with Facebook saying, look, this is our norm in Taiwan to publish the details, raw data of each individual expenditure and donation. And they, donation always need to come from domestic sources. Only citizens get to do campaign donation. And there's no way for us to inspect whether Facebook advertisements follow this and rule. So if you do not conform to our radical transparency standards, I'm afraid that you will face social sanction. And social sanction in Taiwan is a very powerful force, far more than legal enforcement, actually. So for the presidential election, Facebook just said, okay, for all the political advertisement, we're going to publish exactly as your norm requires the up to every minute detail. And so the dark patterns of foreign interference on election by hyperprecision targeting or counterfactual political advertisements and so on, they were actually not a problem in our presidential election on Facebook or on Twitter and Google, which simply refused to run political advertisement conforming to social norm. And this norm first negotiation is our main contribution in cyber policy. And the list go on, but I can see that there's many more questions now. So I will turn to the next question, but if you have a more detailed question, feel free to follow our slide. Five people ask, even authorized surveillance and subsequent acceptance of a surveillance state, what can civil activism achieve in keeping the US government accountable? Well, there's this old idea called sous-valence, that is to say counter-surveillance, when you suspect that you're being a surveilled by, say, the police. You can also wear a live streaming card to reveal to the general public what the state surveillance works like. And so to keep a tab on the surveillance with surveillance, that is always a recourse for civic activists. On top of that, I think keeping the government accountable can also go through what we call algorithmic accountability. That is to say, to make sure that there is a norm to demand, as I mentioned, campaign donation expense, political advertisements down to the criteria of the precision targets and so on, and then build a community around these data. In Taiwan, before our presidential election, thousands of people volunteered as fact checkers to make sure that all the presidential platforms, deliberations, debates, and so on, each and every candidate is rated and ranked by the down-truth statements that they espouse. And so, and the point is not just this tallying, but rather the fact that thousands of people and their friends and families get into the habits of fact-checking politicians using the open data that's the professional media and journalists across all the different political spectrum is across media efforts to make sure that people understand the claims and the facts behind the claims. And so, building a fun community, optimizing for fun, sharing those social objects that could be fact-checking, could be campaign donation, could be all sort of different parts of political process that is as important as the data and surveillance that is to say, citizens as producers of political data. Five people ask, why does the mainland, that's the Chinese Communist Party, still have the great firewall if the people can easily bypass it by VPN? Well, the answer, you answer it yourself, the CCP has the great firewall because now it's actually very hard to bypass it by the VPN, especially around October. And so, the really dear control over the VPN scene has risen dramatically in the past few years. It used to be that there was no law that punished VPN users, only VPN operators, but now there is a law against VPN users. It used to be that there was no law against cryptography, but now there is a law that regulates cryptography and so on, the list goes on. And so, and even technically speaking, it's now much harder to run a VPN within the PRC territory and someone with the name Sherry Ye said, being there for three weeks last July and none of my VPN works. And that really is the case nowadays. And so unless you are very technically advanced or you can endure very slow connections and unreliable connections, actually the VPN scene has changed dramatically in the past few years. And so that's why the CCP maintains the Great Firewalls and they also turn it to Great Canon nowadays, starting with GitHub and most recently with Lian Deng with the LIHKG that does the Hong Kong Bluetooth system. They would occasionally turn the power of Great Firewall to serve as a distributed denial of service machine basically making sure everybody connect to foreign websites and inadvertently become a bot in the bot network to take down GitHub or to take down LIHKG. Well, in both cases, not very successfully actually, but the fact that they're willing to do this and that they seem to rely on extra legal clauses to scare people off VPN says a lot about their recent thinking about internet technologies. Four people and Brian would like to know, effective digital innovation relies on trust among the people and with the government. How can US learn from Taiwan to build this trust, especially when COVID has made it worse? Well, I bet the organizer is finally thinking, hey, finally has a chance to go through the COVID slides because the previous question has nothing to do with COVID. And so I might as well go through the COVID slides. It's a very short slide. So I will now share another application. So let me just go through the slides a little bit. So just to make sure you can see the entire slide, right? Like the label block, Digital Social Innovation, Taiwan Can't Help, I hear that's good. Right, so I think trust among people is more important than trusting the government. I was just interviewed by BBC last night and I quipped one of my tweets saying, in democratic Taiwan, ministers trust you. And that means that whether you trust the minister is beside the point. The fact that ministers trust the citizenry is more important. And in Taiwan, the way to gonna trust among the citizenry and also for the minister to trust citizens can be distilled essentially to three pillars. And that's fast, fair, and fun. So the fast part is collective intelligence. Starting last year, this is our equivalent of LIHKG or Reddit, it's called PTT. And on PTT, people were upvoting this post by normal pipe. And that is a repost of Dr. Lee when announced whistleblowing. Last December, the PRC whistleblower, Dr. Lee, posted their seven new SARS cases. He would get inquiries around the same time as posted on PTT and eventually punishments from his local police institution. And at the same time, no more pipes post is being upvoted and including being noticed by our medical officer. And the medical officer escalated this to the central disease control. And then they said, okay, starting today, that's to say last December, all passengers flying in from Wuhan to Taiwan need to start health inspections. And this says to me two things. First, the civil society trust the government enough to talk about possible new SARS outbreaks in such a public forum. And the government trust back to take it seriously and treat it as if SARS happened again. Something we've always been preparing since 2003. So the first part, always most important is the completely openness and freedom of speech. So that people can feel that the freedom assembly of speech and so on is on par, if not more than other liberal democracies. There was an emphasis on keeping open mind to new and novel ideas from the society. So not left-wing with right-wing arguments, but rather up-wing innovations that transcend the existing dilemma. That's the thing that will get the most outputs on PTT and on Taiwanese social media. And so for those people who have heard a pink mask story, I'm sorry I have to tell you it again because it's such a good story and it perfectly illustrates this up-wing thinking. So in April, April, I think 12th, people in the CCC heard that there's the toll-free line 192.2 and people has been calling it. And one of the people who called in line says that they have this young boy who were refusing to go to school because he was afraid he would get bullied by having only pink medical mask because when you're rationed, you don't get to pick the color. And instead of saying, you know, that pink is good or saying that pink is bad, let's give the boy another color, which would be traditional zero-sum thinking. They said nothing of that story. Under our daily life-stream Central Epidemic Command Center press conference, it's simply that the medical officers, including Minister Chen Xu Zhong the commander, all started wearing pink medical mask and that's it. And they keep doing so for quite a few days and their internet, social media, avatars or whatever, including the ministry itself changed pink. And that's generally mainstreaming. And also, I think Minister Chen said his favorite role model when he was a boy was pink panther or something. And so the effect, of course, is that a boy become the most hip boy in his class because only he has the pink panther color that the heroes wear and everybody else have very dull colors. And so that is the point of trusting the citizens to come up with open innovation. And that includes with the journalists. Whenever the journalist has any questions, basically the CECC trees journalists as collaborators so that people can think across all different ways of possible ways to communicate the hand washing using soap or hand sanitation, physical distancing rules and things like that and inventing with the journalists. And that's also the fun part. The CECC has this participation officer. In every ministry, we have participation officers as part of our open government work so that instead of just the media officer talking to professional journalists or the MPs that is the parliamentary officers, the participation officers talk to hashtags. Unlike MPs and journalists who you can build a long-term relationship, hashtags are ephemeral things and there's no single speaker for a hashtag. There's easily thousands of speakers for a hashtag. So how do you talk to a hashtag? Well, with internet means. So the health and welfare participation officer, you see lives with this dog and the name is Dong Chai, a Shiba Inu. And so when the CECC says something, like remember to cover your mouth in those ones. The participation officer just go home and take new pictures of the dog and post it as internet meme. They don't even have to pay shut your stock. And then like when we roll out physical distance, the meme was that if you're indoor, you have to keep three Dong Chai away. When you're outdoor, two Dong Chai away. And remember to pre-order your mask. Why? Because then the mask protects you from touching your face and wash your hands with soap. All of this went literally viral and it counters the infodemic very effectively because it has a higher value than conspiracy theories. And that is the point that I want to make. The fun part that makes the science and the clarifications resonate with people. Generally it was humor with no personal attacks or true so-called expeditions in social media. In fact, if you laughed about the Shiba Inu or laughed about our premiere, then really you can't feel outraged and then people will be much more in tune and become amateur epidemiologists. There are still debates but there are scientific debates and this is very important so fast and fun. The fair part concerning mask rationing, you probably all have heard the story already so I will not tell the whole story. Suffice it to say that people no longer need to trust the minister, rather the minister trusts the people enough so that if you go to a pharmacy and you have your national health insurance card and you purchase nine medical masks, give your adult or 10 if you are a child, you expect the people queuing after you will refresh the map in just a couple of minutes. It will update with the new number. If you are adult, the number will become 49. If you are a child, the number will become 189, sorry, 86 and if it becomes 189. Actually people will call 192 to right there saying that there's something wrong with the system and so this is participatory accountability, not unlike a distributed ledger in a blockchain and so with more than 100 tools, even people with blindness, people with all sorts of different neurodiversity can very easily see that we're indeed ramping up the mask and make suggestions of the oversupply and under supply and this is at once a civic technology but through reverse procurement, basically they relinquishing the copyright and then we taking it into a government domain, it became also government technology and so that's the fear principle as collectively insured by everybody using that application. Okay, so that's the slides that the organizers want me to talk, I fulfilled my duty and so let's go back to slide it. Now, so the question here is the lessons and I actually worked in a state by state basis, not only the co-hackathon with the federal government with the AIT but also I think I shared this chat bar design with New Jersey and also this whole slides with New York and so that's me personally, I'm sure that the CCC colleagues have worked with many other states as well. Three people said, what do you think the work trend at the future would look like? Great question. I think there's broadly speaking two ideas that I want to share. First, we would decouple the idea of work with the idea of tasks. That is to say work is something that deliver satisfaction value to the society and also to you and task is just something that needs to be done while you perform the work and pretty much all the tasks can be automated. So a lot of the work is to look into the working experience and design the experience so that automation can take more of the tasks so that people can concentrate on co-creation of values on the society and understanding each other and so on more closer to other humans. So that's one of the very clear trends. In fact, the World Economic Forum said that one of the trending new work is exactly this kind of experience design so that once you finish digital transformation of your own work, you can also moonlight as a digital transformer for people who are not in the same work but share the same task structure. We see a lot of that too. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is that we see that the generational boundary is blurred because across the internet, it doesn't quite matter whether your physical mobility compared to other workers or whether you feel at ease more in a wheelchair or standing up. It matters less because you can design the workplace so that it's whatever the most comfortable way you feel. The only thing that's very hard to transcend is time zone. And so for example, I have to work very early if I want to work with my North and South American friends and also work kind of late with the African and European friends. There's no escaping time zones because we all need to sleep. But other than that, I think there's very few hard boundaries once augmented and extended reality becomes the norm. And so people, I think, would be liberated from this linear thought that a very retiring age or whatever, if people want to retire once in a while, it's decoupled from their age. And if people want to pivot, that is to say try something else, again, that's decoupled from their age. And so a lifelong learning that's in tandem with the work, I think is one of the very clear trend also because when you work in a virtual augmented space, you kind of automatically leave a digital double. And once you leave a digital double, coupled with assistive intelligence, that can serve as mentors to other new people as well. So it's by default a learning, a co-learning experience. Three people would like to know, did you think social media companies have too much of our personal data? Is it still possible to live off the grid? Certainly it is. So, for example, personally, I use as a personal phone, let me bring my phone to you. Right, and this is not prearranged, this is not a product placement, blah, blah. This is a no-care flat phone. It's a feature phone. It tells the time. It has a beautiful, large screen. You can play snakes on it, I'm sure. And it has large physical buttons. What it doesn't have, though, is a touchscreen. The screen doesn't move. Okay, so this, and it's 4G connection. This is not an ancient relic. This is literally a new phone produced, I think, early this year. So, the point I'm making with this no-care phone is that there's zero chance for me to get addicted to social media on this phone. The social media thrives on touch screen. I sure want to say, oh my God, I had the same phone back in the, in what? In elementary school, okay, well, good to know. And I bet you also play snakes on it. But anyway, the no-care phone and the ringtone also have not changed. So, the point I'm getting, though, is that the phone running iOS, which is the same code base as Firefox, is all open source, have zero chance of getting people addicted. Because the touch screen, which wasn't there, was the main cause for us to feel that a phone is an extension of our body. That it synchronizes perfectly. And once you have a high enough bandwidth between a device and the rest of your body, your brain, your mind start interpreting it as a organ. And a coprocessor, maybe you have heard a ringtone before. And, but with no touch screen and indeed with only this large, easy to type but very hard to input long runs term in the keyboard, there is a intermediation between me and this device. It's literally impossible for me to feel that this is an extension of my body. And I only work with my iPad through the Apple Pencil too and not through the touch screen again to create a psychological distance. And so if you used only this phone, social media companies or really any app would not have too much of your personal data. It doesn't even have a front-facing camera. You cannot take a selfie literally using this phone. And the input bit rate, that's the speed, the bandwidth of input using this keyboard is maybe five bits per second, 10 if you're a really fast timer. But that's nothing compared to a touch screen again. And so it's not entirely leaving off the grid. This is a 4G phone. I can do most of my work, check my emails and so on. I can even tweet if I want using this phone but it cannot get a dopamine cycle going on. There's no swipe anticipating something new. I have to actually use the arrow keys and press refresh. That is to say anything that I do is intentional. There's no unconscious habitual swiping that hacks into the dopamine circuit in the brain and so on. I can go on and I'm not really selling this device. I'm just saying that just like you can install advertisement blockers or spam blockers and so on. It's actually very easy if you use this kind of future phone device to live partly off the grid and not get addicted and not share too much of your personal data. And even if you use like a desktop, you can install plugins, extensions, such as the Facebook feed eradicator, which will remove the unpredictable feed leaving you with only the predictable thing. I recently switched the Facebook feed eradicator that I use to something called the Facebook feed eradicator feminism. So if you look at my Facebook war, there's no war. But you see, I'm not free while any woman is unfree, even when her shackles are very different from my own. Audre Lorde, or if I refresh. Great minds may have cold hearts, formed but not color. It is an incompleteness. And so they are afraid of any woman who both thinks and feels deeply. That's seen on Nestle. And finally, Malala, you suffice. We cannot all succeed when half of us are held back. Okay, so very nice quotations from great women thinkers. On the other hand, what's lacking is this unpredictable feed that feeds to me. So I will use Facebook even on my desktop again only purposefully. And so that's again, a very easy kind of mental shield if you will to the social media companies I can go on. So three people would like to know, how do you think the upcoming 5G network will impact the environment? Great question. And the answer is, I don't know. We have to find out on the one hand, it can empower the internet of trees, the internet of rivers. We can all very easily see in each of every purchase that we make each of our conscious action, how many carbon footprint we're causing. And we don't have to guess anymore. The mountains and the rivers can talk back to us based on the work that we do. We can empower them to calculate exactly the environmental impact of each and every human action. That's a great thing. On the other hand, of course, it will also make it possible for people to go to the mountains and rivers and even the ocean and build new working environments there. And so what used to be wilderness will be no longer because armed only with 5G, a bunch of robots can just make a human habitat pretty much anywhere. And then just make sure that people who want to go there can run it from remote using virtual reality control. That's exactly the way, by the way, that people are going to colonize Mars. And so it also empowers colonizers. That's the other hand. And on the upwing, I guess, on the gripping hand, 5G networks is just the beginning. On the 6G or post 5G networks, the satellites will make sure that even the places that is as high as the Himalaya, or especially the places as high as Himalaya or Savia, the Jade Mountain, can easily get broadband access by having a densely woven satellite and other above airplane transportation devices for the repeaters and communication devices. So that's the direction, it's a upward direction. So very soon, I guess, in the next 10 years or so, we will see a very different view, a holistic view. Currently in Google Map, you can see the street view is only the streets. But very soon, I think you will see the mountains and the rivers and even the ocean and even the top of the highest mountains and so on, gradually powered by autonomous vehicles and the post 5G networks. So we will see our spaceship as to say the Earth, I guess more clearly as a spaceship and that may have a different environmental impact now that we can feel the Earth much more readily as a single being rather than through abstractions and clouded literally by the cloud so that you can't really easily see the Earth in relation to the cosmos. Five people would like to know, Brian's question, what is Taiwan's and my personal attack on crypto currency? Is there a future in blockchain for social innovation? For example, distributed ledgers to verify election votes. Well, we already use distributed ledgers on medical mask stock numbers, that is to say the pharmacy stockpiling of medical mask and the participatory ledger spread across more than 140 map and chipmots. That actually is a distributed ledger in technical terms. It's just not a blockchain. It's using Git, which I guess is a sort of blockchain but it's not, of course, like Bitcoin or Ethereum, it doesn't quite contain this inherent consensus mechanism but it is a distributed ledger. So DLTs like Git is good in the sense that people can keep each other honest with a very low cost. And we already use that also, I think, begin with EOTA, which is a cyclic graph, not a blockchain but also a distributed ledger. When you measure the air quality in Taiwan, there's a easy way to do so, less than 100 years dollars, called the air box. And people in primary school teach the data competency, how to be a data steward, a curator in this kind of data democracy using those air boxes which contribute to a distributed ledger at the real-time air quality level in Taiwan. And they, amongst such a large, like tens of thousands of stations in their community, so they can bargain, negotiate with the environment minister saying that we would consent of you aggregating our data, doing analysis, even collaborating for humidity but we ask you to work with the industrial areas to put our design into the air boxes, that is to say, into the industrial parks because we suspect of polluting. But we can't break an internet, of course. But it turns out that the government owns the street lamps and so we put the air boxes on the street lamps, again tens of thousands of which are now being collaborated in the CEI, that's Civil IOT platform. And that also relies on distributed ledgers. And so Taiwan already used DOTs for social innovation across the board. People also use it for agricultural, like organic farming, accountability for cross-jurisdictional contract, so holding. For example, if you're donating to disaster relief like flood in Nepal and so on, you can use the Ethereum DOT to make sure that, but you still donate in fiat. It's not in Ethereum as a currency, but rather to make sure that each intermediary actually delivered the fund to the people that need the fund and so on. And so DOT, very useful, core social innovation already. Currency less so because that's the same as mobile payment versus ATM and cash because there's very little problem with dispensing cash or faking cash. Cryptocurrency really only shines if you don't trust the central bank. And, well, we trust the central bank very much here in Taiwan. So Taiwan sees a lot of people working like in the Ethereum Foundation to develop cryptocurrency tools for other jurisdictions to use. But at the moment, there's no so-called killer app in Taiwan as compared to fiat, to the new Taiwan dollar from the scene of cryptocurrency. But then, again, it challenges our innovators to think past my limitations and they can always apply for a fintech sandbox when they come up with something that breaks existing regulations. Four people asked me, do I have aspiration to run for president from Taiwan? Well, first of all, it's illegal, unconstitutional for me to run now because in the constitution as stipulated that the president for the Republic of Citizens, the transcultural Republic of Citizens need to be above 40 years old and I'm just in my 30s. And constitutional limitations notwithstanding because my waste of work excludes me from political parties. As I mentioned in the quoting Postman Jr, political parties by its very nature participates in a sort of zero-sum games with other parties, party members. And so because my work is on rough consensus and broad participation, not only human beings but as you have heard, internet trees and rivers, if I join a political party unless I join also every other political party, then it's at odds with the politic that I'm practicing. So the only political party in Taiwan that I celebrated, I did not endorse or join the party. And when I celebrated sending them this banquets of catnip, they were not yet a real political party, but they are now. The political party is called a literally can't stop this party, or Hualou Wu Ba Dang, paraphrasing the very happy party. And the party has this logo, the same logo as the YouTube logo with a triangle tilted a little bit, pointing downward or leftward or rightward, whatever. So the point I'm making is that unless this is this like professional comedian party that want to make a, I don't know, satire, a parody of political parties, that I can more readily participate. I cannot join traditional political parties. On the other hand, I'm not sure that one can run for president in Taiwan without belonging and the support institutional from a political party. So I don't see myself running for president with the current representative democracy. I see myself as a lower case minister. That is to say someone who advocate, who preach digital social innovation and making sure that all the political parties are on board so that every party in the presidential party, that's the DPP, but also the KMT, the vice president candidate, Simon Zhang, Zhang Sanzheng, they both agreed that open government, digital social innovation, a dedicated agency for digital transformation are very important. And Min Zhongdong and New Power Party, all of them, the Taiwan People's Party and New Power Party, they all sign on and in fact are leading as co-leaders as the open government partnership from the open parliament effort along with DPP and KMT people. And so again, I mean, the open government work that I do broadly agreed by all the different party members from all the parties in the parliament and that is the kind of work that I do. And that's my politics. Four people I would like to know, do you think you were treated differently after changing my agenda? Well, I didn't change my agenda, right? I went through two purities and post-gender, that is to say, I identify with the idea that there's really no fixed gender for any particular person. I was born with a natural testosterone level that is somewhere between natural male and natural female. I was born also as a left-handed writer, but I also learned to write with my right hand and so on. So it's post-gender and it's intersectionality and it's empathy in my mind. So with the quote that you just saw, was half the population left behind from Malala, that's a beautiful quote. And in my mind, I don't leave anyone behind. I don't have in my mind this thought that half of the population is somehow different from me. We're all homo sapiens, descendants of Lucy. And so that's my point of view. And so I don't think I'm treated any differently and as an open transgender, non-binary, but I also think that it helps me in my daily political work because people see that I can empathize more and I very deliberately take all the signs. And when I say publicly that I take all the signs, I guess people treat me with more trust and with more empathy as well because they can see through me the other signs as well. Three people ask, coding will be mandatory in Japan's primary schools from 2020. How young do you think the Taiwanese government should provide students with coding courses? Well, we provide free coding courses to people of all ages. But in primary school level, as a K-12 curriculum designer, we emphasize on design thinking and computational thinking, not coding as in writing programs, but rather programming in the sense of designing programs. And that I think is peculiar in Taiwan because we translate programming not as software engineering, reti gongcheng, but rather program design, cheng shi shi ji. So all programmers are designers in Taiwan. And that has the benefit, by the way, of ensuring a good gender balance because engineers are traditionally associated with boys. But designers, designers are gender neutral, close gender really. And so I think this is really good in terms of inclusion, but also making sure that before you program, you need to listen to the stakeholders, to people of all different sides to discover what they are encountering in their lives and define the common questions that they need to solve, that they need to ask using programming. And then you develop and then you deliver. And so that is the double diamond method from IDEO, that's design thinking. And that's part of our core competence, one of the nine core competencies, interaction with media, with information, with communication and so on, but with an eye on designing with other people. So when they learn, for example, scratch, it's always by remixing each other's legal blocks, so to speak. And that is, again, why we put the interaction arm in our three core competencies, that's autonomy, interaction and the common good. And so it can start as kindergarten if you look at it from a design and computational thinking perspective and only when a child is ready to learn any particular programming language like a foreign language, they need to already have a community to speak such languages. That's my take on computational and design thinking in the K-12 curriculum. Three people, like you know, given the environmental protection has become an important, yeah, one of the most important agenda. What did the Taiwanese lead toward printing physical triple stimulus coupon? Look, we tried everything we can to avoid printing physical triple stimulus vouchers. For two months, the entire design was digital. We work with EasyCard, with credit card companies, with mobile payment companies. We designed this idea that if you spend $3,000, NT dollars, you can withdraw 2,000 of each from a nearby friendly ATM. So all of this is cash-free and it's paperless and it's very friendly to the environment. And I think it's also speaking as a decentralized system designer, very decentralized because each individual bank handles their own account. And when they settle, they don't transmit any personally identifiable information. And so none of the bank or payment system, if they crash because of the large influx of people, the every other part of the system would not crash. It's a beautiful design. But the only thing though, is that we're a democratic country and the people let us know very firmly that they want to use this triple stimulus vouchers to the people who are the smallest operators, the smallest business owners. That is to say the night market food, wheel, cart dealers, whatever. And the common hood between these people is that they do not have a post machine. The street performance, busily performing, they do not have time to operate a mobile post machine. Now you say, of course, you can do a QR code scanner. That's true. On the other hand, many of those small business operators, food dealers and so on tells us that they do not want to file a tax filing cheat. That is to say they were tax free because there are small scale operators. They do not have to pay a business tax because they do not have a fixed operating place. Or even if they do, the transaction amount is so small that they were exempt from the Tong Yi Fa Piao, from the invoice device. Now if they install a post device, they would not be able to escape from filing their taxes and they do not want to file their taxes because they were exempt from it, you see. And many people say that these people are the one that were hurt the most during the pandemic because they just go to the places where there are a lot of people gather. And even though we had no lockdown, we did put the physical distance and we did put the limit on how many people can gather together in the same place. And so they were hurt the most. On the other hand, the convenience stores like the PX Mart or the supermarkets, they actually gain a lot, even grow during the pandemic because people trust these places to have, I don't know, management of people's inflow and these places enjoyed a surge in customers. And so the places that has the capacity to handle post payment, that's to say the credit card, easy card and mobile payments, did not suffer that much from the pandemic. And the people that did suffer much do not want the post payments. And so after they let us know in not uncertain terms, we said, okay, so people who choose to spend their vouchers on night markets and on gathering places, they can do so. And the food dealers that receive those triples, the most vouchers, don't even have to go to a bank. Many of them say they don't have a bank account. They don't have a business account. They can just use those vouchers to buy the ingredients from upstream vendors or even enjoy their own discounts when they purchase their daily livelihood items and so on. And so that's the design and people have the freedom to choose. And evidently, people want to go to the fiscal gathering places, meet the business owners, saying that they know they have suffered during the pandemic and now we're going outdoors to help your business and they feel that a fiscal token is the way to do so. It has much more social solidarity meaning compared to the mobile payments. I had this idea that we should, instead of just a beautiful envelope for the paper vouchers, we need to also print this laser sticker, a small sticker, that you can pin to the back of your phone or the back of your credit card or the back of your easy card, showing that you're showing solidarity to the business owners, a triple stimulus voucher sticker that will be far more environments friendly. On the other hand, that idea didn't quite work because at that time, we already allocated all our funds and some more to the printing and to the envelopes. So whatever ideas that I had, I brought it then to the Yifan coupon that is the Ministry of Culture coupon and the Ministry of Culture then solved the same problem including the street artists and so on, using an app that would then do a QR code scanning and also a dynamic QR code that could be scanned and the people who don't have a mobile phone or who have a mobile phone but that doesn't run the app like this Nokia phone, we can choose the paper voucher but only in the second batch, months after the first batch of the digital vouchers and that to me is a good compromise between the digital transformation on one side, environmental protection also and the fiscal spending but for the triple stimulus voucher because it's already seen as the kind of the major thing for the nine market owners and so on to operate, we cannot wait until the second batch. So that's political reality and that's democracy for you. So three people would like to know, is it possible for Taiwan to have absentee voting as in the States in the near future? Yes, but only in a referendum and the reason is that we have a different counting process as compared to other jurisdictions. Our counting process is radically transparent. When you count the ballot, the counters actually look into the audience seeing who is holding a camera and make sure that each ballot item is filmed by the every filmmaker in the audience. So that's really interesting, right? Because when people can see for themselves each and every count, there's no room for conspiracy theories but that's also the reason why we can't that easily do absentee counting in this regard. If you do mail-in or if you do a pre-round of voting, people will say, this is the counting process less transparent than the publicly YouTuber-based counting process. And if you do the YouTuber-based counting process but you only have one person living in Kimman that do absentee voting for their home in Lanyu and then you'll probably know who actually cast that vote. And so that's it. And so the point here is that only in national referendum in which everybody in all the voting booth vote for exactly the same choices, can we repeat the counting process, a YouTuber-based counting, while ensuring that no personally identified vote information gets reviewed by the counting process. And so we will do that. I think the central election committee say they will use referendum as a kind of testing ground first by e-collecting that will roll out soon and then maybe by absentee voting and then maybe by e-counting and things like that. But always when people understand that this is just for choosing things, choosing ideas, choosing issues down the referendum agenda rather than choosing people. And only when we have a solid social norm on the counting process involved, can we make it so that it works on voting in election status to say voting for people. So the program coordinator let me know that our time is actually up. And so thanks for all the great questions and I will read the other questions but there's from the program coordinator a private message saying that I need to wrap it up. So thank you for the great questions. Thank you for the live on Andre Tom around applause. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah, live long and prosper. Thank you. Thank you.