 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I am Scott Bernstein your host along with my co-host partner in crime Jimmy Bucci Lotto the doctor. Hi everyone. Hey now call me stye We got Ben behind the glass and we have a very very special guest One of the premier pre eminent mob busters in the United States Dating back almost four decades out on the east coast in New England Stephen O'Donnell retired a member of the Rhode Island state police worked for the RI SP for roughly 30 years had another five years of of other Various law enforcement capacities, but he made his name and his reputation as a Go-getting mob buster for for the United States government and the Rhode Island state police Going after the patriarchal crime family Which if you know the you know the mob Geography the patriarch is in habit Providence, Rhode Island Boston, Massachusetts some parts of New Hampshire some some parts of Maine and Connecticut and Steve O'Donnell. Thank you so much for joining us No, you're welcome. Glad to help out and We're gonna just dive right into the deep end of the pool. I wanted to bring Steve on to talk about something that is Pretty fresh in the news headlines and then use that as kind of an entry point to go Back and look at something that happened maybe 30 years ago, which could be coming Maybe or maybe not could be arising as a future indictment a murder case that has has been cold for The last 30 years and it has been getting hotter over the last couple years But we don't know for sure if there is or if there won't be an indictment, but I'm getting ahead of myself so a couple weeks ago The the amazing and talented Tim white who was one of the original gangsters podcast You know one of our closest colleagues someone that we we have so much respect for who? Reports out of the Providence area. He had a big big blockbuster story about That the chief the chief of staff for the Rhode Island Congress for the for the house of representatives in Rhode Island the chief of staff a guy by the name of John Conti was since step down from his posts since Tim White had this Big report that came out on the television news W. P. R. I a couple weeks ago that John Conti who was this Political power broker was in bed with the Providence faction of the patriarchal crime family specifically he was in a marijuana business with a associate Patriarchal family enforcer named Raymond Scarface Jenkins Him and Jenkins I guess had had been very close since childhood, but through this investigation Rhode Island state police In these court filings surveilled John Conti going to meetings with high-level members of the patriarchal crime family in Providence going to a Christmas party specifically in 2020 where he interacted with probably right now the two biggest shot callers in Providence Matthew good-looking Maddie. Googly and many junior and Edward little Eddie Lado and that's what we're going to talk about right now in that report both Tim White and the Rhode Island state police have named Eddie Lado as the recently promoted Underboss of the patriarchal crime family So I want to talk about the promotion and then I also want to talk about the fact that Eddie Lado Has been out of prison now for about three or four years and ever since he walked out of a about an eight-year bid for extortion he's had a possible murder case hanging over his head dating back 30 years ago last month or 30 years ago in September the Kevin Henry hand hit September 18th 1982 a Another Providence mob enforcer that was gunned down You've had some grand jury testimony that links Lado to that case, but there has not been an indictment But I digress I'm gonna turn it over to Mr. O'Donnell to You know, maybe give these give us some of your thoughts and insights on the lay of the land with this new New report of the promotion of Lado about what's going on You know in the political realm there with John Conti and then maybe we can get into what was going on back in the 90s after we touch on this stuff No, sure. Thanks. God. Just though. I want to just clarify the story with him. I collaborate with him I do I'm the law enforcement analyst to WPR ITV. So I think you probably just misspoke not intentionally because it gets confusing It was the deputy chief of staff of the speaker of the Rhode Island House of Representatives It was not a congressional staffer that was involved. Yes, I apologize. Thank you for correcting me No, no problems. That's people get very sensitive about that stuff. So you're you're right It was a videotape of Raymond Jenkins. They called me Scarface Jenkins And he was meeting with the deputy chief of staff in the State House lot, which is restricted to members of the House and Senate and employees there So it kind of just showcased that what's really happened in the organized crime world We're in the last maybe 10 years at least because of I wouldn't say the demise but because it's been broken up to an extent that Everybody there's a lot of people that you know, they They don't know how like they'd like associating with these people for whatever reason They haven't learned to step away from those people Understanding this is a blood oath criminal organization. No two ways about it that if you grew up with a look I grew up the street right across the street from a made guy. I'm not his friend I don't hang around him. So I think that's the the political piece that anybody involved in Well politics of legitimate business should not be around these people because they're it's a sworn criminal organization It's all they do so all day long They just figure out scams and this one happened to be about legal marijuana and One of the things that I used to tell when I was the superintendent of the state police in Rhode Island I'll still talk about it today is the marijuana legalization If that is good for the medical piece of it, you know, so be it but as you're keeping the criminal element out All it's doing is inviting the colonels in I testified to it as the colonel I spoke into multiple governors about it that you know You these the licenses in Rhode Island of five hundred thousand dollars a year so just that's money that you're printing and Organized crime may not be the face of it certainly because they have criminal records But this case kind of showcased the behind-the-scenes work What happens is the wise wise the guys will get involved behind the scenes and obviously this case proves it out that they're involved A mayor in the Fall River got indicted went to jail for shaking down marijuana business So it's the new shake down to new with that amount of money You know the wise guys it doesn't take rocket science to figure out where they're going to go When it comes to making money that they can hide it behind, you know legal business They're gonna be right behind it, which they are and I'm sure more cases will unfold as we as we speak every day as to any lay-doh That's interesting. I think you know this so I'm probably talking the choir with both of you that historically New England power base from the mafia is our Providence or Boston So what I mean by that is the boss becomes out of Providence the underboss is out of Boston as a balance of power How that happens for decades Because of the Prostitutions with Salemi rolling over and Bobby DeLuca rolling over and being witnesses for the government The bossing guys did not trust what Allen guys at all So it became a balance of power out of Boston so the Boston underboss were both out of Boston so any lay-doh's ascension to underboss is I wouldn't say it's showing but it's certainly interesting That red Allen has a trusted soul as the underboss and it's given a little more credibility Rhode Island, which means the people under Eddie have a little bit more credibility Through New England, which is means there could be an insurgent of what they're up to That's how I look at it. So Steve you just mentioned two names and I want to give a little background and throw it back to you but you mentioned Frank Salemi Cadillac Frank and Bobby DeLuca aka Bobby the cigar and I want to again put this in context for people that might not know the history So as Steve just said, you know For time immemorial the there's been a delicate balance in New England between Rhode Island and Massachusetts Traditionally the boss has been out of Rhode Island and the underboss has been in Massachusetts occasionally that paradigm has has Reversed or or been inverted right now. We have one of those situations, but I want to go back to a time When there was another situation just like this and it happened in the early 90s and that will bring us into that Kevin Hanran that I mentioned before but Frank Salemi comes out of prison In the late 1980s Let me let me back up one second That the family had been run by its namesake Raymond Patriarca for about 30 years Raymond Patriarca dies of a heart attack in 1984 it was kind of sudden and his son Raymond, Jr. Is is given the reins and Raymond, Jr. Wasn't anything like his father. His father was heavily respected and feared and Had a pretty pretty huge reach start off as a street guy way back in the day So he had a lot of street cred. So Raymond, Jr. Takes over but it is really a silver spoon Yeah, gangster that doesn't really have much street credibility doesn't have a lot of respect from the rank and file So when Frank Salemi comes out of prison after 15 years Cadillac Frank was everything that Raymond, Jr. Wasn't he was Respected he was feared he in some in some cases. He was beloved But there were other people that couldn't stand him. He was a polarizing force, but Frank Salemi comes out of prison and Aligns with Raymond, Jr. Against an insurgents in Boston and The Boston insurgents is led by a cruise in the north end in East Boston and in Revere and There's a shooting war Salemi survives Being an assassination attempt in front of an IHOP in Saugus, Massachusetts in the summer of 1989 takes refuge in California until this Acrimony blows over the Rivals to Salemi and Jr. Patriarch are jailed six months later In a racketeering case. So the streets are cleared Salemi comes back to town And takes over his boss He names at that time his best friend or one of his closest friends Bobby the cigar deluca as a quote-unquote Kingsman capo meaning that he is Salemi was from Boston although he was aligned with the Providence faction. I know this is confusing Salemi was a a guy from Jamaica Plains at half Half Irish half Italian couldn't could never get his button Because of that Raymond senior wouldn't make him comes out of prison Raymond, Jr. Makes him and it was like he kind of created the monster And Frank Salemi wanted to take over his boss So this is when there's a throwback. I think the last time We had the boss in Massachusetts and the under boss and in Providence was during the Salemi the Salemi reign when Salemi was the boss in Boston and baby Shax Manocchio was his under boss in Providence and then Bobby deluca was the go-between between Salemi and Manocchio. So Salemi and deluca both flip Salemi flips in 99 Deluca flips in 06 and the guy that we're talking to you right now was the guy that flipped him Mr. O'Donnell probably one of your One of your shiny moments in your law enforcement career, but by flipping deluca It opens up a Pandora's box of old Murders that had kind of been forgotten about and Deluca starts going in front of grand juries in around 2016 2017 and he Tips the feds and the Rhode Island state police off to what really happened to Kevin Hanrahan in September of 1992 I'm gonna give the scenario for the next 20 seconds, and I'm gonna throw it back to Steve Uh Salemi according to what I've been told by what's being told of the grand jury by what's come out in some media reports as well as court records Salemi got word that patriarch a junior From prison was upset with being marginalized or kind of edged out by Cadillac Frank And that patriarch a junior from prison reached out reaches out to Kevin Hanrahan who's an Irish guy can't get made but is a very very formidable street collector and Forcer hitman and He puts out a contract on Salemi and baby Shax Manocchio That contract the knowledge of that contract gets back to Salemi and Manocchio who order a hit on Kevin Hanrahan so Steve Talk tell us or to talk to us about when you were working this crew and you were able to finally get Deluca to kind of jump ship from the bad guys to the good guys and Then how we reached you know ten years later. We get to the point where we start talking about Hanrahan Yeah, it is crazy and sometimes it's I guess it's something as you mentioned it can be difficult to follow But I guess the bottom line for listeners is that these the wise guys historically 50 years 60 years 70 years They all do the same thing they turn on each other some way some capacity either by force Like Paul Castellano gets murdered by God in his crew or God his crew takes over So this is a different way of a different coup So when these wise guys face big prison time, you know, there's relationships that get fractured who likes who who doesn't like Who so what Bobby Deluca did was Bobby was serving time and he reached out to me from the prison and He had asked to sit down and talk obviously. It's hard to do especially in Bobby's capacity At the time I was a second to command of the state police So a little bit more visible than when I was an undercover guy So long story short his motivation was to remove Louis from being the boss So other mob factions have killed the boss So it was clear to me that He wanted to get rid of Louie Minocchio who again, I know this is really confusing for people, but after Salemi goes to prison in the late 90s and eventually flips and goes and goes into witness protection his Former underboss Louie Minocchio becomes the boss of the patriarchal crime family based out of Providence He is how would you explain? Louie to the audience. He's a doesn't look like a gangster kind of dresses more like a You know a lawyer or a or a accountant. He's very sharp But it's very well spoken very polished. How else would you explain Louie Minocchio? You know, it's a perfect question the perfect time Scott So what it is is my first job in law enforcement as a correction officer in prison as a maximum security I'll never forget it the first day. I walked in the building as you know, brand-new recruit There's this they call it the rear hall. It's where the exchange or prison is Happen who's coming who's going and I see a guy in the rear hall in a suit and tie in a briefcase And I didn't know who it was and it was Louie Minocchio I thought he was an attorney so to describe him and I say that comically because he's a well-dressed very articulate Doesn't you know appear on the you know, the mob Look that you would have but make no mistake about it. He was a feared guy a murderer But he was doing double life in prison At the time I worked there. He was eventually this case could overturned The witness in that case read Kelly Louie disappeared for a long time when before he turned himself in and the memory conversation with him in prison Louie like you know, these mob bosses are busting out a prison with helicopters back in the early 80s And he said I'll be out a couple years legally and sure enough he was and what happened was he fled for a long period of time He hid in New York City and Italy when he came back the witness had first-stage Alzheimer's and the case got thrown out because the style witness couldn't testify and his double murder conviction Get overturned. He got released. So that's how we describe him a very Engaging guy not wonder he was not combatative as a non undercoupled guy when I dealt with him as a supervisor Even as the colonel and as US Marshal approachable. He talked. He's not gonna tell you anything but he was He represented from a coast in Oskar And differently than others even though he was violent and he was a nasty person behind the scenes He just had a different way about him He came from they call the old mustache beats where they were non The outward appearance that the public would say would be different So it'd make it hard to understand when you meet them people liked them But they also fear him because they knew his reputation if that makes if that's a good way of describing And I want to just let people know that during Frank Salemi's Roughly six-year reign atop the patriarch of crime family. I mean it was the definition of unstable and Chaotic and and you know forget about double and triple crosses. You were looking for you know quadruple crosses everybody's turning on everybody bodies are dropping every 30 seconds and then Louie comes in in around 1996 and He really tamps down on all the Dissension and gets everybody on the same page and kind of Resurrects that crime family back to the way it had been before what's interesting and And I forgot about this until you just said it but The motivation for Bobby DeLuca to start talking to you guys wasn't necessarily or wasn't to Get out of the life and maybe he was telling you that but his real motivation was to and tell me if I'm wrong here Steve was to give enough information for you guys to take down Louie Minocchio aka baby shacks and then he would slide right into the bosses chair No, you spot on and he actually said that to me I know So you understand every time I met with him or spoke to him the phone I recorded it on purpose and That was clearly what he was trying to do and I could try to tell him like Bobby Look, you know, we're not a conduit for you to take over as the boss You cannot now he didn't want to be What we call on front street as a testifying witness. So when he started it was more of a source that he was feeding his information But his goal with that Louie get taken out and eventually he'd be released and he thought That he would take over the boards and understand their backgrounds like Bobby DeLuca When he was not a made guy worked at Lincoln Greyhound Park before it was Twin River Casino And one of his jobs was picking up Feces after dogs, you know the dog track and so just think about what happened with Frank Frank became the boss Frank loved Bobby They were thinking and see thieves and he gave Bobby the power and then Bobby You know in his his mind felt that we can do the same thing I'll take Louie out somehow he'll figure out how he can ascend or somebody else as long as not Louie because he hated Louie and But it's it's a typical way these guys operate but back to you Hand-in-hand thing if you want to get back to that. Sorry, I guess this is this is really my dream having Steve on the line to be able to pick someone's brain like this for a family like the patriarch is which I find so intriguing I've written a lot about it. So to have someone like Steve here to give us his perspective It's just I'm like a kid in the candy store. So yeah, so let's start So well, let's kind of lead up to it for a second. So You start or Bobby starts cooperating with you a sign or you know quietly in 06 by 09 you make the case That brings down Louie Minocchio And some other people am I right or was that 11? Yeah, what happened is he's talking to me And it's obviously that's sensitive information at the time and the reason someone listening might say well How can you talking about it? It's all a public record now It's all in affidavits. Otherwise, we would never talk about it So Bobby's been outed at his own you became I've written about this. So it's not this is not breaking news Right. So, you know Bobby's mentality was what it was So there's a point in time where the superintendent state police that I work for retired and another superintendent came in and You know Bobby didn't see I die that superintendent is the best way to describe it. So I said Bobby look I you know, I work somewhere. I have to communicate to my boss not like I just do this road and he said, you know He'd prefer because the cases that we're working on obviously leave the jurisdiction around so everything we typically do We work with the fed so I do great relationship of the FBI. So it's simple as picking up the phone, you know This is what we have this guy wants to cooperate He's going to be going when he gets out of prison. All he wanted Scott was to be removed from minimum to work release was his only request and I told him it can't happen because You know, if you don't move within facilities according to the rules, you know, any inmate never mind Bobby DeLuca Every inmate has a PhD of how the prison works. We move you lots of red flags. Yeah, it's just so we can't do it I'm not going to do it. No, am I going to call the director correction to do it We do it for us, of course, but so we didn't do it and what I would do is I'd meet him You know a couple times a week. I take a rip the bus right now in public transit There's during bad weather, you know, so I wear hoods hats and meet Bobby you'd get picked up You know, he could leave the prison again a rip the bus We take a ride and I would just debrief him and then he'd tell us everything and then we'd worked on what he's telling I was one to verify his information eventually that information was brought to a special agent of the bureau that I grew up with that was assigned to Providence and Joe Degnan and then Joe became the lead in the FBI and state police and then mass state police and all the other law enforcement agencies Work with the bureau doing, you know, what we're talking about when you know, I'm taking Louie out and removing Louie from power charging him And then, you know, obviously Louie going to Fredo prison and doing his time and then being released So Steve, so he so you were working with Bobby between six and nine or was it between six and ten? But I'm talking about oh sick oh sick. Oh sick was when he starts Yeah, oh six when he stopped in my involvement because of the rank that I held, you know I'm not an investigator and I'm the boss, right? So that got turned over to other investigators may handle the investigation obviously I'm I'm in tune with the bureau on a you know weekly basis talking about what he's doing so far until the case ended You know, we all collaborated together, but you know Bobby Testified in federal court as a federal witness and at what point does Bobby go into witness protection of the first time? I'm not positive the date, but I do remember going to see him and I was having a funny conversation with him I hadn't seen him obviously in years and you know, he's incarcerated or in custody and He was you know surprised to see me, but when he saw me he said He was critiquing me that because he knew that I taped all our conversations He said I can't believe you tape me. You didn't trust me I'm like I'm not going to I'm gonna trust a mob capital who reaches out to me I'll blue that any you know any conversation we have was you know, it's on tape So you can't say something that's not accurate in that world, you know, once they're giving up each other You know, they give up their mother to save themselves So it's not beyond me for him to concoct a story about me or somebody else And we want to make sure if they're gonna cooperate that they're telling the truth And in their world as we found out pretty quick with Bobby and Frank Yeah, so they don't lie, but they don't always tell you the whole truth, right? So let me sit. Let me set this up for for the audience. So you so Frank Thlemy flips because he's pissed at whitey bulger He finds out that what he bulger who had who he had aligned with on the street Had been giving him up the whole time Everybody knows bulger was a corrupt Irish mafia boss in bed with the Boston month or in bed with the Boston FBI As a way to take down the boss mafia So Salami flips goes into witness protection Bobby 10 years later flips goes into witness protection And it looks like we're all done with Bobby DeLuca and Frank Salami, but fast forward to 2016 Spring of 2016 The FBI and Rhode Island say please dig up a dead body behind a old textile mill that had been converted into Office space and they find Stevie DeSauro a former nightclub owner Mob associate who had been killed back in May of 1993 The owner of this textile this converted textile mill. I believe his name is Billy Ricci was a member of Bobby DeLuca's crew and was got caught using the Facility to grow marijuana at that time marijuana had not been legalized medically in the state. I don't believe And in order to get out of the drug case Billy Ricci Billy Ricci says to the FBI. Hey 30 years ago Frank Salami and Bobby DeLuca buried a body at my on my property So you got a he he got a you know again picture this Salami and and DeLuca at this point they'd already debrief with the FBI, you know at face value They were supposed to have told the FBI everything that they had ever done in terms of criminal behavior murders and etc so The second that news broke and my I believe was late March of 16 that they had dug up Stevie DeSauro. I Knew and I you know, I'm not a member of law enforcement, but I knew that either Very soon or it had already happened the feds were gonna be knocking on the door Frank Salami in his witness protection new identity down in Atlanta and with Bobby DeLuca in his new witness protection identity down in Florida So yes, that's what happens by the end of 16. They're both back in custody and DeLuca has then flipped on Salami and and gives up Salami for the Disorrow murder which then DeLuca is the star witness at the 2018 Frank Salami trial where he's convicted of murdering Stevie DeSauro who was a business partner of of his that he thought was gonna cooperate against him and That now this brings us back to where we were originally in addition to DeLuca giving them the disorrow murder DeLuca cops a plea to being involved in the conspiracy to murder Kevin Hanrahan And this had been a cold case just like to the sorrow case. This had been a cold case for almost 30 years So that's where you know where we were about five six years ago Bobby DeLuca's pled guilty to his role in it. I've been told by sources that I trust He's been in front of a grand jury that there have been Grand jury proceedings over the last handful of years hearing testimony in the Eddie or sorry in the Kevin Hanrahan murder and some of that testimony points a finger at Eddie Lado for Either being one of the trigger men or being Involved the conspiracy so Kevin Hanrahan left a a dinner a steak dinner At about a little at 10 11 o'clock Summer between 10 11 o'clock on September 18th 1982 1992 Claim that he was going to meet someone to collect some type of score And within minutes of leaving that dinner. He was murdered by two mass gunmen Bobby DeLuca about 20 minutes after that is seen meeting Possibly with members of the hit team at a restaurant bar in the area and the Hanrahan hit happened on the 10 year anniversary of another mob murder from Providence the Raymond slick Vecchio hit on September 18th 1982 that Hanrahan might have played a role in as a shooter in that hit So try to unpack some of that for us Steve Yeah, you need a scorecard. Yeah, it's interesting. So it's your point Raymond sick Vecchio Was killed up on Fettle Hill by all the counts in form and accounts never been charged Kevin Hanrahan Obviously now Kevin dead Interesting how the mob guys work. So for years after Kevin got hit he got killed in Yes, to your point on the anniversary of slick Vecchio's murder First things going to point to the Vecchio's or someone connected to the Vecchio's in that capacity When all along it was not the Vecchio's although the vengeance piece makes sense Until you know all this broke in federal court and Eddie I'll give you an example when um, you know, we would I wouldn't say known but same thing informant information when I worked undercover from 1996 We are talking to the guy named Rudolph Lado who's related to Eddie Lado and Sometimes you don't target guys like Eddie and Louis directly because they insulated so you go after the people around them And the idea of Eddie Rudolph Lado was if we could get we charge, you know, we enough criminal violations on Rudolph Lado You know take him aside see if he'll flip and then de-flips on Eddie Lado then you can solve the murder. That's really basic law enforcement 101 so That you know, obviously it was a long-term investigation in place called Decatur Square, which is where it's a small Clubhouse area to the backside on federal Hill where you know the bookies and the shallots all those people Hang around every day like you've seen a movie and it's really how it works So when Rudolph gets arrested, he doesn't give us any information any more than that. We could talk about We prosecute Rudolph. We know who you know law enforcement knows who can do the murder, but you got to prove it So I think in this particular case, you know with Bobby coming forward with the information and some people would say well How come Leo isn't getting prosecuted because Bobby in federal court pinned this murder on Lado You got to remember that Bobby lied multiple times got caught in lies. So as a witness He has really no credibility for the government to put him on as a witness and if he's the only piece of evidence You know to prove that Eddie was part of the murder of Henry and it's just not going to happen The government's not going to put on a Bobby Deluca as just the sole witness You know if there was forensic evidence or something else that could pin Eddie to what it'd be very very hard just on you know, if it was a mob If a person with credibility, I'm not sure you can ever use the words together mob guy credibility But if Bobby had flipped and everything he said came to fruition was proven true He'd make a pretty good witness like other people have in the mob world but in this case he's been proven to be a liar multiple times and He'd get you know that case just on Bobby Lucas word would get blown out I don't even think a grand jury would indict you because I think you'd have to tell the grand jury about Bobby's You know history of not telling the truth and I and I also want to make clear to people that Although Bobby Deluca was the star witness at the Stevie de Sarro trial where for Cadillac Frank was was put on trial Eventually convicted to your point. That wasn't the prosecutors only card to play I mean, yes, he was a star witness But they had a number of other people that could hit the stand and tell very convincing stories of why Frank Slemmy had Stevie de Sarro killed and you had Bobby Deluca's brother who testified to helping Burry De Sarro and then you had Stevie Flemmy who was whitey bulger's right hand now I'm not positive. I believe this but he testified to walking in While the Slemmy crew was murdering de Sarro when when Slemmy's son was actually strangling de Sarro Stevie Flemmy says he Just dropped by coincidentally Whether or not you believe that Stopping by a murder is is it just to be more than incredible, right? But just happened upon one of the 30 or two But I guess the point I'm making though is it's not just Eddie Lado If the if they ever brought a case on the Kevin Hanra hand hit it wouldn't just be Eddie Lado I mean Frank Slemmy, although he's already in prison Serving life. He's 89 years old. He didn't get any younger Louie Minocchio 95 years old still alive in has been retired for the last decade living kind of in between Florida and and Rhode Island and then I Don't think I'm speaking out of school here because I'm pretty sure I've written about this And I know it's been testified to in front of the grand jury One of the alleged shooters in the hand ran hit is dead According to witnesses Rocco Argenti who they called shaky who eventually became Louie Minocchio's conciliary According to testimony at the grand jury was one of the the shooters one of the trigger men on the hand-to-hand hit So they couldn't charge Argenti because he's been dead for 20 years But they could charge Eddie Lado. They could charge Cadillac Frank and they could charge baby shacks Minocchio Yeah, we just remember the witnesses that you have, you know The you know, obviously prosecutors use witnesses that have bad histories, but I think you'd have to have Something beyond those guys, especially two of them You know Frank's gonna be is Frank's Frank's admitting to it. You could charge him with it That gives him some credibility if he's getting sentence for it But I don't know the particulars cuz I'm not in that world anymore You know why you know what the evidence they have or whatever they don't have against Eddie But for Frank Human dignity to another murder no big deal cuz he's doing whatever time he's gonna do it what he's doing and for Louie Minocchio You know, he's not charged in that case and I'm certainly I wouldn't be certain But I'd be shocked if Louie Minocchio ever cooperated every chance when he went to federal prison on the last case I remember talking to him in the federal courthouse that you're gonna die in prison Louie and he told me We could die somewhere old Donald He was released in federal prison and he's been out for a while I'm tell you funny story on Louie Louie when he went to jail I was the United States Marshal for Rhode Island and I got in a van with him and so we don't hear I explained, you know my role now not stay pleased because he got charged While I was the US Marshal and he got convicted while as US Marshal So I said Louie it's time to cooperate and tell you life story This is your time and he's as I told you he said, you know Not gonna happen never will happen, you know, not on my watch so to speak then when he was released I was the superintendent of state police and I you know meteor asked me about a comment about Louie being released And I made a comment that you know, hopefully Mr. Minocchio is seeing the errors of his ways and he will be rehabilitated Something to that effect and I saw Louie walking on that was Avenue a couple days after that broke and I stopped to talk to him and He said, oh, no, you think I could be rehabilitated and we got a chuckle out of it So, you know, he's reading they read their pressure leases. They read, you know, they're very On top of yeah, what, you know the public in the media talk about them Yeah, we've heard that the denuncio brothers who we haven't mentioned them yet on this Broadcast but they are the guys allegedly that are The bosses right now of the patriarchal crime family. They're based out of Boston's North End a social club called the Gemini Gemini social club and I have heard that were me and Jimmy and the in the og podcast is required listening to To go into the Gemini social club and they they occasionally sit down and chop up what we've been talking about Yeah, well interesting. There was a hotel called the Gemini hotel Many many years ago probably in the 80s Something we closed down as a house of ill-reputed is the best way to describe it that a guy named would ask Yara Yeah, he's involved and I'm not not Bobby DeLuca, but Vito DeLuca when they guy they were involved in that and Now I was at high school actually late 70s when the Gemini hotel I believe it was in Seacon ran so who knows if you know I just think historically if you look at how all these guys operate It's the same thing either they take their positions by violence or they take it by You know ratting and if there's one thing in there or murder life, you know, the word or murder is silence nobody should rat and a Lot of the bosses across the country have ratted and some of them, you know out doing podcast and talking about what they did and It becomes yeah, it becomes so mainstream that it's like people are numb That's what these guys did and it doesn't and the ones that are out there now Again, it's a sworn organization to do Criminal violations and if you you know if you wrong them You know murders murders do happen and I know it's not to the extent. It was decades ago But like I told you I see with the nuns eos and power and Eddie Lado Becoming, you know a player better a bigger player in run Allen. It just it's a It just tells you that they're still out there And if we give them another opportunity to make money and they punch one of those things and unfortunately, you know Power in money what drives organized crime and you can't have if you got them both You know, you print that vacuum and they know it corrupts people are corrupt systems So I think, you know, I'm glad to see the state police and the FBI is still on top of those Those matters because you know when we could talk about racketeering statutes all the things that they designed years ago to attack Organized criminal groups like Lacoste and Oster and although motorcycle gangs it's important that these organizations continue to track them because I believe they're part of the Resurgence of messing up with our the government how they can infiltrate What we do inside, you know our government Would say I want to make make it crystal clear. I'm not saying governments involved, but you know, it's not beyond them They've got involved in the courts before they've got involved in, you know, legitimate businesses where you know next thing You know your legitimate business is gone because you got involved in advice with them And then they'll take full advantage of that if they are strong and powerful enough and appears They are starting to take some type of resurgence. I have a question for both of you. I'm just interested in the psychology here Why why did Frank and DeLuca not Come forward with everything they knew from the beginning. Well, none of this could have Neither of these guys would have to be in trouble with a log in they had to get out of jail free car when they were being debriefed For their they call Queen for a day Frank did it in late 99 Bobby did it I'm guessing at some point between 6 and 11 But both of them decided to leave out huge parts of what they did which then came back to bite them What, you know with Frank Salemi? I was talking to Jimmy about it off-air, you know With the to sorrow hit Frank Salemi's kid was involved and if the kid was still alive It would make sense right but when but when Frank flipped the kid had died So what what motivated I'm just emphasizing Jimmy's point What what was the motivation for DeLuca and Salemi when they were when they had their opportunity to come completely clean? Why didn't they? From my perspective of most of that is those two their relationship was strong Frank took care of Bobby Bobby took care of Frank. They were in the trenches together Bobby, you know Wasn't nobody in the business and Frank was a somebody what I mean by Frank was a somebody Frank earned his bones He's a nasty vicious guy a lot of people Yeah, and Bobby I would say you can't call a murderer But he wasn't like Frank Frank was kind of like a witty bulge of type Lodge in a life rogue wild Bobby wasn't wild You know Bobby kind of got led by Frank but loved the life and I'm telling you from a guy that knows Bobby So I don't think they want to you know, they're in their crazy minds You have to understand how they think from a rational person you and us talking on this phone They think totally different from us They think that they can outsmart everybody that they're smarter because they're pretty street-wise and maybe They won't find out we did this. So in essence, I'm you know My gut tells me and I want to you know, give me your opinion on what my gut says my gut tells me that Back in 99 Cadillac Frank didn't give up the disarrow hit because he would have had to give up his best friend Bobby DeLuca and In 2009 Bobby DeLuca didn't give up the Lado or disarrow hit because he would have to give up his best friend Cadillac Frank even though at that point they weren't, you know, I'm the street to go Yeah, and I'll tell you this story with Bobby when Bobby first started talking to me when we got into, you know One things I won't give you guys name because he's not I would say he's a mob guy. He's kind of associate I meant Henry. I meant disarrow and Henry and I think I might have said Lado. I'm sorry Steve. Go ahead No problem and when Bobby said I'm not giving up so-and-so no matter what I'm not giving him up He was good to me when I was in prison and he gave me a job when I got out of prison So, you know in their minds they have weird loyalty Like, you know when the feds tell them you got to cooperate and give up everything You know, they pick and choose and so I'm certain Frank and Bobby still didn't come fully cocoa on other things might not be murders But it might be on scams and scams that they knew about in real estate. Well, Frank Well, Steve, I'll tell you Frank Salemi left out about Anywhere between 10 and 15 murders in his debriefing and you know from what my research tells me and He didn't Steve. I'm guessing you know this but all the stuff that he copped to in terms of Homicides was all stuff that took place in the in the 60s. He didn't cop to one in his debriefing in 99 He did not cop to ordering or carrying out one murder between 1988 and 1996 Yeah, that's what gets forgotten about a lot is, you know, the you know, who ordered the murder an example would be in Rhode Island and Jerry telling hask and Irish hitman who's this deceased and his brother how old were convicted of killing a guy named George Bazmajian and When Jerry went to prison, he was on tape saying arguing with one of his confidants to go see who does the I would tell Rudolph ask Junior why I'm he knows why I'm doing life You can interpret it two ways that I because I shut my mouth or because I went to jail for murder I said in my mind, it's because he does I never gave you up because the hit came from Raymond, Jr. So that's never been prosecuted Nobody can prove that because any person could testify that would be Jerry So he has and if Jerry got the order from Patriarch or if he got the order from Rudolph and those people die So it's such an insulari group of people and then if they do testify or become government witness that's just their word and You know, so they're the organized structure They set up is done by design, you know from boss to under boss to copo to lieutenant to soldiers Technically, you know guy in the streets not supposed to be talking the boss and obviously that was Louis Monaco's demise He was talking directly to guys that weren't made guys That's honestly that's how there's a lot of people that have gotten jammed up the boss goes directly to People on the street or they don't have a buffer, you know, because the buffer is usually the person like Bobby and Frank We're talking about they trust each other that they'll never give each other up So my guess is you're absolutely correct that Bobby and Frank will go to their death That there's things that they'll never share with anybody unless somebody Comes forward that can prove another way and then they get brought back on the hot seat You know, you know, you think about the there's a qualitative component here, too This is a parallel with the episode we just did on Philadelphia The it shows you the state of the mafia in the 90s at least for some of these families Because in the Golden Age guys like Ralph Natali in Philadelphia and Cadillac Frank in Boston Probably wouldn't even have been made let alone ascend to the boss So they're both guys that had to wait after a long prison sentences for whatever reason it didn't get made in the 60s and 70s Right, they had to wait until the 90s or in case of Frank's Lemmy late 80s to get made after the fact Yeah, so we shouldn't be surprised in that their their leadership style was dysfunctional When when they probably weren't boss material to begin with if that makes sense and Steve Get made and it would twist my brain and other investigators How does Bobby's brother ever get made and nobody knew that and isn't this a perfect Steve? Isn't this a perfect example? I'm sorry to interrupt you. Isn't this a perfect example of how people? Well, you know, they'll look at old charts or old Comments at the the federal government made 20 years ago about how many may guys are here How many may guys are there there are in this is a secret society that when the mafia makes people they don't Issue press releases so a guy like Joe DeLuca I didn't even know who Joe DeLuca was let alone that Joe Joe DeLuca was a made guy But everybody found this out during the disarrow trial because he took the stand nobody I'm telling you nobody that were that was watching the mob from you know from a distance not being you know a part of it Nobody knew who Joe DeLuca was and nobody knew he was made until I didn't know what his brothers cooperating with me And so I found out same what you did and you know because we used to scratch our head when you hear like a Joe DeLuca being made But he's never he's not bother anything and sure enough, you know help moving a body I guess counts in the murder and I think for the listeners to be a made guy one of the things besides being Italian And being in the crew you had to commit a murder so I guess you can make the leap of faith He moved a body But I can tell you It's a totally of a you know other made guys from New England or other organized crime factions Niki Skopo's or these people that have gotten made that some you know We're not like I bought his way into it It's all in the public record from Bobby DeLuca. They pinged to become made guys in there You know like they try and portray themselves to be mainstream realities and you know, maybe ten years I know they'll be involved someone will tell you that they were involved in some type of homicide But the Application process has been diminished over there over a decade and the quality the quality of gangsters has been diminished now You know take that for whatever it's worth. Well, we either buy their button We got a wrap up here. This was awesome. I just want to throw two real quick things at you and then we're gonna say goodbye I noticed a through line as we were talking you you were referencing Rudy Scarra Who was an og og I mean og's og in the world of the New England mafia was a capo that Eddie Lado came up under So did slick Vecchio though, so I I've been told that Eddie Lado was buddies with slick Vecchio. Is that true meaning that there could have been some added motivation on The hand-to-hand job. It wasn't just an order coming It was also people carrying out the order but Doing it with glee I guess Yeah, without questions. So Kevin really irritated a lot of the mob members But he was always protected because Louis felt that he was a guy that was so woke. He'd do whatever they asked him to do so When he got to rogue obviously gonna take out Louis and Frank then he's got to go But to your point so Eddie and those guys Sometimes a guy like Henry had had more Authority so to speak because the bosses liked them and protect them they need to protect them because Anything more than they had this killer that they could refer to that would do what they wanted to do Move it more like it's just a dangerous rogue guy in their world It's always good to have a guy like that around and obviously he got to rogue and he prayed the price for it So yeah, and my guess is but I didn't get killed because they were told you cannot he was never sanctioned to kill him Right, you know for retaliation, but I was told that Eddie was really close or Relatively close with slick Vecchio and kind of relished The assignment to knock off hand right now. This is you know secondhand information. So I don't know Last thing I'm gonna throw at you and then we're gonna say goodbye Yes, or no, does Eddie let oh ever face charges in the cabin hand or hand head? I'm gonna say no Well, I'm interested in what you what you think Well, but it's not a yes or no It's a hopefully yes the answer be yes because nobody has the right to kill anybody no matter what reason and hopefully there's enough evidence to charge You know matter who gets killed nobody has a right to do that. Oh, I'm not saying he has a right to get away with murder I think he should be charged. I'm just saying reading the tea leaves and through Again, what I've heard four years of grand juries It's like well if they haven't come up with the evidence at this point to indict are they gonna come up with the evidence in the next Couple months or next couple years. I was anticipating Eddie leto to be indicted two years ago on this And you know, he's he's got the last laugh on me at least Yeah, who knows I mean, I think if there's not enough evidence coming out of if there's a grand jury or not Then just to your point we've talked about over the years Things just happened like somebody comes forward and said hey, listen, there was a body buried in my right Just opened up a whole new case that could happen, you know, no statute limitations on murders So hopefully he gets prosecuted if he's in fact the person that did kill him Thank you so much Steve. This was one of my favorite episodes. You've ever recorded We've recorded about a hundred of them and this goes in my top two or three We definitely want to have you back If if you're if you're game, I'd love to just do a whole episode on his undercover work We didn't even be able to get into that but he was undercover in the patriarchal crime family And so we could do a whole other episode with him a couple months from now and just get that story if that's cool with you Yeah, absolutely. No problem at all. This was great Is there anything you want to promote or let people know where they can find you or I know you're not someone Who's like this has written a book or anything, but it's what people that that are interested in your insight I know you do a lot of stuff with Tim White There's no platform that I talk about this. I'm in the middle of I've been in the middle of book for a while I was actually doing something with a producer in Hollywood about you know undercover story So someday, you know, it's it's the perspective not just of the mob undercover But you know, I did it while I had a family and kind of lived a different life and it's just intriguing But to me, you know, it helped me in my career because under and even now outside of you know I'm not actively law enforcement, but just understanding how they think and You know where they are in the world, you know, I run into him even on the job I'd run into him even now I run into different people Let's just tell you Jerry Tillinghouse who I did a case on he came to my class at Salvation spoke This is a mob hitman who I brought in I said look, I'm not going to glamorize But I want you to tell this group of students are going to go into law enforcement or law Who you are and you know, you know, you're not going to admit to crimes that you committed But tell them like I want people in the law enforcement world Or up-and-coming cops to know there's people out there Like them and how they think because you have to know in order to police the enemy You got to know how the enemy thinks in any world of its law enforcement military or whatever else sports You know research the research the opponent they do they're very cognizant of what law enforcement does So I think law enforcement has to be very cognizant how about how they operate to well We all owe you a debt. I mean, this is the type of You know American hero that we like having on to you know shine a spotlight on such a Accolated career, you know so many high points, you know, really we thank you for the debt Or we thank you for the work that you've done. We owe you a debt of gratitude Everybody in New England obviously but us that just you know study this stuff and and make this you know Kind of our passion in our living You know, you're you're you're the lifeblood. So thank you so much for joining us giving us That kind of insight and perspective we want to have you on again, but Steve this was this was amazing. Thank you so much No, I appreciate I'll close with this the lifeblood of it really is the people that support those that work You know this world, you know, I mean they're I worked undercover There's a whole support system from state police local police more FBI that you know Undercover backgrounds and protecting who you are and you know getting all this stuff done Then you know why it taps and bugs and prosecutors all that there's a lot that goes into besides You know the one or two or ten people that you know are investigators on this So there's a lot to it and it's you know, I've learned a lot about lore and why it taps and bugs and you know And then honestly the last thing I'll say is a lot of people don't get prosecuted But it doesn't mean they didn't do something you shouldn't have done that's illegal and the intelligence piece of that law enforcement If you rest 10 people says another 50 that you know interconnected to this group and they they be all walks of life In the state you live in. Yeah, actually what Alan wherever you go. Yeah, I chuck law meet somebody. I'm like, oh my god That guy was related to this guy, you know, he owns an oil company or he owns Construction company and they might not know I even know that but I you know That's the stuff that kind of stinks because if you're my sons had to go up in that world because I limited You know who they could associate with because you just know, you know, so much depth of how the system works Yep Thanks for that in terms of what you just said Stevie you're preaching of the choir. We're from Detroit the Detroit mafia is the most stealth Connected juiced in mafia family ever These guys live their whole lives without having to go to prison with probably dozens of murders in on their resume and they die very very wealthy and free men Are the boss of our of our mafia got indicted on a Rico and did less than a year in prison So you do the math you do a math on that one Thanks, Steve Gentlemen, I appreciate you. All right. This is Steve. This is og podcast. Please like subscribe share We're gonna keep bringing you that true crime content that you love more bells and whistles more resources more Opportunities to engage. We're gonna give it to you. We know you like it. We love bringing it to you So till next week for Betty behind the glass and JB. I'm Scott Bernstein og podcast out