 Welcome, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, depending on the time that you're joining us. We are so thrilled to have you back here for another episode of The Nonprofit Show. We have back one of our personal favorites, Miko Marquette Whitlock, CEO of Mindful Techie. And he's here to talk to us about combating fundraiser burnout. And I'm looking forward to that because I know that this is a topic that comes up quite often. And I'm really looking forward to continuing my learning from you. Julia Patrick is still resting. I hope that she's doing quite well. But Julia is the CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy and we have her to thank for these episodes with The Nonprofit Show. I'm Jarrett Ransom. We also have her to thank for the invitation for me to serve alongside her as a co-host. I always feel really giddy in the mornings when I wake up and I know that I'm gonna have a super nerdy conversation like the one that we're gonna have today, but I am the non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group. And we are honored and esteemed to have the continued support, the investment and just overall support from our community leaders and our presenting sponsors. Those would include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, Your Part-Time Controller, Staffing Boutique and the Nonprofit Thought Leader. These companies exist for one purpose and that is your mission. So please check them out. They're here to help you. Hey, if you missed any of our episodes, are you like what you're hearing and you know you're gonna wanna share this episode with someone else, you can find all of our previous episodes and this one will be added to the queue on Roku, YouTube, Fire TV, as well as Vimeo. Emiko, I don't know if you knew this because previously this was not what we had, but we are now in podcast form. So wherever you stream your podcast, yeah, you can queue up The Nonprofit Show based off today's conversation. You can have both Miko and Jared in your ears depending on wherever you wanna go. So I'm excited for this conversation. And without further ado, I feel like a drum roll is needed. I'm walking back, Miko. It's so glad to have you here. Thank you so much for having me and I'm excited that you all are actually doing the podcast for me. And I'm a big podcast listener and so I'm a really strong auditory learner and listener. And so while I'm doing other things, I tend to listen to other things in the background. So I'm excited about that. Yeah, well, thank you so much. I think we just saw that we had like over 1500 downloads and so that's really exciting. This of course will go in the queue. I also love audio learning and I just finished, I just did a long drive and I finished Atlas of the Heart from Brene Brown and it was fantastic. But yeah, I consumed that all through audio. Well, hey, Miko, I know a lot about you. And as I shared in the digital green room, I said, you know, I felt like I went a little stalkerish and this is a total compliment that way. Because the very first time we met and we had you on, I was truly floored and I was impressed. I was a little envious of how you've been able to figure out life in such a mindful way. And I started following and consuming everything that you put out truly. And then also referring you to so many other people because I'm like, he is such a gem that I cannot hold on to for like my own consumption. He needs to be spread throughout the entire world, not just our sector. But tell us a little bit about yourself, Miko, for those that may not have joined us on a previous episode and what you do with Mindful Techie. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for those kind words. I'm excited to be here and I'm always excited when people find value in the work that I'm doing. So to really just provide a short snapshot of what I do. So I am a workplace wellness consultant. I help change makers do great work better, specifically focusing on helping folks really find and sustain long-term work life and tech life balance. So many of us that are working in the social change sector are so passionate about the work that we're doing. But sometimes we forget about ourselves, right? In our service of the mission and the clients that we serve. So my passion, my work is to really work with you to figure out how you can take care of yourself so that you can do better at the work that you're doing and going out there and changing the world. And so I come to this work as someone who has worked professionally across the government and nonprofit sector most of my professional career prior to doing what I'm doing full-time now. And so I know intimately what it's like to work on the inside, at the outside, at the board level as a consultant. And so I've used that experience, including my own experience with Burnout and the related challenges to really just say there has to be a different way to do this. And I wanna dedicate my career path to helping folks figure that out. And you have and I just absolutely adore it and love what you're doing because for the longest time I thought, you know, like, well, I can't be mindful and a career-driven person. Like, is that possible? And so again, as I said, I've consumed so much of Miko and so much of his content that I highly recommend all of you checking out, you know, who he is and what he offers. And of course those previous episodes because I wanna say this might be your third appearance with us. I think so, yeah. Maybe more and yeah, just good stuff. So, okay, well let's dive into the topic, Miko, because again, I'm just eager to hear from you. Let's talk about burning out staff, particularly with fundraisers. What have you seen and I mean, where are we going wrong? Yeah, that's a great question. So I actually wanna start by just talking a little bit about Burnout and really framing it in the context of stress, right? And so often when we think about stress or too much stress, we think about it as a bad thing. And so I wanna make the distinction between positive stress or use stress is what some of the psychologists call it, I believe the technical term and the negative stress, which is I guess what we might call distressing, right? So things that we find distressing, right? So there's positive stress. For example, if you have a deadline to meet it's a reasonable deadline. For example, maybe you get a new promotion and that requires you to grow into a new role a new level of responsibility. All of those things would be positive forms of stress that are actually good, right? That keep us motivated, keep us connected to why we do what we do. But the negative forms of the stress so that calls us to stress, right? Calls us to literally pull our hair out sometimes maybe to gray a little bit prematurely perhaps to have us have anxiety, you know even when we're not at work, right? We're thinking about things that we didn't get done or we're anticipating what we might be confronting when we go back to work the next day when we return for vacation. Those are the negative forms of stress that over time actually lead us to a place where we are burned out. And we wanna as much as we can be able to prevent that and be able to have strategies if we are burned out for coming back. And I say prevention because once we get to a place of burnout, we can come back but it becomes harder once we reach that point. So I just wanna use that as a framing to start us off. You wanted to chime in there? Well, I'm glad you did because I have never equated stress to good. I've always thought that's in the negative category. So I'm glad that you provided that insight. So great insight as to what exactly is burnout. I'm pretty sure and I should say I'm just confident that I hit it this past year. And it was ironic Miko because I also presented on how to prevent burnout. So I'm sharing that to say like none of us are immune to this, right? Like this could happen to absolutely any of us. And let's talk about now burning out our staff with our fundraising events. Yeah, so I think when we talk about burning out our staff particularly with fundraising events so the one thing I think is important for our technology is that the world has changed and the way in which we live and work has changed. And to your point about you even giving a presentation on preventing burnout and you having experienced that in that process it reminds us that we go through seasons in our life and work. And I remind folks that when we talk about self care when we talk about effective stress management when we talk about preventing burnout it's an ongoing process, right? And it requires us to be consistently engaging in strategies that help us no matter where we are in our life and our work. And so I wanna give that frame because I think sometimes we feel like oh, if I just flip or switch then all is gonna be well but no, it has to be an ongoing practice that's part of our individual practice but also at the organizational institutional level as well. So in terms of burnout obviously we've seen lots of turnover in the sector and the pandemic, for example folks are taking on expanded roles and responsibilities. And I think there's also pressure to figure out how do we serve in an environment where actually need has increased perhaps. And I think in some instances let's take social services for example some communities and some others that I've worked with they've seen an increase in need beyond anything they've ever seen since they've been in existence. And so I think the first place to start is to simply acknowledge that things have changed. I think we sometimes underestimate the power of acknowledgement but the research shows us that even if you don't have an answer one of the biggest things that you can do for yourself and especially if you're in a leadership position is to simply acknowledge, hey we understand that things have changed we understand that we're still trying to figure this out we don't have all the answers but we're gonna keep you informed as we figure this out together. That's one of the very powerful things that we can do to just as a start to begin to get a handle around this and that's without even spending any money that's without doing any type of major policy change or anything it's just simply starting with and acknowledge that things are different and that we're trying to figure this out. That's right. Just that awareness I think really gives that affirmation to staff that we see you, we hear you we acknowledge what you're going through and that is really important. One thing I have seen is, you know and I feel I've seen this for the past 20 years that I've been in the sector truly Miko is so many nonprofit leaders feel that it's like a badge of honor to say look at all that I've done with very little resources or look at all the PTO that I've acquired without ever taking a vacation for the last five years like to me that's a red flag and I've been in these conversations whether it's fundraisers, you know regarding staff fundraisers or regarding really anything and it's like, hey, if you tell me that you're actually bragging about how much PTO time I'm gonna actually demand that you use it. Because I think that's so important. Like we should not be banking up PTO time. It's really important that we take time off just like Julia is today. Yes, absolutely. So I think you're right. Like I think we have to change the norms about around this in terms of the workaholism and the heropreneur or the hero hours that some folks call it, right? You know, that somehow by sacrificing ourselves that that is seen to be like something to be applauded, right? And I think tied to this, you know the research shows us actually when it comes to productivity and when it comes to really maximize the potential rest and restoration is one of the most powerful productivity tools that we have. And so tied to this, it includes, you know the basics that we already know about, right? So sleep, exercise and diet or nutrition. And I know this might sound very basic for some of the folks that are listening. And so for those folks that for whom this sounds very basic and you know that there are things that you should be doing that can make a big difference for yourself. One of the questions I invite folks to do is on my advanced training and coaching is to really ask yourself if you already know these things what is actually getting in the way of you putting those things into practice, right? And so for many of the folks that I work with there are underlying fears and doubts and anxieties that are connected to that, right? So we carry these thoughts around, okay well, if I don't respond to this email after hours I'm gonna be seen as not being responsive not being seen as- As a slacker. Exactly, as I can not being seen as a team player. Maybe this is a very real fear that you might lose your job or you might be somehow impeded in your career growth if you aren't overextending yourself in that way. And so I work with folks to understand I can have a framework called ACE, right? So the ACE stands for acknowledging whatever the fear, the doubt, the anxiety is the C stands for confronting, right? So we acknowledge it and then we confront it and that confrontation is simply saying, okay, well, I have this fear that I'm gonna be perceived as a slacker. How do I confront that? Well, let me tell the truth about that. The truth is that I deserve to rest, right? I need to rest because if I don't then I will burn out, right? And so we can all come up with whatever the truth is about the situation. And then the last part, E, the execution really takes us to a place where we can say, okay, I acknowledge I have this very real fear and doubt. I can confront that with what the truth is. And then the execution is really how do I take action despite whatever this fear and this doubt is, right? And so if you have a very real fear that for example that they're gonna be repercussions for not responding to that email after hours then maybe that small stuff you have is by actually letting folks know, hey, here are the hours that you can expect when I'm gonna be available. If it truly is an emergency, here's the best way to reach me, right? So that way you're able to have that conversation. You're able to confront that, you're able to set expectations with the folks that you think might be trying to reach you and you're giving them permission that if something is truly is urgent or important or an emergency, here's how to reach me. And that's an example of sort of acknowledging, okay, I have this fear, I have this doubt, let me confront this and then let me also not be paralyzed by, but let me actually take action despite that. Again, this is why I just adore who you are and what you offer, it's so very important. And it seems so basic and I have uttered the words out of my mouth before, like I am a workaholic, I'm not proud of it, but I know that I have those tendencies. So if we are stressed in a bad way, if we are burning out ourselves and our staff, are we doing the same with our donors? Are we burning out our donors with fundraisers as well? Possibly, right? And so one of the things that I wanted to note in terms of the burnout, I'm particularly acknowledging that the nature of our work has changed and how we work during the pandemic is really making sure that we're taking this opportunity to really assess, are we carrying over the pandemic way that we worked into the way things are now, right? And are, or are we taking time to really pause and reset and say, okay, what is our intention, right? What are we trying to do? And is the way that we're working now aligned with that or do we need to actually make adjustments, right? Are the priorities that we have, for example, in the workloads, for example, do they still make sense now for the way that we're working and living or do we need to adjust that? The same thing with our donors, right? Our donors are human beings just like us, right? They aren't automatized, it's simply writing checks or donating online. They're experiencing, we're all collectively experiencing this together. So to your point, chances are it's the same, right? But they're just as overwhelmed as we are and so we have to be able to take that into account as well. And the beautiful thing about this is when it comes to any type of stakeholder work, we don't have to do any guesswork. We can actually be engaged with our stakeholders and we can actually ask them, what's going on with you? What are your top concerns? How are you feeling? Is the way in which we are engaging with you in this particular season of life and work, is that actually working with for you and then using that data to be able to make adjustments accordingly? We don't have to actually guess. We can actually ask people what's going on and how are they receiving what we're doing and be able to respond accordingly. And that's better than assuming for them, right? It's not our job to make up their life story. We should give them the honor and respect to ask them. Well, all of this is just so timely because many organizations are wrapping up their fiscal year, right? And so mostly that's end of June 1st to July and not all organizations, but really looking at how this is impacting our community, our sector and you're right, there's so much that has changed and it's been non-stop, right? It's been three years of pandemic's plural. So not just the global health crisis, we of course have social injustice, political divide, environmental crisis. So there's a lot of heaviness going on. And with there being 1.8 million nonprofits in the US alone, Miko, I can only imagine the burnout for staff, the burnout for donors is even greater because we are one of their many philanthropic organizations that they're absolutely receiving information from. So that's something even more to be mindful. I was gonna say, conscious about, but really I think the word's mindful that we're looking at. Absolutely. So I think in this instance, it's about quality over quantity, right? And figuring out meaningful ways to engage folks beyond traditional avenues. And so keeping people informed in a way that you're actually providing relevant and useful and valuable updates, making sure that you're acknowledging the new reality and thanking folks for their continued support through this particular challenge that we're all dealing with collectively, empowering your donors, especially the folks that you're super fans to be able to advocate on your behalf. Those are some creative ways that you can simultaneously continue to be able to effectively fundraise for your organization, but at the same time be able to spread the joy of evangelizing and talking about your cause as well and bringing other people into your network. But I just wanna really sum this up by saying that I think perhaps the most important place to start here is to really, if you haven't already asked some basic questions about how your donors are doing and how they are receiving the type of engagement that you are engaged in currently, that can be in the form of a survey. Maybe you do that for a handful of folks. If you already have conversations lined up with folks about potential donations or maybe thank you notes, maybe that can be part of that where you pick a segment of your donors and use the engagements that you already have scheduled to build that in so that you can collect some feedback and be able to course correct. And this is something that you shouldn't just be doing right now, but this should be like an ongoing practice that you're engaged in on a regular basis. That's right. And thank you for saying that, because I'm thinking we can certainly ask our staff, we should also be asking our volunteers, our board members, like this is really not just focused on development. This is really every single person, like this is our birthright is to not burn out. That would be the goal. And I'm curious, so these are fantastic strategies. How do we continue to implement them, right? As you said, to avoid burnout, it's not a one and done. This is an ongoing practice. So really looking at this from a daily, more healthy boundary, what are some things, and they might be repeats from previous episodes where you've joined us. But what are some things that you recommend for us when we do feel that coming on? We feel the overwhelm, we feel the stress, the bad stress, right? And just having that overwhelming sensation. You know, we look at our workforce right now, the workforce is down, as you mentioned earlier in today's conversation, many more people are taking on many more tasks. So like twofold, how do we advocate for ourselves and how do we advocate for our peers? Absolutely. So I think the first question starts simply by acknowledging that it's acknowledging whatever the challenge is, right? So if you're feeling overwhelmed, you feel stressed, being able to really acknowledge it for yourself and then being able to find the courage in whatever way is appropriate in your organization or team to be able to voice that as well. And to know that it's not a personal failure on your part because we're talking about an institutional and a societal culture that we've created that has made it possible for these dynamics to persist, right? And that is also not just your personal responsibility to fix the problem, that yes, there are things that you can do to navigate the challenges more effectively. But also when we talk about long-term solutions, we have to be thinking not just at the individual level, but we also have to be thinking at an organizational level. So I think that's the first place to start, acknowledging and being able to communicate what that is. And then- I'm hearing we're definitely putting this ACE method to practice. Yes, absolutely. It's really important. Yeah, I keep going. I didn't mean to interrupt, but again, I'm just like, this is a perfect opportunity for the ACE example. Absolutely. And I think the next part of that is, especially being able to identify what are the root causes of what you are experiencing. So we talked about the example of the person that maybe had a very specific issue with after work email, for example, if able to figure out what are some very specific strategies that are gonna be connected to that, right? So being able to identify, especially you're able to, what are those root causes so that when you are voicing your concern, it doesn't come off that you're sort of complaining and whining, but you're being very specific that, hey, like, I'm noticing that we're spending a lot of time doing work after hours lately. I'm wondering if we can have a conversation about that and how we might be able to shift. And that way that the conversation about solutions can be very laser focused to whatever that particular root cause is. Yeah. I was gonna say it hurts my heart when I hear someone say, and I've heard it too many times, oh, well, so-and-so is such a hard worker. They're the only person I get emails from on nights and weekends. And I think that is so horrible, like so sad because to me, that is not a definition of success. It is not any definition of productivity. If anything, it's gonna make me worry about their time management. Absolutely. And so I think connected to that is the next part of this, right? So like, what are the practical strategies that we can engage in? I can really quickly go through a few of these. Yeah, do you? We don't have too much time, but I would love for you to wrap up the conversation with some of them. Yeah. So the first one I wanted to talk about is something that I've talked about before, which is establishing your rules of engagement. So this is something that you can do for yourself. This is something that you can do with your team, with your organization. And you can use this conversation. You can share this as a resource. If you don't wanna be the one who's the messenger, you can sort of share this conversation and use it as a starting point. But that really, the rules of engagement really have us individually and as a team have explicit conversations about what are expectations around when we're gonna be available for work and non-work. When are we gonna have time to focus on the activities that aren't just the meetings that we're spending time in, right? When are we gonna actually have time to do the work generated by all of those meetings? And then the final thing is, what are our expectations in terms of communication? So what do I mean by that? If something is urgent or important, are we communicating by email? Are we communicating by text message? Is it slack and based on the level of urgency, having a conversation about what actually constitutes urgency and what are our expectations in terms of response times? I think part of the stress that we're experiencing and part of the burnout is that we're responding to unwritten expectations or we have different expectations that aren't being communicated. And so one place to sort of get on the same page and really lower some of that anxiety is just have an explicit conversation. Okay, our expectation is that you're gonna be available to be online between eight and six. If you receive an email, we expect a response in 24 hours. If we send you a Slack message, we expect that the response time is gonna be X amount of days or hours or whatever it is, right? And being able to have that be not just a one-time conversation, but an ongoing conversation as the nature of your work ebbs and flows with the seasons of life and work. I just wanna say, can we also define and have those rules engagement around what is an emergency? Because what I define and what seems some of the staff define is very different. Absolutely, absolutely. So it's really about getting on the same page and releasing the judgment. Like there isn't a right or wrong here necessarily. It's about having a conversation and being able to come to a shared understanding of where we are. And again, you're in, what things look like at you're in for fundraising for your organization might be different from other seasons. And so being flexible enough to have this be an ongoing conversation that shifts. I agree, I'm gonna pull up your slide information here. So everyone knows who I adore. It's no secret. It's now a public crush. It's like Facebook official, but Nico Whitlock, just fantastic. And I'm just so glad to know that you're here in the sector. I've had some wonderful opportunities to work with an organization here in my local community called Mindfulness First. And they are providing fantastic opportunities and programs within the school system of Arizona and even beyond. So I just love that the word mindful is, it's raised to the top and it's coming up more and more. And to hear this is really comforting. There's another organization. I follow on Instagram called NAP Ministry in AP. Yes. And they're nonprofit. And I'm like, yes, I'm all about NAPs. I'm all about resting. I'm all about self-care because when I go, I go hard. And so when I can like, come down, disconnect then I can go hard again. And that's kind of like become my cadence and again, just so glad to have you with us and to share your sage advice. So Miko Whitlock, CEO, Mindful Techie. Check him out. Check out MindfulTechie.com. And for those of you listening, that's M-I-N-D-F-U-L-T-E-C-H-I-E .com. And as I mentioned, Miko's been on with Julia and I before and he just has fantastic insight, very active on LinkedIn as well. And so if you want to connect with him, we're so honored to have the continued support of our presenting sponsors. They keep these conversations going and we are just so honored to have the ability to have conversations like this. So I'm going to give a quick verbal shout out again to our amazing sponsors that keep the show going. So thank you to Bloomerang, to Staffing Boutique, to your part-time controller, nonprofit nerd, fundraising academy. And I think that might be it, Bloomerang. So honored to have each and every one of you. You keep these airwaves going and the education flowing. So, so honored Miko. I hope that you'll join us back again. And for those of you that did join us, this mantra that we've said for now almost 600 episodes means so much more today, but please stay well so you can do well. Thanks everyone and thank you, Miko.