 Labour suffered an extraordinary setback in last week's local elections in England, losing more than 300 seats. While the party did well, particularly in areas with city mayors, and boasted strong gains in places like Worthing in the south of England, it was hit hardest in those places which until recently had voted solidly Labour from Sunderland and the north-east of Dudley and Oldham. Preston Council then, like nearby Salford, was something of an exception. There the party retained the ten seats it contested, leaving it with a sizeable majority. Given the likes of Peter Mandelson say that Labour's problems stem from its policies being two left wing, this should be surprising. After all, the council is increasingly famous for its Preston model of community wealth building, more of that in a second. Which is why I'm so happy to be joined today by the leader of Preston Council, Matthew Brown, discuss the Preston model and what Labour's response to last week's results should be. Does it now need to become the party of English devolution, as Andy Burnham has claimed? And does it need to make a bold pitch for public control and ownership at a municipal level? Matthew Brown, welcome to Downstream. Hi, Aaron, nice to be on the shelf, thanks for your advice. It's been a long time coming and I think we would have come up to Preston had it not been for the COVID crisis, but I'm sure we will. Before we go any further, I just want to say to people watching, this is Downstream. We do a weekly show. If you like what we're doing, click like, click subscribe. I think about 40% of you watching this will not be subscribed. So smash that button. We get videos out daily. You might be more familiar with Tiskey Sour three times a week, but of course, there's Downstream too. Don't neglect it. And I'm sure regular viewers of Tiskey Sour, Matthew, are probably quite familiar with the Preston model, what it's about, what community wealth building. But for those who aren't acquainted with it, you just kind of give a brief explanation as to why Preston Council is so lionized by parts of the Labour left in particular. Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of it's really common sense. And it's really trying to create wealth locally and actually be more resilient. So there's a more democratic economy. So it's about, you know, it's about trying to look at economic democracy, but crucially work with all our institutions to buy local, pay living wage, invest locally. But also the more radical side of it is more ownership in the local economy. So we're keen on work, our own businesses, we're keen on in sourcing, we're keen on establishing a banking alternative. We're going to build a cinema that's going to be in the ownership of the city. So the profits will go back to the community. We're looking at districts and community energy. So it's kind of like quite a transformative agenda really, but it does take time. I mean, don't think for one second everything in Preston is perfect. It's a very, it's an area that suffers lots of deprivation and deindustrialization, but this movement of community wealth building, very exciting. It's not just myself. It's Paul in Salford, Andy Burnham's on it now, Steve Rotherham, elements of it in Wales, but crucially there's an international dimension. So New York City, for example, are talking about worker cooperatives and, you know, even common ownership of data. So individual data is in a commons instead of with big corporations. So it's a very exciting architecture that we're actually discussing at the moment. And can you just very briefly give a kind of a blotted history of how this happened? Because of course, people are familiar that Jeremy Corbyn became leader of the Labour Party in 2015, but actually you guys started on this journey significantly before, didn't you? We did, yeah. We started around 2013 and a lot of it came from the failure of, you know, trying to get big, bring big developers to regenerate our city centre, the likes of Len Leeson, Groves, and a quite a traditional economic development approach. You actually get in many cities and many councils and that fails. So we thought we really want to try and be more resilient to try to regenerate our city centre through public endeavours. So our markets, our bus station, what the university is doing, it's all about doing it collaboratively and in public ownership. But crucially, we're actually, you know, we're encouraging local companies to actually bid for these contracts and they've been really successful and get local people on the projects as well. So it reverses that kind of culture you have in local government works, just basically a chief executive speaking to investors and developers and saying, well, we want to be resilient to actually have our own kind of like democratic local economy. But it's tough. It's really tough, really. There's lots of barriers against this way of thinking, but it's really getting into the mainstream now. Of course, all in the context of austerity. Given all that, given the kind of not unique offer, because like you say, that there's similar rhetoric and policies coming from Salford Mayor, now Andy Burnham, Steve Rotherham, two Metro Mayans for Labour. Given that, how was the campaign for you guys in Preston? How did you find sort of canvassing and what were people telling you on the doors? I mean, it was, I mean, things aren't perfect. Don't think about that very stretchy imagination. There is a general apathy with politicians locally and nationally. But what we did pick up on was a bit of inspiration, especially amongst younger voters. There was a sense that we appreciate that you're trying to do your best. And also as well, I mean, some of the stuff we did digitally. I mean, we reached thousands of people through Facebook and Twitter, but we also had an online campaign. So not a campaign, a debate. And there's about 1800 people in Preston watched it. And on that, I put forward a very strong radical message about trying to really transform our local economy and really protect people who might have suffered economic during the pandemic. So that was very relevant. So generally very positive, but people are quite cynical because I think they feel that politicians have generally let them down really and understandably so. But we're trying to get over that if we can with the powers and influence that we have. Because what you did was actually quite unique in Lancashire, if I'm correct, which was you stood, because you have three elections every four years, very strange system. Is that correct? It is. Yes, it is. We got we got we got a two-tier system. So Preston Council is comparatively small, but obviously big, big enough, big on ideas as you can imagine. So, you know, we got a third of our councils were up now. There was about six or seven councils, Labour councils, Labour-led councils in Lancashire. And we were the only ones impressed and who didn't lose a Labour councillor. And I don't say that with any pride because it's devastating. Every Labour councillor we lose is devastating. But I think because we've been on this for so long, I've been putting layers upon layers of it, whether it's a living wage, a local procurement of cooperatives or, you know, running the contact tracing service ourselves, we're the first to do that in Lancashire during the pandemic. I think it's resonated. It can't not have an effect because I think people see it in the media and they see that you're really trying. So, just to confirm that for our listeners, you ran 10 councillors. I think you've presently got 30 councillors, haven't you? And all of them were re-elected. And you actually closed the gap in another ward, if that's correct. So, actually, almost again? Yes. I mean, in Cadillie, we got within 250, actually, which was a lot better than last time because we're about, I think, 400 or 500 behind. And even in one of the real awards, which is generally conservative, a young candidate called Conor, I think he put on 10% of the vote, really. So, something's happening, which is positive here and he's booking the trend, you know, I can't say it's all down to community wealth building, but it will be having some kind of effect. They see most pandits, Matthew, would say that something like community wealth building is lost on average voters. They don't really care. How would you respond to that? You don't think that's true? It is complex in the sense it's a serious policy is involving the council and a number of institutions. But what they do see is they see our city centre that's been regenerated because we did wait for large global developers and potentially was going to semi-privatise a lot of our land to bring that investment. There was virtually nothing happening in our city centre for decades. And now, you know, we've got a shiny new market. The bus station's been rebuilt. You know, there's more money going into our museum. The university, along with ourselves, is regenerating the city. So people are seeing a physical improvement. And people also know that we've done lots to support, you know, to challenge food poverty as well before the pandemic and during it. You know, we've obviously done stuff challenging discrimination. So they see a very positive message from Preston City Council. I think it really has resonated. But, you know, the big part of it now, Aaron, is actually recovering from the pandemic because of structural inequalities of the last few decades. You know, it's really been exposed during COVID. And obviously we've got to try and lift people up. And that's going to be the challenge going forward. And was Brexit still being mentioned? Because, of course, obviously, there's a 101 issues going on. Like you say, obviously, the coronavirus has been the big story for the last year. But people looked at Hartlepool, three and a half thousand labour majority became a seven, eight thousand Tory majority voted 70% leave. And they say, well, that's because of Brexit. Was Brexit still a variable for you guys in Preston? Wasn't mentioned that much, really, which was a relief because two years ago, there was lots of anger about the fact that we still remained in the European Union. I mean, I voted to remain. It was quite a marginal decision, but I voted to remain in the European Union. So it wasn't there strongly. But I think there's a wider issue about this because politics is not the same as it was 20, 30 years ago. We've had a financial crash from that we've had austerity because we had to bail out the economy. We then had Brexit. And then also we've now got a public health crisis. So I don't think people want a moderate approach. I think people want genuine change. So in working class communities, especially, you know, people around the vote for Jeremy Corbyn did it in 2017 with a very radical manifesto of the order in things like voting for Brexit, because they do actually see it as change really in many ways. And we've got to respond to the fact that these communities 40 years ago would have had lots of social housing, they'd have had unionised jobs, they'd have had decent well-paid manufacturing jobs as well. And that's all been taken away. Now you've got, you've got, you've got casualisation, you've got insecurity. And I think people are voting in a way that is actually trying to express that kind of like fear that they have really. And I think us on the left, we've really got to try and, you know, capture that and appeal and offer something that's going to appeal to them. It's going to be substantial really. So Peter Mandleton, I think speaking to BBC World at One or something like that maybe through today's program, he said that the reason, one of the reasons why Labour lost hardly pools because of Jeremy Corbyn, you think it's not that and you think it's far more complex. Without a doubt. And I mean, I think Ed Milliband said that in the Labour Together Report that, you know, it goes back decades, you know, it's not just about individuals. You know, in the 60s and 70s, you did have, you know, 70% of people in trade unions in terms of share of the economy. I think there was 65% paid in wages is now about 50%. The cooperative movement was much bigger than what it is now. That's not been taken up with those working men's clubs. You know, there's that sort of solidarity amongst working people. That's a lot of that's gone really. You know, we've got to try and get back to that to be honest. I mean, the NHS came from, you know, it came from, you know, the Welsh communities and trade unions that came up with some kind of insurance scheme at the time as a cooperative that actually became the NHS. We've got to get back to that kind of like solidarity really and do something that's going to be substantial because people are really, you know, they're really under the caution now. And what I ever say, it's not about personalities. I don't want to trash any individual politician or anyone else. I just think it's, you know, what do we actually want to win power for? And what do we do with the power when we get it? And I think, you know, the transformative Labour government with a high minimum wage, public ownership, redistribution of wealth, tackling the climate emergency, most people want to see it to be honest. And if we don't offer that, I think it's we're going to lose support. So Preston, like I say, along with Salford was one of the better stories in England. This isn't a gotcha. You can answer whichever way you like. I thought I'd give you that sort of moment of preparation. Keir Starmer's never tweeted about Preston. As far as I can tell, he's never mentioned it in the media. He still hasn't mentioned Preston even after the local election results. Yet, you know, they've run stories in the national press about we need to show people that we're on their side. Preston councillors is illustrating what that looks like in the 21st century. And yet the Labour leadership doesn't really seem to acknowledge it. Does that irritate you? Is there a reason for that? Do you think? How do you explain it? I think he's obviously probably dealing with just being a leader of the party, to be honest. He did actually mention it February last year in the Labour list article during the leadership campaign. So there was a mention. It is correct. He's not mentioned it an awful lot. I mean, Angela Rayner did attend our launch event, which was really positive. I know that Ed Miliband is quite keen on community wealth building. But I mean, I do hope minds are open because what we're seeing is an international movement. As I said earlier, there's potentially solidarity between radical American cities like New York and Chicago that are talking about alternatives to capitalism, to be honest, within the communities. And this country as well and how Merce potentially can link together, especially with Joe Biden being successful in America. I think we're missing a trick if we're just going to ignore that because this is very much an international movement towards having more democratic communities and economies where people are in charge instead of big business and corporations. I think it's very appealing to people. And I think also people aren't used to it. People are that disempowered and have been for so long. You've actually said, well, you can own a bit of this company or you can have a bank which is yours. They're not used to it really. So there's a process of education I think we need to do through the Labour Party, trade unions and the communities to actually say, well, listen, you do have a right to actually be a bit more in control of your economic destinies. But as I said, this is all a struggle here. But it's exciting that this thinking was nowhere 10 years ago. Now it's really spreading. Very true. So you mentioned earlier on, Salford, Manchester, Preston. Are there any other councils in England and the UK where these ideas are really beginning to be adopted? I mean, there's tons to be honest. And it's across the political spectrum in the Labour Party. You've got a really nice guy, Joe Cullinane in North Urshire. He's got a very radical community to wealth building strategy. So that is quite exciting in Scotland. It's one of the few Labour-led councils in Scotland. Oxford, they're looking to, I think, triple the size of the cooperative economy. So there on it as well, Mark Drakeford in Wales. I mean, we're establishing a bank with our partners in Wirral and Liverpool, a regional cooperative bank to lend to local businesses and people the large banks don't lend to. Mark Drakeford supported a Welsh cooperative bank as alternative finance. So we know that the big banks caused the economic crash of 2007, 2008 that we've joined from the community. Now, these are people's banks, which are one member, one vote, and they can lend to things like cooperatives. So it's spreading, but it's really bringing it to scale. And how you do that in a country where the Conservatives have made local government the most centralised in Europe. And my own theory is we've got to create our own institutions, like our own banks and council own companies and other things to get around that and cooperatives. So it's very exciting times. And in 10 years, this could be very mainstream, to be honest. I love the fact that, you know, because I'm actually very excited about the whole municipal socialism agenda that you guys have really been at the leading edge of in this country. But obviously, we're talking in this, the context of the aftermath of some terrible election results. So I'm trying to be downbeat, but I do love this relentless enthusiasm from you. I think it speaks volumes about the project itself. I'm going to ask you one more question about people who are very downbeat. Again, going back to Peter Mandelson, John McTernan, you know, they've said that in order for Labour to win again, it must completely renounce the kind of policy agenda that we saw from the previous leadership. And of course, the economist famously said that, you know, Preston, the Preston model was the kind of the Corbynite city on the hill. Given your success arguing for a very similar set of politics, what do you think the consequences of that kind of shift away from the kinds of policies we've seen in recent years? What do you think would happen? You know, if there was a very public break by the party saying we're not really interested in the minimum living wage, we're not really that interested in giving a pay rise to care workers or NHS staff, which is effectively what we have seen in the last few months. I don't think that's what the party believes, but that's been the, that was the rhetoric. It shows not to go big on that in the local elections, not going big on public ownership. What do you think the political overhead of that could be for the Labour Party? Because that's that's the direction that likes to Margaret Hodge, John McTern, Peter Mandelson want to go down. It's not about personalities. It's about policies that are going to appeal to people. And then when we get in power, it's going to improve their lives. And the danger is a lot of social democratic parties in Europe, like the French socialists and others, they've been overtaken by other parties. You look in Germany, you've got the Green Party now who are pulling ahead of all of them. And as I said, when you've had austerity and economic crash, Brexit and a public health crisis, people don't want more to say they want change really. So I just say, I mean, I just want people to have open minds and have a very friendly debate about it. Because I think having a debate about a balanced debate about ideas and policies, it's always a positive thing, you know what I mean? And, you know, I understand how potentially this can be seen as a radical agenda, but you know, it's happening in America, which is the bastion of free market capitalism, and then it's saying something, isn't it? So, you know, there are trends here, which I think shouldn't be ignored. Do you think the Tories could adopt this at some point? Or do you think there's the possibility of certain Tory councils saying, we want aspects of what they're doing impressed in? Or do you think that's simply not plausible? They are actually adopting little bits of it. If you look at the NHS long term plan, it talks about what the NHS can do in terms of where it procures and where they recruit as well. So even the Conservatives are adopting a bit of it that says we want to support local businesses and potentially look where we recruit. But obviously, this is a labour agenda, in my opinion, generally. And, you know, the more radical side of it around putting more public ownership in the local economy, and that is something the Conservatives won't be interested in. So, I think, you know, it's our agenda on the left. I think we need to claim it. But there are aspects of it that might appeal across the political spectrum, especially if you're saying you want family-owned businesses in the community to be more successful with, you know, public contracts there, and they're worth tens of billions of construction and other things. And, you know, until recently, very few councils, and even the government, they didn't really look where they were going, you know, and didn't need to go to outsourcing firms. Could there be one locally? You know, if they can't be brought back in house, you know, so it's a fascinating conversation we're having at the moment. Do you think the National Labour Party, and this goes beyond the present leadership because it was the case of the Jeremy Corbyn too, but do you think the National Labour Party is kind of fed to communicate your agenda properly? Because whenever I went canvassing, particularly in 2018, which is actually quite a good set of local elections for Labour, 2018, 2019, particularly 2018, because people were really open to the conversations, obviously, a great general election year earlier. You explained the press and moulds them, and they went, wow, why don't we do that already? Tory voters would say this. That's brilliant. Why would anybody be against this? So what I don't quite grasp is why, you know, repeated national leaderships have kind of failed to articulate this, because it, like you say, it seems such an obvious agenda. And you can see how it could be the mainstream in 10 years. And yet, people aren't shouting it from the rooftops. That must be quite frustrating. I think what I just think was, it might seem a bit of a daft answer, but even on the previous leadership, the likes of John McDonnell were supported, but with that busy, it was difficult for them to find resources to actually support it. They said a lot about it, and the community organising units, you know, sadly now no longer with us. They were looking to support it as well. There was a community wealth building unit, but at the same time, you had the co-operative party, which is seen as probably a bit more centrist in the Labour movement. They were saying exactly the same thing. So there is a broad coalition for it, but I think this is, you know, potentially going to be the new normal soon. So I just think, you know, leaderships, whoever they are, they need to get behind it. As I said, there are some in the shadow cabinet that do really support it. And, you know, I just think many of us Labour leaders locally, we've become quite independent minded, like myself and Paul Dennett and Andy Burnham and, you know, many others really. But you know, we just think we just got to get on with the job locally and deal with what we have in front of us. Because we're on the front line, we've got to respond to all the problems that we have. And from that, we're getting this quite radical agenda really. So I think it's quite positive in many ways that you've got quite independent minded Labour leaders locally in many ways. So we're kind of just thinking, well, we need to do this work for the community. And, you know, obviously there is support from the national leadership to a degree, but I just think we just concentrate on what we're doing locally and hopefully we can win up them over with the ideas. That's really interesting. So, you know, the idea that you're generating quite an optimistic positive politics, fundamentally, because you're actually having to solve problems every day, which often, you know, when a national party's fundamentally about being a party of opposition, that's not necessarily the case. Final question, because it came from Andy Burnham over the weekend, you know, he was saying that Labour needs to get serious about a project of devolution in England, that Clive Lewis kind of semi pushed back on that saying actually we need to talk about a fundamental kind of federal recasting of the whole country, of the whole of the UK. What's your view on this? Because obviously you're part of a very, you know, I think culturally unique part of England up in Lancashire. You know, where do you stand? Do you think, would you like Preston, for instance, to have an elected mayor? Do you think Metro mayors should be adapted? Would you like regions to have more powers? I'm really interested in your thoughts on that. Yes, I mean, things are changing aren't they? I mean, if you look at 15 years ago, the ID and the SNP went out 50-odd seats in Scotland, it was seen as implausible. But I think, especially with the pandemic and some of the things that many of these mayors have said, I think we're moving towards that now. We've got to have more significant devolution boards. The danger with Tory devolution is it's often devolved the cuts. So even with the Metro mayors, we're still one of the most centralised countries of the European Union, which is not good. If you go to Berlin, you can choose to municipalise the water. We can't do that here. Or if we try doing that, we'd face a legal battle from the United Utilities. These are the choices that people have. Do you know what I mean? So I think, you know, the mayors are doing some good stuff, but they're still quite restrained. So I think the devolution is going to be genuine. You know, and again, my fear is often, you know, national politicians, they don't offer the change that people want. And then if you don't do that, then potentially, there'll be a backlash at the ballot box. And obviously, we all want to see Labour backing government as soon as possible. You know what I mean? People in across the country, we can't have any more years of conservative government, you know, and I just think we need a conversation about how best to do that. Getting us local leaders involved in it as well is really positive because obviously we're on the front line. I mean, to deal with things like the pandemic, which has been an absolute trauma for everyone in our community. You know, we've been on the front line looking at what's happening really and how to respond economically as well. So let's just have a conversation about it. I think that's the way to go. Can I ask you actually about the coronavirus? What big lessons have you learned at a local level? Obviously, you're having to coordinate this massive undertaking. What are the big takeaways of the last 12 months in response to that? Well, I mean, that was a lesson for me because I didn't get involved in local politics and expect to be in the biggest public health crisis since World War II. But what I did find is how disempowered local councils are, you know, around, you know, not running the contact tracing system when we should have done, they went around to that eventually. I mean, power has to shut venues down. You know, it really showed how centralized we are and how austerity has really made it difficult for us to respond. You know, it's been tragic and heartbreaking, hasn't it? I mean, the fact that they outsourced the contact tracing service to corporations who have no experience of delivering these outcomes, I think it's been really damaged how we could respond to it. You know, and then other things like not being able to source the PPE through the resilience forum, you know, easily having to go to China and Lancashire. I mean, things like that, it's just been really difficult. So, you know, it does really say that if you disempower local governments and you have years and decades of austerity and outsourcing and other things, when something like this comes along, it's really difficult to respond. And, you know, people are going to be at risk if that happens again, really. But, you know, I hope and pray that we're not going to see anything like this in the lifetime again. But who knows, you know, but I think there's lessons to be learned that we've really got to support our councils and give them the responsibilities and freedoms that are needed, really. So, whoever wins, we can actually do stuff that's going to be quite meaningful. And how did you come to the conclusions around this kind of model, you say it's been sort of adopted since 2013? Obviously, Labour lost in 2010, you know, there was a sense of kind of intellectual malaise around the Labour Party before 2010 with Brown and Blair. It certainly wasn't stuff like this. So, how did you find out about this stuff? How did you get in a position impressed when we had a critical mass of people saying, this is how we want to do things? I understand, of course, there was the failed regeneration project with the Tithe Barn, I think it was called, but obviously, certain people had to have those ideas before the opportunity arose. So, what's the political background of people who are championing this stuff? Is it just stuff you sort of first observed in the US? Did somebody come over having seen that themselves? Yeah, I mean, it was, there was a cleanup, obviously, I'm quite a bit older than that. But, I mean, 10 years or so ago, there was a couple of comparative younger councils, myself and Martin, who was the Cabinet Member for Resources currently. We're quite keen on economic alternatives. So, you know, we read about Mondragon in the Basque Country of Spain, where you've got a network of co-operatives and how the life expectancy is better than other parts of Spain and the gap between rich and poor and parts of Italy, where it's a similar kind of thing, Quebec social economy. And I'm thinking, well, this is really, it's really in tune with our socialist values, but also there's an evident space that when it's done on that scale, you have really positive improvements for the community, both physically and psychologically and collectively. So, we were looking at how we could emulate that. So, you know, the ideas were there that we came across the evergreen co-operatives in Cleveland, where the big hospitals and universities bought goods from new worker co-operatives and they put them in the mostly deprived areas. I think there's hundreds employed in there now in the mostly deprived areas in Cleveland. We thought, well, this is what we want to replicate to a degree. And then it's kind of like it's really gone beyond that in the sense that that was one idea. We've only got about 50 or 20 now that were implemented at different stages, but it takes time. I mean, not everyone in Preston is going to be aware of this. I mean, there are benefits, but, you know, there's different things happening in different places. Some people have received a pay increase because of living wage. Local people have received jobs because there's more wealth going to local companies. Obviously, the co-operatives are coming along now. We've been trying to get our taxi drivers and have got them into a worker co-operative. So, yeah, some of them to challenge the likes of Uber, you know, so it's building that culture and, you know, local employment, local investment from the public pension funds. We've got some food co-operatives, food purchasing co-operatives that are starting. So, it's really exciting actually. It's good, you know, but it's a big tent approach really because the council is quite small comparatively. So, we need to work with the university, hospital, the community, even the business community as well to a degree to actually bring that change. But, yeah, it's the beginning of something potentially quite big, you know, and just watch what's happening in New York and Chicago, Google the Preston model, Google Community Wealth Building and how it's really expanded in 10 years. So, you know, come down and visit us at some point. It'll be more than welcome. Oh, my God, no, we will, we will. I mean, such a good news story is over the next six months and Preston is most certainly one of those. So, yeah, you'll have to carry our producer will have to be holding me back. Yeah. Okay, well, Matthew, we'll let you go and carry on with your good work. Thanks for making time for joining us today on Downstream. Okay, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much. Our pleasure. Cheers, mate. Fantastic. You know, obviously, we're talking about English politics and the aftermath of a terrible set of results for labour. But I think even even in that context, you could see that Matthew's enthusiasm, his optimism, I think justified optimism came shining through. Really fantastic guests. I think a really important topic. We'll be talking about the Preston model so much more over the course of 2021. Before I go, like I say, you're watching Downstream. This is Navarra Media. If you enjoyed that interview, if you think you'd like to see more content like it, please like and subscribe to this channel. But also, also go to navarramedia.com forward slash support help us build a new media for politics. We have Tiskey sour, we have podcasts, we have Downstream, we have articles, we print so much content. And it's only thanks to the generosity of our kind supporters. We recommend you pay one hour's waged work a month as a as a subscription, or we'd like to call you supporters. Or if you just want to make a one off donation, you can do that too. Like I say, navarramedia.com forward slash support Michael Walker is back tomorrow with Tiskey sour. Again, like I say, if you don't want to miss that hit the subscribe button. My name is Aaron Bostani. This has been Downstream. I'll see you very soon. I hope you have a wonderful day. Bye bye.