 Oh f**k! Oh my god! Okay, so here we are back at Leicester Square, back at the front of the steakhouse. We've got a table with a message on it. We're going to see if the public can prove me wrong. Let's do it. Come sit. Come talk about it, mate. Do you want to have a chat, mate? You agree? Excellent. Dude, can I try this? Yeah. Are you, like, louder with Crowder? Kind of, the vegan... No, no. Kind of, it's a good format to have a discussion about it, though. Yeah. I don't disagree with you. I'm just curious. So, do you disagree or agree? I'm vegan. Oh, you're a vegan. We can't talk. Yeah, come sit down. Do you want to fight? Do you want to fight? Because I can't fight you. Oh, no, no fighting. No, just discussions. Did you say fight? As in... Yeah, as in a rebel fight. Oh, no, no, no. Just talking. Communication. Am I on the right? Yeah, yeah, we can talk about it. I don't know whether I should... Are you not vegan, though? No. Okay. Well then, yeah, come and have a chat. First of all, thanks for sitting down. Oh, cool. You're welcome. I'm Joey. You're welcome. All right, Joey. Okay. So, you know you're being filmed. This is for YouTube and all that. Yeah, cool. Yeah, so, I come in peace. It says you have a moral obligation to be vegan. Prove me wrong. Okay. What does that mean to you? A moral obligation to be vegan. It means that, according to what you think is right, being vegan should be part of that. Yeah. So, let's talk about what you think is right. You're not a vegan yourself? Not yet. Not yet. Oh, wow. But you think it's right? I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. There are a lot of benefits to eating meat. Apparently, the proteins from meat get into your system a lot quicker than they do from plants and stuff. So, it's better for you in that sense. There are civilizations that survive solely on a meat-based diet. Okay, solely. As far as I'm aware, I'm not a scientist. Okay, so you're not too sure about that? No, no, no. No, that's okay. And yeah, I might grant you that the protein from meat might get into your system quicker. There's a lot of things in meat that might absorb quicker. It might not necessarily be good for health. But let's just talk from a moral standpoint. You're against animal cruelty, animal abuse? To a degree, I mean, an animal is an animal. You know, they're not people. So, as far as you can respect animals, as they're not causing them unnecessary harm, making sure that they're taken care of. If it's your domestic pet, then, you know, full for your obligations as a pet owner. But outside of that, I don't believe in giving animals coats and shoes and hats and all that stuff, you know what I mean? Yeah, but you agree with just leaving them alone and... Oh, yeah, of course. Let them be. When you say unnecessary harm, what would that entail? As in walking by and kicking a cat. You know, shit like that. Like if you were to hurt an animal for your own pleasure? Yeah, yeah. So, do you derive pleasure from eating animal products? Good question. Yeah, because it tastes good. I'm not much of a foodie. I'd rather be doing something else than eating, but when I have to eat, then, yeah, meat is good. Yeah. Tastes good. So, like, obviously it's a little bit more indirect, but you're deriving pleasure from an animal being killed, yeah? I can accept that, yeah. So, like, I'm going to talk about your ethical framework here, like what you deem as moral towards animals, not what happens in, you know, back in time or, you know, in some other country or some tribal situation. So, your framework to do with your morality towards animals would be not to cause them unnecessary harm and just leave them alone. Right, you can eat them. Because, well, you can only because it may be... You can. ...measuring. Well, I can. Yeah, and it doesn't breach your moral. It doesn't, because animals at some level are there for... I don't know, to serve. They're part of an ecosystem which serves us and we're at the top of that chain. Oh, really? Yeah. Interesting. All right. I mean, lions don't feel guilty for killing deer. Likewise, maybe we shouldn't feel so bad about... Yeah. No, they wouldn't, would they? They're in a different situation to you. That's why I talked about your moral framework, not lions. Okay. Do you see what you did there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you went put into a lion's morality to us. See, a lion would kill... They can kill each other too. They don't give a shit about that. But we wouldn't kill each other. We're civilized, aren't we? You know what I'm saying? In recent times, yeah. You and I, absolutely, you and I. I'm talking solely about your moral framework, because this is about your moral obligation to be vegan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can go with that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, like, you said you don't agree with just people kicking cats for pleasure and... Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah. And I said, do you derive pleasure from meeting animal products? You said beef burgers, yeah, man. Yeah. And you said you don't agree with unnecessary harm towards animals. But how is that unnecessary? Eating them? Yeah. Ooh, now we're getting to the necessary thing. How is that unnecessary? Because I don't see how I can sustain myself on a solely plant-based diet. Because you can't see yourself... How you can sustain yourself, does that mean you can't? I don't know, because I haven't tried it. So I'm not going to say no yet, but I mean... How would I do that? How do I do it? What do I do? How do you go about that? I don't see it being practical. Okay, well, let's just say you could. And it was... You could thrive. And it was possibly healthier for you. But let's just say you had the same health as you did now, eating a plant-based diet. Would you then feel like it was a moral obligation to do that? I'll put it like this. If I could get away with, let's say, not harming animals. Because that's... You know, if it means don't harm the animal, yeah, I can not harm the animal. And I'm getting the same intake, nutrients and all that. Then, yeah, show me. Show you how? Show me. Well, that was pretty easy then. So you've been told that you need animals for your health, essentially, for certain nutrients and... Yeah, to a degree. But then it's my lifestyle. It's been my lifestyle up until this point. So it's all I know. What you're telling me is that it's not necessary. And I have a moral obligation to be the opposite way. Fair enough. So show me. Okay, okay. So there's this big peer reviewed statement that the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics put out. They're the largest group of nutrition professionals on earth, about 100,000 of them. It says you can be healthy as a vegan on a well-planned vegan diet through all stages of life, including pregnancy, infancy, adulthood, the elderly. So this is a very big peer reviewed paper. It's backed by nearly 120 studies. Would that be evidence enough that you can be healthy on a plant-based diet? It would be evidence to a degree. But why the moral obligation? Why is it wrong? Why is it wrong to eat animals? Because you say it's a moral obligation to be vegan, which implies to me that it's wrong to be the other way. Okay. It's not necessarily wrong to eat an animal. It's wrong to what, how we get to that point. Right. Like if you saw a decomposing animal on the side of the road that had died naturally and you went up and ate that animal, I wouldn't have a moral problem with that. But what we're doing is we're breeding billions of them into existence. We're stealing their children away from them. We're bulk gutting them in the skull, chopping them up into pieces, and then we're eating them. Right. But they do kind of serve a purpose, because everything that's in the animal we get, and it helps, right? Human slaves served a purpose too, didn't they? Oh yeah, I know everything about that. I'm of African descent. Okay. Okay. And that was an argument, wasn't it? Oh yeah, a very big argument. An argument that still exists. Wow. Not a very good justification though, hey. So because you say animals serve you, does that, then it justifies us taking their rights away and not, they don't really have a voice like human beings do, but that doesn't justify what we do to them, would you agree? I guess it doesn't, but I don't see any other way. I mean, I believe you're still yet to show me how I can sustain myself. You know what, you can hold that for a sec. I'm just going to show you some of the ways that we kill animals. This is a gas chamber here. With sound you can hear them screaming. They're gas pigs. Yeah, this is in the UK, they're gas pigs. They're gas pigs. A third of the pigs in the UK are gassed. They gassed them to death. And then they stabbed them in the throat when they come out. What? Yeah, they're sticking them in the throat, in the jugular. While they're alive. No, they've been gassed so they're rendered unconscious and then they stab them in the neck. What? Well, why do they have to gas them? It's just a way of stunning them. They're stunning them instead of a bolt gun. They're hard to handle pigs. I didn't notice. I... Fuck! Well, I don't have to do that. I mean, there's a better way to kill the pig. Jesus Christ! They're male chicks in the egg industry. They won't produce eggs so they grind them up alive on their first day of life upon hatching. Standard practice, free range organic eggs do this. The baby chick's still conscious, boom. So this is what I think it's wrong. I... Then it's simply slidding their bird's throats. Yeah, I know. I mean, even for a long time. Oh, f***! Oh, my God! What the f***? Why haven't you seen this before? I don't know, because it's... I don't know, it's not... Advertised. I'm watching power instead, or... You know what I mean? This is f***ing crazy! Why did it... But, all right. Why do they have to do that? To do what? Bolt gun them in the head? Well, whatever they're doing, because this is unbelievable. How are they going to kill them? Many of them on a mass scale. These are baby bobby calves in the dairy industry. They don't produce milk. So they kill them soon after birth. Then it's babies. He's cutting their throat. He tried to escape. Where do you think meat comes from, dude? They miss this whole part in between out, don't they? Like, that's a dairy cow. They don't produce milk after a while. Then they become useless. They just... They kill them. I didn't know... I didn't know they did that. I didn't know that the animals went through that. The cow should be stunned first. This one wasn't stunned correctly. You can't always stun them all correctly when you're working with so many. Sheep get the heads cut off. I don't know if you eat lamb or whatever. I love lamb chops. I used to as well. I used to as well, yeah. But I don't love them as much as that. That's not right, though. I mean, you don't have to do that. 2016, this is still happening. No, you don't have to do that. I don't love lamb chops as much as I hate that. 2016, dude. This is how... This is... Fishbin torn out of the ocean. Suffocating. Suffering. You've only seen the package in the supermarket shelf. This is, uh... That's disgusting. So, hold on. How long is it stored like that before you eat it? Oh, it depends. It really depends. Days? They sometimes hang them for 21 days or... You know... A week. Sometimes they're... Three weeks before you eat it, so it's not fresh. Well, they're not warm, technically. After... You know, if you ate them straight after death, they'd still be warm. Would you reckon that make it better if they were fresh? I don't know. From a moral standpoint, like... I need to have a look at this, but I've not seen... I didn't know... You can look into anything. I didn't know that the cow... I didn't know that they were being treated like that. You know what I mean? What's the ethical way of killing someone if they don't want to die? Just do it quickly, man. If they don't want to die? Well... We're talking about animals here. Human beings are also animals. I'll give you that for the purpose of this conversation. Biology. Well... Let's look at what we have in common with animals. We're both sentient, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Feel pain, suffer, want to live, we have families, we... We have will, we have desires, emotion. You don't think they're machines or... No, of course not. But obviously, their consciousness is not at a level where we are in the sense that we can manipulate our environment like almost completely to suit our needs. Animals don't really have that. I mean, they have it to a degree. Some. Some are very... Some. Fantastic animals are some. But then, in general, we're able to... We're able to live our lives on a much higher level of... Complexity. Complexity. Ordered communication and that kind of stuff. Yeah. So... Communicating is very complex and... Yeah, that's how we pass knowledge on to... Recognizing patterns and storing those patterns and then pulling them out for reference. Yeah, we have that over the animals. Okay, I can concede that apart from that, there's not much different. But that is a pretty big differentiator. Okay. Not all humans can, though. Not all humans are complex intelligently. Some are born with mental disability. Yeah, and again, you know, that's... What about babies? Babies, yeah, because they're at a developmental stage. And again, for those unfortunate enough to be born with, let's say, drawbacks... Disabilities, you know, but that's not the standard for... We would still grant them human rights. Absolutely, because they're human, first. Why wouldn't we grant those same rights to animals, even if they don't have complex cognition like you do? Only because they're called animals. Seriously, I mean... Yeah, I'm trying to be funny because we know them as animals, then they're just not humans. And so they can't have human rights. I get it. So, do you understand? You know, we use that to justify what we do to humans as well. We call them animals. Yeah, I know people have done that. I know people have done that in the past, but then animals are actually animals. Again, it doesn't take away. I mean, that was terrible. I genuinely had no idea that that happened to beef before I got... Cows. You know what I mean? What a cow. Beef comes from a cow. You're just separating the two. Yeah, but, you know, I mean... I didn't know. If we just recognize that animals have the ability to suffer and want to live and feel pain and value their families, you know, we don't necessarily have to grant them all these amazing things, you know, like, you know, but at least leave them alone and respect them based on that. I could get with that. The other side of that would be, give me something to replace that lifestyle. Do you understand? A practical issue would come up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not talking about, like, now you've taken away all the beef and all the chicken and all that shit. I've got to get about 4.30 in the morning to start boiling vegetables so that I can have... Do you see where I'm coming from? I don't want to do that. I would like to be able to continue my lifestyle. I would hope that a vegan diet or whatever wouldn't impact my... No, convenience factor and all that. I understand that. Like, do you cook your own food now? Yeah. Okay, so it wouldn't take much more time to chop up a bit of tofu and put that on a grill instead of a bit of chicken? I guess not. Yeah, I mean, if you knew what to eat, beans and grains and legumes and peanut butter and all those things, and bread's still vegan and pasta's still vegan and rice is vegan, and if you knew what to do, that practical issue would disappear. And then you'd feel, well, it's actually not that much of an inconvenience for me to look around and get the plant milk. I mean, yeah, because you're talking to somebody that would much rather do a million things and eat food, dude. What a big deal for you. No, food is... I'm not that kind of person. This is? This is? That is because I have to eat. Do you understand? Yeah. It's a big deal, though, like for you, like in your conscience? Yes, in the sense that it's a big deal because I have to eat. So where the food that I have to eat comes from, that matters. Eating isn't a big thing. I'm pretty slim, do you understand? Like I said, I'd much rather be out playing the guitar, blah, blah, blah. Food is an interruption for me really, so I've got to eat. But yeah, I mean, if I could suck it down and destroy it and it was all plant-based, I could get back on with what I was doing. Fantastic. You know what I mean? Well, there's this challenge called Challenge 22 on Facebook. You don't have to, you know, it's free. You don't really have to do much except sign up on Facebook, challenge22.com. You do a little vegan challenge. They show you where everything is, you know where to get the plant-based milks. London, here, very privileged for vegan alternatives and options. Very convenient. Most of the places have vegan alternatives, but vegan options now. You can avoid this very easily, especially in your local Tesco and Sainsbury. You're already under, not the soy, what do you call it? Almond milk. Yeah, yeah, almond, yeah. There's many to choose from that. Don't involve what we do to cows and their children being taken and killed and all of those things. So if you have a choice, do you feel that the moral choice would be to choose the plant-based? More moral. Is it moral? I mean, yeah, you know what? Based on the fact that they have to suffer? Is suffering moral? No. So, yeah, I can see where you're coming from in that aspect. In terms of my moral compass, does it hit me there? No. But can I see how it's a better lifestyle? Absolutely. And do I want to be better? Yeah, who doesn't, right? You know what I mean? I'm not here to fight what could be better for me. It's just that at the start, you told me what your moral framework was with animals and you're kind of going against that when you consume them. Yeah, I understand that. But I mean, let's put it this way. Like I said, if you can show me, then why not adapt? If you've got a better belief system, then why not adopt that belief system and the reasons for believing? Do you understand? So why not? Let's do face, what's it? Challenge 22. Challenge 22, brother. Cool, right? Really good conversation with you, man. You're welcome. Challenge22.com. I'm Joey Carbstrong, by the way, and you can find Joey Carbstrong. Yeah, and I used to be a meat eater, too. I never saw this, dude. Right, right. Yeah, I was actually a gang member before, as well. So I was committing violence in Australia. There was gangs. And I was involved with them and I was quite a violent person. But I still was against animal cruelty, which is crazy. And I never knew my steak had to come to the plate like this, so you're not alone there. Cool. Well, I live on YouTube all day, man, so I like this collection, bro. You'll be on there? Yeah, I'm on YouTube all the time, so. Yeah, so the comments section can be a bit crazy, so don't worry about that. But that was a cool conversation, bro. Thanks, man. Lovely. Challenge 22, brother. On you, mate. Let's go. You next. How can you prove you are not harming any animal? You're trying to point out some type of hypocrisy with me.