 Hello and welcome to the OIST podcast, bringing you the latest in Science and Tech from the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology Graduate University. My name is Andrew Scott. Today, I'm talking with Dr. Gong Ping Yeh. Born in Taiwan, Dr. Yeh started his scientific education in Okinawa, where he attended the CKS High School. From there, he would begin a storied career, with degrees from Caltech and MIT, before working as a high energy physicist at the Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois, USA, an institute he would remain with for 30 years, while he'd researched atomic and subatomic particles. Dr. Yeh was also instrumental in the earliest establishment of OIST, as a special advisor for Japan's Minister of Science and Technology Policy. Today, he has come full circle as he acts as a member of the advisory board for the OIST Foundation. Dr. Yeh spends most of his time as chairman of his own GP Yeh Foundation, which collaborates with governments, institutions, organizations, and companies around the world to promote particle therapies and sustainable energies. Visiting OIST to deliver a special lecture entitled, Particles for a Better World, I caught up after with Dr. Yeh to talk particles, progress, and positivity. Gongpin Yeh, welcome to OIST. Thank you very much. I assume you do a lot of flying around. In the amount of time it takes to grab a quick bite at the airport snack bar, how would you describe who you are and what you do? So I was born in Taiwan, and then I couldn't survive the Asian education system. So I escaped to Okinawa to come to this international school. It was called Christ the King School. It was a Catholic school, and I came here for four years, even though in the beginning I couldn't speak English or Japanese. And because it's an international school, we were supposed to take a foreign language, so I took Spanish in English when I didn't speak English. But in any case, four years later, I went to MIT. And once I got to MIT, then they gave me everything. I started doing particle physics as a freshman at MIT. And then MIT gave me the best research, and then I also went to Caltech for a couple of years, and then went back to MIT and then Fermilab. And I've been able to just work on the best science and technologies all my life. Thank you. So you've mentioned in your talks before that we are in the field of particle physics, all the particles that can be discovered have been discovered. What's next for particle physics? What do you do? So the whole universe, all the matter, everything that we've seen and the interactions are these six types of quarks and six types of leptons and the four fundamental forces and their force carriers. Well, in the last hundred years or so, we have found them all. So we can see back 13.8 billion light-years. So we see the whole universe. We know the universe has about 100 billion galaxies, and the typical galaxy has about 100 billion stars. We know them all. We've seen the black holes. We've even seen the pictures of black holes these days. The top quark, for example, it lives for a trillionth of a second. And if it has any size at all, its radius will be less than 10 to the minus 17 centimeters, comparing even to atom which is minus 10 to the minus 8 centimeters. So it's at least a billion times smaller than the atoms. So we see them all. We understand the universe very, very well. We are so fortunate, so privileged. Anybody who's living now, we know the universe is so well in the last 100 years. Well, but, you know, yeah, there are still a few big questions remaining. For example, if you ask me, well, we can ask. Okay, so we understand this universe very well, but how many universes are there? Heck, if I know. So I don't know. Okay, so then you can ask, well, what happened to all the entire matters? Because in our lab, every time we do a collusion, we produce particles, we get equal numbers of particles and antiparticles. But if you look around in the entire universe, we don't see antiparticles. So what happened to them? We don't know. Okay, or what was it before the universe started? What was it before the Big Bang? Well, we don't know. Okay, so there are a few big questions remaining and anybody that can answer any one of them will win a Nobel Prize. Okay, so there are big questions remaining and I'm sure getting to those answers, we will need to invent more technologies that will also be able to help the world. So there are still things to do, but we know the universe extremely well. Do you have any advice about where someone should start looking? Well, you know, some, a lot of the discoveries come in strange places. But right now, to do these things, you still need the world-class places like OIST or Fermilab or CERN or Big Labs with the best equipment. Okay, so those are the places. I would encourage all young people to do their best, go for it. Okay, that's what I did. You know, I always wanted the best and somehow I always got it. I'd imagine that, well, people may be aware of particle physics and what it is in the broadest terms. I mean, myself being a biologist, I have a very vague understanding of what particle physics is. But is there something about particle physics you wish people knew more about but didn't? I was always good when I was a kid. I was good at math. And then, well, math is nice, but I want something to do with our universe. So then I got into physics. And then in the physics, the most frontier is particles. It's even beyond nuclear physics. Okay, the particle physics, we use trillion volts. Nuclear physics is millions of volts. Our energy level is millions of times higher than nuclear energy actually or other fields. So the frontier of all sciences, in my humble opinion, is particle physics, high-energy physics. And I like the fact that there are only six types of quarks and six types of leptons. So the total number of particles is around 20 or so, I don't know. Okay, in contrast, nuclear physics, you have all the elements and you can have two to 300 particles in the nucleus. So everything else actually to me, it's too complicated. I find that particle physics is actually the simplest. You're a strong proponent of new technology employed into sustainable energy projects. How do you get from particle physics to sustainable energy? Oh, okay. Actually, until the discovery of the park, the rest of the world had nothing to do with me. I was just fully focused on the particle physics. And it was the last few years that I was going to just fully concentrated on the discovery of the park or something similar to that. And then one day my mother asked me, this top quark, when can we use it? I said, hmm, it lives for a trillionth of a trillionth of a second. And we have to do a trillion collisions to get one of them. So I think probably we won't be able to use it for at least a thousand years directly on Earth. And she said, oh, so you are the world's most useless person. So I tried to defend myself. I said, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, to do this study, we have to invent all kinds of things. And they're good for the world. For example, our colleagues invented the worldwide web, and we just gave it to the world. So it completely changes the world. And I myself, then after the discovery of the top quark, I said, well, let's share. We should be able to, all the worldwide collaborators should be able to control formula from anywhere they want. You know, they don't have to be at the formula all the time. So I tested the remote control room. I took some equipment and I could control formula from San Diego or anywhere in the world, or Japan. So I did that in 1995. And then we we knew that even though we discovered the top quark, we need a Trojan collisions to see one of these things. And every year, they're only 30 million seconds. So even when we do a million times per second, a year later, we want to get 30 of these. So we knew that we weren't good enough. So we wanted to improve everything by a factor of at least a few hundreds to a thousand. So then I said, wait, wait, the computing power that we were using, the computer that we were using was already $5 million. Now I want to go a thousand times more, that would be $5 billion to buy a computer. That's not good, right? So so I suggested to use free software Linux and the world's cheapest processors. And fortunately, Intel Pentium Pro came out. So that was pretty fast. So we started using Linux and the Intel processors and to make clusters. At first people said, oh, no, are you crazy? That's not possible. Linux is not stable enough. And the Intel processors is not so reliable or whatever. It's not scientific. It's for the general public. Well, we tried it a few months later, and we found out that instead of buying a workstation, $10,000 or $20,000 each, we can make the same thing equally as good with less than $1,000. So we showed this in the supercomputing conference. We were very brave. We took a Linux and Intel processors of 10 PCs or so, showed it in the supercomputing conference, and then the rest of the world followed. So then I was, because of these, because of the physics and the computing, then Taiwan asked me to be on the Taiwan's presidential advisory committee for science and technology. So I was down there for a little while. And then one day I decided to come to Okinawa because I hadn't been here for a while. And then Governor Inamie Lee of Okinawa says, oh, you're helping Taiwan. Could you please also help Okinawa? I said, hmm, okay, well, Okinawa, you have the US military and you have tourism. So that's good. But I think you can do a little bit of science and technology, you know, just the best clean type. And so he goes, oh, okay, good idea. So I said, well, well, you can send graduate students to Fermilab and start training them. So immediately he approved to send five graduate students from New Q University to Fermilab. And so they came and learned about computing and things. And then by great fortune, in 2001, Japan had Prime Minister Koizumi in April of 2001. And he appointed, you know, his cabinet staff. And one of them was Minister Omi, who was in charge of Okinawa and Northern Territories and also the science and technology policy of Japan. So they were discussing what to do in Okinawa and the idea of, okay, well, let's do a little science and technology and start a new university or something came up. And so then they suggested that they come and discuss with me about what to do. I was asked to give a presentation in Tokyo just to share my experience from MIT and Caltech and Fermilab. So I did. So the idea was, okay, well, let's build a university, something like MIT, but maybe the first stage, the Caltech size. And also, even though the funding comes from the government, it should be governed by an international board. So that's how we started. So once it got started, okay, my role is done. So I went off to do something else. Then Minister Omi also started this thing called Science and Technology in Society Forum in Kyoto every year. So I've been invited every year. So I go over there. And when you go there, you meet prime minister, ministers from all over the world and Nobel laureates and industry leaders. So I thought, hmm, we have all these people here. What should we do? So I started working on that. I said, what are the most important challenges, biggest challenges in the world? So there's energy, there's water, food, health, peace, security. Because I'm a physicist in energy. So I go, oh, I work on the energy problem. And actually, energy is the key. If you think about it, if you have enough energy, clean energy, then you can also help to solve food problem or the water problem and the peace challenges. So I thought, okay, well, I'll work on a sustainable energy thing. And then again, because I'm a physicist, I go, hmm, well, there are people working on the renewable energies, wind power and solar power. Okay, well, what about, that's great. It's making progress, especially in the last five years or so. Wind power, solar power are doing great. That's great. But what about nuclear energy? You know, this question, can we use it? So I started looking into that. And actually, if we completely fundamentally change nuclear energy to make it 100% safe, no nuclear waste problem, no weapons problem, and affordable, and we can use it for thousands of years or tens of thousands of years. Well, then why not use it? Okay, so you're talking about like molten salt and thorium? Yes. So, so we need to fundamentally change nuclear energy. Don't use the solid fuel, use liquid fuel, then it's automatically much safer. Then you won't, if anything happens, you won't have this fuel sitting there melting down, right? If it's liquid, when the temperature rises, it will expand and the process will decrease. And you can dump the liquid into a tank. Then, okay, so it's essentially 100% safe. And, or if you use thorium instead of uranium, now, thorium doesn't proceed by itself, doesn't have a nuclear reaction by itself. You have to continuously give it neutrons for the process to go. So you can just stop the neutron source and the process will stop. So you can also make that 100% safe. Okay. And because it's element 90, not 92, so the amount of the radioactive waste automatically done by four orders of magnitude. So instead of, imagine instead of 10 tons, you get a kilogram. And then the half-life of that is instead of hundreds of thousands of years, it's maybe 200 years. So you already reduce the nuclear waste problem. And then it's more difficult to make weapons with it. Okay. So you basically solve all those problems already. And in fact, we can actually destroy the nuclear waste in the world and break them down to something safer. We can actually do that also. So we actually can fundamentally change nuclear energy. And so now, China, Europe, Russia and the U.S. are in a competition towards new types of nuclear energy. So I expect within that small number of years, we're going to have completely fundamentally new nuclear energy. So I'm happy with that now. Okay. So now I say, well, what do I do next? Right? So this is a big story. And I had, because the first director of Fermilab was a giant in science, Dr. Robert Wilson. He was one of the world's accelerator experts. And he started Fermilab, Fermi National Lab. And he also invented the particle therapy, proton therapy and heavy weight. Okay. So we Fermilab have been helping leading proton therapy and neutron therapy. So in 1986, the Fermilab started building the first proton therapy for hospitals. And by 1990, they finished building it and put it in Loma Linda Hospital in California and treated patients for 10 years. And by 2000, the world only had one proton therapy in the hospital, Loma Linda. And it showed it was the way to go. Okay. So now, at this time now, the world has about 70 particle therapy centers, mostly protons and maybe a dozen heavy ions. So I'm happy already with the proton therapy and heavy ion therapy. Wonderful. The proton therapy worldwide has already treated more than 200,000 patients. And heavy ion therapy worldwide has treated more than 20,000 patients. It's really good. It's much better than the old conventional radiation therapy, just from the physics because it has the black peak. So you can target on the tumor. These days, you can actually 3D print the protons or the heavy ion carbon to the tumor according to the shape of the tumor and minimizing damage to good cells and most efficient in killing the tumor. So I'm happy with that already. But there's a new way. There's another way because even with the proton therapy and the heavy ion therapy, they have charge. So their interaction is actually electromagnetic. It knocks off the electrons in the atoms. But if you use neutrons, the neutron doesn't carry charge. And its interaction is purely nuclear. Okay, so it's much stronger and more effective. It goes in there and breaks the nucleus and the tumor will never come back. And also, for example, instead of typically 30 sessions for proton therapy, you just need one session. Okay, so we did the higher energy neutron therapy before and we have treated worldwide a few centers, treated using higher energy neutrons. Neutron therapy have treated more than 10,000 patients. But you have to be careful with that because you cannot control the neutrons. So it's less accurate. Even though it's stronger and more effective, but it's less accurate than the proton therapy or heavy ion therapy. But there's another way which was invented actually decades ago by MIT and Brookhaven lab, which is called boron-neutron capture therapy. So what you do is you put boron into the same liquid that you take in to detect where the tumor is. Like, you know, you have this sugary glucose liquid and you added the fluoride 18 that gives the signal to pet so you know where the tumor is. Okay, then the same liquid you add boron to it. And boron is really good at stopping low-energy neutrons a million times more than its interaction on this low-energy neutrons interaction rate to carbon or oxygen. So these low-energy neutrons will have no effect on your body essentially. Okay, but if there's a boron in there, it stops the neutron, the low-energy neutron. And then it breaks down. The nucleus of the boron breaks down, gives you lithium nucleus and helium nucleus, which we call alpha particle. And these are nuclear particles, and they kill the tumor cells on the spot. And nothing else. It's range. It's only only 10 microns. It's only the size of the cell. So perfect. So you put this boron into the cancer cells and you shoot just low-energy neutron, which has a no effect to anomalous cells in that general direction. And wherever this boron will stop this low-energy neutron, and then the nucleus breaks up and kills the cell. So instead of the proton therapy or the heavy ion therapy targeting the tumor, according to the shape of tumor, now we target the tumor cells itself. That's incredible. I mean, going back through that catalog you just given me, you know, this is something that we don't hear in science a lot. This is all good news. Why isn't this getting further traction in the world? Why isn't this more prevalent in our cultural knowledge? Yes. So, okay, comes together with this fact that I'm one of the most privileged, that I'm always at the very frontier of science and technology. You know, another way to say it is my whole life, I have been on the bleeding edge of science and technology. Okay. It's cutting edge and it's leading edge and it requires work. Okay. Blood, sweat, and tears. Okay. So we have to convince people. You know, most people don't know it. Okay. Very few people know it. And then we have to let the people know. We have to let the hospitals know it. But you know, even the changing the supercomputers, we have to convince IBM, right? Okay. So we have to demonstrate things for a while and convince the big companies or the companies and others. Okay. We have to lead by example. You can't just tell somebody, hey, you know, this is a good thing to do. No, no, no, you have to demonstrate it. So this thing, this BNCT is similar. So until now, it actually has treated about a thousand patients worldwide, essentially terminal cancer cases, the last try. Okay. So we try this and they have been effective. Okay. So how come it hasn't gone more widespread? Until recently, until now, the source of these low energy neutrons are research nuclear reactors in some universities or in some national labs while you can't put a research reactor in the hospital. Okay. And also, all the research reactors are retiring. Okay. So what you really need is a small neutron source that you can put in hospitals that can provide these very low energy neutrons in large quantities. Okay. And for this BNCT, can we do that? Oh, yes, we can. Okay. So when, you know, in any science field, to the experts in the field that have been in the field for decades, they may think that it's impossible, but to another person outside of the field, it may be, oh, this is trivial. Okay. It's just finding out missing piece. Yeah. So we have to have different scientists and technologies from different fields to discuss and work together. Okay. So if you think about the nuclear energy issues, challenges just from the nuclear physics, you say, nah, that's impossible. Okay. But to us in the high-energy physics, we say, oh, that's easy. Right? Because you feel you're dealing with a million-year-old trombone. But we're dealing with trillion-year-old trombones. Okay. So to give you a million-year-old trombone things, it's easy. We small, accelerator would do it. So in this case, okay, and to provide this low-energy neutrons instead of nuclear reactors, all I have to do is I give you a small accelerator, four meters long. We're done. Okay. So even for this BNCT, as far as the accelerator part, I think we solved it already. Okay. Any hospital that wants this accelerator, we can do it. Okay. So the remaining challenge for this BNCT is how to improve the delivery of the boron to the cancer cells. And, you know, just to the cancer cells and nothing else. Okay. And as best as possible. Now, this actually always can help. You have always has lots of biology experts, chemistry experts, nanotech experts, and many of them are already doing anti-cancer studies and drug delivery. So it always can help with this boron and delivery to the tumors. Always can help that part. As far as the the neutron source, the small accelerator, that's already solved. We already solved it. So then we can and then we can put these, the system in many, many, many hospitals worldwide and we will be able to save large number of patients worldwide every year. As someone who is around for the very, very conception of OIST before it even had a name, what is your impression of OIST now that we're 20 years down the line? And what would you like to see us do in the future? Since the moment that we were discussing OIST, OIST had the strong support of everybody in Okinawa. Every person in Okinawa that I met says, this is important for us. Please succeed. From fishermen to the all the way to the governor. Everybody says, please succeed. This is once in 100 years the chance for us. Please succeed. And because of the vision to be at a new world-class university and especially also helping Okinawa. So it also got the support, strong support of all lots of scientific leaders worldwide, including many, many, many Nobel laureates and many, many other world top scientists has tremendous support, always has tremendous support from worldwide science and technology community and everybody in Okinawa and also many of the leaders of Japan. So this is a fantastic project. The idea is very simple. Let's create the best environment for science and technology and just invite the best talents from the world to come and do his or her best. That's it. It's really, really, and then everything else will come from there, okay? You know, you know, improve the economy, you know, improve science and technology in the world, you know, improve Japan, you know, all those will follow. Just the key is just to have the best place for the best people to come and do their best. That's really simple. Finally, okay, so it started, it started, it opened in 2011 or so and now it's already rated as top university, top research university in Japan and one of the top in the world. So it's doing very well. It's a little small still. It needs to get to the caltech size, okay? So over the next few years, 10 years, it should get to the caltech size and then it will be fantastic, even more, even more fantastic, even more wonderful than now. These can be often quite depressing times in terms of science. The results that we get back about how the world is progressing and how the environment is changing, the rate at which we're able to achieve or maybe not achieve certain things. How do you keep your positivity about it? Because you seem to be very, very upbeat about what science is doing. So as I say, I feel that I'm one of the most privileged and so because I've been dealing with, you know, I've been also working in the technology field, not just physics, but also technology field, you know, cancer treatment and computing, right? So I met some business corporation people. Have you heard the smart investors, the big investors, they said a crisis is a terrible thing to waste, right? Okay, so we have crises, right? Yeah. Wow. You know, if another way to look at it is crises, great opportunities, okay? So we are privileged, all of us are privileged, all of us who are associated with OIST, we are privileged, okay? We can make a difference. We can make a difference. We can help save the world, right? How much better can that be? Yeah. Okay, so let's go, all right? Let's save the world. That's how I look at it. I said, I'm privileged to be able to help, okay? And so it actually becomes, well, I have to help, right? If I don't help, you know, it doesn't happen. So I have to help. But because we know how to help, we can help solve the cancer problem, we can help solve the world energy problem. So let's go, right? Yeah. So is that the crux of your finding? Yes. So because many people, including some of my friends, they know me and they know what's possible, what, you know, what I want to do. So they help me solve this GPA Foundation. And they want to work with us, work with me and with whoever would like to, to work together and help solve some of the world's challenges. Actually, I think I'm done with the nuclear energy thing, okay? Now there's a Sputnik 2 going on, right? So, okay, my role is done. So, so now, more recently, in the last couple years, I go, hmm, what should I do next? Well, if you think about it, it's renewable energies for islands. Hmm. Okay. So the big countries should take care of themselves with the wind power, solar power, and the new nuclear energy. Well, islands, you don't need nuclear energy, really, most of them, right? And almost all islands are importing like 95, 98% of their energy from oil or coal. That doesn't make any sense. Okay. They can just use wind or solar, right? Or even ocean waves or ocean power. So Hawaii started trying it a few years ago. And immediately they say, wait a second, we can say billions every year doing this, right? So I think by now, more than 50% of the houses in Hawaii have solar panels on top, okay? And in Germany, there's a new requirement, any new house, new building has to have some solar panels on top. Hawaii has a statewide policy. By 2045, Hawaii wants to go 100% renewables. Okay. And even here in Okinawa, Kumejima Mayor says, oh, we want to become 100% renewables soon, okay? And then even Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico, after the last two years of a hurricane and destroying their electric grid and things, they now also have a policy to go 100% renewables by 2050. Actually, Okinawa should have the same policy. Okinawa should say, hey, let's have 100% renewables by 2045 or 2050, okay? This can actually lead, Okinawa can actually lead the rest of Japan and Asia in that way. If Okinawa says, we want to go 100% renewables by 2045 or 2050, that would be fantastic, okay? And this BNCT thing, this cancer therapy, we can have BNCT in the hospital in Okinawa, okay? And we can bring the world experts to work together. And as I said, we already solved the accelerator problem, okay? And some of these experts and all these can help with the drug delivery or boron delivery to the cancer cells. And we can have a world-leading BNCT center right here in Okinawa. Now, because each patient only requires one session, every day, you can treat 10 patients, okay? Now, every year, there are more than 300 days. So, each center, each treatment room can actually treat 3,000 patients per year. Wow, okay. The proton therapy, because each patient requires 30 treatments, so each treatment room only treats 3, 400 patients per year. Now, you can treat much more, and you can lower the cost, and it's more effective. That's the way to go. That's why I'm excited about this BNCT and renewable energies for islands. And all my friends, they want to join, they want to collaborate on it. You've got a little bit of time left in Okinawa. You know the island very well. As someone who visits very often, what's your favorite thing to do when you come to visit Okinawa? Well, I enjoy visiting my friends. It's often said that, you know, even even some Nobel laureates say, oh, if you want to have the best Okinawan food in Okinawa, ask GP, right? Actually, when I come to Okinawa, my friends take me to places I don't have to know. So the trick is, get friends locally. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for listening to the podcast. It was recorded and edited by me, Andrew Scott. Special thanks to Dr. Gong Pinye. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to get more as soon as we release them. And we always love to read your reviews. So why not let the world know what you think of the show? You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter, or send us an email to media at oist.jp. If you'd like to learn more about the OIST Foundation, you can go to oistfoundation.org. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.