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All right, let's let's see When did you join the police force I joined the police in 1977 21st of March 1977 it's a date ingrained in my mind and I was a science technician. There was a senior technician in a school That's a date ingrained in my mind from Ireland I was at the top of my game age 22 and I joined the police for a challenge. I Quickly recognized the CID. That's where I wanted to go wanted to investigate crime as I progressed I started off as a Constable a uniform constable and then became a detective constable I was a detective constable working is it in the lower levels part of the team now, you know It's not always when I retired senior investigating officer. It's not just about Me as a senior detective. It's about the team and I was part of that team lower down So I understood the whole processes all the way through and as I moved on in the rank It became a senior investigating officer as a detective inspector a senior investigating officer a detective chief inspector more complex investigations and then ultimately when I left the police a Detective superintendent a senior officer dealing with very high profile complex investigations But everything that you do but you worked your way from the bottom up You was in the trenches with that though, you know, then you was handing out tickets and traffic that first You worked your hard work paid off. Okay, deal with is a detective. You're dealing with housebreakings. You're dealing with robberies burglaries rapes serious sexual crimes murders everything and nowadays, you know ultimately a In my later years. I was dealing with terrorist act the Glasgow airport Terrorist attack. So the variety in the police is unbelievable Do you remember the most violent crime scene you've attended? Her name is Angela Thompson. I always remember the names of the victims and it was a sunny afternoon I was a detective inspector. We get a call to go to a place in a place called Irvine Because there was a girl in the garden with no head the boyfriend Ryan Fairney who is now dead he believed that she was having an affair with other men And he cut her head off You see what love will make you do man. Like you got to be careful who you fall in love with Because love can turn people into Into gruesome killers Be careful with a beer bottle and a close Horse Head off with a beer bottle and a close horse a Beer bottle in a what I can't get that I don't know what he's saying the second word with a beer bottle you cuz about easy decapitated somebody with a beer bottle That's different and then ran away with the head this case didn't really make the media made the local media That's a horrendous case a horrendous case and that's one that sticks in my mind but they all do When you attend something like that and witness someone in that kind of way How does it make you feel one thing that is is talked about quite a lot in Challaging roles at the police in the military And in medical people is do they do they become hardened to what they see As far as I'm concerned as a detective I have never become hardened to what I see because I You're human and you can't detach yourself from the fact that you're looking Person that's been killed violently by an argument being so It's very difficult. It's very difficult. I Guess I guess but it also depends what type of side of the fence you're on, you know I'm saying What side of crime you're on you're an officer you have to have a heart You know I'm saying but I'm pretty sure the criminals that are doing it develop Like they come obviously they become cold-hearted or hardened you're dealing with what you're what you're always thinking in it in the challenging Investigations particularly the big complicated ones, you know where there's huge media pressure on on you as a senior investigating officer You're thinking have I made a mistake? Is there something else we can do? Can we do this again because you know that whatever you do you make a decision? Police officer interviews in the street there a detective sergeant whatever but ultimately the SIO seen investigating officer makes a decision You're making a split-second decision That can be tried and tested at court people could be spending hours Researching that decision that you made and say why did you do that? Mr. Swindow, why did you make that decision and you keep records policy files of it things like that, but everything is so so fast-moving and There's a lot of emotions a lot of pressure but for me I always Looked to myself as I take a step back and assess a calm rational attitude Is there a type of case or a case that sticks out with you that's had the biggest effect on you particularly heartbreaking? I think probably One of the big ones a personal and professional life defining Change for me Was the murder of a Polish student Angelica Cloak in a church in Glasgow in September? 2006 by an individual called Peter Tobin I just lost thousands of He remember names and anything I mean I would expect you to Angelica Cloak was a Polish student that came to Scotland to better her education I wanted to send back to her family in Poland Glasgow. She stayed in a church in Glasgow St. Patrick's Church in Glasgow She disappeared She completely disappeared one day. It was been dealt with as a local by the local uniform chief inspector backed up by the local CID as a missing person But that changed as a week went on Because what the local chief inspector and the local CID established was that the last person she had been with There's a person called Patrick McLaughlin the handyman at the church Patrick McLaughlin was in fact Peter Tobin a missing sex offender That is when I became involved. I was a senior investigating officer dealing with various types of complex inquiries. I'd never understand how people just Switch their names and live with another identity like what goes all into that like other people just be doing that The way I'd be sounding they'd be making a sound easy And I get the call from the Chief Constable's office a Friday afternoon that this was now a high-risk missing person Peter Tobin had raped and tried to kill two young girls and haven't near Portsmouth in the 1990s early 90 and He was sentenced to prison. That's why he was a sex offender Right, but he was a registered sex offender and had gone off the radar. So we have a real concern Missing sex offender using a false name Missing young woman Where is she where? It's Peter Tobin How did you know that Pat McLaughlin was Peter Tobin? How did you know that that was Peter Tobin using an alias when Angelica Clute went missing? It was established that she had been with the last person she had been with was the church handyman Oh, you've probably seen the picture of him and noticed them Patrick McLaughlin and Patrick McLaughlin worked for a homeless Charity called the loaves and fishes. He actually had a name tag Patrick McLaughlin What had happened was the police the local policeman on making investigations had gone public and they put that picture out publicly And people came forward to see that's not Patrick McLaughlin. That is Peter Tobin So we'll range for the church to be searched the church have been searched before But the dynamics and the categorization had changed. There was real concerns for Angelica Clute so the church was searched using a team of experts Poles a police search advisors and found Under the floor the body of a young woman We couldn't say who that was at that time due to injuries and the person That was vital to that was a person Carol Rogers who has appeared on the Lord Bible before And Carol was a scientist And she told me at the government do not move the victim body And she explained why because of the injuries and because of other body fluids if the body was moved It would mean that we could destroy evidence So Carol Said okay. I'll go under there and take samples Meanwhile, I'm dealing with the huge Impact the media Sky TV live stuff from the scene Criticism by Angelica's family. Why didn't they find the body is that her body in there? We didn't know at that time I've still got to do the forensic they still got to do the forensics get like DNA and things of that nature The injuries were too catastrophic to just look and see right? They had to really really really really find out all credit to the scientists and that is one thing I have always said as I progress through the police trust your experts and trust your team and Carol she lay under the floor and she took samples from the body of a young woman and with what she found and what other scientists found We could piece together what happened To that young woman. It was only as a result of clothing DNA ultimately that we identified that that woman under the floor was Angelica Cluck Angelica Cluck Had been battered over the head with a table leg She knows crazy and he's targeting like foreign people like people that come to the country to get a better education Like they do they be oblivious to certain things like same air something in America like They just be oblivious and they like befriend people like it's like nothing Like they I guess like in somewhere like Poland or or somewhere wherever like they don't really have Crime I guess I don't know I don't want to put I don't want to assume nothing but like They just be overly friendly Nobody's ever told them to like watch over your shoulder Some people's intentions are what they really seem to be or things of that nature, you know, I'm saying been gagged And there's a sword bound cable ties she been starved and she been raped And then she'd been dumped under the floor like a bag of rubbish concealed underneath the church floor Underneath the church floor sounds crazy. It's a lot of things that be going on in the church It's tough at this point Peter type in becomes a suspect How did it come to be that you arrested him for this crime? Well, there was various aspects about this investigation But you know regarding evidence regarding forensic evidence But the big one there was a manhunt Peter Tobin's face was flashed all over and he ran and he was found In a hospital TV and he was found In a hospital in London he checked into your hospital London in a false name and someone recognized them like you don't need an ID or nothing People this man didn't been Peter Tobin the other name now. He's another name like and that is how we became involved That's how we tracked him down and of course when we start looking at Tobin I I decided when I saw the injuries that he'd caused and the way he'd concealed her body He'd stayed at the scene for a couple of days probably hoping that she wouldn't be reported missing and Then something changed the dynamics change of that and he left the scene and I thought my mind this guy is 60 You don't get to 60 and it's the first time you've killed in that fashion The sufficient I know you're 60. He got better. He got 60 Vacation the violence the crime scene management where they covered up things at the scene They moved a shed where it had taken place you'd rebuilt a shed all these things added up in my mind I thought he's done this before and that's when I decided to look at There's either a genius or he had to have done it before his life Because I believed he had killed other people he was convicted of the murder of Angelica Cluck in May 2007 And after he was convicted that is when we went public with operation anagram regarding other potential victims We had been working in the background, but we couldn't go public Before he was convicted of the murder of Angelica Cluck. There had been Stuff with the case and we identified a Tobin had been in Bathgate a place near Edinburgh 1990 1991 and it was the same time as a young woman Vicki Hamilton had gone missing and the police Losing with the police the Edinburgh police that were dealing with that missing person They conducted a full review this man lived a 60 year life of freedom just going around our our word and people women and then Unaliving them but 60 of them. I'm pretty sure he didn't start when he was a baby, but like Like he could have been early 20s and started doing it is He was going this a while and then just got better and better at it like for lack of better word But missing person and as a result of that review We've got forensic evidence that linked Tobin to the Vicki Hamilton case and that also included searches of the house where he stayed where they found a dagger the pulse of the search Advisor teams found a dagger and on that dagger was DNA and there was a purse that was belonging to Vicki Hamilton What a purse I thought he said puss had been found at a bus station in Edinburgh and on that purse was DNA and the DNA Was Peter Tobinson? Lincoln Peter everything, but they had to really really search though That's real detective work. It was further inquiries done relation to throughout the UK Looking at Tobin's life where he was Timelining look at his whole life. We did it in laser on every single head of CID What he was involved and what they did was reviewed all our missing people and one that came under the radar for us operation anagram Was a missing girl? Dina McNichol She'd been at a lip hook music festival And she'd been hitching a lift with the guy she met that day and when she was Hitching a lift they get picked up. They get a lift from a guy a Scottish guy the person that stopped at a service station and The young guy that she was with had gone into the garage service station and When he came back out the car was gone So Dina was nowhere Her money had been used her card had been used along the route Along a particular route and also in the town of Marguerite Marguerite is where Peter Tobin stayed at that same time 1990 1991 he stayed in Like I'm sorry, I would never in my life And I know it's a different time a different era, but I would never Hitchhike no ride. I'd rather walk 40 miles along the highway Then jump in somebody car Like I'm not doing it basket And he stayed in Marguerite at the same time in arrangement between both houses inquiries then were made locally That house he stayed at in Marguerite And a witness was traced that spoke about Tobin He's called him Scottish Pete nice Scottish Pete digging a hole in a back garden With the help of the head of CID there at that time Tim wills to detect the superintendent in Essex Because of the Essex she was from Essex. They conducted a search a full Excavation using forensic archaeologists and other search specialists first body that they found The first there was multiple was actually that of Vicki Hamilton And I get the phone call and I couldn't believe that Says it was Dino expecting to be there. It was Vicki Hamilton And then they continued excavating and found the body of Dino McNichol buried In the back garden in graves prepared graves deeply down in polythene shooting He went It was three separate court cases for now artificially He said deep down with a cover of what Polly what did you attend prepared graves deeply down in polythene shooting polythene shooting It was three separate court cases for Peter Tobin Did you attend court at any point? Peter Tobin was convicted may 2007 of the murder of Angelica Cloak. He was then convicted After a trial in Dundee of the murder of Vicki Hamilton and then at Chelmsford court in Essex the trial for Dino McNichol I was at that court trial. I was sitting there watching And then watching Tobin looking at me looking at everyone making notes laughing feigning illness Absolutely horrendous. You get a full life tariff For that murder of Dino McNichol. He got a full life. Yeah, but to sit there and look at him and see his behavior there Absolutely horrendous. You get a full life tariff For that murder of Dino McNichol. He got a full life. Yeah, but to sit there and look at him and see his behavior there And he's total contempt for victims at 60. He was doing this. So yeah, he was definitely psychopathic He's just a horrible guy horrible horrible individual that's in total denial of what he's done Peter Tobin is like many serial killers He's a controlling individual. He's a cunning individual And he's an assist He'll speak and he spoke in interviews. He spoke and spoke and spoke And he spoke about his favorite subject himself. It's like Ian Brady and all these other people Ian Brady the Moore's murderer It's about control. It's about speaking about themselves and that's what it was with the woman is in total denial of The angelic occult murder and then the other ones that we found the other victims that we found How you deny it? They get the bodies is in your backyard. Like what you mean? Haven't dealt with people like Peter Tobin and other murderers. Do you believe evil exists? Yes Absolutely There's a big Concept round about people that kill murderers. Is it nature, nurture or born evil? There are people that are just born evil, but for me, it's very difficult as someone that has dealt with The victims dealt with the victims families and see the killer to actually mitigate Some of the issues and say it's a shame that person Killed because of something that happened in their early childhood There are progressive things that happen people something it may be triggers it in their early days But a lot of the killers are just evil Do you think Peter Tobin was evil Peter Tobin was evil Peter Tobin has killed other people We don't know who else is killed. He's definitely killed other people But the fact that he targets people that were vulnerable at that time So I'm saying very vulnerable people Hitchhikers, you know, obviously you hitchhiking because you ain't got nobody to call for a ride Vulnerable somebody from Poland There by herself studying for school vulnerable the fact that you can Hang around religious establishments Helping groups the fact it was a very Affable time. Yeah, I mentioned that I forgot about that. He was at the church scouting That is evil a guy And the fact that he buries victims Probably never know who else is killed But Tobin for me was evil, but all cases killers Potential to kill again, but there's different types of murders There's different types of murders and the serial killers are high-profile ones They're cunning Controlling Kniving charming and they can be clever It's all about power and control the people like Ian Brady and Myra Hindley Fred and Rosemary West You've got these people like Tobin you've got these people It's a challenge for them to see if they can get away with it And they'll show similar traits about power the power of being able to take a life away about Trottling someone binding them Watching them the victim to the last breath really conduct take their ultimate Fantasy that they've got is taking a life away and there's right through them all they're all different But the element there is the power For them to be able to do it and it's about control and that is a feature in The serial killer types, but there's so many murders so many different types of murders sadly so many different types of motives They can be the the murder in the street a street fight gang fight drunk Organized crime All sorts of different types of murder investigations, right? Peter Tobin passed away in October 2022 When you heard that news, how did it make you feel? Peter Tobin was a person that feigned illness throughout his life He checked into hospital and false names at the trials He feigned illness and said he was ill and he was taken away to disrupt the trial and we kept getting Information out there, you know intelligence or media reporting that Tobin was dying I never knew what to believe and then in October He was like the boy who cried wolf What was the wolf? And she was clothing Last year I got the call that he was dying and for me Bro, live to be what 80 that was a big big thing to hear that but more so for the families of the victims He died taking secrets to the grave like Brady like so many of these people. They took secrets to the grave and I just I always hoped that someday you might reveal what else is done. I mean Fred and Rosemary West who killed unknown amount of people Cromwell Street in Gloucestershire Rosemary West is still living and I always hope maybe she'll do the right thing and see what she has done But I've said it before Brady Tobin and other killers suck life They're dead secrets. I've taken been taken to the grave When you look back on your career in the police force, how does it make you feel I? Look back at my time in the police and that I think I Think about everything and I think about how lucky I was to be involved in working in such complex investigations and when I Left the police hate to use the word retired because you know, I'm still there's life after the police. I always say When my phone rings in the middle of the night It's something to do with the family member before my phone would ring in the middle of the night and it would be Someone's been murdered. There's a dead body lying the street. That is the life Working 20 hours a day sleeping in offices all sorts of stuff But I look back at it. They say I'm proud of the high-level detective police officer It's not get that confused with a beat cop Tlo leave a like comment subscribe turn on your post notifications. That was interesting I ain't even alive. It's been a while since I've watched something interesting on lab Bible But lab Bible man, you know get it out there man. So look