 Good afternoon everyone. My name is Jane Sugimura and I'm the co-host today for your condo insider program. And this is the weekly show about condominium living and we're here to discuss issues that we hope are relevant to people who live and work in condos or have anything to do with condos. And today as our guest, we have Catherine Piazza. She's the enforcement attorney with the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission. Catherine, thank you for being here. Nice to be here. Why don't you tell us about the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission? What is that? The Hawaii Civil Rights Commission was created in 1990 and we enforced anti-discrimination laws and employment, housing, public accommodations and state-funded services. And why would that be of any interest to somebody who lives and manages or works in a condominium? It would be important because condominiums are subject to the fair housing laws, which all board members should know about. And it's important if they do receive a complaint to know how to respond to a complaint and also know our process and what we will do and what will happen during that process. Okay, well, who can file a complaint? Can an owner file a complaint or a renter? Or who can file a complaint? Well, let's talk about housing complaints. Okay. A housing complaint. So who can file a housing complaint? In terms of housing complaints, almost anyone could file a housing complaint. If they were harmed, a tenant, a guest, a tester, legal aid in Hawaii has testers. They could file a complaint if they alleged that they're harmed, then they can file a complaint if it's within 180 days. They can file a complaint at our office. They can also file a complaint at the HUD office, the Housing and Urban Development within a year. And they can file, rather than going through our agency, they can file directly in court within two-year period if they feel that they're harmed and they are in a protected class. Okay, protected class. What's a protected class? Well, in Hawaii, we have specific protected classes and the protected classes are race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, familial status, sexual orientation, HIV, age, national origin, and national origin are protected classes in Hawaii. And so what kind of complaints are filed with the commission? Give me an example. The most common complaints in housing are disability complaints. Okay. We also see familial status complaints and retaliation complaints. What's, give me an example of a housing complaint. Housing complaint, they would file under all these protected classes, but the most common would be a disability. So it'd be something like a person requests an accommodation because they have a disability and then the housing person or the board member doesn't grant the accommodation and they file a complaint at our office. Okay, so that might be like a wheelchair? Yes, that, if someone is in a wheelchair, okay, so if someone's in a wheelchair and they want to make a modification to their unit, such as widening the doors and the housing provider does not grant that request, they could file a complaint that the housing provider did not provide a reasonable modification to their unit. What about doors? Cause doors are sometimes really hard for somebody in a wheelchair to open. Yes, so a modification could be that they widened the doors for their unit. And so the, if they made that request and they were able to provide verification that they needed that modification and the housing provider did not allow them to make that change, then they could file a complaint at our office. Well, what about like I said, doors are hard. I mean, they're hard for people in a wheelchair. They're hard for people who are elderly or maybe if they're disabled and they're on crutches and the doors are heavy, like the front door. And so what if you said, you go to the manager and say, I'm really having a problem with the doors. Is there something that the association can do? So maybe I can hit a button or sometimes you go and they have these sensors and the doors open automatically? Yes, and that's great that you mentioned that because essentially a lot of tenants or residents won't make a formal request. They will go to a manager on property or maybe a board member and say, I'm having difficulty with pushing the doors open. And so it's important for that person to know that that might be a modification request or an accommodation request. And to take it to the board and let them know that that person made the request. In other words, they can't, you can't ignore it when somebody asks. No, you cannot ignore a request. And that's what we see is that even a delay would be considered denial. So if someone made a request two months prior and then they took it to the board, that could even be a denial because they delayed it for two months. And what happens if you, if there, what happens if the commission finds that there was a denial? Well, so our process I can kind of would be that we, the person would file the complaint and then the HCRC investigates that complaint at that point where neutral we will interview the board members, we will interview the tenant or the resident who complained. And then a reasonable cause determination is made. And that's when it gets transferred to the legal team. The legal team will then review the case and we will try to settle the case. Oftentimes in settlement, complainants will ask for monetary relief which includes emotional distress. It would include actual damages. And if we're not able to settle it, then we would go to a hearing and then we could ask for punitive damages. We could ask for attorney fees. And so it's important to know that in the beginning, we are just investigating it in the beginning but at the same time, there may be large payouts that the board of directors and the association will have to pay if we do find a violation and have to go to hearing. And you're talking about fines in addition to attorney fees, if you're found. Yes, we could do civil fines if we proceed to an administrative hearing, yes. And when you talk about civil fines, how much money are you talking about? Well, it would depend upon what the hearing's examiner will award. But one violation under our statute is $500. So there might be multiple violations and then there's also emotional damage to the complainant which can go from, I've settled cases from 5,000 all the way to 75,000 to $100,000. So it can cost the board a lot if they decide that they don't want to comply with the law. So that means that if they're found guilty of denial of an accommodation or discriminating against the complainant, that means that they might pay a fine of several thousands of dollars as well as paying an award to the complainant. Yeah. So, I mean, this could be very expensive. Yes, it could be. That's why we do encourage settlement during the investigation and we try to get the complainant what they would want, either the modification or the accommodation and disability case. And then we try to encourage settlement after we find a charge. However, often, you know, if they do not decide not to settle, it becomes even more costly as it goes on into a hearing and it could even be appealed to circuit court. So these cases can go on for years if the board members decide to continue to fight and... Let me ask you about another one. We were talking about, you mentioned familiar status is a protected class. Yes. Familiar status mean to people who have never been involved with the Civil Rights Commission. Right. Familiar status is a protected class in Hawaii under state and federal law. And it means that a person is protected under this class if they are domiciled with a minor child and or they are trying to gain custody of a minor child. And in Hawaii, we often see that a lot of families have Hina'i relationships. And so that is also protected under the Hawaii law. So it would be a family with a minor, who is living with a minor child. And in Hawaii in particular, it would also be Hina'i children. And so what kind of complaints do you get relating to familial status? We see complaints ranging from discriminatory statements such as in their advertisements when someone posts something on Craigslist for a rental, they might say, no children allowed. And that's not permitted? No, it's not permitted. Because it particularly points out children and it excludes children from the rental unit. The other type of case that we see is policies that prohibit children from playing on the premise. You mean like house rules? Yes. House rules that use the word children. Yes. So that should be a no-no. So the no-no for condominiums is look at your house rules and see if the word child or children appears anywhere in the house rules because more than likely those rules are probably discriminatory and in violation of this familial status rule. And we do understand that there is maybe a concern for somewhat skateboarding on the side of the, on the sidewalk. However, we would recommend that you say no skateboarding rather than no children skateboarding. So you want to just make it as neutral as the rule as neutral as possible. And oftentimes with familial status, you may even put in a different protected class. So it wouldn't be fair for someone to say no disabled people on the sidewalk. Or, you know, so sometimes it's housing providers can replace these protected classes to see if it would be a violation. So that means that if you had a swimming pool and there were signs on the swimming pool that said no children without adults. That would be discriminatory? Depending upon the reason and the safety concerns, but you would want to look to the rule and see why that rule is in place and try to make it so that there is a rational reason for that rule. If no children can be in the swimming pool without adults, why? And it's just like saying no disabled people can be in the pool without an adult. So the board members are concerned with safety, but that's also the parent's concern. That's not actually the association's concern. And it's better to make neutral policies, neutral rules that don't reference children. And so you're saying basically the house rules, they have legal consequences. So maybe the association, the board, should take a look at their house rules to see if the children are singled out in the rules and maybe disabled. And they should really look at their house rules with a view to try to pick out those provisions that seem to target a specific category of people. Yes, I would recommend that they look at their house rules and consider whether or not they can revise their house rules to not pin out a particular protected class. Okay, well we're gonna take a break right now for a little while and we're gonna come back and talk more with Catherine. All right. Okay. Hello, this is Martin de Speng. I wanna get you get excited about my new show, which is Humane Architecture for Hawaii and Beyond. We're gonna broadcast on Tuesdays, 5 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii. Aloha kakou. I'm Marcia Joyner, inviting you to navigate the journey with us. We are here every Wednesday morning at 11 a.m. And we really want you to be with us where we look at the options and choices of end of life care. Aloha. Aloha, my name is Josh Green. I serve as Senator from the Big Island on the Kona side and I'm also an emergency room physician. My program here on Think Tech is called Health Care in Hawaii. I'll have guests that should be interesting to you twice a month. We'll talk about issues that range from mental health care to drug addiction to our health care system and any challenges that we face here in Hawaii. We hope you'll join us. Again, thanks for supporting Think Tech. Okay, welcome back. We are here with Catherine Piazza of the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission. And Catherine is sharing with us basically good reasons why people who live in Kondo, you listeners, should become familiar with the Civil Rights Commission, mainly because they are here to enforce discrimination laws. And it's really quite important for you to know about the commission and know how it works because if you don't know, you could face huge penalties, lots of attorney's fees, and maybe years of aggravation, right? Why don't we talk about disability? Okay. We already talked about the wheelchair and the doors. Can you describe, I mean, how would a complaint be brought? I mean, would it be the person who's disabled who would bring the complaint? It could be the person who is disabled. It also could be someone who is living with the person who is disabled. And so they would file a PCQ with our office. And what's a PCQ? It's a pre-complaint. Okay. So they file a complaint, a PCQ. They can either do that in our office on Punchbowl Street, which is 830 Punchbowl Room 411. They can just walk in. They could also file it by going online at our website. And so they can file that and then it would be assigned to an investigator. Does it cost money? No, it does not cost money. Okay. So they can file it with our office and it would be assigned to an investigator and they would interview the complainant or the person who is filing on behalf of the disabled person. And then it would be investigated. And so they would gain evidence from the complainant as well as the, we call them respondents, but it would be a housing provider. And then the process would begin. Okay. And we were talking about, the request would be to make a reasonable accommodation. What is considered a reasonable accommodation? So we talked about the person with a wheelchair and the door is not wide enough. So he would want to make the door wider. Yeah. That would be considered a modification because it's a change in a structure or the unit or a common area. Reasonable accommodation would be a change in a rule or policy. And so accommodation would be, for example, if their house rules are on the internet and they need a hard copy for their disability, that could be a policy change that they're requesting or another common accommodation request is a need for an assistance animal. And then the other common accommodation request that we receive is a parking stall that may be needed for someone who is disabled and it needs a parking stall that is close to their unit. Okay. And so how do these complaints get to you? Is it that the person who is disabled makes the request to the board, to the association and the association turns them down or how does it get to the commission? Yes. So the complainant or the person who making the complaint comes to us. It could happen in many different situations as you speak but that's a common example is that they make a request to a board member. They could even make a request to a maintenance worker and nothing happens. So what you're saying is that for people listening, they should train their staff that if somebody comes up to them and says, I'm disabled or I need to have some kind of a button so that the door opens because it's too heavy or I need some assistance or I want to have an animal help me. Right. It's very important for the board members to be trained, for the maintenance staff to be trained, for anyone who deals with tenants or residents to be trained on fair housing. That is one of the number one mistakes is that there's no training for the staff. And so if the request is made to an employee and the employee does not pass that onto the manager and it doesn't get to the board. Exactly. And what if the board says, well, jeez, nobody told us. Does that excuse them? No, they're still liable because that person is their agent and they're responsible for training that person who was informed of the request. Okay, and so with this reasonable accommodation, it might mean, okay, we have to allow a change. Who pays for the reasonable accommodation? Let's say opening up the door of the unit. Who pays for that? Because modifications are more costly than accommodations. Usually the tenant will pay for the modification. Or the unit order. The unit order, yes. Or the person who is renting the unit, if someone wanted to move in and they said that they would be willing to change the doors, that could be a possibility as well. But in terms of accommodations, because they don't cost much money for the housing provider, it's usually the housing provider who is required to pay for the accommodation. So let's say you have a wheelchair and you want a ramp. Can you make the association put in a ramp? You can make them agree for you to put in a ramp, but you would be responsible for the cost. And they can ask for construct, to see who you're planning to use to construct the ramp. However, if you do receive federal assistance, such as public housing, they would have to pay for the modification. So I'm not sure if any of your viewers live in public housing, or if their managers at public housing. But this is something that they should look into. They should be aware that they need to say, okay, we need to figure out who's gonna pay for this. What about if you have somebody who moves in, who buys a unit and he or she moves in, and they find out that they're allergic to the cleaning solution that's being used for the carpets? Yes. And it results in a respiratory condition and they have trouble breathing and they complain to the board. What's the association supposed to do to address that? And can they just ignore that? They can ignore that. What I would do is, if I was a board member, I would ask that they provide verification that they have a disability and that they... That's considered a disability. I mean, they may be... Chemical sensitivity would be considered a disability and that they need an accommodation due to their disability. And so if they provide that information, then it's up to the board members to what we call engage in the interactive process. Try to resolve the issue with the tenant or the resident or the homeowner so that they are accommodated and can live in their housing and enjoy their housing. But what if you get some board members and say, you know, that product we buy, we've been using it for years and nobody's complained. That person's a troublemaker. We're just going to ignore her. That would be considered a denial and then we would, you know, proceed with probably, most likely with a reasonable cause determination if that was the reason why they denied the accommodation and didn't engage in the interactive process with the person. And it could result in big fines. Yes, it could potentially end up with big fines for the board members. So in other words, when something like this happens, they should really contact their lawyer. No, they don't have to contact their lawyer. That's the important part about training is that if they're trained to know when someone is making a request or potentially making a request, then it should go directly to the board and then the board should make that decision. The rules and the how to handle a request shouldn't be necessarily handed off to an attorney. And that's another issue is that, you know, sometimes the attorney will charge fees to the tenant or to the homeowner because they were requesting an accommodation. So if they are trained, their staff, they don't necessarily have to go to a lawyer. Of course, if they have a question, they can address it with their get legal advice, but the staff should be able to handle all accommodation requests, modification requests at the facility or at the property. And so the important thing really is to listen when people complain and to basically try to respond to them. Yes. And it's not improper to say, well, geez, if you have an allergy, can you get me a doctor's? That's what you're asking for, right? Yeah, you can, under our law, you can ask for verification that the person has a disability if their disability is not apparent. So for example, in your situation when you explained a person in a wheelchair, there are disabilities apparent. So they're not required to give you a doctor's note to say that they need the doors to be widened. But in a situation where someone has a chemical sensitivity and their disability is not apparent, then a board member or the association can require verification from a doctor to show that they have a disability and that they have a nexus or a need for the accommodation or modification. Okay, so once you get the verification, once the board gets the verification, what steps do they have to do to show that they are addressing the request? Well, they can temporarily approve the accommodation and modification and that's what we usually recommend that they do temporarily approve it if they have maybe something that they're trying to work out. But if they get the verification that they need the accommodation and modification, they should approve the request. Okay, and the approving the request would mean that the association would then have to find some other fluid, cleaning fluid, to use that that is not going to set off a negative reaction with the resident. Yes. What happens if you have a board member says, you know, now we have to go out and get this special cleaning fluid and it's costing us more money. You know, I want you to watch her and if she does something wrong, we're gonna find her, we're gonna ding her. Yes, and you bring up very important. So, I mean, what's wrong with that conduct, with that reaction? Yeah, you bring up something that's very important that we see a lot at the Hawaii Civil Rights Commission is that when someone makes a complaint and then they're retaliated against, that's another violation. So, because they engage in a protected activity by filing a complaint or they engage in a protected activity by just merely asking for an accommodation and someone retaliates by, like you said, you know, in your comment that they are upset because they asked for different chemicals, that would be retaliatory and that could be an actual violation of the law. And so, board members really have to be careful. Yes. And because there are other board members who are present when they make these comments and who knows what's gonna happen if there's a lawsuit and you know, people will have to say, well, what did you say in the board meeting? Why are you taking action against this one resident? She seems to be getting fines for things that are unrelated to her disability but it seems like you're going after her, like you're mad at her because she's a troublemaker. Yes, I would be careful when someone files an action or when they make a request that they treat them fairly, like any other tenant or resident and that they don't threaten them, intimidate them, create any adverse effects because they filed a complaint. Okay, well, we're getting towards the end of the show and but, you know, we have some other issues that, you know, we need to discuss so you're gonna have to come back. All right. And meet with us because we didn't even get to surface animals. No, we didn't. That's the key topic. That's one of the key topics. And so, you have to promise to come back and discuss surface animals with us next time.