 Think tech Hawaii civil engagement lives here. The word of the day is Russell Liu a Hawaii attorney practicing and teaching in Beijing He joins us by zoom from Beijing and he looks great. Let's take a flash and there's Russell Russell, how are you in your favorite coffee shop in Beijing? I'm great. Jay. Nihao. It's 10 a.m. Now we're live in Beijing and we're in the Heidi and district in Beijing, China You look terrific. Anyway, so I wanted to want to talk with you about this very provocative title You made for the show today. This is of course think tech Asia. We do this with you every week or two and The title of the show is America on the wrong road to making America great again and the tagline my favorite part is one road wrong turn Russell that is so creative and provocative But tell us what do you mean? What are you getting at? What is this about? What's going on here? Well, it's very interesting Jay China has a polish now one road one belt. So this is a converse. This is America's road one road remember one road. There's only one road. You can't move in it and It's going the wrong way. It took the wrong turn. We got we got off on the back roads So so that's what we were going to talk about today, Jay Why do I feel you're referring to none other than Donald Jay Trump and his policy and the policy of this administration? Yes, it's a very interesting times. I'm you know as an American it is my daily duty to open the internet and to read the latest and That's a big talk even among the Americans or the expats here. What is he doing today? What did he do last night? Where's this going to go? We're on this one big road all of us and I think we took a wrong turn Well, you know, I just came back from Australia and I asked people as a regular matter You know what they thought about what was happening in the United States and one guy summed it up pretty well He said I am so sorry for you people I Think that's a sentiment with a lot of people who are not Americans especially I know a lot of Europeans in the European community here and They always have they always come up to me and joke and say are you coming to the party? I said what party and they then tell me what would come to party. It's it's for your president It's it's it's the party, you know, so we can commiserate with you We're in this together. That's the word of the day commiseration So, okay, let's let's let's talk about the relative policies as they are emerging in the when we call it the the The administrations on the one hand of Xi Jinping in China now president for life and like to talk to you about that and and the and the administration here at Donald Trump over the past year and change and and how they differ and How they relate to each other and why you say One road wrong turn referring to the road in the United States Well, yeah, I take this approach because it's interesting how the policy of the u.s. Is headed by one man And how everybody on that road, I think are missing what's happening, you know, I think the that The big the big the big theme here. We talked the last week the last show about it the tariff on the sea of steel industry but we're taking this path where the president is making good in his promise of Going back and Making America great again, but his strategy is well, we're going to rebuild these industries That have died out Such as steel industry. So we put a 25 percent tariff on imported steel And so we're building an industry that has changed because of computerization so forth and we're talking about industry with very few workers Uh, and so we're taking this approach that we're going to go back into and and rebuild these industries and the question is How does this back up against where the world is going where we have technology Where it's a new economy And you have to be on that road. So that's a different road the road that Looks and is the future using high technology. We're there We're continuing the road and I see it in china because in china I don't I carry a very few little cash as you know, I carry my Smartphone I use my way chat. I buy my cup of coffee, which I have here Using my smartphone using way chat. I go to the grocery store. I buy groceries using way chat And it's a great way. It's it's it's the future. It's a technology, you know, we hear but when I go back to the us We're still hung up in an old world And we're going back even further to the old economy a labor economy When the when everybody around us around the world, it's it's not long. It's no longer labor economy It's a knowledge technology innovation economy Yeah, and what I what did I see recently? You know, one would believe that the united states was a Manufacturing country. It's not It provides services most workers in this country provide services not manufactured goods That has been taken over by other places in the world not only china In fact, china is giving manufacturing up to some extent itself It's farming out delegating out manufacturing to other countries in asia So what I find interesting is that we're still living in this kind of dream of returning to you know America as a manufacturing country it's it's not and it's not going to be either That's the remarkable thing. So here you have the united states folding in on itself becoming isolationist Isolation is never a good policy And you have china opening up and actually, you know as far as shijing ping is concerned This is a good break for him to find donald trump, you know going isolationist and leaving the world To him to shijing ping to open up and exploit now exploit is the wrong word But to find opportunities and he is finding opportunities and china is finding opportunities. So Even if you assume it's a zero sum game, which I don't think it really is You find china is is developing in the vacuum that donald trump has left And the question I put to you and I put it to other other guests in our show on the same general topic is So if you have an administration like this In the united states Folding up on you know on on world influence And and abusing and criticizing and sending negative tweets to our allies our allied countries Who have been our allies for years and hundreds of years sometimes? That's damaging our international reputation Tarnishing our brand so to speak the piece about that this morning in the newspaper Um And otherwise, you know damaging our opportunities damaging our prospects in the world in the global world How quickly can you repair that damage if at all? Um, you know, so shijing ping is making inroads Um, you know, it's there's a momentum. Don't you think there's a momentum involved? He's not going to stop He's going to you know, the more opportunity he sees the more he will seize And and the the more opportunity we lose Um, the more likely we won't be able to get it back because shijing ping and others will have seized it So my my view and I like your view is that this damage to our brand and our global reputation Um, it may not be permanent, but it is long term and it is not easily easily You know, we reversible Mm-hmm But jay, I think you raised some really good points here I think it's a long term damage and I think it goes beyond maybe just the president It goes beyond because if you look what happens In the us and our congress, they're fighting all the time in partisan politics But they don't give leadership. They don't lead the country They don't come out with policies to help people to earn an extra dollar due to live a better life Um, I see it very different in in china for the last 15 years You know in china about 40 35 40 years ago They had a new policy with they started having their children as a core requirement They must learn english every year So they learned a second language They knew back even back then for a long term that they had to build capacity The real life set the business world outside of china even through that time when it was closed its borders So okay, they knew that they had to integrate The knowledge comes outside. They had to get that knowledge So when the internet opened up they could read english and fast forward When they started to do business abroad unlike the japanese who are very limited and speak mostly japanese The chinese can speak english they can read and write english and as you know, I teach law school here Everything is seamless. I speak in english The kids read cases that are in the us law Facebook's They're up the curve and again what scares me for most americans and and my fellow americans is that You're not doing anything about it. The leadership in the country is not helping To transition to what is the real world and that's the knowledge economy innovation So we're going on this One road right now and that road is going back. We've gone off the road We're on a road that is broken. It's paved But that road will not bring us anywhere that road will lead us down nowhere and Again, so I think there's a big divergence. We've taken two different roads. China's gone one way the us has gone another road Well, I think we've been doing this for some time and you know, it didn't begin with trump You know, I remember they used to joke about the Members of congress how only a small fraction of them had passports They didn't travel, you know travel is not only broadening. It's necessary You can't appreciate the world unless you get around a little and talk to people from other cultures and so forth So it's really going on for a while now that the us has been shutting itself in now. It's accelerated, of course And this and this does damage to our own, you know, we're shooting ourselves in the foot In this way, but what I find most interesting and we really need to talk about it is the the immigration of chinese Over the past what couple of decades anyway I mean I that's quite remarkable how many chinese are in this country And doing well I remember going back to my old neighborhood, which is in queens new york And there was a chinese restaurant there that was as big as anything i've seen Even when i'm with you in in china it was huge And then a chinese supermarket, you know everything chinese old chinese foods Huge as big as anything i ever saw in china So what you have is, you know a substantial immigration Of chinese nationals to the united states Going to school Taking out, you know permanent residents whatever And doing very well, you know participating in the economy building their cultural The cultural islands if you want all across the country And that's part of this global process of Of diversity and you find it everywhere i found it in australia where i recently visited And you find it in europe although it hasn't really settled down in europe and people are not particularly happy with it But in fact is diversity comes from transportation It comes from softening borders Diversity is ultimately the the destiny of the world no question about it With diversity comes in my view better thinking better relationships better economies all that So what i want to ask you about Is whether this migration from china to the united states is somehow threatened By the trump administration who seems to change his mind, but mostly he's into white supremacy And and whether that Immigration into the united states is threatened Whether it will be reversed or diminished and what the effect of that will be on on the You know the economy and the diversity of the country going forward Well jay i think he reached out some really very important key points here It's sort of like a national will What trump has done is he's he's brought up these people For many years who kept quiet silent who've come out In charlotteville who've come out and Expressing viewpoints that maybe is a greater problem in america And so trump what he's what he's doing now. I think He's he's turning back the clock. We're going to be a society that does not Want immigration. We don't want borders to come to the us And and the question is who is a u.s. Citizen? I think the country is built upon diversity people from different nationalities from different ethnic groups Who've contributed to a society that's supposed to be equal And in along the way is if we take a look at back of the years The chinese came to the u.s. Late 1800s and built a railroad And in hoi to to build a sugar plantation And then at during that time we were there are anti chinese policies 1898 the anti immigration policies get some chinese uh and and The chinese exclusion act lest we forget Yes, we can't forget that and then fast forward Uh, we had uh In the in the 50s 60s Influx of taiwanese who came to america students a lot stayed a lot in some return But they helped bring a lot of engineering skills a lot of technical skills Uh, and today it's the chinese Uh, it's no secret that for example one of the big industries is artificial intelligence And you're talking about eight eight percent of the workers are from china These are students who who stuck along in the u.s. Who are contributing to an american economy There's a lot of great things happening because these kids come to the u.s. Study Their masters or phd's and fine jobs settle in the american dream But we're seeing a change now with this policy now Where the u.s. Is is flip-flopping. They're making it Anti chinese to some extent they're they're targeting chinese there was a 10-year visa now Trump is considering to eliminate that uh, also, uh, you know the eb 5 that you know the quotas for chinese that's used up So you won't get that kind of money not for a while But again, uh, the contributions are are tremendous in the science field In the high tech deal. Well, I think is if a chinese immigrant comes to united states Goes to school excels in school on his own merits his own effort for sure Then he gets into business and makes a good living in business Who would who would begrudge him that I don't understand it at all And he stays here as you said he participates in the united states economy All of that is really good for us And he's not you know, he may be competing with other people as to how well you do in school But so do we all that's the way of the world Uh, I think there were some people believe that because he's in school doing well It takes something out of their rice bowl, but that's not really true at all. It's not a zero sum game so Yeah, go ahead I think we've got to really be cognizant of what's happening on a global scale the big huge tech companies E-commerce alibaba Ted said by do all these companies For example are listed in the u.s. Okay They bring money to the economy. Okay And they're attracting talent and now there's a reversal because many chinese in the u.s We're working in these industries are telling you That because of trump policies because of where things are going We don't feel at home We don't feel at home. So um, there's a major push For them, uh, there's recruiters that actually go out and recruit these These these skilled technology people The pay is getting better in china the opportunities are getting better And uh, again, so they're going to come back and really cement and accelerate china's policy of Moving towards the number one leader in artificial intelligence and technology We're going to be behind the game because of this anti immigration. There's a kind of feeling you're not welcome here Well, we not two hours ago russell. We had a show uh with uh, pete mcginnis mark of the school of ocean earth science and technology the hawaiian studio geophysics and planetology Who's in houston right now? um at the lunar and planetary science conference And one of the things that was remarkable about that about that conference is that the preliminary part of it was called china in space And china has entered into The science of space and exploring space to the point of sending, um, you know missions to mars To the moon already done and mars to come And uh, what's what's interesting about it is that china is joining The international science community at a very rapid rate And participating shoulder to shoulder with uh, the science, you know, the scientists in that area around the world And at this conference in houston So what you have is, uh An equality if you will in science What you have is a um a very, uh, express Ambition by china to be in science to be among the world leaders Why would we the united states send chinese scientists away? Why would we discriminate against them? That that puts us at a disadvantage Because where will they go and then i want to ask you about this Where will they go many of them would go back to china Because china is offering them incentives shijin ping is no slouch He's trying to get him to come back home with their american education Um, why would we do that? Why would he want that? Excuse me. Why would we want that to happen? But jay you we raised some really very interesting observations Uh, and i've been in china for 15 years 15 10 years ago I would see the president of all the major universities in the u.s And the governor for example wisconsin, minnesota Uh all these companies are these, uh states why because these universities Would attract a lot of chinese students. They had actually a large chinese alumni In china who went and attended schools. They were in the technical programs And you know one of the things that i think people forget to realize is that these people bring a lot of the Court competencies that america has lost out on if you go to google you go to silicon valley A lot of workers are foreign workers. They're not americans because you can't find them in the american In the america system the education system in the u.s relies on it It's a 12 billion dollar year industry of the the universities attracting these students from foreign country Well russell, um, I think we're going to take a short break while we reconnect with russell. You he's in beijing He's an american lawyer practicing and teaching in beijing. We take a short break to reconnect and we'll be right back I'm going to the game and it's going to be great early arriving for a little tailgate I usually drink but won't be drinking today because i'm the designated driver and that's okay It's nice to be the guy that keeps his friends in line keeps them from drinking too much so we can have a great time A little responsibility can go a long way because it's all about having fun on game day Welcome to sister power i'm your host sharon thomas yarbrough Where we motivate educate and power and inspire all women We are live here every other thursday at 4 p.m. And we welcome you to join us here at sister power loha and thank you Okay, we're back. We're live. We're in contact again with russell you american lawyer hawaii lawyer practicing and teaching in beijing joining us by zoom And russell, you know want to continue the conversation about the incentives that chi jing ping and the chinese government are offering people for example If you wanted to be you russell american citizen If you wanted to become a chinese permanent resident or chinese citizen, uh, would you have the possibility the right to do that? Yes, a new policy effective february 1 uh the china government has a new policy to uh attract uh Ethnic chinese overseas chinese as they would call it back to china many have skills talents To bring entrepreneurial skills as well as bring in knowledge back to china So the new program started february 1 and it applies to quadrant or of former chinese citizens Or and it also applies to born born chinese like me If i can prove that i have an ancestor that was a chinese citizen Which means i presumably think i would go to the state of hawaii Vital statistics office I would get the um that certificate of my grandfather And i would also i have his records from the u.s. Government as to his uh entry into the country and it shows where he came from I believe that that and i and my birth certificate showing Instead of what birth certificate says my ethnicity chinese So i think i would take that back and i could get a maybe a five-year residency permit Okay, would you have to give up your american citizenship if you took a five-year residency? No, you won't give up your american citizenship Well, that's pretty interesting. So, you know people doing this You have any information about americans chinese americans in in the united states who are taking advantage of this kind of program Going back to china and trying their luck there I mean and and if so are they what are they doing when they get there? What is the government offering them in a way of economic incentives? You know if they take permanent residents? Well, I think that's great for a american company That needs to get residents in china That maybe needs somebody to be the bridge uh, and To to be in china because the hardest part is getting the permanent residency Um, I think that's a great bridge uh second of all. I think it's it's great for Somebody who does a global business For example, if I am a Example if i'm a mediator arbitrator I arbitrate disputes between chinese and us companies. I need to be back in the us to do the arbitration Or I need to be out out of the country But I can still be based in china and I can still do my work there So I think it opens up opportunities But I think this is really this this new policy visa is really to bring back what they call the chinese highway These are called the sea turtles sea turtles because these are the chinese citizens that went across the ocean and the turtle laid eggs in another place and that and it has Brought it into america where they're in Silicon valley. They're living the american dream But you know what when they pick up the paper they read about these things with china the u.s. The trade war Uh, then they look around themselves saying oh the chinese food here in uh, al alt is Who culture or not tasty? Let me think about China, you know and the chinese policy really is saying you have black hair. You have black eyes You may have a race in america But you always will be chinese You also will be chinese so we welcome you back So that has been the approach of the government But I think with it comes the economic incentive because they are also doing something to you All the big companies like why do alibaba tencent that are listed overseas? Uh, for example, you know how successful, uh, alibaba was the largest ipo in us history And last year it went up 495 billion dollars Stock shot up The investors are great. They're happy. You said money goes there. You said I thought you said billion Billion billion. I thought that's what I thought you said Billion billion dollars several several hundred billion dollars now imagine if you had that money raised in china And you had a listing if alibaba could list in china a secondary list Imagine how much money that would generate the capital money markets to stay in china. Okay So And that money doesn't have to go overseas. It would be china So what they're doing is they're setting up a new policy or new law They're looking to where they're going to allow these companies to do a secondary list in china And with with the easing of restrictions. They're also trying to bring back these companies Because that will advance and feel They're they're they're their whole goal Of this going on this road to technology Whereas the u.s. We're going to put it in the steel ministry We're going to slap tariffs on everybody in the u.s. And we're going to keep it american only the chinese are saying Well, no, we're going to go in this technology road. We took this turn. You guys could go in that turn We're in this turn and we're going to have lots of money to fuel this economy Well, you know, you know what I get out of this. I mean the united states policy is essentially rejecting brainpower it's rejecting smart and you know studious citizens and Not not valuing them not keeping not taking steps to keep them here I remember I told you before about a story in the new york times about an an indian doctor from india Who went to medical school in this country? And he was doing, you know medical practice in a hospital that serviced to disadvantage somewhere in the south And there was an attack on another indian not too far away From his hometown there And the other indian was was killed I think And he and his wife who had lived in the united states for many decades So we can't tolerate this. This is this is racial hatred The worst sort of bigotry. We're we're leaving We're not only leaving our town in the hospital. We're not only leaving our careers in the united states We're leaving the united states and they left And I think that that's a sad story because think of the brainpower We we lost that one individual one family stable responsible productive achievers in the united states economy And now, you know You multiply that times how many thousands or hundreds with thousands or millions and you get you get a result and the result is that We are losing brain power Brain drain call it, you know, that's what we're talking about the international brain drain and we created ourselves We are creating right now on a racial if not racist basis And china is getting the benefit and other places too getting the benefit of that So what you have is the the flow of the intellectual pursuit from one country to another Which one do you think makes out in that trade? Which one do you think makes it, you know, it's better suited for the future? Which one will have the better economy in 10 years? And that's the that's the ridiculous wrong turn here that in 10 years or 20 We will not have that talent and we will not be as well suited to run a country in an economy and do the right thing And we will be second class, you know, I mean, I don't know what other conclusion you can come to rustle Yes, we're doing business with china right now Walmart, you know Bison sells some 90 percent of its stuff in and from and with China but over time You know, that's not going to be the case. We're going to be second class in that trade in that economy And I hope you'll still talk to me after you become a chinese citizen I hope you'll still say hi and get on our think tech show Jay I guess if I go back to the u.s I can now apply to be a job in a factory wouldn't that be great? Give up your law practice become a factory worker We can we can make shoes and umbrellas for the world. Maybe that's what we want to do And I and I and I say that because you know, I think the whole perception in the u.s Is this the world has changed around you You know and china is is is like this. I have a saying that goes like this With a herd of 1.3 billion People moving you feel the wind No matter what you feel the wind You always will feel the wind and so If they're moving in one direction, they've got to be doing something right and pay attention to it Yeah, and um And and so, you know, I say that because even getting back to locally in hawaii I think even hawaii Donald trump is good for why because he is allowing hawaii to choose its destiny We know that you can't depend on the old game federal funding pork barrel legislation Use your destiny. Do we choose to be a labor economy or do we choose to be a knowledge economy? Okay, if we choose to be a knowledge economy where all the action and the money is How do we get there? Well, we need to build capacity. We need knowledge. We need education Bringing all these chinese students that didn't go to mit. There's tons of smart technical people Get them into u.h Our kids in u.h will learn to be multicultural global and they will go up the curve faster I'm convinced a lot of these chinese students are much more of the curve when you talk about math science Bring that then you can attract federal money for applied research Then these chinese students will give the brain power to attract global Foreign direct investment. I think I think you've got it rustle I think that you know aside from shijing ping benefiting by this isolation policy Somehow hawaii is also benefiting by it because we understand diversity and we understand, you know Diversity hopefully in in economics. I like to believe more of that in the in the future So anyway, I mean, it's a very interesting Track is a very interesting thread to watch It's one one road wrong turn We'll have to we'll have to watch it on both sides We'll have to watch it on shijing ping side and on donald trump side. We'll have to keep on talking Thank you so much rustle for this enlightening conversation. We'll see you in a couple of weeks Thank you jay, and we'll see you in a couple of weeks xie xie side jen Bye jen. Hello