 Think Tech Hawaii. Civil engagement lives here. I'm Marcia Joyner, and we are navigating the journey. Navigating the journey is dedicated to exploring the options and choices for the end of life care, and to assist people to talk about their wishes. It's time to transform our culture, so we shift from not talking about dying, but to talking about it. It's time to share the way we want to live our lives. And today, we are talking to, of course, my dear friend, and everybody that knows, I only talk to dear friends. I know we're talking to my dear friend. And now, Amaral, who is president of the Association of Civic Clubs, and Anel is all about choices. Anel has pushed the bar about choices right from the beginning when I first met her until today. So tell us about Anel. How in the world did you ever go from girls' schools, Catholic schools, to the police department? How did that work? There you go. How does a nice, sweet Catholic girl going to an all-girls' school end up as a police officer? I will tell you, it was not my dying ambition to be a police officer. I can imagine. And in fact, I mean, I'm a product of the 60s. I didn't have a very high opinion of police officers in those days. However, the police department had to open their doors to women on an equal basis in 1975. Francis Callow was police chief at the time. The EEOC, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, was monitoring that what the Honolulu Police Department was doing. And they said, enough. And if you don't open this to women, we are coming in and suing. Okay. So somebody told me about it opening up to women, and I thought, well, that's interesting. And someone said to me, yeah, but I bet you wouldn't try it. Okay, so the wrong thing to say to Anel is I bet you won't. Yes. Right? So I thought, no, I have to try it. So I put in my name on a lark. My degree is in journalism. That's what my background is. Right? And took the written exam, passed it, took the physical, passed it. For the first time in all time, the police department put up a six-foot wall in an obstacle course to see if you actually would qualify to be in the police department. I got over the six-foot wall and threw the obstacle course. At the time we took that obstacle course test, there were 20 women and 20 men taking the test. Of the 20 women that took the test, two of us passed. Of the 20 men that took the test, all of them passed. So it was geared to keep the women out. Right, uh-huh. Yeah. Then after that, you know, written exams, things like that. I was one of five women that got hired by the police department in 1975. There were about 1,200 plus men, all of whom hated us for coming in. It was tons of fun. I can imagine that. I later went on to, I was in patrol, and then I refused to walk out during the blue flu when the police officers struck against Oahu. And so my brother officers wouldn't cover me off, and I was threatened. They put me into Community Relations Division just to protect me. I began the rape prevention program. I ended up addressing over 30,000 people on rape prevention. I stayed there for a couple of years and decided this is enough. This is not real policing. So I quit and went to work for George Ariyoshi and headed up the Office of Affirmative Action instead. Well, that was—what made you decide to run for office? Because I was before the legislature all the time testifying on issues of civil rights, on issues of justice, and quite frankly, found myself in a vast wasteland of muddle and people not willing to take hard stands. And you know, you just sort of sit there and you watch these things and you say, I can do better. And so again, one of those silly things, I ran for office and because I had a reputation, I succeeded in getting elected and then made a bit of a reputation for myself in the legislature, promoting all the big issues that were important. And that was during the day when you didn't speak publicly against men in power. And of course, I spoke quite publicly, much to the dismay of men and much to the joy of women. Yes. Now let me tell the audience—this is my story. So in the 80s, when somebody in Washington agreed with the people in Germany that they would transship chemical weapons to Johnson Island. And as luck would have it—and this was pure luck— I heard the story on Hawaii Public Radio that this was happening. And the people downline in Australia knew about it. People, other people, but we didn't. People in Hawaii didn't know. So anyway, we fumbled around with the health department and finally got them to have an audience with the public. And we really worked all out to make sure that the public showed up. So in the audience, of course, is our representative. And as you luck would have it, her name, Anel Amaral, A.A. And the only legislator in the room. So she's number one. And here's this big dais full of all of these men with all the braid and then whatever, all the military. And so she walks up to the microphone facing them with her back to us. And the audience says, oh! And this kid sitting next to me says, I don't like that. And I said, I don't either. And my husband tried to crawl onto the table because he knew— he didn't know what I was going to do, but he knew I was going to do something. So I got up and walked right up to Anel with her back turned and slammed the mic, just took it away from her and slammed it down and said, how dare you do this? How dare you have our legislator turn her back to us? How dare you? And they all sat there like, oh! And then we turned her around so that she talked to us. So that's how I met her. And she did. She talked to us and complained about them moving, trans-shipping chemical weapons to us, to a place that nobody in Germany knew. The Americans didn't know where it was. They just knew it was a dot in the middle of the ocean. Yes, yes. Kalama Island. Our island. Our island. Yes. And I had the opportunity also. We passed some legislation about this and I got the support of the legislature and I had the opportunity to go to Germany and address the Bundestag about this horrific thing that was happening in our Pacific with the disposal of their chemical weapons and instead suggested to them that they may want to dispose of them a little closer to their home. Yes. Rather than in our home where we eat this fish, you know? Yeah. So that was the beginning of this wonderful voyage journey with Anel. So after you left the legislature, then where did you go after that? I did a number of things. I mean, I was a professional facilitator. So I ran public meetings for which I was paid for a while too. I was at legal aid and monitored domestic violence issues and lobbied for unpoverty issues. Let's see. Right now where I am is I have been appointed by the governor to sit on the parole board. I'm the only former police officer on the parole board. So I have a different perspective when it comes to parole. And a former police officer thinks first of victims because that's the first person you see at the crime scene. Right. Is the victim. Yeah. And that gives you, I'm amazed that you're the only one on the parole board. It seems to me that they would look for people that were former police officers simply because of the mindset. Well, we have a former public defender. We have a former judge. We have a former federal probation officer and a former corrections officer. So each of us brings a very different background. Public defender is okay. Do they really, they don't really, they just know that they've got X number of poor people. They've got to defend them. Whether they do it right or not does not matter. But they come from the perspective of criminal defense. Yes. So as you can imagine, our discussions and decision-making are very prolonged and loud. I would imagine so. I would imagine so. Now, we have to take a break. Oh, okay. And when we come back, I want to talk to you about abuse of women, abuse of power and where we are today looking at this from a different point of view than was years ago. Good. Okay. All right. We'll be right back. Hi, everyone. I'm Andrea Gabrieli. I'm the host for Young Talent's Making Way here on Think Tech, Hawaii. We talk every Tuesday at 11 a.m. about things that matter to tech, matter to science, to the people of Hawaii with some extraordinary guests, the students of our schools who are participating in science fair. So Young Talent's Making Way every Tuesday at 11 a.m. only on Think Tech, Hawaii. Mahalo. I'm Marcia, and we are back with Anel Amaral, who was a police officer and a protector and defender of women and has a real in-depth look at abuse, not only of women, but abuse of power. Let's start there. What is abuse of power? Now, we all say it, but what do we mean? What is that? Yeah, yeah. You know, when we're talking about power dynamics, we know that there are situations where people have more power and control over you, and because of that domination situation, then there have to be, if you're in the workplace, if you're in school, you know, there are certain situations where we know you should be protected to be able to carry out your work or carry out your duties without people being able to abuse their power and control over you simply because they're your supervisor, your boss, you know, a stronger co-worker than you are or something like that, okay? The other aspect, by the way, to the abuse of power goes to criminality. Right. So there are some very sick people who get off on doing physical harm sexually, in part sometimes because that was something that was done to them when they were children, and so that's the only way that they are able to get any such sexual satisfaction. So when I was in the police department, I would see domination and power and control in the guise of sex assault. The majority of the time, the victims were women. The majority of the time, when I first started, I started in 1975. We didn't have a lot of women advocates in 1975, right? No, we didn't. We didn't have a lot of services for women victims. We didn't talk about their rights, even, in those days. So a rape victim was taken to the morgue, which is where they retrieved the evidence from her, because that was the only doctor available 24 hours a day to police officers. And you had camera equipment there to take pictures of injures, and she's just seen as a piece of evidence. I would imagine, so, going to the morgue, first of all, it's cold and impersonal. It's scary. Scared to death. The scariest place you can go. Fortunately, for those women after 1975, there were women officers. Not many of us. There were only five of us. But when a rape victim was brought in, then the female officer was called out of her car and sent to the morgue to stand by a woman victim. So as you can imagine, I had a great deal of exposure to rape victims and how they were treated. We had some good friends. Adriana Romilli is one. Nancy Creedman is another. Those two women pioneered services for victims of violence. Nancy Creedman in the area of domestic violence and Adriana Romilli in the area of sex assault. And they are still on the job. They are still doing that work. Yes. And we are still good friends. And today, when a woman is raped, then there is someone that comes from the Sex Abuse Treatment Center who understands what she's going through is there for her, is there for the evidence retrieval. She is taken to Sex Abuse Treatment Center, a hospital. A much better place. A much better, senior place, yes. So we talk about abuse, of power. And we see all these powerful men that honestly they didn't need to harass somebody with power. People just sort of surrender to it. So why is it necessary to victimize people that are that work for you? That where you are, they know who you are. They know that you're the power. They don't have to harass them. Why? What's that about? Where they just, and even with the senator annoying, most powerful man in Hawaii, why would he have to do what these women said that he did? What's that about? I think the behavior that we are seeing in the area of sexual harassment is men taking for granted that they can do anything they want to do. I don't think that they intend to hurt. I don't think they intend to insult. It's just I'm in charge and I'm powerful. And my expectation is you will do this for my pleasure. Done. No discussion. We're not discussing this. I'm in charge. So the law is very clear with respect to sexual harassment. You're in a position of authority who are not allowed then to use your power and authority in a sexual manner to push yourself upon your employees. That is unwanted conduct. So all I have to say normally to you my boss is I'm sorry, but that kind of language offends me. Can you please stop talking that way? Yep. And if you're a normal boss you say thank you for sharing and I'm sorry I offended you and you walk away and you never do that again. We are not talking necessarily about normal people. I mean look at what is happening with all of these TV personalities with these people in the House and the Senate and Congress, right? For whom they live in a bubble and they have absolute power. So I'm not listening to you. Yeah. And then they get paid off, the person gets paid off and they think it's gone. To be silent. Yes. Now with the senator we get all kinds of conflicting reports but I'm asking you since you the women talk to you and I don't want to hear what somebody else thinks happened. I want what you what you experienced with the women that said somehow he crossed the line. Okay. First of all the women that came before me came to talk to me came to me because I was in the House of Representatives at the time and I was leading the women's caucus the House legislative women's caucus. Second of all they came to me to talk to me under the promise of anonymity that I would never disclose their names. I was under constant pressure to disclose their names as you can imagine by the leadership in the House and by the leadership in the Executive and certainly by the leadership in Congress. I have never disclosed their names. Third of all when they spoke of the conduct it was very clear to me that the conduct was forced sexual contact penetration, full penetration against their will and they complied out of fear they complied out of force but they complied in order to retain their positions and their jobs. Retribution. Yes and retribution, retaliation Yes. So it is the description of sexual harassment that is defined by EEOC it is the description of sexual assault has defined by the Hawaii Penal Code that is the conduct that was described to me. I recall that back around the same time Anita Hill was testifying against Clarence Thomas as you recall and the women legislators all came forward to speak together and stand in solidarity with Anita Hill via us and when this issue came up about Senator Inouye the women legislators all took a step back and the only person standing in front of the microphone was Anel Amaro and when I went to caucus meetings and would come to the table Democrats and sit down the two members on either side of me would stand up and walk away I was persona non grata for what I was talking about publicly what I love today is this whole Me Too movement that women are strong today and say enough we will speak out I love that. Yes I do too but what I of course I wasn't there but these women backing off were fear out of fear retribution it's not that they didn't want to it was that they were afraid of retaliation power the abuse of power that they would lose their jobs their standing in the community their reputation and if women in the legislature the way I know the legislature works if they supported you the next time they had a bill this man is not going to support her bill because that's the way they work we know that you know that I'll support your bill if you support mine and as you can tell I'm not a very good politician because it didn't matter to me this message is more important you do not get to do this I'm calling you out on it you stop it I'm not anti-male so please understand this I have lots of sons and I'm not anti-male sons, grandsons and son-in-laws lots of those people but they have been men have been in power in control for as many years thousands of years you know this whole thing of women taking a stand must jar everything that they know I'm assuming that this is like, this is crazy that women actually stand up take a stand and talk back yeah and because we love men we point out also that some men love it and actually stand in partnership with those women who are stepping forward some men love this and we love those men people that are going to get hung up about their power and control and that need to put someone who is powerless before them in her place by dominating her and harassing her and shaming her that's already a pretty sick fellow I think I'd like to think however the majority of the men we interact with find this conduct abhorrent and when a woman steps forward are willing to step forward themselves that's my hope that's my belief it was not my experience when I was in the legislature but you know to live and you learn it's still the same in the legislature I hate to say that but yeah it is yeah and what's that about no I don't know I don't understand but I just know it exists well listen my darling this has been a real pleasure spending this time with you and for me and you will come back absolutely because there's so much more we need to talk about Oha for one yes so we really need to talk about the Hawaiians and the Hawaiians there were Hawaiian issues so you will come back and spend time with us I would love to thank you for allowing me this time this is wonderful thank you Marcia Aloha and we'll see you next time bye