 access advisory committee. Today is December 15, 2020, and calling to order. And I don't have a working watch at the moment. You'll have to say what time it is. 11.35 p.m. Thank you. I am not p.m. Sorry. Cool. Okay. All right. Does anyone have any announcements? Before we move on, could we need a roll call? If everyone could announce that you're individually here. So, Tori, can you unmute yourself? So, if everyone could say, oh, give me one second. Elise is sending me an email. Sorry. Bear with me for one second. I'm on Zoom at your meeting, but I'm not connected with you. Okay. Okay. So, I am, Elise is unmute. Elise, is that you? Hello? I'm trying to, it says unmute. Can you hear me? We can hear you now. Okay. Okay. Now I'm connected. I couldn't get connected. I don't know why, but I'm here. Hello. Okay. So, Elise is here. I'm my Ross. Tori, are you here? Tori Dixon is here. Sarah? Ann is here. Ruth? Ruth is not unmuted. Yeah, I'm here. Oh, yeah. Okay. Ruth is here. Right? Okay. And Xander? Yes, here. Xander Crowley is here. Okay. Yes, I am. All right. That'll do, right? For roll call. Does anyone have any announcements? No. No. Okay. So, we have a presentation about application for variance for the UMass Student Union. We received the application, although I have to say it was very hard to read for me. So, do we have applicants here? Yes, they are, they are just beginning to join us. We have David Holmes, Derek Noble, and Carl Nelson. And they're unmuting themselves and putting their cameras on. Okay. So, if you guys could state your name, although I just stated your name, if you could state your names in your affiliation and present your project, the overall project, and then explain the specific variance requests and the reasons of why you're making it. I've got my phone in some cloud and I'm looking. Okay. My name is David Holmes, State Building Inspector here. Can I interrupt you? I'm sorry, is someone making a phone call? I understand. I think Ruth needs to unmute. Okay. Okay. Sorry, David. Please continue. My name is David Holmes. I'm a State Building Inspector and overseeing this project as the authority having jurisdiction. I'm Derek Noble with Shetley Bullfinch Architects and I am the principal in charge for the project. Hi, good morning. My name is Carl Nelson. I am with Code Red Consultants. We're working as the Fire Protection, Life Safety, and Accessibility Code Consultant on the project with Shetley Bullfinch. So, this is not being done with any in-house UMass architecture or any of the UMass architecture? There are plenty of UMass folks involved in the project. It's an Umba project, University of Massachusetts Building Authority project, but Cleve Carons is the project manager for the university. Okay. Do you want to tell us what kind of variants or requests? Well, you could give us a broad description of the project. It seems like the project is almost finished and so we need to know where that is and what the nature of the variants request is. Sure. So, the project is a complete renovation of the student union on the University of Massachusetts campus and the building is about 100,000 square feet. It was a gut rehab. And as part of the design, we did some demolition and raised the ballroom from the ground, the first floor where it was up a level creating a double height space and really trying to activate the building for the student uses. And one of the design features within the building is a open stair. We call it the forum stair where it's a combination of communicating stair from the ground floor to the first floor with large built-in stadium risers for sitting, studying, etc. The nature of the variants is the requirement for two handrails on the stair. So, you can see in the image that's up what's highlighted yellow. The stair here is a communicating stair and it was intended to provide access to the seats to the side as well as access from the ground floor to the first floor. I heard you need somebody to describe better what the image we're looking at is. Yeah, that would be helpful actually. Sure. So, this is a blow-up plan of the stair. I don't know if in the application in this view you have the three-dimensional image because it might be easier to start there. It might be one but we have one visually impaired person and one flying person on this committee. Okay. But we're good at understanding descriptions. When you said a stadium stair, like so the whole stairway is supposed to be sort of not only for just climbing up steps but for sitting on so they're broad steps? Yes. So, there are four risers at the bottom that lead up to a landing. And then from that landing, that's about eight feet deep, there is a seven-foot wide stair that goes up to the first floor. There are, to the side of that, there are three-foot deep steps that are 18 inches high, which create a sitting-studying space that looks down to the ground floor. Okay. And how wide are those? The overall stair is a trapezoid, so it is wider at the bottom than it is at the top but the overall width, including the communicating stair is, oh, I would say 18 feet wide at the top and probably 24 feet wide at the very bottom. So the seven-foot wide staircase is not intended for seating but the right angle or shorter right angle to it is? Correct. Okay. And so now explain what the variance request is? So the variance request is to eliminate the second handrail that is required. It should be right here. It would be because we're using, it was intended that that stair was also access to the seating areas and the requirement for the second handrail along the stair portion eliminates the ability to move from the stair to the seats. Okay. So anybody who needs mobility or location support from a handrail is going to get it how? Well, there is a handrail on the other side of the stair. So we have one, if you're moving from the first floor down to the ground floor, you have a rail on the left side as you go down. What about if you're going up? You would move to the right side of the stair on the way up. You would have the handrail on your right side. Wait a minute. Say this, if you're going down, you have it on the left side and if you're going up, you would have it on your right hand side. It's the same rail. It's the same rail. Yes. So aren't people going to like, don't we have head-on collision possibility? Yes, there is that possibility. For those of us who use canes, we also have weapons that can trip people coming against us. I don't see the practicality of this. However, what if you had a handrail in the middle? Yes, there is a possibility that we could end up with a rail and limit the sub-divide the width of that seven-foot stair with a rail to provide a four-foot wide stair on one side with two rails and a three-foot access path to the seating. I think the four-foot wide stair width may be tight to allow two people to pass each other going up and down, but you could go on the other side also. So the seven-foot stair at this point is completely built and not wide enough. Correct. Where is this in the building? So it's on the first floor. It's at the top of the stair and it goes down to the ground floor. So as you walk in the front doors on the west side of the building and you walk through the lobby, which is coming from like the garage, you walk in. Correct. Oh, the stairs that were to the right. We have a new stair that goes up from the first floor to the second floor. Where were the stairs to the basement? Well, those have been eliminated. There still are three other stairs that go from the first floor down to the ground floor and up to the second floor, and there's also two new elevators. So where is this then located? If you walk in the lobby. And it's right as you walk in the lobby. There used to be a solid wall that kind of defined the lobby space that has all been eliminated. So when you walk in, you see right through the building. So you see from the front door on the west side by the garage, all the way to Meadowampi lawn to the classroom building through the building. Yeah. I'm in a wheelchair, so I forget where staircases are. Now I know what staircase you're talking about. Okay. So where are the elevators? If you're at the top of the stair directly to your left. Right, Derek. I think it would be helpful for them to understand right. There's an elevator immediately to the left within about 55 feet from the stair and then a little bit further to the left. There is an interior exit stairway with handrails on both sides that connects all floor levels. And how do you get to that from the front door? When you walk through the front door and you come into the lobby, they're they're visible right to your diagonally to your left. The altered stairway is. The alternate stairway would be when you get to the, I was thinking the elevator. The alternate stairways are both to the left and the right of the stair. Perhaps 50 feet. Excuse me, Derek, but perhaps it might be helpful to point out that the stair in question is not part of the means of egress from any level. It's simply a communicating stair between the two levels. That's an architectural term that doesn't really mean much to me. Communicating stair. Yeah. What does that exactly mean? Okay. I'm not an architect either. That's okay. But generally it means when it's not part of the means of egress, it isn't your designated pathway to get out of the building. It's not part of your emergency way out of the building. It's an extra stairway, if you will. Okay. So it's meant to facilitate access to those bleachers. And as a quick way to run to the second floor, when you come in the door, the first floor, when you come in the door. Yes, that's correct. Yeah. We were hoping, given the proximity of the elevator and interior exit stairway to sort of that communicating stair in the adjacent, call it the forum or social stair, we're hoping that those features would provide an adequate accessible route slash means of egress in the event of a user of the social stair needs to access all levels, including obviously that exit stairway with two compliant handrails on either side. For those who can use stairs. Correct. So we have the stair within 100 feet, about 95 feet of the adjacent social stair as well as the elevator for those who couldn't utilize stairs immediately adjacent to the social swap slash forms there. Anybody have any comments? I have a question. I am mobility impaired user wheelchair. So there's an elevator which I can use and or somebody with no mobility impairment whatsoever. There is another stairways that could take them wherever they need to do. And this is the third option, but you're proposing it to have only one handrails on one side of the stairs because you don't want to make it any narrower. Am I is my understanding accurate? Yes. Yeah. And the only other point I just wanted to make is I think Derek discussed it sort of at the onset of the presentation, but currently 521 CMR, the architectural access board regulations section 27 effectively requires all stairs to have continuous handrails on both sides. There aren't really any provisions which addressed step dials or omissions for handrails similar to like a bleacher or other assembly type areas such as tiered lecture halls or movie theaters or other types of social stairs. I know in the proposed amendments to the architectural access board and rules and regulations, they are proposing to add language similar to the building code as well as the 2010 edition of the ADA accessibility guidelines, which otherwise have an exception for aisle stairs needing to provide handrails on both sides, where serving assembly type spaces. So currently there's a gap in alignment between the state accessibility code as it currently written and the ADA standards as well as the building code. Is this one more strict? Yeah, well right now it effectively just requires handrails on both sides of all stairways. There's no provisions that address step dials or other types of spaces where serving tiered seating or tiered assembly type spaces. Anybody else have a comment? As the authority having jurisdiction for both of those regulations, this is one of those items that comes up occasionally that when you apply both regulations, you come up with the one that's most restrictive and again clearly architectural access board regulation was more restrictive. And in my opinion, it appears it hasn't caught up to the revisions that have been going on for years to the international building code with its own accessibility provisions that we basically in Massachusetts, we hand those off or ignore them and apply the 521CMR requirements. So it's just there isn't a good blending as was pointed out by Mr. Nelson and this leaves us with this conundrum of we need relief from this requirement if we're going to utilize the provisions that we find in the other regulations. Yeah. And the last thing, thank you, David for clarifying that the last thing I did want to bring to the board's attention is this case was an incoming case that was heard at the architectural access board meeting yesterday, December 14th. And consistent with what David said, this issue does come up from time to time. I know the board has routinely heard similar cases in Boston and Cambridge as well as a number of other universities and colleges throughout the Commonwealth. When they reviewed the incoming case, I'm not sure if any of you were called into that hearing, but they did approve the single railing on the basis of the adjacencies of the nearby elevator in interior exit stairway. The approval was based on three conditions. Number one, the large landing at the bottom of the seating that Derek described, which I think is eight feet in depth, cannot be used for any sort of programming or it needs to be merely used as a landing and is not intended for presentations or other type of programmatic purposes and can only be used for travel, which I believe is the design intent. However, that'll need to be abided by the university. Number two is the wheelchair spaces are provided at the top of the seating. There's some adjacent bench seating where they specified we need to make sure that there's shoulder alignment between the top bench and the adjacent wheelchair spaces, which is consistent with 2010 ADA language. And then lastly, they requested wayfinding signage at both level one and level two to make it clear for users that can't utilize the social stair with the single handrail to direct them to the nearest accessible route, which is the elevator. So people are clearly understanding what that path of travel is or communicating for the between those two four levels where they may have disabilities or other impairments. Any comments from the committee? Then I have some. I am going to vote no. And I urge the committee to vote no, because whereas there isn't a programmatic problem in that there won't be classes scheduled there, that is social space. And it is it needs to be accessible. What you did was design wise you made a trapezoid, which for people with visual impairments is very difficult because square corners are how we set ourselves up to get around. So you already made it difficult by making a trapezoid and by not putting any handrails for orientation, you have not made it possible for or at least easy for blind people to be safe using it. That could be blind staff and that could be blind students. And the signage that you proposed doesn't do a thing for blind people. So I really wish you had thought about this a priori and made the staircase wide enough so that you could so that people could actually use it safely. I mean, I totally can see the head on collision that I could be involved in and it wouldn't only be a problem for me because I use a white cane and I could turn people. So I think, you know, the reason for handrails is also part of demarcating space so that you know which which way people are supposed to go on a particular part of the steps. And I really this I really feel like should have been thought about. And I'm going to vote no. We don't have any power. I'm sure the AAB will approve it. But it's but it's not it's not really accessible the way it should be. May I ask, is there a a tactile is there something on the ground at the bottom and the top step for someone that has a visual impairment that could There is there is a change of material. So the the top step does have a blanking on the terminology. The change of materials at the the nosing and that is black and the stairs are white. So there is a contrast in the colors and at the bottom there are wood stairs which at the ground floor there's a wood floor also still doesn't help with the hand nope and anybody who uses crutches not just me but you're going to say yeah sure go use the elevator but people don't you know I mean it's I just feel like it's an incomplete thought process and I wish somebody had asked a whole lot a long time ago. Anyway is the committee ready to vote on it? I mean does anybody else want to say anything about it? Elise here I just I have to say Myra you made you well said I mean I couldn't have said it better you made some really good points and I full on agree with you. This is Seren although I lost my visual contact with you but I can't hear anything everything. I think there are other alternatives maybe they should look into some ways of leading people with visual impairments to the other access to different floors using the elevators and the the others there were too railing and so I do not and since the project is already done and completed so I kind of will am leaning toward granting their request for variance. So they we I'm a little different than you and Elise. And this is Tori you say you're going to have signage so it's clear where people need to go to get that to the elevator the alternative routes you could put Braille on that to make it I mean for people who read Braille not everyone does but could that happen so that I think a lot of our signage has Braille I'll have I would have to double check to see if the directory signage in these locations have Braille directing people to the major program elements in the building. Okay thank you Ruth muted sorry I was muted I mean I think I agree with Seren on some things I also I mean I agree with Myra that this should have been rethought but if we're already this I mean we're already so far into the project I mean I walked by it two days ago not a week ago and furniture was already being brought in and things were already so I'm sort of it's already been built it's not and maybe you can try to do things and change things but it seems like it's already sort of too far down the road to really actually change anything I agree that there needs to be some more clear cut direction for those who are visually impaired or you know who can physically use the stairs but need help navigating them or whatever for whatever the case may be I mean I'm not surprised that UMass has gotten this far into something and then realized that they may need to change it but but also that's not on you guys necessarily that's the university at large any other comments then we'll bring it to a roll call vote I mean we have no power over this this is advisory so the question is whether or not this committee will recommend that the variance be granted is that correct did I put that correct yes and also yeah so you can make a motion of whether you are providing a positive or negative recommendation for the approval of this variance request also you you as a committee can make recommendations of of what could be added to this project to improve it regarding ADA matter so if I'm hearing correctly some of the members have indicated that could there be if it's not already part of the plan could UMass put Braille on these on the way of finding signs am I hearing that correctly so in part of your motion if that is something that the committee as a whole wants to recommend that UMass provide that accommodation I think that that would be very useful to include in your motion okay would anyone like to make a motion so I'm going to make a motion that we vote I'll second Tori's motion and what would the motion be Tori what what what are you doing I mean that we vote on I mean I can't speak for you um but that we vote whatever way we feel about the project and let them move so Tori do you want to make a motion that you want to provide a positive recommendation oh yes okay yes and with with the stipulation that UMass add the Braille to the the signage yeah I second that motion okay so it's um now Myra would ask for is there a discussion yeah is there any discussion I have a question to the architects actually and not well whoever yes okay uh do you know anything about uh auditory beacons I have not had experience with them um they're sort of going out now it has to do with interior wayfinding and I think that there are some things that have to do with interior wayfinding do you understand my concern about this lack of handrail to go in each direction yes I do okay and I think it is actually a serious concern because it's a safety concern it's not only it's not only a convenience concern and a lack of equality or equity and social access concern but it is a safety concern so I guess I would like you to look into I'm not sure how you would do it because I haven't been in the space and I'm not sure how an auditory beacon would help you but there are things that are they're beacons that don't admit any sound to anybody who's not using a phone but you can you can pick up where beacons are in your phone and it tells you which way to go to get to it to get you know like it so it attracts you to the beacon by telling you how far you have to go and what direction you have to go and people use them with their apps for iphones and androids actually there are some people at UMass and engineering who were developing some of these I'm not sure where they are right now but you know they were using them in Whitmore at one point to help people find offices and it was experimental and I'm not sure it was Dr. Gantz and engineering at UMass and I don't know I mean you know nationally I haven't heard about her projects although she did do some of the MBTA stations I think and I'm wondering if beacons or any other kind of auditory things with receptors in a phone would be helpful since I haven't been in a space I don't know but that wouldn't necessarily negate the problem of the head-on collision on the staircase so and they're you know like we're dealing with 18 to 21 year olds they run up the stairs they're not always looking where they're going or who else is there so I do think that this is a big problem anyway I would you know unfortunately as I said you already built it so I don't know what can be done about it and that's why I'm going to vote no but the rest of the committee is not going to vote no so I'll call for a vote hoping that you will look into auditory signals that could be helpful does that make any sense that makes sense okay so um let's do a roll call on Tori's motion to approve um the request um Tori we don't hear you uh-oh sarin yes I go with that okay Tori are you yes okay yes okay um Elise I'm gonna have to vote no I'm sorry guys Ruth she's muted okay yes okay uh Xander yes and me no so it's what five four to two but I hope that when you I hope that the that we actually that that our um statement I don't know who writes up the statement that we voted four to two but with that we have certain concerns I don't know who writes that up do we do that I will provide an email correspondence to mm maab as well as the three gentlemen here today okay so it should say something about the concern on the staircase regarding uh you know safety and also the um possibility of using auditory beacons electronic beacons to make it a little easier although I don't that doesn't solve my problem sure sure no problem okay all right thank you gentlemen for the presentation um and I guess if there is nothing else to say we should move on well thank you for your time and your comments and um I look forward to getting the written meeting notes so I could pass them along and discuss them with the UMass project manager perfect thank you so much thank you thank you thank you very much thank you thank you could I comment further yeah sure this is david holmes the state inspector um I have my right I have the same concerns you do as uh I guess I'm not necessarily elderly category but I'm I'm in an age where body parts are starting to wear out and maneuvering stairs it's not my favorite thing anymore wait um so handrails are my friend and have been for a long time and I'm particularly pay attention to them on all my projects um so this one came up as a gee how come there's nothing here um and then I realized this has come before me before and I haven't apparently I missed it on maybe a couple other projects but it drew my attention a little stronger this time and I have the same concerns you do so back to Derek just to back to what my wrist had offered up originally what about the handrails four feet apart with the balance of three feet on the stairs is that workable or not I'll have to go through the construction details of that um it's it's uh I have there's a there's a cost implication obviously there's a safety implication um and I'd have to discuss it with you mass and see what's um if it's functionally doable with the way things are constructed right now um we may have to take apart the stair in order to redo rework the whole piece right well I'm just bringing it up this it's an obvious concern and also um just to recognize your myra for that that I share share what you're saying and share the same same thought process that you know it's a long way down you don't want to be uh rolling down the stairs it's not a no just want to make a statement this is seren I don't want to be unfair to myra I totally understand what she's going through totally I wish we had known about this beforehand so we could give our suggestions to the project before it was in place but this is after the fact and I hate to create extra costs to the state university doing something where I looked as there are alternative more secure sites and being a person with disability for 40 some years I learned to experience that I cannot really take the if I don't feel safe about doing something I don't take that route and I'll try to see if there's another alternative route you know so I don't want to put myself in a situation that I don't understand the issues myra is bringing when is the building supposed to theoretically be open um public I mean I know you're the state inspector if you're the state inspector then it's on some level kind of up to you it is when the building is open but when is the university the target the target would be February 1st when students come back on campus when the spring semester starts okay and at this point it has a temporary certificate of use and occupancy for four occupants only which are basically I and staff in the building I have a question is there enough with to provide a railing in the center of the aisle so um that's what they were saying that's what I was saying if you had done if you'd come before if it were 90 feet you could put it in the middle it would be no problem whatsoever it would be perfect our our stair up from the first floor to the second floor is that exact situation where it's a nine foot stair with a rail up the middle right and that's perfectly safe um but this one is not and I mean it's true that it would be expensive for you to rebuild it but boy oh boy oh boy I can see people falling down the stairs kids run you know I mean do you think everybody watches where they're going they don't and there's no demarcation of which way you're supposed to go on the stairway now even if there is people don't always go the right way but at least it is a it's a traffic definer to have a stair to have a handrail in the middle or or you know something like that so um I I think that there is potential for UMass to have to pay a lot of money to somebody about this someday I I'm very concerned about I agree with what my religious said I also would like to point out that there are a lot of different things on UMass's campus that are should be and should have long ago been ways that lots of people could have made lots of money based on the inaccessibility and incorrect oh I'm not talking inaccessibility I'm talking accident anyway um you know unless somebody wants to bring it for reconsideration I think we might be done with it is are people comfortable with the way they vote it sounds like people are yeah yes okay all right so um you've heard the conversation did somebody trust the police okay I'm I'm sorry for cutting in I'm just we haven't voted yet right but we did what we did we did yeah we voted four to two in favor you and I okay okay well perhaps this will be a learning lesson uh for all parties um and I I strongly suspect that the DAAC members here won't forget this so um so in the future when when there is a sort of auditorium or whatever the reason may be but here it's because you're trying to facilitate a social staircase but um you know it sounds like the DAAC strongly feels that railings should be provided on both sides um as a matter of ADA or in the middle out of ADA improvements but also for everyone for all users um it's a hazardous situation which may be one other just quick thought I think everyone on the board made some some really good suggestions I thought a lot of the points were valid especially some of the points Myra brought up in terms of potential collisions one thing I would like to bring to the board's attention is I believe currently there are red line proposed changes to the architectural access board rules and regulations I don't believe any public comment period has occurred or there's any sort of movement at the secretary of state's end in terms of promulgating those new changes at least for the immediate future but as I mentioned earlier I believe there are changes being proposed to align the handrail allowances with the building code which would effectively allow handrails on both sides or on either one of the sides or in the middle and if the board has concerns associated with providing a handrail just on a single side instead of the center there could be opportunities here to bring up some of these concerns in a public forum and voice those to the state for consideration before these changes come into effect do you have any idea what timeline you might be talking about I think I mean the red line comments have been in effect um and not necessarily promulgated sort of in draft format for the better part of two two and a half years I haven't received an update from the board just in terms of that updated timeline David you may actually have more knowledge on the state side than I do we've been tracking it closely just to understand implications on the designs associated with projects but there are substantial changes occurring in terms of trying to align that state accessibility code with federal standards especially as it relates to enforcing that code not just on public buildings and structures but also including requirements associated with employee work areas um so Myra I don't have an answer for you but I'm hopeful that the board starts to make some progress on the promulgation um next year thank you very much this is real you know you know that um you know that you know in old buildings everywhere there are lots of staircases with handrails on only one side um but in new construction uh I think the state current regulations have made a lot of sense and they're protective and it's always good to be more restrictive than the feds anyway okay um thank you for that information I really do appreciate it um and uh I'll be looking forward to using the building but I probably won't use that staircase great thank you I'm excited about the building I walked past it a couple times and I even last time I walked past it the doors were open because they were moving furniture in so I sort of looked in farther it's it's gorgeous it's an exciting space now it's updated yes not the old smelly stale building anyway all right well you're welcome to uh we we're going to move on on to other items thank you very much I really appreciate it gentlemen thank you you're welcome to stay on or or feel free to exit the meeting if if thank you very much it was good to hear all your points of view and it opens my eyes thank you for your openness to the comments appreciate it thank you thank you thank you thank you bye bye okay the next thing on the agenda was about the self-evaluation yes the ADA plan um so I keep on saying we're still reviewing it but we very uh staff is still reviewing the the draft ADA self-evaluation transition plan our contract with the consultants is winding down at the end of this month so we have been carefully reviewing everything to make sure everything is is factually is factually true and I hope to provide the committee a presentation on this project in the near future I'm thinking either either at the January meeting or at the February meeting um and uh let me get my notes out there's been some and so with that what and so uh I have been talking to each of the department heads in the town of Amherst which has been really interesting because this is not normally what I do as a planner so it's been interesting to hear what each department you know what they really do and but but here specifically talk about what they do in and in regards of ADA improvements so the plan gets into not only facilities like town buildings parks parking lots trails it also gets into the website it gets into meeting posting meetings agenda it gets into social media it gets into procurement and contracts gets into information that we provide our employees and and volunteers um making sure that all this information is being done and uh is provided to the public and to employees so just being very clear about what are the non-discrimination policies what is our ADA policy um I'm sorry Ruth can I put you on mute because there's a lot of back noise sure okay um and one part of this is I got to speak to so I spoke with uh the town manager and the assistant town manager uh so Paul Blokerman and Dave Zomac about this and uh we um and I was giving them an update about talking with uh department heads and I you know discussed okay so let's talk about implementation and and funding opportunities and um it was discussed well should this be part of the capital budget and they said yes so I spoke to our finance director last Friday and uh and we are discussing um he's an agreement that yes this should be part of the capital budget for making ADA improvements in towns in in this town sorry and that um so we're we're we're we need to uh finalize what that amount would be so per per year can I ask what that means like I could see that meaning two things it could mean that there's a line item for ADA improvements in the capital budget and it could mean that any proposed project has to have ADA improvements as line items in their proposals what exactly um are you meaning so what it would mean is that um every every time that we are working on the capital budget for each year we would line item projects that are identified physical barriers or programmatic barriers that are identified in this transition plan and we would be specifically uh making those projects as part of the capital budget you are awesome morning thank you thank you thank you yeah and I know and then um so I I've been doing all I've been very much advocating for this committee and for ADA improvements so um uh I am trying to ensure that all grants in town that uh the town is applying for that if applicable that there be ADA improvements as part of the grant so um so for instance uh the TAM received a mass DOT project to provide down if you've noticed in downtown there has been downtown dining um there were some ADA improvements as part of that package grant and so um the the town um that's just one example um the town um is coming up with a list of community development block grant proposals for town projects they're due on friday and I asked staff is ADA improvements an eligible activity for this grant and they said yes and so uh we have some ADA uh projects that will be part of this proposal including redoing the northern the north side of Kellogg street sidewalk which is on the side of the post office it will also include um redoing part of the sidewalk that connects from Kellogg street to the bank center and redoing the entrance way and outdoor space to the bank center so there's an outdoor space outside of room 101 and then the threshold in the door there um or have ADA problems so that is one project another project is uh providing ADA improvements to the months in library um and so um we're fleshing out the details I I personally went to the months in library last thursday morning to take a look at at each of uh I did a walk around and I took photographs really in the bathroom is in the basement how are you going to do that so there's stairs to get into the months in library in the first place yeah so not because we can't make this building or outside completely ADA in one grant cycle because um any improvement it it costs a significant amount of money so um um the thought is do we make the if we only can do one door for instance do we make the front door ADA compliant making the front's walkway to the road uh fix that up because there might be some sloping issues and then um well it's a long walkway so you could actually make it into a ramp and uh and then playing around with the so there's two on-street ADA parking spots but there's the uh hedges that are pretty close to the to those parking spots so we are uh thinking about um either removing part of the hedge uh and making them instead of parallel could we make them like a regular sort of pull in um parking spot or the other thought process is there's a loading area how about if we put a bollard so cars can't go down there unless they have to so then you would put a bollard up so say if there needs to be like a an actual loading item that's there's equipment that needs to go in and then you would have a truck and then a bollard would go up um but for any other times that a vehicle isn't loading unloading the bollard grows up and so that becomes a ADA walkway and then providing ADA spaces behind the building which is adjacent to the existing ADA entrance to the building which is the one to the large room there yes and that's okay that's where people vote um and then I believe there's a maybe a meeting space back there um my next my next field trip is to go back and go inside I've never actually been inside the Munson library um and so right now later today I have a meeting with Rob Mora the building commissioner and Jeremiah Laplant who is our town uh town's facility manager so he um he deals uh he's very uh his job is to address all issues with our town buildings or for the buildings that he's assigned to which is the Munson library so the three of us are going to talk in detail about the cost uh about the um the cost difference between both of these uh alternative plans because it's either going to be the front door or we're going to address uh the back door and trying to make that um uh ADA accessible with providing parking in the back um and see so we only have a hundred thousand dollars which sounds like a lot of money it really isn't so um we need to figure out which which would make more sense and um so the the front door we don't know if that's a hundred thousand dollar job or a five hundred thousand dollar job because it's about replacing the doorways it's uh getting uh regrading the the grant the the the threshold which is very uneven and regrading the walkway leading up to it as well so we um so Jeremiah is is looking into that as we speak right now um so so that's that project um and so those are the those are the projects that uh the town will be proposing to the CDBG uh committee um I guess next month for ADA improvements um and again they're due I believe at 12 noon this Friday so I'll be busy working on that but um but it's been really exciting um to uh to uh use this transition plan to our benefit and say oh hot off the press um whenever there's a project and uh or a grant and if it's about a specific building or a park or a trail and I can refer to this plan and say oh well it's been identified in this plan that these are the barriers and they should be incorporated in your project or grant application so it's been exciting to use that as as um as a guiding document great can I insert this is okay um I know Monson Library very well because that's my voting place yep and uh the door they put electric door openers there and I think the electric door opener opens one of the doors I I'm not very my memory might be failing me so if both wings could open and I think they did nice changes to the platform that gets you from the street into the entrance door so that was pretty good I thought because if it is cobblestones it's very bumpy to ride on it with a wheelchair so that was addressed and the door opener was I think it was quite narrow but if two wings could open that might provide easy access but the parking places the hedges I know I experienced that all the time so that could be a um fixed by some landscaping redesigns but then in in that a capital budget line amount for ADA improvements a thought came to my mind I remember a couple of meetings ago Mayra was giving example from the sidewalks by in front of her house and in her in her neighborhood how about somebody in a wheelchair cannot get from one side of the sidewalk to down to the street level and I know it is not only so with Mayra's sidewalk where I live in Amherstwood they have sidewalks but you cannot get onto the sidewalk or down from the sidewalk because they don't have any curb cuts so I my proposal is to the to make a change in the building status that this town grants people when they ask for planning I mean for the plans to be approved that with every sidewalk there has to be access to the street level whether it is requested or not that is a must with the design projects could we put something and then take turns and grant money for each neighborhood to provide that access for all the existing sidewalks like in Mayra Street like in Amherstwood or any other place how many times have I experienced this personally myself I get on a sidewalk and on the other side of the sidewalk there is no place for me to come down in a wheelchair yeah thank you thank you sarin that's really helpful I want to I want to attach something to what sarin just said because I think that what she just said is very important and valuable the Kellogg Street in the downtown area Kellogg the Kellogg Street sidewalks are the worst I've always been the worst that stupid tree that is just in the sidewalk has ruined that sidewalk the one of the the but the other thing that I have noticed in fact on Saturday I fell is the very pretty like brick edging of the sidewalk by in front of the CVS where you're coming up the curb cut is so whole it has is so filled with whole it's very pretty but totally impractical because those bricks wear away so much faster than the cement sidewalks and I it doesn't feel like filling in those holes which should or would cost much more than it would would to fill in a pothole but those are so dangerous that every time I cross the street there which you know isn't in frequent I have to sort of go okay you can do it you can do it you can do it so if they're going to do the Kellogg Street sidewalks if they could maybe spend half a day filling in the holes in this the crosswalk between Kellogg Street and the other side of Pleasant Street yeah that wasn't that in the proposal in the grant that you did ginormous yeah so yeah thank you Xander I will be actually one of the department heads that I I've been stall that I will be talking to is the DPW director and about the transition plan but also to ask what his schedule is to fill in the cracks and missing pieces of of sidewalks and crosswalks in downtown as they are so dangerous yeah they're very hazardous to all to all all users but I will add that so the town applied for a ADA improvement grant through the mass office of disability I think I applied in October I should be knowing by the end of this month it would be crosswalk replacements at the intersection of Kellogg and North Pleasant Street so those if we do receive that grant will those will be redone by the end of this June June 2021 but Maureen these things which is very important for people with disabilities should not be waiting for a grant to be approved or not in my opinion I think it there should be some money set aside automatically for that because we cannot find for more people to fall on those like unfortunate thing that Xander experienced last weekend you know they they are they should be a top priority and if we get the funding so be it then they supplement that with that thank you uh sarin sarin can I get back to thank you for those comments to both of you um sarin can I get back to your comments about the months in center when you talked about the automatic door opener were you talking about the door in the back to get to the basement or were you talking about the door in the front about how you wish there that both doors had a automatic well I mean I don't know what is the front what is the back door I think it's just a large activity room with the wood floor the door goes into back right so it goes it goes through a garden so and you park on a street on that street you go through a garden and there's a walkway and the library is on the left which I have never tried to enter and then there is this big heavy very old beautiful looking door I'm talking about yeah yeah and there's a brick arch that's in front of it and so one of the doors does have a automatic door opener but if I if I heard you correctly you would like to have both doors be able both both wings I mean yes I think there are two wings to the door because every time I go there and I I'm usually with somebody and somebody tries to open the other wing and I have gone there enough time so I said I just fit there but if I wheel myself I will hurt my knuckles because it's not that wide so if they can open the both wings with that electric door yep I think that's what but since the last couple of times I didn't go there and I voted in other places or with absentee voting so my recollection is from like two years ago I have a follow-up question do you use that door to get to the voting location yes you enter that from that door and you make a very quick right and then it's like a people are waiting in a line and then you go through the big room and you register yourself and then you leave that big room from another door which is again very tight but doable doable got it so so if I'm hearing you correctly you go through the front door to vote but the official ADA entrance to that building currently is going behind the building um I don't even know where behind the building because I usually park in the the the church's parking lot okay well this is really useful information are you saying you do go through the front door sarin to get in my rat to tell you the truth I don't know what is the front door what is the back door I only thought there was one door the front door faces out onto east southeast street yeah okay so that's the door I always use okay all right well this is very helpful I haven't been since been probably 15 years since contra dancing in high school but that was the door we used right and you could get in okay okay with that big old antique door right yeah I have a door okay before there was no electric openers there and when they did that and I say wait that's great because I could never open it on my own I but usually when I go there just for voting there are people that are online and they would hold the door open and everybody was concerned you know with my entrance so that solved one problem but for me it is just very tight sure Maureen can I ask a question about the grants situation are there opportunities for community members or members of this committee to help out with writing grants to write their own grants um places that grants could be available uh you know the town staff uh traditionally writes grants uh but you know we love to get your input about any grants and in fact I need to find out what the process for the cdbg grants are so once it goes to a committee there's probably a public hearing and I would love for this committee to provide a letter recommendation um for for these grants um I think that would go um a long way but you know is that for this meeting or is that for the after you get the information for yeah but then at the next meeting we can sort that out but and then also Xander so um I on behalf of the town I have applied for the mass office of disability grant uh ADA improvement for the last two years in a row and both times um while um while writing the grant I have asked for this committee's input so there there are opportunities to provide input because that goes a long way because you you know you are you are the town's representatives of of of the disability community so hearing and understanding that perspective um as users is so it goes a long way much longer a longer way than any architects and I have one other question that's unrelated to this but how do we do we just if there are things that we think of that we think that this committee should talk about should we just email you sure yes because as when we met with the UMass they're not UMass people but the the state inspector the fire inspector made me think of uh when I was at the high school and then when I was in at UMass and still as far as I know this is still Amherst fire department's plan universally if you are in a wheelchair and you are not on a floor and you do not have an easy way out of whatever building you are in and the fire alarms go off and they know that it's not a real they like check the building to make sure it's not a real fire they expect you to stand or to wait in the building until it's over instead of coming and getting you which meant that every time that in the three years I was at the high school they would have a fire drill every semester so it was six fire drills and every single time but one I was on the only floor that I couldn't get off so I would have to sit there through the fire drill with sensory processing disorder and you know usually got a headache after because sitting through a fire drill is a lot I work at UMass now and EH&S knows where I work but if I'm not in my office and I'm on a floor that's not accessible and I have no egress out of the building Amherst fire department unless there's an actual risk of fire will not come and get me and they just leave you there and their thing is well we don't want to risk pulling you out like having somebody get hurt in taking you out if it's only a drill that was their argument when my parents and I tried to argue when I was in high school and I've tried to argue this again and again and again and that's still the argument that I get is well we don't want to put firefighters at risk if it's not if there's not a fire and I as Zander I live through this at my prior employment and my office was upstairs the only access is through two stairs on both sides of the corridors and the elevator in case of fire the elevator it will not work and they said when I questioned that they said on both ends outside there is fire safe area when the doors are closed so you're safe there until they come to your rescue we some sort of solve that problem by getting a portable ramp that is used to provide egress down the stairs safely by only one person it doesn't have to be a very very strong person so maybe you can push where you work to provide to get one of those yeah where I work currently I mean I'm currently working from home but where I work normally on campus is the first floor of office but if I happen to be going to speak to another faculty member who's in a different portion of the the part you know building or or had at a meeting I mean there was a meeting a couple years ago that I was at with the vice chancellor for student affairs and it's on the third floor Whitmore and the electricity went out in the building there was some no storm and we were in the building and the electricity went out and sort of looked at each other and went well hopefully the electricity goes back on otherwise somebody at this meeting is going to have to carry me down the three the two flight or the one flight of stairs to get me to the second floor so that I can get out so I was just a thing that I would like maybe we can have the fire chief it's a good idea to have that talk to us and hear from us and say no this is not this is not a viable plan this is a bad plan please change it I can certainly I can certainly talk to the fire department I would need to ask the town manager if if the fire department department chief is available it's not an emergency issue it's not the minute I think we can solve next month next meeting but it's I was as I as I saw the fire inspector guy I was like oh that issue that issue that I haven't thought about in a long time that's the thing that maybe we should talk about it's a very bad plan such a bad plan I need to excuse myself I need to go to the bathroom so you guys are probably probably going to be done yes we're wrapping up in a few minutes okay all right nice Tori before you go did you um I only provided one set of meeting minutes did you have any issues with that no you have to go that's fine too but if you yeah you're fine I don't believe so no it okay okay great all right bye take care sorry sorry oh happy holidays oh you too to you too thank you yep okay I have to believe it is that time of the year right you know with all the things going out it'll feel like it it'll feel like it tomorrow when it's snow um I uh let's see the next item uh committee or commission I haven't done anything about has anyone else so I have an update it does anyone else I have an update oh wow okay so I um there's a lot of moving parts going on in town uh specifically because of COVID but in general um there's always always 50 things going on at the same time and also updating the ADA plan um has been very time consuming and and it will be because now we're getting to the real meat of it which is implementing and finding funding um so I spoke to my supervisor about uh about the the discussion of becoming a commission and I have been informed that the town will not be exploring this as a as a will not be exploring this due to very limited staffing um I I I staff three boards so you're one of two other boards I staff the zoning board of appeals and the design review board um and then I'm also applying for grants and and project manager to you know plan so for instance this transition plan but that's just one that's just one item um of many and so uh staff does not have time to look into becoming a commission on disabilities um I have been told that if DA if members of this committee want to explore this um on your own time um that would be fine and if you want to look into it and and then provide your findings at meetings that would be fine um does anyone want to take it on maybe in January but not right now yeah well you know uh there was one person who was a I can't even remember but I can brainstorm with Joe Tringale and uh he was working at a state organization in Basta and he actually came to one of our attended one of the meetings and he was very knowledgeable on that let me see if we can get somebody to join us with a Zoom meeting or something if you want to talk to Joe and find out who that person is we can reach out to that person that would be great Charlie was it Charlie no it wasn't okay and then I heard you mean right yeah because it could it was somebody from just another commission Charlie was in the MRC okay and then I just had two other points to bring up about this discussion which is um what are we doing that what are we doing um you know what aren't we doing that a commission can do um and I did speak to a staff liaison in Greenfield who does have a commission and um it seems very similar to what we're doing now and I then spoke again with with Christine Brestrup the planning director and she offered that if this committee wants to have an opportunity to review like larger projects for special permits for example like a mixed use building a commercial building apartment building stuff that would affect the public that she would would definitely entertain that you know this committee could have an opportunity to provide comment but it wouldn't be for single family housing or duplexes or because someone wants to add a shed in the backyard it wouldn't be something that's for a minor project it would be for more uh would be for larger projects that would impact um the general public and I think we would need to have more than one meeting a month to do that so people would have to be willing to do that I think one of the major things Maureen was um in a commission some of the one of the things we discussed was like the parking violations this commission will keep a certain portion of it and then which will be used for some access projects which we would support sure you know I gave us some some power to do that and also we didn't think that our recommendations that we weren't really looked as with any cloud you know being a committee whereas if you're a commission we thought they would take you more seriously your recommendations okay look at that guy and we can ask all those questions friend like we you know you have ideas about what it might do let's talk to that to anybody who's really knowledgeable if you want to get the name of somebody um then we could invite that person we could get you know the truth of the matter so we could find out what it would really do for us and what we would have to do in return that would be different than what we do now can I make a suggestion that we talk about this next meeting because it is one o'clock yeah yeah with that when let me look at my calendar um so we meet on the second Tuesday of each month um so the next meeting yeah thank you um at 11 30 okay and I guess next time we'll we'll approve the meeting minutes and hopefully I'll have the the other minutes ready as well Elise do you have a seeing dog or is yours from somewhere else uh she's from guide dogs for the blind okay because I um I sent Maureen a note about seeing a dog is not really a generic term seeing a dog is a specific company that there's a specific organization that provides dogs there are lots of guide dog companies so they just call them guide dogs oh oh that's good to know thank you yeah um okay and we will very possibly have another member at the next meeting um we interviewed two people who were both really good um and Chris never did he end up he uh suddenly he realized that um for a variety of reasons he just didn't have enough time he just didn't realize okay so our next meeting is to decide January 12th we may well have another meet a member at the January 12th meeting right yes Paul said it might be appointed appointment on the 21st yeah um yeah so it would depend on I have to step off because I have to go to another meeting I'll see you guys thank you uh Jerry um so what was I going to say I think it would depend on when the when Marty Smith uh gets sworn in by the town clerk so that would be at her community it would be very helpful for writing to the architectural access board about maintaining the state regulations instead of going to the less restrictive ADA I thought that she would be really helpful for that I don't know if she agrees with it but the state building inspector sure seemed to correct you know we hand that back to the agenda for the next time um no yeah let's put that on that was a very nice suggestion very very uh I gotta say I thought in particular that those three were very helpful and um had provided we should have never gotten to this point in the first place and that's really the tragedy of it all and the inspector sort of took responsibility for that but that's still you know it is a dangerous uh proposal that they have yeah it's it's a dangerous proposal anyway um okay so I have to go yeah can we have a motion to adjourn all right I move for you adjourn we have a second okay well in favor of adjournment Elise yeah sarin yeah Ruth I guess she's moved it yeah she might be muted and oh yes um I don't I don't know where Ruth is is she still on there she is okay she's just muted all right well we'll just assume she voted yes I agree all right happy holidays all right happy holidays thank you bye healthy bye bye