 this one hello everybody if it's Wednesday it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly joining me as always is my own Glocken it's Tom what's up buddy hello friends riding him around and I'm three in one I was just gonna say that's a tight fit you're the you're the you're the big brother I'm like the the spellcaster and Doug is the warrior what's up Doug we're all together I'm good yeah you're good yeah yeah how you doing today Doug I'm doing good thank you all right mr. 2 plus tough with us good to have you back on the show it's been too long as we learned at the beginning for various reasons we were a minute or two late and that was completely my fault because I realized that you remember to check audio levels at the last minute and they weren't working so we got that all fixed now hopefully everybody can hear us all right and I haven't heard anybody say we can't hear you and yet people are talking so I'm gonna guess we're okay all right so tonight we're gonna talk about grandfather Nurgle but first the no news yep there it is uh there's a rumor engine let's start there okay um I I think I know what this is but you all go ahead vampirates Doug no so uh about a year and a half ago I gave up on trying to guess the rumor engines because they keep making specialist games and so I'm gonna go something far out there and say it is as football is to fantasy battles this is bowling to Aegis Sigma we're gonna have an Aegis Sigma bowling game that's they're rolling the skull that's what the picture is it's gonna be great there you go I like it I agree with that it's gonna be it's like blood bowl but it'll be bowl blood ball exactly it'll be blood bowling no just just no it'd be sure that works I'm okay with either frankly I'm not gonna die on that hill I was about to argue like now that's good all right so Tom what you you've got your clever idea here go ahead what is it it's night haunt it's night haunt okay this is night haunt and you know you know what tells me this is a night haunt more than anything else I'm ready the wrist because it has a little baby wrist because it looks breakable it looks like I've painted I have painted mini night haunt the wrist sure and let me tell you that is how they do night haunt wrists actually that's true yeah because that's how the guy with the lantern hold he looks just like that oh yep it does the wrist do they normally have webbed fingers uh that's energy that's not webs so he has webs no it's not in between his index finger and his middle finger that is a way you can see the line right there hold on I'm looking him up right now that we got the lantern here I hear that I'm saying you could be right so what is this fit in like a night haunt war cry warband um possibly or this is I mean like again this is all speculation we are a year out from my hypothetical reboot uh-huh and so we're in the space where we probably have night any new night haunt models that are coming we probably have you know debt like prototype versions of them that what you're telling me is they watched our our aesthetics review show where we reveal the results of our community survey and showed that night haunt had like the highest rating out of everything and they were like quick rush some night haunt models models into production we are sitting on a gold mine here people we got three weeks to design build and paint it absolutely as an aside as an aside uh one of our commenters Dana said that night hunt don't have fingernails like that uh the mourn goal does and so you guys have a very mourn goal ask hand I will agree yes and so this could very much be them bringing in the mourn goal aesthetics into like some of those elements back into night on yeah it's not very big because the hand is the same size as like a regular human skull so this is right model yep and we're and we're also like the flaming skull is like a thing sure like it's a thing within uh night haunt stuff I mean my entire night haunt army has converted flaming skulls I don't know if I would take skulls as evidence of anything no hammer no evidence of war hammer to get more specific than that is impossible flaming smoking skull oh yes no like skulls themselves you're right no no there's not at all a chaos sorcerer that I you know painted a couple whatever back that literally has like three flaming skulls on his shoulders yeah let's go with that but the combination of that with the rest of the hand aesthetics is what I'm saying is that this echoes night haunt now whether this could be a new actual like part of the line or part like a war like an underworld war band or a war cry war band or like who knows yeah sure but I'm saying it's something night haunt with the night haunt keywords there we go that's what I'm gonna go with there you go I like it uh here's why I think it's vampirates ready and I'm excited about this because this this tells me that the aesthetics for our new vampirates are not just gonna be like total war vampire coast vampirates okay but instead we're gonna get weird atrophied like you know skinny creepy old vampire vampirates like little thin rail long fangs long face you know like uh do you ever see what we do in the shadows the remake of it or whatever in the first episode when they meet their their boss whatever it's fine not yet no it's an okay show I don't particularly like it but in anyways in episode one Doug Jones a fantastic guy who's played every cool monster ever in the history of you know things uh he uh he's like an old dude he's one of those you know like very atrophied ribs sticking out you know long face sort of long bony finger long claws vampires like that's a vampire aesthetic clearly not eating enough yeah I mean yes it's kind of like real old ancient vampires get that like god and some mythos mythos right so um and the fact that he's got a flaming skull I've got an explanation for that too okay ready oh okay juju zombies that's right they're not just pirates it's a Caribbean situation we're back we're going voodoo vampires uh I'd be down for that oh my god I would be like uh well I could see it also as being like a grenade kind of like how the uh nirgle guy has like the heads he tosses yep yep because it's also the same effect they do on the obr with the catapult full of skulls or whatever it is or one of those things uh I'm just saying look big bad voodoo pirates and who are also vampires big bad voodoo vampire pirates vampires would be amazing I don't know I see they're sailing but I'm all about it I'm not gonna say no yeah like we need that kind of aesthetic worked into something again it shouldn't be like a one-to-one import okay yes of course but like bringing some of that in in the same way that they bring in yeah we've imported a lot of different cultural aesthetics and markers into the various releases lately so just give me some of that it would be awesome anyway that's what I want to say it's not sure I'm wrong but I but I would love it if I was right boy would that be a cold shot at the left field just pointing I I would love it if like for a month they did all these pictures but they were close-ups of like a severed hand that was like on somebody's trophy rack but we couldn't tell the difference and so they're just showing off all these models oh we got night on coming we got scaven it's just like all body parts on somebody else they did pull that at one point with uh what was it oh like the heads on the back of the one of those nergal guys I think or whatever they did that they they just showed like the trophies and everybody was like oh it's gonna be one of these things yeah no no it's just uh anyway other big news one more piece of big news that isn't actually news yet announcements yeah uh we have a uh announcement show this uh this Saturday probably probably the first of the nova what would have been at the nova open yeah I would imagine this is the they haven't directly said this but this has got to be part one of oh god yeah they stretched the last one out for like three months exactly I imagine they will too yeah the and you know you were there last year with me Doug Nova's obviously a big reveal show yes I'm sad we're not gonna be there this year but they had to see that like wait a minute if we do this over three weeks we get like 40,000 viewers for three weeks in a row everybody's dialed in everybody's paying attention and in the original announcement they said something to the effect of all paraphrase here slightly but I'm in the right ballpark they said we have a lot all capital letters or whatever you know mounds gore tremendously huge amounts of stuff to show you and we're gonna show you part of it this Saturday like that was the exact you know like close to the exact phrasing right one pittance of a cornucopia of releases exactly yes I hope that my only thing though with the way they did it last time was that I really want them to like stick the landing because there was a few of the previews they did last time where like they ended on and you can buy gift cards and we're like that I was that is the wettest fart I've ever heard yeah for the ending of a of an ending of a talk yeah you gotta have the big punch at the end right leave them on a high note exactly uh I you know so this they they put out like a little poster of what all is gonna be on this what all is gonna be covered there are six different things they generally do six segments 15 minutes each over an hour and a half this has all become like very predictable and wrote I would imagine I agree with Rob who guessed that the order they put them in which is not in any other way sensible is actually going to be the order they'll do them okay sure which is like necromunda war cry underworlds don't remember the fourth one is a 40k thing a horse heresy that's right a thing yeah uh 40k and an aos which maybe means we get the big ending if they learn from your lesson Doug maybe and then this is called like shadow iron and broken realms so I know you're out of the prediction game I know you're Doug but but here's my thoughts oh I could just say stuff just don't do it on my channel on your channel I can say whatever the hell I want that's right you can now you're in the right place so do you have any thoughts hopes dreams or wishes for this reveal for the show okay so if I could choose what I want this to be because I think it's a plausible name I want broken realms to be a campaign book just like Wrath the Everchosen with Gordrak taking a god be skull and ramming it straight through excelsis which is kind of a narrative lead that we've had for a while yeah yeah yeah and I just I want destruction to get some time in the sun and get cool sub faction rules just like the other one like uh well we're gonna be talking about Wrath the Everchosen and I a little bit but yeah yep not kind of stuff for destruction and maybe death I don't because Nighthawn doesn't have sub factions in those right things so but imagine if like glooms fight got a bunch of sub factions I know that'd be so rad they'll put them in white dwarf don't worry tom um and it'll be either broken or forgettable and then and then gone in 10 months yes absolutely that's what's important so yeah I mean the shadow is pretty easy right like they one has to believe that that's pointing at minimum but not maybe in total to the new uh war cry dark elf thing because they put up the hammer hall herald today for the can I work or I wore band uh you know they're like it's it's like have you seen this shadow lady it's like on the whole herald have you have you seen linissa right yeah exactly so so clearly uh they're you know this is that's on the cards that might not be the only shadow thing we get but I think that's at minimum we'll see the rest of them uh I hope no actually see a new dock book we will I'm calling her I'm putting the fly down I think we'll see a new dock book um we had had uh we had had rumors of a dock book back in January February that we reported yep and it was towards the end of the year that we were told and we're in that space now um I think that uh you know like we're in the area the launch into the final like quarter of the year um and so wouldn't surprise me if we got that announcement here it's actually where I would expect it um that said because of covid like all that stuff's up in the air like so any of that could get moved or pushed sure yep but like I would love a new dock book the old dock book was just it's it's it's out of whack in so many different ways and like I know people who don't play dock and might have only played against dock might be really angry at dock for a lot of the things it was able to do with like Hagnar and stuff but it's actually like not fun to play dock armies they're very I think that's why they're meta percentage drop like a rock because it's actually just legitimately in most cases not fun to just play the force it's it's very uni-dimensional you do one thing you push things forward and when you there's just a lot of ways you can't build in like if you want to use Marathi or or use a lot of the snake people it's like you don't just you just don't have command abilities right just not right because like right because you have to have a yeah you're absolutely right because right now like if anyone wants to use any command ability they have to be the general in the army right and for Marathi if like she's your general she not only does she not get a command trait as soon as she transforms she loses her command ability right yeah so it's a weird army anyways Doug you were saying I'm sorry go ahead oh no no I was just I was uh you answered my question I was gonna ask for a little bit more info because I I've only played against daughter's game twice once was Chuck for a narrative thing and then there was my local guy Ben for his first game because he just liked the models sure so I was gonna ask you what your concerns were like as an elevator pitch and you guys nailed it oh there you go yeah I mean it's it's such a it's such an easy low-hanging fruit to to fix that army because there's not a ton of units it just no it's really out of whack internal balance that's what I'm there right like just way off kilter there's there's a couple like right answers yeah and then and then there's like craith and then yeah sure sorry jack no I'm fine god that's it like I mean craith has to be better this time sure uh you know it'd be so easy it'd be like after they fight roll a die on a five plus they get to fight again like that's literally it'd be the same exact rules text you just move six up to a five up and suddenly I'm like okay now we're cooking with butter like this is suddenly a playable rule like the the statistical relevance there of how often that triggers in a game shoots way up with just that one yes yep or if there was any way to modify that like you know if two units charge plus one three four yeah yeah that'd be kind of cool or like a leader who once a game could bonus it up by one or two or something like that right just anything like that yeah well what I was going to say Doug was actually something similar to that is instead of doing it that way you do a sequencing so like for every one you roll oh it gets that that doesn't view it yeah like that doesn't trigger the number goes down by one yeah so the first one you roll like a sixth up the second one that's in the key is you have to have all these units in combat and still alive at the end of the problem sure but if you have like six in like you know somebody is going to get it and then the number yeah sure right that's cool and it jumps back up to six and it winds down and then jumps back up point is there's lots of ways hopefully we see a new doc book yes yeah anything else we'd so that's clearly the shadow I think the broken realms thing I hope like we're about at the end of the solar's let's be honest like we've got can we please be yeah we've this has gone on long enough we got it thank you okay time for a new narrative thing I actually completely agree with you it's going to be a destruction brace thing yeah well actually part of me makes me think that is I think I have it on my shelf up here but basically the new artwork for beast grave which is setting her like a lot of that material can cross right over and so like they already have a lot of the assets yep I'm like yeah you've been working towards this man just take me there I'm along for the ride yeah exactly I think that the the broken realms thing just feels like that's the new soul wars or whatever right that's the new narrative event that leads into the new soul wars right so in the same way we had something before that this will be the lead up to it right you'll have broken realms lead to like you know the shattered souls event or something like that because it's always got to have some name like that in it so whatever so follow-up question what if shattered realms is another malign sorcery that sets up for our no way it was malign portents yeah that was the that was the lead up yeah it was the lead up thing I like that book but it didn't take very well with the community but like that kind of thing I would love that but sure I think I think you're dead on I think that's exactly what it'll be maybe this time just don't do a big countdown to the launchable website with a single image on it just like throwing out ideas GW marketing well what I'll say is this you know and I think it would track if for example you had Gordrack like a obliterate excelsis right right and then having to turn his sights on azir you know and so so like the lead up event is basically demonstrating what the nuclear weapon does and then right that makes sense and then so then what happens is that everybody turns their attention to it because they realize what he can actually accomplish and and then what I would guess is that then the next the launch of the launch of third edition would correspond with probably like a destruction order box sure that'd be cool with you know with basically them trying to stem the tide of destruction as they march towards the azir so that they probably won't ever get there but the key is is that like they know the threat is credible and so what you would probably do is be like I'm marching towards azir haha all points smack it they just destroy everything in all points I heard that orcs if they destroy something they get to attack immediately afterwards and so they're all like oh crap excelsis just blew up I uh my personal feeling on it is uh is I would just love to see anything kind of destruction focus I think that'd be oh yeah absolutely so and it feels like and breaking things is something destruction likes to do so there you go I'm calling it that's I think you're absolutely right uh again just please no more countdown clocks to nothing okay so uh I mean it's just terrible okay so uh and yes I do agree the new suns of behemoth would sort of fit right into that well right because you had these big stompy giants so you killed our dad in the in the first chapter I guess yes whatever we're calling these yeah uh okay so that's basically the news it's pretty short because uh and will we do a show on Saturday maybe but who knows I don't know Tom might be out I might do a show alone I might rope somebody else into it there you go there you go uh and I know Rob is doing like a 12 hour stream that day so we'll see what happens we'll see if the news is worthy of of actually jumping on Rob from Donna's Wargamer yeah yeah yeah okay a 12 hour stream that day yes until raise money for their new uh uh T sports equipment stuff so okay anyway uh pick of the week stuff Doug what do you got to share let's go to some big of the week hold it up here so I was literally to the party for it but I just watched it uh earlier in the week and my pick of the week is uh gubertown hobbies put out a video called clever strategies for painting warhammer armies and he takes 10 necrons from the endominus set and just shows you really really interesting ways to put down like base colors but what's interesting is that it's a painting tutorial that never mentions like a brand of paint um and the reason I like that is because you're just teaching people like hey for necrons specific for those of you who don't know like they're almost all silver traditionally so you just paint the entire thing a specific color and then you can go back in and pick out you know the gun bits and the base thing and that kind of stuff separately uh so I just thought that was phenomenal because it's what I tell people is just paint paint it one color and then just pick everything else out like because this whole time I'm watching this video like this is amazing this would be perfect for chaos warriors and then you just go back and you just get like the fur on their cape or something and um yeah and so I thought that was awesome I'm also gonna I have to give a shout out to my my boys at reroll and once they're doing a narrative campaign as well so how to slip that second one in there that's all right we don't mind I will link both down in the description tom you're eating your chips in between you talking we're on to you tom we're on to your chip eating what are you what what's your uh what's your pick tom chew quickly also while you're chewing I'm gonna judge you for having two bottles of dr pepper in the back there bro oh those are empty um so oh yeah I'm trying to imagine you just crushing them right before we went live you have no idea I think I have some the fistful of chips and a bunch of dr pepper sorry go ahead no you're good all right so uh a friend of the show that's obviously gonna tie into the um the content of the show uh thanks for uh thanks to paul conti for for timing this oh so well he uh dropped a video today on starting your maggotkin of nergal army and so I want to encourage you to check it out it's about a 30 minute show and paul offers a lot of kind of like helpful advice yeah it's good I watched it right before the uh actually watched it right before this just to make sure that uh to see what he had to say and it's it is nice because he covers the base book and then also talks about expansion stuff and that's gonna be a big part of what we talk about is like nergal is beyond huge I like we'll get into it when you but I cannot imagine being a new person rolling up to this to this faction and then like playing it normally out of the book and then like somebody's like oh why didn't you use this stuff what and then you learn there's like seven other books with things you can use so right oh revelation for you beats of chaos yeah and yeah yeah exactly and and and and uh okay uh my pick of the week so uh our our good buddy sam sam lens uh a fantastic and amazing painter uh he has uh started up his his youtube channel he has a patreon where he's been doing a lot of stuff and teaching people and things like that doing private coaching but now he started putting some stuff up on youtube and he put up his first video i'll link it down below it's real great uh he goes through he's actually painting the hull of a night armature the little baby knights uh and he's doing it all without an airbrush it's all brush painting so I don't know how to respond to that and it's it's beautiful it shows you that if you uh you get out a big enough brush you can go to town so there you go uh he takes through it and makes something amazing he walks through all his steps and his wet blending and his battle damage and the whole shooting match so go check him out give him a sub encourage him to post up more stuff uh he's a great dude so uh there you go uh all that will be linked below uh all right let's talk about some hobby time Doug what have you been working on man uh so recently I got a a boatload of beasts of chaos because I want to build a pestilent throng for the nergal army uh because I really I've settled into my my nergal like list or at least the direction I like to play uh with the army and so they are a good compliment to that in theory you will find out in practice nice yeah I don't know how much I favor the pestilent throng but that's that's I'll be interested to see your results you know it's not about the rules it's about taking 80 dudes who can run very fast like the actual battalion rules haven't even looked at them could not care less you're there to die yeah super fair I get that they do that well run very fast is a thing that yes we'll do they don't hit many bars with a lot of clearance but move real fast across the table is one of them well and it's especially with the rest of the nergal buffs right yeah yeah absolutely yeah and so I've been building uh what um like 75% way painted through 30 on gore and then got some vestigore and that kind of stuff nice nice so that's a lot of progress tom let's know let's we're ready tom we're ready to hear what you've been working on buddy here we go I have been selling things still sell that's good progress Doug approves he has some wonderful uh uh nergal uh on his table uh that is true that is true yeah uh so I'm just so liquidating uh uh it's models slowly but surely okay well tom I expect you to have something painted at some point when you get back from your vacation or whatever someday maybe put a model on the table and get something painted you have models sitting behind you I can see them this should just be paint on those those are more neural things I'm selling darn it tom all right so uh for myself uh it's been a very productive week I finished up my loon boss on cave squig as part of the marathon I'll post him up this weekend that was such a fun model to paint that is like one of the most characterful wonderful models they've released in a while absolute joy joy to paint that guy uh I want to do another one of him at some point but this last weekend I got a game in and I was playing my scaven my scaven aren't an army that I take to tournaments they're just an army for me because they're old and I've had them for years and years and you know they're painted at lots of different times all over the place and quality and stuff like that but as I was playing them I was like I played the army and I and I thought to myself you know what man I really love this army like it rekindled my love of the rats and so immediately I was like I got to get some more stuff so I dug through everything I had I found another warp lightning cannon so I'm painting that up I found another doom wheel so I'm painting that up uh the the worst sub assembly model of all time just like all let's see to paint the doom wheel he's in one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve parts uh of sub assembly I could have gone farther but that was that was I had to call it at some point it's ridiculous and then I'm also painting another super old doom wheel that I have this is the old metal doom wheel this is what they used to look like I know you you too can't see it but the audience can uh and you know he's just going to be a little quick crappy paint job and I'm going to rebase the whole army I never rebased the army off of um off of squares because that's what they were on originally and uh some of the newer stuff that I've painted for them I went ahead and put it on rounds because you know dove I was going to paint something new I was going to put it on the right base so uh I'm going to rebase the whole army probably this weekend and uh that'll be uh I think at my last count I I crossed the 10,000 point threshold um so it'll be rebasing like 10,000 all of it because a little bit of it's on round basis but let's call it 9k worth of that what's funny about scaven is how much I still don't have enough of what I want even with 10,000 plus points okay wow because the army is outrageously huge yes right like the raw number of war scrolls is madness so like clan rat wise I'm okay I've got 150 clan rats okay great so I'm I'm set there like there it would be very hard to imagine the situation where I couldn't put the number of clan rats on the table I would want I've got my 40 storm firman generally good there I did take them out this last weekend and god they're they fun at that like they've always I've always liked them but they were so over pointed their new point value is perfect wonderful good time uh I was playing a selvin earth player who uh who let me get right up to within three inches with thankful of all of his dryads and I had like three of the warp fire throwers on thankful wow then there were no more dryads they just all were like whoop those are all gone and uh and then in charge to the 40 untouched storm vermin into all of his kernauth who then got ramped up like all the way with all the bonus tax it was a great time anyways but I don't like you know but I there's so much stuff I don't have like I don't have enough rattling guns and warp fire right I only have like four warp fire throwers I only have two rattling guns that's not enough of that stuff you need more of it this will make three doom wheels that's not enough doom wheels you need more than that that's a ridiculously low number of doom wheels you can run four in the army I need at least four so I'm just trying to add a bunch of stuff to it so I was going through I found an old bag that I had of like old metal okay that look bag of old metal scaven and I found some extra gutter runners in there I found another engineer in there more rattling guns and more disail so I'm going to paint all those up too nice so there you go and then I'll then I'm going to convert my fourth doom wheel to be an a uh an AOA hero like a 400 point AOA oh yeah hero who's writing like a mock doom wheel because I've always wanted a hero and a doom wheel so yeah there you go yeah so cool and I'll do like a little video out of it for rebasing it'll be productive like I'll make a video on rebasing how to going from squares to rounds that's a video that I should have done a long time ago and stuff like that I might do uh I'm trying to decide exactly what bases I want to do if people have ideas or what they'd want to see me do you can feel free to say it in the chat right now or put in the comments of this video if you're watching later I'm kind of thinking about like dungeon cave type of stuff that might be kind of fun like cave pattern stuff but I don't know we'll see I I'm just still trying to come to terms with the fact that you're going to rebase your scaven yeah yeah yeah it's gonna happen something you said you would never do well I'm a liar I'll tell you what the here I'll tell you what the breaking point moment was Tom here's it is you ready for this here you go all my scavener on squares and all my scavener magnetized and I ran an infantry heavy army something I don't normally do so I had 80 clan rats and 40 storm vermin on the table is the core of my army right yeah okay so I had 120 20 like little dudes on little bases yeah and every time I would move them what would happen I'd move them and then snap they just they'd snap together right I get these little piles of magnetized guys as they would all just go whoop and snap together and I was like all right I am done with this I'm that's awesome because there's just I'm never going to transport them out of this house like they're never going to go to a tournament with me so I don't need to have right magnetized right yep so uh so like nope rebasing that was it I was like I gotta get rid of these magnets and if I'm gonna go to all that trouble I might still just rebase them that was the decision point it was so frustrating because every five seconds it would be snap I'm gonna strangle you little morons oh man yeah Paul nailed it goblin green bases do it make it so it will never happen never ever ever ever ever ever bases can be any color you want as long as the base rim can be any color you want as long as that color is black that is the correct color I follow the Henry Ford model of of of of base rim color anyway so yeah that's that's what I'm working on so a lot of hobby stuff I'm excited to get these on the table yeah this will put me up to like three lightning cannons and three doom wheels I want to take out a couple of the warp cog convocations and this will give me a level where I am more of this so yeah I'm excited I think doom wheels have uh I've got some warpstone in the engine as it were okay anyway uh that's enough of Vince talks about Skaven in the nergal show uh although we'll come back to nergal a little later or come back to Skaven later in Disgusting Nergal uh speaking of which let's go let's talk nergal all right guys here's my question I'm gonna start off with this is what I was saying right before we went live okay how is this army not going to be one of the top most more most more whatever pick the word you like let's say more competitive armies post uh open up from lockdown in tournaments if we were running normally in in a world where we can all play each other given its vast breadth of capabilities when I said books there are what five sick maybe six different books if you count it that have nergal stuff in them so the nergal book itself yep slaves to darkness piece of chaos yep Skaven Wrath of the Everchosen and then to merkin if you want to count it as like five and a half or whatever you know that's kind of its own but it's it's out there okay whatever that's a lot of stuff and just when you look across here the sheer number of like combos and things that a lot of the stuff just works together by the way this this entire force has like 10 times the number of scrolls that are in the Gitz book and yet half the amount of ghettoization and like everything actually works together pretty amazingly uh as well as what I think are just some absolute top notch really really amazing units right now in certain roles like you need to you need things to do certain roles looking across the breadth of what you have available you can usually fill that role with like a best in class thing like you mentioned bodies that you want to get across the table fast done like there's so many good options you've got there right spoil form yeah high number of attacks you know like okay you've got those options you've got just like hard hitting hammers yep you can fill that role right doing a bunch of mortal wound damage yep we can do that too right um being pretty tough in holding a spot yep we can do that how about negatives to counter the shooting meta yep we can do that all day right like there's so many strengths this army has it just doesn't I think is the only thing that is held it back is that it doesn't have like some outrageously broken cheaty mechanic is that it that it mostly plays a fair game yeah I mean that's what I mean like it does yeah like it's it's one of those things I was explaining to somebody else um on another show but I was just there's nothing like dead sexy about it like you know there's no combo that's like oh this is amazing or this sub faction is the best but it's the fact that you have a toolbox that is bigger than any other faction I mean arguably like I mean it's at least up there if not pastscaven and gloomspite and cities and when you start dipping around yeah yeah it was just interesting because I put together some sample lists and I was like I love everything about these lists like I am I am digging what I am seeing here as far as capability goes the actual models as as we all know I hate nergal my soul for its aesthetic it's it is the opposite of what I like but that being said capability wise just looking at words on paper I'm like hey these words I like these words these are good words they are matched up with numbers I also like yep all right so let's talk about let's let's just start kind of general overview of some picks of some units okay across this take it across the sweep things we think have you know capability possibility quality what we need to talk about if you're looking for a nergal force for fun or profit or pleasure right what are the things that you should be looking at what are the what are some of the units that give it grab you Doug take us take us off first you can start us off I know you've got a couple favorites yeah for sure um I think I'll keep it I'll start simple and just say blight kinks and the reason I say blight kinks is they are dirt cheap for as many wounds as you get because they're each four and then the leader's five I believe 21 wounds for 140 points right now yeah and uh and so they're also the reason I like suggesting them for new folks is one they're in a star collecting box if you have three units of them plus any other foot heroes that are no named you have a battalion like lord of blights sort of plagues makes it really great to get into the game that way and it only makes them way better uh and then addition to that like their ability to swing above their weight class for 140 points is there it's not reliable per se but it's there um and so that's definitely like if I was gonna if someone was like what's the first unit I should look at I'm like blight kinks because you can find anything you want to fill in the weaknesses around them and they are always good yeah good solid center unbelievably cheap for the wound count relatively good output like depending on obviously it can depend whether or not they're in the battalion where they get rent but either way still against low armor targets there they can be highly destructive and shockingly mobile with their plus one to run in charge and the ability to slingshot them off a tree or sorry with their plus one to run and plus one to charge and the ability to run and charge if you slingshot them off a tree that's what I'm saying uh yeah I'm down for that I mean that point strap on them was crazy and I've seen a lot of people lean hard into the skew I don't know that that's the right answer like yes that's a lot of fat on the board but I don't know that that's the right answer though I think they are a strong skew being just all blight kinks yeah just like 40 kinks or 45 or 50 or some some you know it really insane number mm-hmm that just doesn't feel right to me because then you you're very like you're a very unipurpose tool at that point mm-hmm right like you can do this one thing uh I'm a big fan of um uh let's go with uh I I I'm a big fan of the good talking about yeah yeah that uh unending gift or whatever it's called yeah oh yeah yeah sure yeah um because what it allows you to do realistically is set him on a point and just not move it sure um and it just he takes a lot of effort in order to actually like shift then off of you know wherever mm-hmm sure so yeah all right I dig that uh all right I'm gonna we're gonna we might as well start this conversation now okay like you two both had perfectly fine reasonable picks out of the Nurgle book much appreciated now I've got to bring in the thing I got to bring in the spoiler I got to bring in the thunder from down under and that is marauders Nurgle marked marauders look I don't like it either okay okay I don't like it either but I'm sorry man uh 40 Nurgle marked marauders are far 40 points more than yeah then then sort of like basically 10 blikings yeah right so you have the same ish number of wounds 41 to 40 right yeah okay uh you're paying 40 points more for the marauders what are you getting out of them you're getting an outrageously more amount out of them okay like you have a unit of 40 that is not just fast but blindingly fast yeah okay they could absorb the bell buff from the guo you mentioned yep okay but they could they can slingshot off trees they also have plus one to run in charge and as well known they have their ridiculous charge trick where they can set their lowest die to a six okay and their basics faster move base right they are they have built-in rend as long as they have a the correct number of models right okay they make way more attacks like way more attacks than 10 blikings like 10 blikings is 30 attacks right yep yep I mean again I'm just going to assume you have them all in whereas yeah which is not likely but no but also those those can explode on sixes so it's kind of strange but I get what you're saying yeah yeah 30 attacks five of them would mathematically five of them explode and add another 15 so let's just call it 45 so we're fair or 48 I guess would be what it actually is with the three and a half so 48 yesh somehow attacks is how it's working out whatever something like that math is hard but the marauders are coming in with 80 attacks okay uh on threes and four instead of threes and threes but built-in rend uh and by the way the marauders can also absorb in addition to everything I just mentioned they can also absorb like the re-roll hits and wounds off of the sorcerer lord they can get uh the wound bonus and the plus one to save from the uh from the uh nurgle marked war shrine from the gas war shrine because nurgle gives nurgle's the one that gives plus one to save suddenly those marauders are running around on the same four up save easily uh as the as the blight kings right and if they're near the shrine also having a six up to back it up because it the aura would affect them as well right and uh so just making outrageously more attacks re-rolling everything right with just like one buff piece following them around uh and it's like they are so not only are they so good base they're so eminently buffable by everything because everything from std and everything from nurgle feeds them like we haven't even talked about putting a glockin in the list and then turning them into 80 wounds of nonsense when you send them in right right so like look I didn't want it to be the case but as I was building lists I was like yep move move to cart like you know just like 40 marauders 40 marauders okay now let's talk about the rest of the list like those are they are crazy hammers in this army that are just so stupid fast because you put it oh you can put the war queen as well by the by for another plus three to charge so like six base plus a seven run plus three for the bell plus three for the war queen right plus their and they were which is run across the table which and their run which and their charge which is basically always a minimum nine 99 chance roughly of being a nine yep yep right that is outrageous threat range on those and they hit like a mac truck when they show up okay they do yep so at any rate like it's I think one string of this army and this is related to this is that like most of those buffs that you just trotted through don't require spells absolutely yep and so like manipulating the wheel does but other than that but that can be done from anywhere on the table for sure and so I like I think that in moving into this new meta I think they're strongest you know like characteristic is that their buffs don't require spells yeah yeah a lot of them are just kind of aura buffs like there are a few good spells don't be wrong we all love yeah yeah yeah yes they have but you don't need those to work right you're you can get a lot of what you want without that being in the case just like a big bunch of plague bearers has a really good just built-in self buff and you doesn't need to be anything except a big group of plague bears not say there's not other synergies but like just having built in neg two to hit from shooting because you've got a big bunch of them is really strong against a lot of armies they're going to be on the table right now yeah also I just can't get behind the models for the Marars I just I can't do it that's fine I mean like I converted for mine like I converted a bunch of Reavers I carved off all the the corn seed mills you know I put them on the right basis and that's that's how I went about it I used a bunch of Marauder bits shields and stuff like that and it works but it takes work you know it's not something that's just super easy or natural for sure for sure Marauders are straight up ugly and I hate them from the depth of my soul I really do like this is not because I have no care to ever actually run this army like we could be doing a slaness show and I could be talking about the same crap I'd be like Marauders are the way to save slaness it's the way to make the army not bad anymore and that might be true and I'd be like don't care never using that yeah get those out of here well you know they're good no that's all let's just say they're good please Doug no I was just gonna say there there is a point of talking about when things are competitive that I had someone in a live show be like well how come this isn't just winning everything it's like because it's it's not fun and it's unwieldy to move all these dudes every turn and see you clock out so it's like you butt up against the realities of trying to be a human being playing this game yeah and just moving a hundred and twenty exactly twenty five little bases yeah yeah hunter absolutely absolutely the case uh but still worth the discussion if you are the type absolutely no yeah if you have one solid unit of them for that for that minimal of a point investment and all the buffs apply to literally everything else in the army right why not throw 40 at you I don't care absolutely the case all right Doug back to you what's some other hot pick units let's keep going there's so many we could choose here but uh yeah I know um I'm trying I'll try to squeeze one from a different book but uh honestly plague monks are amazing plague monks are so good uh basically I mean they're they share the same kind of general idea as the marauders in terms of their horrid unit they can be buffed uh but I like plague monks especially with their new war scroll where it's a little more simplified and they have some really cool internal things like just just the unit um as far as like attacking when you kill them and and all that kind of stuff so I I like that quite a bit yeah um yeah so if you're looking for an alternative because you really really hate marauder models I would say plague monks yeah I completely agree they can get a lot of the same things we just talked about depending on how much of that nurgle stuff from scaven you steal right because you've got the option of not just the monks but also the furnace the priest and the big vermin lord all of whom are nurgle marked and all of whom bring basically the same types of buffs we just described right yeah the kind of re-roll hits this bonus attacks blah blah blah and and that's a thing um I just want to put a pin in it because it matters for the rest of the discussion is like a lot of the buffs they're not unit specific it's keyword nurgle is the the vast overwhelming majority so even if you take a unit that's cheap to be sacrificed they're gonna put in work and you can just shift those buffs to something else and that's awesome yeah I agree and your your death frenzy point is so well stated like the ability to fight on death is such an actual powerful tool in the current meta right um because the second some fight first come quad yes I always have to I I don't know why I use our joke word for it when I always re-explain it afterward but anyways the second one of those slams into you and picks up the unit of 40 which it will do yep right like easily that's not even a stretch for that thing to pick up that unit it'll have it'll have spillover wounds it might not need to attack a second time but the fact that you then get to basically fight with probably most of them back at that thing means you will put real damage on it so yep 100% I'm with that I'm with that pick there is an advantage there and again still dirt cheap those guys are just outrageously still efficiently costed uh Tom what do you got what's your next what's your next hot pick uh you know it used to be it would have been a harbinger of decay but it's just not anymore yeah um thanks to the no no stacking yeah old dumb model always hated him and hated the way he made the army play yep yeah because he forced the army into this weird either daisy chaining or like a tight bubble around him to maximize I think the army plays better in like detached power pairs and power triples operating around the board yep yep so agreed uh yeah I think that that's he's he's out I agree but I don't think it's as bad as people say I don't think you need him okay fair enough yeah yeah um I got more picks well let me say this I like lord of afflictions okay right on um let's talk about the lord of afflictions because because let me start this way because we have like kings at like so effective now mm-hmm I think the lord of afflictions really gains a lot about you 10 000 present he's awesome yeah I mean and so I think that it's um yeah yeah uh so I he can he can be a carrier for rust fang like he can just do all the things that we kind of need him to do so no I agree I think the lord of afflictions one of the things that you want in this army is a good solo operator somebody should fly around pin a unit on the corner like we've talked about talked about many times on this show the importance of pinning units an MVP for me in most games I played with slanesh was the stupid mask okay this dumb little dancey five-woon hero right yeah but she's such a good pinner because she would just like float around and do her little dance right and then she would just tag the edge of something and then they'd have to slowly pile in to kill her which would actually take quite a while and she'd hold that whole unit up or force them to retreat away or whatever but then they waste a turn right and I think he's that I think he's absolutely that right because he can be relatively fast for any of the things we've mentioned plus his own ability and he's he's not unlike the biggest base in the world he's still on a sort of biggest cavalry base but he's one guy right and he's a great like little independent dude to walk around and go pin units or do work or hunt in the back field you know what I mean just go like you go around you hit a little chaff unit then you swing around at the back field and now you're back there messing stuff up for their little their little objective holders right making them have to turn and deal with him for sure yeah no I uh I use them in every game I love them yeah uh well let's just roll on then all and my pick will be both of the drone types okay yes so your puscoil blight lords who I think are going to be my lesser pick sadly I know I'll let you defend them and then the plague drones which are the ones with the the regular plague bears on top um I like both of these dudes for uh a couple things that they bring to the table one flight right yes like just a useful ability in its own right uh two the blight lords are more of like a mobile anvil they can be real fast yeah it'd be a mobile anvil the drones can be more of a mobile hammer yeah and that you know it's kind of how they break out they do need like the drones need certain synergies and stuff to really hit as hard as you would want them to um but they can do like they're a moderate ish hammer like they're acceptable they're a good secondary threat that's fast and can flank on top of your like walking blight kings or your or your big block of marauders or the things we've already just talked about right yeah for sure because you like look it's fun to talk about the stuff in the void as though we're all just playing on like flat tables with no terrain and no enemy forces and no yeah endless spells and other nonsense that gets in the way but like being on foot is is innately worse than being in the air right and there is a high value in this game to being able to fly somebody can't just like plop down a big wall in between two terrain pieces and go I guess your marauders can't come through here anymore so sorry you know the flies just go over the top so yeah well you use you use a lot of pusscoil blightlords right Doug yeah so uh when I am army building the first thing I do is I spend a thousand and fifty points for lord of afflictions three units of pusscoil blightlords and the affliction cyst which uh he basically does all the things that you said you mentioned before but the thing about the battalion is he lets them um all get super movement and so I'm always in my opponent's nose turn one yeah and uh they don't really require any buffs because there's not a lot of synergy I mean there's much more so for the plague drones but like for the pusscoil blightlords like they can just sit there and be fat anywhere so they might as well do it in your face so uh yeah I just I hurl them forward and then I can use the lord of afflictions who's now you know midboard across just across the midboard line to go pin down a unit if they need to yep right on yeah I like I love them as the sort of alpha block type of tool right to pin people in with a big portion of their army and sort of make them react to it um which is it's interesting because there are some of these scenarios like have you had a chance to play blades edge yet the one where you remove uh where you end up removing objectives one of the new scenarios uh so I think they gave it a new name is that the one where like they're they're all in a perfect line and then if you go second you get to pull away one yeah that's okay yeah sorry I had a different name in the um the storm vault scenario thing it was actually in there first oh yeah yeah it was my favorite scenario uh yes I have played that one not specifically with my nergal I think I think I stole my storm gas at that point no what's interesting about it is I've played it a couple times now and it's fascinating how much how good an alpha block scenario works in that thing because if you jump on them and sort of hold them back and you're getting like four or five of the points in like round one and two right by round three when there's now only four points that exist it just becomes actually really really hard for them to ever climb back up right because as they push you off now what they take two back three back okay they get three points you still get one right it just becomes almost impossible for them to catch your total you get what I'm saying like you can race way up in turns one and two and just make it so it's like okay I'm I'm untouchable now because they're getting pulled and that's the regardless of the mission that's the core strategy of my army is there's just I'm gonna race up to the top turn one and in the rest of the game is me drinking a beer and you trying to kill everything fast enough to to get unclogged yeah no absolutely yeah right on uh I dig it uh all right Tom do we want to talk about plague bears we kind of mentioned it before do you would you like to touch plague bears you've used some plague bears I mean you probably don't want to actually touch them because they do seem sticky and gross they are like you know they would be sticky you know it they would totally be sticky um yeah yeah um I mean they they can't really kill anything they're on 32 mil bases true um and so that's all pretty useless um but but they got cheaper but they got cheaper and um and they do what needs to be done yeah does that make sense um so yeah I am a fan of them let me say it that way have you ever done the scene or done the list where it's like two big blocks of 30 of them and some lord of lights to like make them untouchable have you seen that I have seen that I don't think it's real useful yeah I've played against a few times now have you found it effective um I did it was actually one of my most fun games when I was playing my beast of chaos where I had just a few tools to shoot like I had the zangor on this or whatever they're um but I you know it's one of those things I as much fun as I had I immediately acknowledged like oh man if I had like even one decent gun this would all be shut down because I would snipe the lights out and then yeah I don't know but it is an interesting thing and there is a game there if you're not ready for it you're hosed yeah yeah what I like about plague bears is one I and I know the point adjustment wasn't huge to them but to me it was actually exactly the right amount especially in the current meta because they have they have two you're right they won't kill anything right they're they're just like a giant pillow you put on the board like a rotten pillow full of pus but they're a pus pillow but that being said uh they have two things just natively on their scroll that I actually really love one obviously built in five up mortal wound save right yes a lot of the game right now is the ability to sort of kind of around mortal wounds right you've got like croak and techless and a lot of other people like that who want to who want to go go us spreading little mortal wounds around right so having big blocks with built-in protection to that is actually really valuable yeah uh to the fact that when you have them over 20 their negative we've mentioned this before their negative to be hit in shooting and neg one to be hit in melee yep I find like unbelievably valuable that's that is crazy hard for a lot of armies to pull up with their shooting right um because you will push a lot of armies to needing fives to hit you sixes to hit you with their good stuff and things like salamanders or whatever you know stuff like that gets a lot less scary when your when you have a save against their mortal wounds yep and you're giving them neg two to hit right like you just vastly reduce their damage same with like flamers or pinks or you know you pick whatever you like that's the shooting at you like neg two to be hit and shooting is super good uh yeah okay uh really really crack a new new uh tactical ground here on this one neg two to hit get it if you can well the thing that I like about them and honestly I prefer them in the summoned five man units than I do the 10 like actually buying them yeah sure and and the reason I say that is because like they are annoyingly they're in this annoying space where I find my opponents either over commit to kill them or they under commit and there's a dude left on an objective and when it's a full unit people are like oh yeah I will all throw my evocators at them and they'll be gone yeah no question they totally will be they're not going to do a thing but if it's five and you're like well I have this you know two or three I don't know I was trying to think of this cave and sniper dudes but any you know any kind of ranged unit that that's meant to remove something from an objective right it can be just a pain in the butt enough to be deceptive to make hard decisions so yeah I like it I like it uh all right should should we talk about uh we mentioned him at the top of the show should we talk about ol glott ol ol big ol big glott glott yes yes speaking of people who got well speaking of people who got cheaper yeah I mean technically yes yeah that is pretty mean technically yes it is strictly true yes that's exactly yes he did in fact get cheaper uh it's not it's not a thing that's like open for subjective interpretation like yes he got cheaper okay all right so uh he went down obviously to glott he went down into ally territory yes that's the key now he is now 380 okay and the things we need to talk about with him are like combat wise or whatever he actually does is like it's okay right it's it's fine he's fine he's okay I'm not sure he's punching 380 points worth of melee power but that's all right okay right he has 18 wounds on a four up save and he heals a little bit each round fine right right but why you're taking this guy right is for his command ability very similar to other types of things like this uh except that his is not like the guos is restricted to the plot so it's plus one attack the guos is restricted to nergal demons his is just nergal units so it works on everything we've talked about so far right like works on marauders works on plague monks works on you know uh the plague drones and and vestigors and nights yep yep any of it any of it all of it uh so that's good generally plus one attack command abilities are you know good also also we're really this is the hot take episode here getting more attacks it's good but okay but this just is emphasized as a point that you asked me and tom earlier of just like how come people don't see this as like the next top it's because none of it's like crazy getting more attacks is good in every army but here it's it's backed up by all these things that are coming together anyway sorry no i agree completely and then obviously he has his spell right his fleshy abundant spell which we talked about a little bit cast on a seven uh friendly unit within 14 that is visible to them add one to the wounds characteristic of all models in that unit until your next hero phase and at the start of your next hero phase that unit's when characteristic is reduced to its original value um which is super super duper good on like one wound things like uh plague bears or marauders or things like that when you suddenly rocket those things up to 60 or 80 wounds it's just the the the the amount they don't die right right is just insane uh i mean the fact that you could you could be dropping that onto uh a pack of marauders that is buffed up as i previously described is a nightmare oh yeah as that thing that sits there and fights for the whole next turn at never going below 20 models basically because it's 60 wounds worth of dudes now right i mean it it's okay like let's not it's still a heart spell to get off on a seven for him who doesn't have like casting yes totally fair like it's okay is what i would say um i don't know like i used to love the clog and i like i like i lovingly painted up mine and i have just never been satisfied like i and i was lured in by the plus one attacks right and i was like oh this is it you know and it just not it just doesn't get the job done yeah i get it he's he's still probably a little expensive for what he actually can't accomplish especially in the world where it's hard to get his spell off i mean that's just that's just for sure yeah right uh yeah i i tend to i'll agree with tom on that one like he my thing is he stays on the shelf not because he's bad he's not bad it's just he doesn't do what i want him to do and what my army does and kind of like what i'm what what how i like to play however with him now being an ally territory like that's awesome it's so awesome because then you can take a scaven army with all pestilence and and there's this a lot of directions you can go where you know sure it's not about the glotkin but uh i feel like he has more utility now in other places yeah no that's fair uh i mean again i don't want to overplay him but i think he's in the this should be considered area now right when which whereas when he was above 400 i still i wasn't a buyer for sure i'm sure i'm recommending a buy but i'm in a i'm interested phase with him sure sure uh anybody else we want to we want to talk about that we haven't covered yet i mean there's a lot more obviously a ton more units is there anything else that we have okay what else you got uh oh no i was saying yesterday there's a ton more units um no i don't think because honestly the problem is there's so many ways to play that the faction that like what i see as amazing is totally different like i think plus coil blay lords are the b's knees but everyone but you'll find a lot of people online are like they don't do anything it's like that's okay yeah yeah they just need to stay alive and not do anything right right uh we'll talk about units that we wish were good at the end okay for sure that's good because there are also a lot of like aw scrolls in this leading off camera to pick up my my wrath of the ever chosen because i don't have the the uh the four sub factions memorized uh all right so let's talk about the four sub factions that's what i want to go into next or sure nergal previously and we we kind of gave these short shrift when we did wrath of the ever chosen but i think that was unfair and i'd like to spend more time on them now nergal famously is one of those books that does not have sub factions uh fine okay like first of all not everybody needs sub factions if we're going to hazard handing out sub factions to everybody then we need to have a real come to jesus moment about uh how we're going to balance these things out okay like everybody's like at the top of the show people are like get sub factions and here's all time gets you got to get them gets sub factions and i'm like whoa whoa whoa whoa let's just let's slow our roll here okay like not i don't think gets need sub factions i think we could you know what i'd just rather how about we just give gets a real allegiance ability i would accept that too ten thousand percent i i just my point is i don't want to see every book and every army designed exactly the same sure okay i i value variants in play experience and yeah many of the armies i play are the ones that like don't have sub factions and i'm happy with that so anywho neither here nor there uh all right so we got four in here the magnificent wanderers the droning guard the blessed sons and the drowned men and so the first two are more or less focused on demons the second two are more or less focused on rot bringers okay so dug what do you what do you like out of here what where would you like to begin on these i'm gonna have you start us off what's been your hot pick oh uh so i mean going along with what i said earlier my hot pick is going to be the drowned men um which is partially the theme of my army i started painting it before this book came out so it kind of just like fit right in but anyway so uh you want me to go through like the command okay hit us walk us through it so yeah the drowned men is specifically a a mortal nergal thing that focuses on posquo blightlords and so they have a thing called ability in nergal's embrace roll a dice each time a drowned men rot bringer model is slain combat phase on a two up the attacking unit suffers one mortal wound just who cares you could just cut that text out nobody cares because uh i mean my entire you know your posquo blightlords all the ones that i have half an army is eight dudes so you know for the command trait is really where it shines for me and that is you can reroll charge rolls for friendly drowned men posquo blightlords units holy within 14 of the general so that's that's when i do my trick of i launch the lord of afflictions up forward everyone goes with him and then he can give them reroll charges to ensure that everybody gets in the combat or at least can position themselves super super well um command ability now this is going to be a reoccurring theme for the command abilities here where you're just like i hope you're ready for the test after this dissertation because they're just worthy um basically at the start of the combat phase you pick a friendly blightlord unit holy within 12 of uh rot bringer hero until your next hero phase if the unmodified wound roll for an attack made by the blight weapons specifically is six improve the rune characteristic uh by one and they could have just given um rend like it could be a command ability where it's like just get rend and it still would not break anything whatever um yeah and an artifact of power is um the rot kraken high which is add one to the bearers wound characteristic right on now is it specifically you did you pick this one because it's the plus goal blightlord focused one over like say the blessed suns did you like the better focus on it yeah so basically i ran through a few turn ones uh kind of comparing the two of them so just to kind of let you know um sneak peek ahead so the blessed suns let you use the at the double command ability without spending command point once per turn yep and so with so i was kind of comparing like okay what's more effective getting that free re-roll to charge to ensure these units get in so i don't have to spend a command point there or the free command point from at the double in the beginning i just you know in the times that i played his the lord of afflictions bubble of re-roll charge rolls because it affects him himself it does much better at the thing i was describing earlier of throwing the blightlords up in your face and then him getting his re-rolls can go and pin down a unit sure uh so i just i just found it to be better i mean like thematically it works too but in practice it just goes smoother for me with how i play um yeah that'd be mine no fair answer fair answer yeah i mean because so let's let's do the blessed suns same exact ability right the two up this one's a little more broad it works with uh sort of blight kings because it's just blessed suns rot bringer units and as you mentioned the command trait is you can use the at the double basically your run is automatically six once around and their artifact is you can re-roll all save rolls for attacks at target the bear which i don't hate no no and i i don't mind the plus one that's just fine yeah yeah absolutely um now their command ability is like i'm not even gonna bother and i told you no i'm just not even gonna bother it's like it's so insane what they're like whoever came up with this text they were doing some some galaxy brain thinking when they were writing this text let me tell you what so the the idea is cool right it's just hey did you do more wounds than their bravery yes then they take three extra wounds it's just to clear out horde armies but the verbiage needed to articulate that in a rules way is like right no no no no no you know i almost feel like what we need is so you've seen new 40k uh the new 40k rule book right where they'll have like the big block of of like detailed rules text whatever but then underneath it they like bullet point out what they just said in really simple plain language right yeah put it in english yeah they just put it into english right like because there's the difference between sort of the legalese needed to handle the corner cases and just what's gonna handle 99 of the cases and they just actually admitted that in the 40k rule book because for example if under this command ability they said what you just said yes if it just said if you deal more wounds than their bravery then you deal three additional mortal wounds which is awesome right see above for details on how this works exactly then you like reading it would be so much easier once you had the context of what you were a yeah because when you start reading it you're like what what journey are you taking me on here words this is yeah exactly i don't know where we're going exactly you're a passenger in an out of control car as you read that paragraph uh but yeah okay uh tom what it what out of any of the four of these uh you particularly like no no i mean like there's like it's not yeah like everything else it's like like yeah it's okay there's some benefits there's some you know drawbacks and yeah i'm fine yeah i mean i i agree with that i will say this i think my actual favorite out of this whole set okay uh is the droning guard okay yeah that was my next pick for sure yeah and i'll tell you why i like the droning guard i like the droning guard even if only like half my army is actually demons because i just like what it does uh which is so both the munificent wonders in the droning are the same base ability which is when an enemy unit is within three inches of any friendly droning guard demon units worsen the rend characteristic of that unit's melee weapons by one to a minimum of you know nothing which is okay good stuff um i like anything that reduces rend i think that's really good you know not everybody has rend in the game obvi obvi but still sapping people's rend is generally a good thing yep um the their command ability is really good even without any kind of weird stacking which is you can pick a a droning guard plague drone unit so this is all about the plague drones specifically obviously the the dude i mentioned earlier that the plague bearers on the on the flies and you they're disgusting resilience goes up by one so now they're disgustingly resilient on a four which is strong uh and then their command trait i absolutely loved like i just i love love love love love it which is after armies have been set up but before the first battle round begins all the friendly droning guard plague drones units get to move four inches super cool i love pregame move stuff and being able to move all of my flyy buzzy demon dudes even four inches is really good for just creating space for sure there's a lot of there's a lot of um there's a lot of objectives now that start like just outside of your control reach and some of these and some of the new battle plans right where like your the edge of their line and your setup are you know don't just like our our asymptotes of each other right right and so any kind of pregame move where you can just go like okay i have this like and this is going to be mine unless you come do something about it right so okay uh and then obviously the um the cloak of flies uh the uh is their their artifact is just subtract one from hit rolls for a tax made with melee weapons that target the bearer okay cool me cool beans uh yeah i mean uh i think that one's pretty good again i i value plague drones i think you have to build the army somewhat around that but you don't have to go like all in on it you get out yeah points in whatever and be good i think about i if i had gone the path of like collecting demons instead of mortal stuff this this would be a huge win because i'm looking at this i'm like okay well at this point because of the way the keywords work you could do that big brick of 30 plague bears and a um blightlord who now has a minus one to be hit so it's a little more protection um because it just has to be a hero doesn't have to be a demon hero and then um so you know that's that's one problem that you're posing to your opponent never mind all of the crap with the flies just being super aggressive and yeah i know i i like it quite a bit um it's one that like i didn't really take time to read it because i was doing mortal stuff sure um until i started trying to find a way to make hortriculous slimmix work and i was like oh this is legit so all right so what i want to talk about next is i so i think the point is these sub factions are good if you're if you're using units they're going to be aligned with them and by the way one of my points of sub factions i do think these are sub factions done right and this is one of the things we've talked about in previous shows sub factions are good when they when they're like largely somewhat dictating unit yes choice right uh this is the one that's good with plague drones and most of its abilities but not all are fairly plague drone focused or or whatever right um seraphon did this well where it's like okay you can you know this is the one where that's good with your monster people and this is the one for sure with your your skinky dudes and and so on and so forth right okay cool so if we're going to add sub factions to stuff please make them like that and not just a bunch of like here's raw power for your entire army no matter how you build it go ahead because then inevitably one's just going to come out better you want to get gristle goers that's how you get gristle goers okay uh so all right what do we what do we see as the this army has a lot of like as we've said versatility and things it's good at what do you both see as the challenges to the to this army like why what's keeping it from being very successful that's what i'm trying to ask here okay what are its what are its natural predators on the table what are the situations it's not going to do well with that kind of stuff because we've we've talked about how it has a lot of capabilities and i do believe it does and i do believe it's primed for success but what's holding it back what's your what's your situations that are going to be tough tom what do you think uh i gotta think on this one just a hot second sure sure well let me let me pose some let me pose some potential options to to both of you i got one okay uh so i was going to say range stuff because across all of the options that uh we have there's not a lot of shooting um and and shooting for doing the exact thing that we were talking about earlier as far as like spot removal of heroes and stuff like that um i find to be really really difficult um yeah that's fair because i mean outside of a few of the demon type units that we've mentioned that have those built in negatives you know a lot of this stuff can be very susceptible to just to just getting shooting pumped into it right yeah no i'm with that and and you're right things like lord of lights or even your lord of afflictions or whatever like those guys can can be picked out with shooting especially depending on the shooting fairly straightforwardly so i'm with that i think that it's they have an interesting match up and i think it's very list dependent right like what list you have how fast is your stuff how how well is your opponent at picking out the weak spots with their shooting and hitting the right things you know all that kind of stuff what does a terrain look like right like all of that super duper matters uh yeah okay tom what about you what are your thoughts anything that you can see as a sort of thing holding this back i think that it's going to struggle with um like in the new world the new world order i think that it's going to struggle with um uh magic like yes like magic is just not something that it can really buff and so magic in for this army is going to become very unreliable sure yeah um and so that's just um that's just the reality like that's the new world that we're in yep yep it's true they have a lot of wounds and they have some mortal wound protection but you are still afraid of somebody like croak just celestial dominance and sing because you are cast you're suffering the three mortals right just like boom boom boom boom all over the place so it can it can still be you might have ways to mute its effect but it's still happening it's still going to be very dangerous yep um one thing i would say uh in sorry was there any more things on magic before i know now like yeah it just it's going to struggle in that in those spaces for sure uh one thing for me is like i as i have tried talking to people about magikin one thing i bump up a two up against is there's a there can be a learning curve for model placement like for example like you know for a turn or two all of your fat boys are running very very fast but if you don't put them in the right place the second they're out of the tree range or out of range of some hero that lets them do stuff or the wheel turns they move very very slow and so you need to get where you need to go immediately um and that's that's just something you have to understand the missions you have to understand your opponent about how they're going to deploy things that kind of stuff so it can it can be hard um for newer folks because if you you know for example i played a game against jack at reeling ones we were just having a friendly game and i threw a big block of blight lords like i do pinning them down in his deployment but i threw him at the wrong people and that was a problem because then he weaseled right out of them and so yeah yeah i don't know it was a big deal but like that kind of stuff costs you the game gotcha Dave blow his little ocarna of time and and just you know ride the winds aetheric away or something on her or whatever no he wasn't doing the shoot cast he was doing his corn um and basically i i put a unit of two blight lords into his main damage dealers instead of the unit of four which i should have got um and then scar brand just did 32 mortal wounds and delivered a 10 man you know like so he does that occasionally and it was one of those things where you're just like i'm not even mad i'm actually impressed this is yeah sure sure absolutely uh yeah scar brand's a fun guy it's great when he gets uh incandescent you just watch him go yeah um which by the way worst choice they ever made was removing the names of rage levels from the reformatted scar brand war scroll because you know it used to be like angry ferocious you know blah blah blah whatever down to incandescent which is like my favorite description of somebody who's so mad they're just glowing yeah i would have accepted over 9 000 as well and that's about it there's only two options so uh it mistakes gw made with corn that is one of them there you go okay uh no fantastic uh here's so i have i have a one to propose i'm interested for both of your thoughts okay it's not something that's super duper in the matter right now okay but i could see it being around high armor like and when i say high armor i don't mean like a bunch of dudes on four ups saves right i mean like high armor being like people who across their army can achieve a lot of like three ups re-rolling ones or two ups or stuff like that right um there aren't a huge amount of these armies out there but do you think that that still poses a problem because a lot of your hammers are like no rend or rend egg one maybe you have some ability to kind of you know splash around a little bit of mortal wounds but you'd have to you have to really lean into that build yeah if you lean into it you can do all the more wounds but yeah that's what you're saying the average player doesn't do that um i don't know that that's actually a predator you would run into well i guess interesting to me my my clarifying question for you is like so an opponent's army who is you know trying hard or dedicated to doing the three up re-rolling ones or even you know two up in like archon's case or something crazy like that you can do that um are are though are they also still killy because then it comes down to like if i get to that objective first yeah i'm just gonna sit there and you can because if you're not killy it's just two fat dudes you know doing sumo and ramming into each other yeah yeah no that's fair that's absolutely fair yeah i mean the uh you're right i mean outside of archon who's another interesting choice by the way he is yes he is a normal march guy we didn't talk about him but he is super interesting in this army uh i mean archon you're absolutely right can be on a two up re-rolling ones and pretty easily and uh in in various and sundry different ways there's actually many different ways to achieve that for him a shockingly high number of ways to achieve that for him uh you know he's obviously still super killy but he's also like 800 points right oh yeah oh yeah so okay fair is fair i suppose right uh yeah i don't know how many like now that there's no uh petrified elite i suppose like morispertorians would be probably what i'm describing right because they can still achieve a high re-rollable save like yeah obr morispertorians i think are are a fairly natural counter to you or to nergal what about uh sequiturs can they energize their shields or something like that yeah but just to uh like a four up re-rollable oh okay i thought it was better than that well they could go three up with the lantern but sure they get like they can get lantern buffed right sure so yes i mean like sekis can go three up re-rollable but sekis have other i guess i mean you know i i'm not sure what to think of stormcast right now in general with all their points drops and stuff like i haven't reformulated my opinion of exactly what to think about them because they're they're something that could just like suddenly roar back to life there's so many people with stormcast armies they could just show back up in a heartbeat and be everywhere yeah yeah uh so yeah i don't know but sure yeah something like sekis imagine you can build a good army with sekis somewhere in there right who are going three up shield tilt uh re-rolling or yeah like you know morispertorians you can go three up re-rolling the the difference with morispertorians is they you know are still fairly fairly damaging you know they don't have like the old pe level of or pet you know the petrax elite level of like neg2rend but they can still get the job done right right uh so that that feels like a somewhat natural counter yeah i don't know i mean i look at something like zinch the the great enemy of nergal sure uh incorrect by the way uh i hate how they aligned with the chaos gods they are completely mismatched uh it it should be exactly the opposite of what it is like nergal should oppose lanesh and zinch should oppose corn those are the actual two philosophical showdowns i've said this on the show before they're never going to change it because now it just is what it is and it's like x years of history but it's stupid and i don't like it uh and i'll die on this hill uh but anyway uh like a lot of zinch armies i think get rolled over just just bowled over by nergal because they want to sit there in castle and like you will like the low armor stuff of plowing through pink's units now oh yes things like that absolutely like yeah well i'll fight all your dudes on six ups like i'm gonna vaporize that unit just like it is gonna cease existing and once i touch all your flamers and your lord of change like anything i get my hands on i'm just gonna slap it around right and you'll be in their face so fast yep right uh so to me like i think actually in the in the great showdown of uh the turkey versus uh the grandfather grandfather's coming out ahead in this particular world i agree but i think it would be a incredibly fun game sure it would be really i imagine the battlefield would smell awful just awful between how stinky nergal probably normally is and then all of it getting roasted by pink and blue uh warp fire warp flames or whatever that is going to be a that is going to be an unfortunate aroma that wafts off of that battlefield tell you what uh all right cool well let's close out here and uh i want to talk about things that we would want to see improved it's not out of the question that at some point here we'll get a new nergal book right they were one of the early ones pre 2.0 it could happen so what are the things we would love to see improved okay like what are the units that let us down or or the synergies that are too tightly construed or options that we wish we had you know you can construe this however you want there's lots of different ways that books can change obviously right for sure so dug any any thoughts on what you'd love to see in in the next in the next turn of the of the wheel of uh of nergal here uh for me personally i would love a either an artifact commandability however you want to put it in there but some thing that allows me to put the tree down after sides have been chosen okay um because it's just one level of control over a resource that frankly you've already paid for like monetarily in real life um but it's interesting because there's ways to obviously generate new trees horticulate slimes can poop one out every turn on top of summoning them like there's all kinds of crazy stuff but there's nowhere to just be like hey you know that cool toy about hey you can do it everyone with it because like well what are you talking about yeah um that would be my pick my number one all right that's good that's a good pick tom what's your pick summoning make it functional what okay sorry go on um i like i hate like the the conditional variable i would agree with that like just like stop it you need the fact that you need like a little abacus at the end of the turn it's like okay i do have this territory and i'm alone here in d3 for this and there's a tree and then another tree and you're just like with that that sort of thing is that what you're hating yes or like like change it so that like i don't know like i hate the attention of like having to either summon trees or summon models yeah like it feels like it's one of the only summoning mechanics where you're penalized for like how do i want to say this like you can't build to ramp in that army right for summoning like where like in zinch you can build by getting more spellcasters sure corn you can build by like making more units that die easily sure there's really a little bit of pain on msu yes yeah no i agree with that it's uh i first thought i were gonna say like the um like the points cost for the units was wrong i was like i don't know man i think it's pretty great but like no you're right the the actual wordage and verbiage for how you accrue your resource is like this is annoying like when you compare it like look at the comparative value of that summoning and what you're getting for what point values yeah like how many how many average points you're going to generate in nervel in a game and it makes me like not even want to bring real demons to the game like it makes me want to just bring treats sure because i just know that i like i'm never going to generate enough points to actually put real units so sure it's just it's like it feels so lackluster compared to every other summoning in the game sure i mean at most you probably bring i would imagine that a lot of times in most games what is summoned is one of two things okay again not being a nergal player this is my read of it from watching people and playing as nergal in tournaments these are the two things that get summoned against me additional trees or 10 and small packs of plague barriers to hold points that's it yeah yeah and like it just if that's their vision that's fine but it's it's like as a like when i when i look at the table and i look at the other like options like i look at and i'm like okay well if one large part of my faction of my allegiance abilities i have my wheel and i have summoning if summoning is junk and i can't manipulate the wheel easily enough with spells because casting we talked about this right then like why am i doing this over slaves to darkness sure like why don't i just do nergal slaves to darkness and in fact i basically sold all of my nergal stuff that is not slave you're welcome it's not because of this because when i look at it i go why would i do demons why or why would i even do mixed with like i'm sad i can't use my blight kings now because they're really good and they're really well priced but at the end of the day it's just it they're subpar it because of the allegiance abilities and it's particularly the summoning mechanic now it's like summoned units counted towards your corruption you know like maybe you just gain one point for every summoned unit in your corruption tally right and so then like the trees which can generate like a d3 or whatever like uh you know like you're getting less but you're actually getting usable troops maybe and then you can still ramp that way like i don't know i just like as it is the summoning mechanic is completely lackluster so question do you feel like it's because they have like a foot on each side of the fence like here's the wheel as an overarching mechanic and then here's the summoning as an overarching mechanic and the two just don't like they're not there's no way to commit to either of them in a very meaningful way is that what you mean right right like there's no like none of like i don't want to say none of their mechanics but like very like you have to go very narrow right now to engage their mechanics so either you have to take your general and take this once per game ability or you have to take a particulars and get an extra tree or but like there's no real way to like meaningfully yeah and you're generally taking taxi stuff into that manipulation it's all tax it's all tax i have a thought i have a question um what if the the means from which you accrue contagion points was instead of it's the number of wounds you inflict or have been inflicted on within so much of a distance of a tree because in that way you don't really care where the tree goes because either going to launch you forward or it's going to be near the enemy to collect points but on the flip side you know because the problem is i still love the idea of the trees and being rewarded for bringing more on because i like the idea of like nergal rewards those who bring the garden to the realms so i want it to be something like that but at the same time good can i ask a question yeah how would how would their game change if at the beginning of your hero phase every turn you just put a tree on the table very minimally exactly that's what that is exactly my point if you got a free tree literally every turn does it really do yeah yeah like it does like but instead not only do you not get a free tree every turn you have to pay a cost to get that um and so like let's just say that you get a free tree every turn so you you are bringing the the very presence of the nergal army brings trees okay sure and then what that allows you to do is to is to position your army in such a way that you can maximize your points if you want to to bring on more corruption by like locating yourself near trees away from you know enemy droops and stuff like that you know and interesting they could have an anti corn climb on their summoning points so what i mean by that is corn dumps everything if they do anything right right they everything everything empties if they summon anything one of the things that could be interesting with nergal is like imagine if it didn't dump okay right but was capped at hard at like one summoned thing per turn imagine there's some kind of randomness to how you accrue the point still let's let's assume it's less complicated and you tend to average about seven around with some kind of swinginess okay yeah sometimes it's five sometimes it's nine but it averages to seven every time you hit a multiple of seven on the chart a new tree grows okay so when you get seven fourteen twenty one and twenty eight a new tree grows so you're kind like again unless you unless the random thing doesn't break with you you will often end up with let's say three out of the four turns getting a tree automatically right and then you still can spend your points to summon but you don't dump them they just keep sort of building right think of them scaling almost like big wa points okay right you just represent the corruption but you have this hard thing if you just get to bring a thing like when you get one thing a new tree appears and you can pick one of these units to be summoned when you hit fourteen a tree appears and you get to pick one of these units to appear right I like that when you hit twenty one you get a new tree and you get to pick you know and you can pick like at this level or lower right yep yep and we hit twenty eight I love that too and then that and that speaks to this like growing corruption right the spread of corruption yeah yeah that feels like the the summoning mechanic they should have in my mind right it's still not locked in it's not automatic you're not automatically getting four summons in a game you're not automatically getting four trees in a game right there's still some swing to it you want it to be somewhat unpredictable because this is a dice game right but that still means that meaningfully you will actually be able to know you'll be able to use it in the game just like by the by when I play Sinesh right I can look at my own heroes and total up the wounds that I've got exactly a minus one wound per hero and go well I'm going to get at least this right assuming no one's ends up in like the sort of archaon or something like I'm getting at least this right so in the same way that corn can like count up their number of units that they have plus the enemy number of units and go okay that's like I'm gonna get some number of that right okay so yeah right on I think that feels I agree that feels good to me all right I have a thing that I'd like I think it's it's what we'd all like like and that's make the maggot lords like usable in some way find something to do with them so yeah if we're picking out like I want a non-named character of that size yeah give me a generic maggot lord step exactly yeah yep absolutely let one of them be generic right make a generic hero like that like you can build him however you want and he has like weapon options and stuff and then make the special character maggot lords like actually useful for their points like it's a joke right now you would compare like any of those maggot lords to like the light of authoritarian who isn't even a hero that often gets taken in lrl armies and it's like he would he would blow through you could line up the three of them or have all three of them probably attack him at once and he would probably win and they're all more expensive than him okay that's problematic right like uh and I don't want to use that guy as like the the benchmark but you can pick anything in that range they just they're not delivering either the utility or the offense or the defense of what that level of heroes should be doing and I get it those kind of mid-range heroes can be tough you know that like 200 or 300 but we can do better than this we can do better than this like and I just I love those models they're they are what pulled me into nergal they're amazing like they are actually legit amazing models and I get the hell out but they're amazing I have one painted I want to do all three give me a reason to do all three yeah yeah yeah right on uh I'm gonna spin right into another one because I've got another idea that the daisy changed onto my previous idea I have one more as well go for it okay nergal has a magic problem okay okay in that casting their spells is often tough because they have a lot of sort of high ish you know uh spells like high ish target number spells okay here's what I don't want I don't want nergal to just have a bunch of built-in casting bonuses sure okay like that's just what everybody runs to like this is just this arms race everybody always does this I want they have double casters I want double casters they have huge bonuses I want huge bonuses okay and and all we're doing is just escalating escalating escalating up so now the next super caster that comes out once everybody's a double caster and everybody's got built-in plus one or two now that now that super caster comes out and they have to roll they just automatically get 14s they've got to be better than teclas and they can cast 16 spells around and it's like okay you know maybe we just wheel us back a little bit so like thematically instead let me let me propose this to you uh as the as the corruption spreads because as I like I'm just gonna build on my previous mechanic and assume that that exists okay no as the corruption spreads when you hit those watermarks of like 7 14 21 and 28 right then certain magic oriented things happen to your army as it gets easier for your casters to summon the magic of nergal as they're literally creating the garden of nergal around themselves right so maybe at like at seven somebody gets to cast an extra spell or something at 14 all your casters get plus one to cast at you know whatever you you know what I'm saying like we could figure out exactly the progression right but that gets built into the more corruption that's around you the better your people are at making more corrupt magic enter the world right you're you are forming a connection to nergal's garden that's what you said right you're bringing the literally the the realm of chaos into the mortal realms when you do that that's what nergal's doing it should make sense that their summoning nergal's magic would get easier right I mean I I would even settle for like what the scaven have of just plus one to cast if you're near a tree like that that makes equally as much sense and is also really really simple I don't know why that dude next to a hole gets better at magic and me next to like a gateway to hell doesn't because we have special scaven special holes you can quote me on that all right uh so uh no I yeah I agree that's that would be fine too you're right yours is much simpler but yeah sure no no no I like yours more because I actually I didn't realize it until I read the big wall in the iron jaws book that like having these things are crewing in the background is so nergly where things are amplifying because whether or not you killed a nergal army I'm talking a little bit more like narratively here like the infection has arrived here like right even if you stop it here it's here and so you can have it go escalate and it makes sense um yeah that's awesome I like it yes make them do something with magic for sure I dig that all right you said you had one more go ahead yeah my last ones real quick is just uh if they're gonna rewrite the battle tone like just just add some friendly and enemy stuff because the nergal mirror match is the saddest wet pool noodle fight that's ever been yeah um if you don't know basically yeah all the things just say like you know if it's a nergal unit instead you heal instead of take damage but if you're fighting in the mirror match okay yeah all your special abilities don't trigger anymore nobody's taking all the extra damage you're just healing the enemy army and they're healing you it's like everyone's doing the the good game butt slap as a bunch of light kings just smack each other in the face yeah yeah yeah absolutely no I'm with that it's funny too because that's such a legacy thing from like it is well yeah it's a great way to put it that's just kind of stuck around it's it's a funny thing too because so many of those legacy things are gone like let me give an easy example a bunch of uh nergal and scaven stuff that was more poisonous flavored okay at various points in worm or fantasy history didn't affect undead right right because you can't poison undead they're just they're dead they're bones they can't or or dead or whatever right that all that all got rightly so put in the ash bin of history okay because yeah who cares like nergal's toxins are so virulent that they work even on the undead like I'm down with that you know what I'm saying uh so but this weird thing of like nergal not affecting nergal is one of these few legacy things that is just like burrowed in and stuck around and you're right it just makes the mirror match terrible so yeah I'm with that like it just it just feels like it doesn't need to be there right like it could just you could just write the word friendly in front of all that and it would be fine there you go unsolved like yep just control f yeah exactly yes yeah replace all okay yeah tom any other any other final items you want to see anything else you want to you want to touch on we can sit here in silence for two more hours if you just need a break I'm trying to think through like is anything really lacking um and I don't think so like uh I um no I mean I think that it's good I I wish there was a little bit more integration I think with beast of chaos sure beyond the battalion they got the ability to pull them in beyond just that battalion yeah yeah like I don't know I need like I just um yeah I think that that would be the one thing that I I would love to see more of is like to actually have like pesticore or some like some space to play in there I don't know yeah that's fair I know I've got one final thing and then we'll call it a night which is just this um whenever you rewrite the war scrolls for the spoilpox scrivener and slobby bile piper and you know those people um could we make them not like hot chinatown garbage please oh yeah I was just gonna say start over just don't yeah just literally trash it and start over because they don't need to be competing with low tan no they're like the coolest models stop the low tan they have they have hardcore low tan syndrome if you're one of the coolest models that that that games workshop has released in the past 10 years and yet there's no amount of points that would make you worth including an army you might have low tan syndrome see your doctor he would be what's effective to get a free slobby bile piper every turn then a free tree that's not good it's not good right absolutely you'd be like no no no give me the tree I just wanted the tree oh yes it's so true and and yet like these dudes are just obviously adorable amazing models that should be showing up in armies so for the love of all things holy when you make an amazing model like the Scrivener or that guy and he's a single hero with like five wounds I'm okay if you make him pretty cool and pretty good because he's never gonna be that much of a problem stop making 25 year old salamander sculpts yes and marauders from the 1990s be the best things in the book please and thank you I would appreciate that we all would uh yes so there you go yeah well I love I love when people complain like oh GW just made those units rules good to sell models you know like man they should do that for a lot of other stuff too a counterpoint slobby bile piper can I add one more sure man uh give me a reason to take nerflings sure like you know these worms yeah yeah yeah like yeah but like I like I just love the models like who doesn't who doesn't love nerglings yeah okay um even I like nerglings I would I I would paint a nerglings I love nerglings I would put nerglings on my death guard base death guard the only good form of nergal there you go because they lock all their grossness inside safe armor continue well that's my point like imagine imagine like new nerglings units yeah yeah I agree um I'm in I'm in like everybody knows nerglings are so popular you've written whole articles just touting your sweet nerglings sculpts because you know how much we all love nerglings like you you know this man just like again I don't it's not like I want to see rules and power correlate on some kind of one-to-one ratio to the sweetness of models but I would like to see them like be loosely adjacent to each other like you know where I don't feel like I'm making a horrible choice for taking this thing yeah we've moved beyond swarps like that's not a thing anymore yeah yeah like like why can't we have a true nerbling unit like a brimstone horrors style nerbling unit you could even make a more like spirit host and maybe that'd make them on the edge of playable I'd be down for that one but yeah there's a version of nerglings that are more like spirit hosts that are playable well it's interesting because they have like the the scaffolding to be good but the internal balance there for nerglings is not great so like for example they have a whole hero morbid ex twice born is like super cool and everything helps demons and they're it's all right there for it it's just like but they just don't work and they just need help yeah I totally agree with that that's a good point yeah yeah super terrible super fair tom uh yeah like the the uh nerglings being super cool I am very very very much down or or or let me double down double down into seeing coach jay makes worms great yes makes worms great put it on a 160 ml base oh make them really big and give them a ton of wounds yeah yeah give it give them I put them on a 160 ml base make them immune to damage and um I do something like that just do something completely over the top like remember the croaks old rule like if you don't do all of the wounds to them yeah they just regenerates all of it yeah okay there you go it's a 30 wound unit and if you don't do all the wounds to it it heals back up at the end sure you could go a little more reasonable you could put them on like a 100 ml base or 130 ml round or something no no I don't want them to literally be like like part of the field they are a terrain piece worth of nerf I understand that's you might be a bit too far there but I love your enthusiasm yeah I was thinking like the rat endless spell from scaven where it's just the horde of little dudes like yeah I'm just I'm tired of the like the low like because the problem is is that if they sit in that low model count like world of swarms right then they have they inherit all those problems yeah so if they're gonna inherit those problems let's get rid of that like the moving the individual bases and just turn them into a cloud sure right and do their own thing right like divorce out of all the multi rule stuff and just do a huge like swarms of these large bases yeah let's do it like let me put 10 160 ml nurgling swarm bases on the table I don't think that actually fits on the table but nonetheless I don't care I want to do that and more necks in the middle done I don't know a higher note to end on than that all right well Doug thank you very much buddy I appreciate you being around and talking nergal with us this was fantastic yeah yeah thank you guys so much for having me I I know that my information is probably not the best because I'm not the best nergal player but I'm enthusiastic well that's what we want because it's not just that I wanted to talk about this from all over the place right and just what's interesting and what has it's not like we're who know first of all who knows what's good in the modern world right now anyways nobody we're not playing so you know I'm saying try stuff that's what I'm saying try stuff and have fun there's we've talked about a lot of different things I think have got potential all right for all of you out there who are watching thank you so much really appreciate it don't forget to move your mouse over just about a couple inches and click that little like button clicking like helps other people find this video it helps other people find grandfather nergal if you're a fan and you watch us because you like it help bring others into the great grandfather's embrace and by clicking the like button but at any rate thank you very much for watching we very much appreciate it and as always we'll see you next wednesday